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etham
11-08-2006, 15:02
Ok, I had to get this off my chest: As I'm sure several of you have noticed, people buy lots of bitz on ebay. This is great. I'm glad that this is possible.

BUT!

I'm so tired of seeing people bid WAY more than the bitz are worth. This is artificially driving up the cost of GW merchandice. You know that the people who price this stuff out are watching the ebay traffic to find out what they can get for things so they can advise GW when to raise prices (like three weeks ago).

For instance, I saw a carnosaur go for $25 plus shipping. You can get the bitz on the Games Workshop site for $16 plus shipping (Free shipping if you order from the store).

I saw 5 terminator legs go for $25 plus shipping. The sprue cost $30 and you get the whole body, not just the legs. You could buy the sprue, clip the parts you need and sell the rest on ebay and probably make a proffit.

My point is that you really ought to research the value of the parts before you bid. NEVER bid more than you would pay for the items new from GW.

If you don't know how to do this, it's easy. Go to the GW Store, click on a model, and underneath you'll see a wrench/spanner icon. Click that and you'll get a list of the bitz in the kit and the price for each. Alternately you can buy the bitz catalog and price guide and research at your leisure any time.

PLEASE SHOP SMARTLY. Maybe if we all do this we can force the price of GW stuff down and get bigger and better armies.

SepulchreKnight
11-08-2006, 15:07
I agree completely.

Parts I seem to look for generally sell in lots of 1 for way too much. If they do sell in a squad lot of 10, they often go for way over retail as you said.:wtf:

DeathMasterSnikch
11-08-2006, 15:09
Down? No, to stay around the same? Maybe...

I doubt ebay makes much difference in GW prices.

TheWarSmith
11-08-2006, 15:17
I'm pretty sure he's only speaking of the ebay economy. Microeconomies such as ebay are very volitile and sensitive(if you've ever played an MMO, you'll know this). Since single buyers/sellers don't have large samples to base decisions on, it's based off of only a few, so slight alterations can lead to big changes up or down.

Ebay prices will never have direct affects on GW pricing.

I agree though, i see people selling bits(mainly sprue bits) for WAY more than they're worth. I suppose people overpay cause lots of people don't think about buying sprue bits from GW, only the main box.

batai
11-08-2006, 15:24
I can't speak about buying bitz on ebay but i've bought entire armies on ebay and i've always gotten a great deal.

I always end up paying less than retail for the army itself and as a bonus its already assembled and painted (which i have no time for anymore).

etham
11-08-2006, 15:43
Generally the more pieces in the lot the better deal you will get.

But I do feel that ebay will eventually have an effect on the price of new GW items. It can't stay in a vacuum forever. If demand is high and the price on eBay is used as an indicator of demand, then they can't help but be influenced by that.

Although, you know it is illegal to buy kits and part them out for resale on ebay. The people doing that could get sued if GW thought it was in their interest.

ThousandPlateaus
11-08-2006, 15:52
This should probably be in the Other GW discussion thread, but I agree with the sentiment.

What puzzles me is the amount of money people spend on all GW products on ebay - sure, it's good to save a bit of money, but is it really worth just saving a pound, or sometimes much less...

I think the only real impact that Ebay should have on GW is that it should drive down mail order postage charges - £4 flat rate is way too much for 7 working day business post... This'll never happen, though...

Ohman
11-08-2006, 16:17
Although, you know it is illegal to buy kits and part them out for resale on ebay. The people doing that could get sued if GW thought it was in their interest.

Care to explain this a bit? How is it illegal?

etham
11-08-2006, 16:34
when an item is sold for retail in a package, say, like a box of sodas in cans or miniatures in a box, the items within that box are to be sold withing that box as a set. Usually you see the box labeled as "Not for individual sale" or "Not for resale" or something similar, but the box does not have to have that label to be protected by this law.

If you are "caught" by the company that owns the sale and copyrights for the object, they can file suit. Usually this is not worth the cost as the return is low or the damage is slight. It is the responsibility of the company to take you to task. You won't see the cops coming after you. It's basically the same laws that make MP3 trading illegal.

Keep in mind that my understanding of these laws is limited to the United States.

I think it might also be in violation of certain internet trade laws and also certain eBay policies. Also, this really aplies to vendors and not really to hobbyists. It al depends on the interpretation of the law, but if you are buying the items solely for the purpose of redistribution you are breaking the law.

t-tauri
11-08-2006, 16:59
I don't think this is true as regards miniatures. Some things like soft drink six packs have it so that retailers don't buy the cheaper multipacks and then sell the cans separately (often the cans are marked with low prices to prevent this). Books can't be sold except in the original bindings but I've never heard of this as regards minis and there's no labelling to that effect. Unless GW have some clause in their trade terms to prevent retailers doing it I don't think there's any basis to this idea in UK law.

Some ebay buyers just have no idea of costs or availability. Forgeworld is the best for this where items will sometimes reach prices above FW retail plus postage anywhere in the world for used items. Maybe some people don't have credit cards and have to use paypal but some people do bid as if their brains are in neutral. Just don't bid against them. ;)

TheWarSmith
11-08-2006, 17:08
1)I really don't understand the people that put up a codex for $18 then it costs $2-3 shipping. Why wouldn't you just go to the store and buy it for $20+tax? Surely it's easier and more trustworthy.

2)Ebay will not impact GW pricing, I guarantee that. Since these people have to get the product FROM GW in the first place, it remains linked DOWN the chain, not up. It is not as if GW is in competition with the supplier of ebay GW goods.

ThousandPlateaus
11-08-2006, 17:12
It's crazy, though. I'm currently watching two auctions which caught my eye yesterday - not because I want the items (well, I do, but I'll not be bidding) but simply to watch the craziness unfold because it's a perfect example of what I mean...

Solomon Lok and his Toilet Roll are both up for sale in separate auctions - there's 20 hours left before the auction ends and currently Lok is at 7.50 with 2 postage, and BogRoll is at 3.20 with 2 postage; now, if you go over to ForgeWorld, you can buy both together for 9 and 1.68 postage....

So, is it just me - or is that a bit, uhm, wtf?! :wtf:

Gaebriel
11-08-2006, 17:21
... Some ebay buyers just have no idea of costs or availability. Forgeworld is the best for this where items will sometimes reach prices above FW retail plus postage anywhere in the world for used items. Maybe some people don't have credit cards and have to use paypal but some people do bid as if their brains are in neutral. Just don't bid against them. ;)Sadly, for me bidding on Forge World items on eBay is the only way of getting them, as I do not own a credit card, and never will. I have been known to buy Forge World from eBay.com, which means the parts were shipped from the UK to the US and then back to Europe, funny thing... As well as I usually pay more for it than Forge World prices+shipping. But it's the only way :(


1)I really don't understand the people that put up a codex for $18 then it costs $2-3 shipping. Why wouldn't you just go to the store and buy it for $20+tax? Surely it's easier and more trustworthy. ...If I understand correctly some traders put down items meant for those who don't have access to a GW store or Game store - on eBay.de there are loads of buy now boxes that carry the original price, with or without shipping. Why people that have access to eBay wouldn't buy from the GW online store is another question...

lord_blackfang
11-08-2006, 17:27
I honestly don't know how the eBay stores tha charge Retail (with or without shipping) make a living when you can always get the same item for 20% less with just a few more clicks.

Though I have occasionally seen an item go for more than retail when people get carried away bidding on something new and shiny (Black Templar sets for 30 quid and such)

t-tauri
11-08-2006, 19:33
Solomon Lok and his Toilet Roll are both up for sale in separate auctions - there's 20 hours left before the auction ends and currently Lok is at £7.50 with £2 postage, and BogRoll is at £3.20 with £2 postage; now, if you go over to ForgeWorld, you can buy both together for £9 and £1.68 postage....

I'm watching that as well. The same thing occasionally happens with split up Cadian accessory sets, Red Scorpion bits and the like. If you could guarantee it happening every time you could conceivably make some money doing it. Still you'd get near retail each time but the margins after you've removed the ebay fees aren't high enough most of the time.
Sadly, for me bidding on Forge World items on eBay is the only way of getting them, as I do not own a credit card, and never will. I have been known to buy Forge World from eBay.com, which means the parts were shipped from the UK to the US and then back to Europe, funny thing... As well as I usually pay more for it than Forge World prices+shipping. But it's the only way :(
Wouldn't you be better putting an advert in the wanted ads section? There are enough of us on Warseer that order frequently from FW that you paying through paypal for something and then us adding it to a FW order and posting it on to you would be easy enough to do.

luchog
11-08-2006, 19:40
when an item is sold for retail in a package, say, like a box of sodas in cans or miniatures in a box, the items within that box are to be sold withing that box as a set. Usually you see the box labeled as "Not for individual sale" or "Not for resale" or something similar, but the box does not have to have that label to be protected by this law.
Nope, this is not entirely true. The "Not for individual sale" only applies to commercial retailers, and not to non-commercial individual sellers, who are protected by the "First Sale Doctrine" as well as "garage sale" resale rights regulations and practices.

"Not for Resale" also applies more-or-less exclusively to commercial retailers. There are a few instances where this would apply to non-commercial individuals transactions, but this is limited to very specific instances where the product is under a specific contractual and use limitation: some common examples being "review" copies of books and musical recordings (which are technically required to be returned to the publisher after reviewing); "bundled" and "review copy" software, and limited release software (eg. "student" versions of programs like Photoshop or AutoCAD); and similar.

Were your claims true, bitz sellers like BattleWagon could not legally exist; and "garage sale" venues like eBay could not legally allow the sale of bitz or any number of other common products.

luchog
11-08-2006, 19:43
Sadly, for me bidding on Forge World items on eBay is the only way of getting them, as I do not own a credit card, and never will. I have been known to buy Forge World from eBay.com, which means the parts were shipped from the UK to the US and then back to Europe, funny thing... As well as I usually pay more for it than Forge World prices+shipping. But it's the only way :(.

I don't know about most European banks (though I do know that German banks have an equivalent option); but in the US, most banks have credit-agency co-branded direct-debit cards that can be used to make purchases anywhere their credit cards can be used, debiting the amount directly from the user's account.

etham
11-08-2006, 19:46
Sadly, for me bidding on Forge World items on eBay is the only way of getting them, as I do not own a credit card, and never will.

Fortunately Forge World accepts other payment forms. From their website in the payment section:

" Personal Cheque or Postal Money Order made payable to ‘Games Workshop Ltd’ in £ Sterling, US $ or Euros €."

so no credit card needed.


Nope, this is not entirely true. The "Not for individual sale" only applies to commercial retailers, and not to non-commercial individual sellers, who are protected by the "First Sale Doctrine" as well as "garage sale" resale rights regulations and practices.

...

Were your claims true, bitz sellers like BattleWagon could not legally exist; and "garage sale" venues like eBay could not legally allow the sale of bitz or any number of other common products.

But aren't those vendors actually commercial retailers even if they are small businesses run by one or a few individuals? I guess it would depend on whether thay are incorporated. My knowledge on this area is limited as I am not a lawyer, but from the few law classes I've taken it all looks like litigation could be possible., although GW is only losing money if the resellers are acquiring those kits at wholesale.

In the end, though, my point was much more about people bidding up GW merch to ridiculous levels than it was about the legality of selling bits.

Red Corsair
11-08-2006, 20:24
I always wonder at people who buy stuff for more than its worth. I just wonder if its someone who moved to the middle of nowhere, say, montana for instance, and then doesn't have a shop within 100 miles. Still you'd think ordering from GW is still cheaper. They must be victims of the "I MUST have that!" syndrome.

ThousandPlateaus
11-08-2006, 20:34
Yeah, it's odd; whenever I see a (single) miniature that's been bid on, say for £1, I leave it alone - it's more than likely that there'll be another somewhere further down the list which hasn't yet been bid on.

I just wish everyone could work out the price that things are worth, or would be good value at and then leave it at that, like an honour thing... heh... how naive am I?

Galaspar
11-08-2006, 21:09
Ebay's a tricky business, once bids start coming in against you it's so hard to resist the temptation to make new bids for more than you intended. I bid on some old plastic plague marines last night, wanted some to complete my deathguard collection. Promised myself i wouldn't go over a fiver, but a last minute bidding war broke out and i ended up spending £6.50 plus postage. Once I've got my heart set on something I don't like to be disapointed, I'm sure many others are the same.

cybertron2000uk
11-08-2006, 21:30
ebays an evil addiction....worse than Games workshop!

Its always worth doing the research on whatever your buying....

God I love battlewagon bits! wouldnt it be great if GW did the same for all there stuff?? It would be mad!!

Grand Master Raziel
11-08-2006, 21:47
There's one other thing that I think drives up the prices of eBay items: people get competitive about items they've bid on. I've done eBay purchasing, and while I've never knowingly paid more than retail price for something on eBay, there have been times when I've had to restrain myself from bidding past the point of being less than retail price because some turkey has bid that extra little bit more...:mad:

BrainFireBob
11-08-2006, 23:43
I always use the "max bid" option to avoid that temptation. I put in what I'm willing to pay- even if no one's bid yet- so it'll auto-pump it. If someone is nasty/desperate enough to push over my max bid just because he can't handle not winning an auction, he's welcome to overpaying for an item.

THX_1138
12-08-2006, 00:04
With regards to selling Forgeworld stuff on Ebay, a few months back I was watching an auction for the 2006 Forgeworld catalogue, purely because I didn't think anyone would be foolish enough to buy it when you can get it for free directly from Forgeworld.

Of course I was wrong. The seller sold it for about 5! But the thing that really made me laugh was that the seller put in his item description something along the lines of 'buy this catalogue so you don't get ripped off buying Forgeworld items on Ebay!'

Bronka
12-08-2006, 01:33
Some people blatantly don't look at the postage costs as well, or just (stupidly) don't even consider them to be part of the total cost.

You get situations where they're saving a quid on the retail cost of a Rhino, then paying 3 quid postage! ******.

Bookwrak
12-08-2006, 03:32
. My knowledge on this area is limited as I am not a lawyer, but from the few law classes I've taken it all looks like litigation could be possible.
It is not. That's the flat truth of it. If you're really interested in retail law, I suggest taking a few more classes.


In the end, though, my point was much more about people bidding up GW merch to ridiculous levels than it was about the legality of selling bits.
People overvalue stuff, and do stupid things. That's nothing new. GW does not set their prices by Ebay. In fact, perhaps some people over their chuckle to themselves, seeing something get over priced on Ebay, because they know some people will check the price at the online store, and when they see it's cheaper, they'll buy from there, and as long as they're already shopping, they might decide to pick up some other things as well...

VetSgtNamaan
12-08-2006, 05:20
Well what GW can do and will do are two different matters. For example GW sets prices and Retailers are not suppose to alter thier pricing in anyway. Yet that does not stop the hordes of webshops from offering 20-30% discounts on thier box sets. Something GW says they strictly in enforce. Yeah right.

Basically GW wants what ever business wants profits to continue to increase they will let alot of things slide and beside you can just imagine the fallout if they ever decided to pursue any litigation against a customer.

Alessander
12-08-2006, 08:10
A few tips on ebay:

Your best bet at saving money is in buying bulk lots. Rarely will you save money buying one or two blisters, but when you see "Warhammer 40K Eldar Lot" you'll generally save a bundle of cash. Same with armies, since armies are, essentially, lots. Want some nurgle daemons? Search "Nurgle lot" or "daemon lot". I got myself 28 plaguebearers (multiple editions) and a brand new Great Unclean One blister for under $30. Friend of mine picked up a massive Epic lot for $50, which I purchased from him. Ended up being about a 70,000 point epic army. Another person got a painted ravenwing army for under $200

That said, if something looks too good to be true, don't do it. Two years ago someone was doing a dutch auction for Bretonnian Army boxes. Not only was each army box a flat $150, but you got two boxes of men-at-arms too with each army box! They guy had tons of flawless positive feedback, so I "buy it now" two deals, so I was down $300 plus shipping. I had already started printing out rosters for my new army...

After two weeks, I emailed the seller asking about the shipping status. No response. After another week of no responses, I got suspicious and checked his feedback again.

2 days after I bought the stuff, the guy got hit with multiple negative feedbacks - literally, twenty or so in a row. "Item never recieved" "No show, won't respond to email". "warning! Fraud" etc.

Crap. I think that either the owner of the (previously good standing) ebay account got his password stolen, or the seller was in a "positive feedback ring" where multiple crooks pump up eachother's feedback.

Thankfully, I was able to get a refund by filing fraud complaints with Paypal, Ebay and Visa. Paypal's pretty good since they protect you on all transactions.

Bookwrak
12-08-2006, 08:23
You can get good deals on blisters too and small things too, you just have to be willing to work for it. I managed to amass a dozen Necron Immortals for an average price of $5 US a blister. Also, diligent searching and looking for poorly labeled auctions can also pay off. I picked up ten space marine bikes and a pistol case to transport them in, and had no one bid against me, because the auction label was really, really sloppy, so it didn't show up with all the other Warhammer listings.