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View Full Version : Why Have the Traitor Primarchs Been Rewarded?



Icarus
11-08-2006, 01:46
This is something that really irks me about the otherwise pretty good fluff about the Heresy and the Chaos Legions. The Traitor Primarchs which are still alive have become Super Daemon Princes, being basically the most powerful physical beings in the galaxy . What does not make sense to me is that they have also all been given their own daemon worlds in the Eye of Terror which are twisted entirely to their own desires, where they now sit around for millenia enjoying themselves or in some cases moping around.

This just doesn't seem to make sense. Despite causing a lot of death and destruction, the Heresy was a failure. The Chaos Gods did not achieve their aims, and subsequent battles after the Heresy seem to have been equally fruitless. So why, given the Chaos Gods noted displeasure towards failure, have these Primarchs been given the gold star treatment? If the Chaos Gods are angry enough to blow up Caliban because their plans went wrong, why are they so pleased with their failures of Primarchs?

It also doesn't make a lot of sense not to use the most potent weapons in their arsenal. A Daemon Primarch could turn the whole course of a Black Crusade with the amount of destruction they could cause, but no, they're back on their little planets having fun. The only one who has actually done anything of note since the Heresy years is Angron's attack on Armageddon, and even then he got blasted back to the warp by the Grey Knights.

Of course I can understand why GW may not want to have Primarchs in the TT game itself, but I don't think that justifies a complete backseat in the fluff. There could still be some references to their activites. Anything would be better than the sitting-on-a-fun-planet routine.

Melchiah
11-08-2006, 01:57
Its not sappose to make sense. The road to damnation is quick as are the rewards, but you lose your soul. While the path to rightiousness is hard and full of strife. Yet you retan your soul and stay in the emperor's light and grace.

Kandarin
11-08-2006, 02:02
Was it a failure? Or was deposing the Emperor and putting a champion of Chaos Ascendant on the throne only one possible victory? Remember, the Chaos Gods believe that they are right and the Emperor is wrong; they believe that his plans, if put into motion, will fail mankind, who'd be better off worshipping them. So, perhaps they believe that allowing the Emperor's plans to go into motion, with as many setbacks as possible, of course, will ultimately drive humanity into their arms.

devolutionary
11-08-2006, 02:07
The Death of the Emperor, breaking of the Adeptus Astartes, the stagnation of the Imperium at the hands of their own government... I dunno, it seems pretty effective to me. If Chaos controlled the universe, the only logical thing for it to do next is to turn in on itself.

I don't think that saying the Primarchs were rewarded with daemon worlds is accurate either. They could have just as easily taken one over for themselves.

nurgleman
11-08-2006, 02:19
Maybe, because if they were treated horribly they and their legions would crawl back to the emperor to try and redeem themselves or just do a lot of damage to the forces of chaos in revenge.

devolutionary
11-08-2006, 02:22
Also a good point. These days, the Chaos Space Marines control the cultists, and the sheer weight of numbers they can bring to bear, combined with their Daemon binding antics, could devastate Chaos dramatically. Hell, that could even save the Imperium.

Daemonslave
11-08-2006, 02:33
Some fluff would have you believe that upon the Emperors physical death He would become a new god, the Star Child, who could possibly realistically challenge the gods of Chaos. If this is true, then perhaps the Heresy was a total success. The mortal Emperor no longer leads the Imperium on the conquest of the galaxy (in fact without him it has stagnated), and yet he cannot ascend either. He is now a rotting corpse whose sole purpose is to act as a lighthouse (and to stop daemons in the webway if you believe Sabretooth fluff).

ryng_sting
11-08-2006, 12:25
Angron, Mortarion, Magnus, Fulgrim (and possibly Lorgar) were all elevated to daemonhood before the Siege of Terra. With Horus, Alpharious and Night Haunter dead that only leaves Perturabo, who earned his daemonhood after the Iron Cage incident.

Chaos's rationale is simple: keeping the remaining primarchs alive and on your side is better than not having them.

The webway portal under the Golden Throne was sealed with the Emperor's ascension; as long as he is there it can not be re-opened.

Two reasons why the primarchs won't return: Power. It takes an enormous amount of power to summon such a powerful servant of Chaos, and more still to sustain their presence. Given the rarity of Greater Daemon appearances, the Chaos Primarchs' lack of activity is far from surprising. (Think of Angron midway through the 1st War for Armageddon.)

Btw, Magnus the Red returned as well. He led the Battle of the Fang.

Helicon_One
11-08-2006, 13:19
The failing of the Heresy was arguably on the part of Horus for dropping the shields on his barge, not on the other Traitors.

Tim

Lord Barker
11-08-2006, 14:58
The failing of the Heresy was arguably on the part of Horus for dropping the shields on his barge, not on the other Traitors.

Tim


Did he not drop the shileds as a desperate act in a very nearly lost battle?
Two loyal legions were en route and the defenders were holding the traitors, the traitor Primarches had failed.

heretics bane
11-08-2006, 15:17
Its not sappose to make sense. The road to damnation is quick as are the rewards, but you lose your soul. While the path to rightiousness is hard and full of strife. Yet you retan your soul and stay in the emperor's light and grace.
and you dont get a inqusitors bullet in the head,but i think there more afraid of the grey knights as they have the know how to turn them into shreds

Iuris
11-08-2006, 16:23
Sigh. One of the few things that makes sense, but in the 40k Universe, it seems wrong: NOT executing experienced officers because of falilure, especially if you don't have replacements for them...

Better a general that has lost some than an inexperienced lieutenant fresh out of officer school...

EarthScorpion
11-08-2006, 16:53
Two loyal legions were en route and the defenders were holding the traitors, the traitor Primarches had failed.

Two loyalist legions? Some people would disagree with that...

Anyway, deamonhood seems to instil a certain sense of complacency upon the recipient. It is a peculiar point that, although some spend many thousands of years and much effort, striving ceaselessly to acend in the favour of the Dark Gods to acend to the peaks of Deamonhood, once they are there they do very little, perhaps engaging in some mild corruption.

Come to think of it, they share that in common with many political parties...

Commander Ozae
11-08-2006, 17:09
Also, time is distorted in the Eye of Terror so whereas to the Imperium 10,000 years might have passed in the Eye maybe only a few hundred or something like that. The Primarchs have their own plots as the the Gods of Chaos so eventually they will come out.

BodhiTree
11-08-2006, 17:53
Large Daemons seem to remind me of Marine Dreadnoughts, meaning that they're summoned/awoken only in times of need. Chaos Dreadnoughts on the other hand, are just insane, and I don't think they get to rest like Daemons and loyalist Dreadnoughts. I could be wrong, of course. ;) I also thought that summoning a particularly awesome Daemon required the sacrifice of someone extremely important, or an entire world, or maybe even an entire solar system.

Helicon_One
11-08-2006, 18:08
Did he not drop the shileds as a desperate act in a very nearly lost battle?
Completely the opposite, as far as I know - the Loyalists were being hammered, Horus had orbital supremacy and could have sat and pounded Terra flat at his leisure, at least that's the account given in the CSM codex.


Two loyal legions were en route and the defenders were holding the traitors, the traitor Primarches had failed.
One and a half loyal legions anyway - and the Space Wolves were one of the smaller Legions too.

Tim

BrainFireBob
11-08-2006, 18:09
Daemons need a vast amount of warp energy to sustain themselves.

More than they can supply on their own.

So, large sacrifices can release it- and also draw support from the Chaos gods, and warp storms can supply it.

The more powerful the daemon, the more power it takes to sustain them.

When they possess a psyker, it is the psyker's own energy they feed on, I think- or maybe they vampirize the psyker's special warp connection.

Here's a question: Did Magnus' own prodigious psyker gift allow him to sustain himself as a daemon prince out of the Eye?

BrainFireBob
11-08-2006, 18:11
Completely the opposite, as far as I know - the Loyalists were being hammered, Horus had orbital supremacy and could have sat and pounded Terra flat at his leisure, at least that's the account given in the CSM codex.


One and a half loyal legions anyway - and the Space Wolves were one of the smaller Legions too.

Tim

I always understood their threat was less because of their numbers of Marines for the ground battle, but rather because of their fleet elements- after the exhaustive fleet battle, those ships- with Marine boarding parties- could have swung orbital/air superiority back to the loyalists. On the ground, this would have free the WS and their supporting armored company.

AFTER, the Wolves and Angels could land.

Daemonslave
11-08-2006, 18:19
According to Sabretooth fluff :rolleyes: it was the because the Ultramarines were only hours away. Apparently the Space Wolves would have only been an annoyance!

Karhedron
11-08-2006, 20:37
The fluff on this has always swung back and forth. The most detailed description of the Seige of Terra was back in WD in the early days of 2nd edition (circa WD 165) when they could quite happily devote half a dozen pages to good fluff. ;) In that telling, the seige had turned into battle of attrition. Chaos was winning but it was a slow process. The SWs and DAs were only the first reinforcements on their way. Basically Horus needed to kill the Emperor to win and the longer it took, the more reinforcments would rush to Terra and the harder that would be to accomplish. So he took a gamble and gave the Emperor a chance to come to him since he believed that he could kill him face-to-face. And he was very nearly right.

Alpharius
11-08-2006, 20:49
And then Sabretooth went an "pissed in the pool", so now who knows what's what...

ryng_sting
12-08-2006, 10:49
Daemons need a vast amount of warp energy to sustain themselves.

More than they can supply on their own.So, large sacrifices can release it- and also draw support from the Chaos gods, and warp storms can supply it. The more powerful the daemon, the more power it takes to sustain them. When they possess a psyker, it is the psyker's own energy they feed on, I think- or maybe they vampirize the psyker's special warp connection.

Here's a question: Did Magnus' own prodigious psyker gift allow him to sustain himself as a daemon prince out of the Eye?

Safest assumption.

Current fluff has Horus receive the dreaded news thusly: the messenger told him for certain the Space Wolves were just hours away, and the Ultramarines; the Dark Angels would arrive after. It does make more sense than before. Although the DAs were at full strength, the SWs - never a very large legion - were under-stength after Alpharius's space attack. Alone, the two never posed a major threat but add the Ultramarines to the mix, however, have them arrive first, and then it becomes plausible. Horus knew he had to slay the Emperor before reinforcements arrived: the gamble failed.

Additional: The Emperor sensed the reinforcements' imminent arrival before Horus did.