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Terminatorphoenix
12-08-2006, 21:33
Ok what do we know about the webway,it encompass's the old one's empire and the old eldar empire.Presumably as the old one's left our region of space they may have expanded the webway into thier new domain(if they had a new domain)

We know that the warp is made 'stormy' by the chaos gods(which are formed by emotion.) presumably inbetween the galaxy's thier is no chaos gods,no emotional current(i also realise that this could also equate to a sailors worst nightmare,no wind in the middle of a calm occean but we do not know that the emotional current makes ships move in the warp).

This could either mean that after one leaves the confines of our galaxy it would be smothe sailing to another galaxy or that once you leave our galaxy you'd have no way of moving in the warp.

So warseer what are your opinions using the webway and/or the warp can someone leave our galaxy and begin conquering a new one?

nurgleman
12-08-2006, 21:48
I believe Tryanids use the warp to travel and they are from another galaxy so you could use the warp to travel to another galaxy. However, without the astronomitcan you could become lost in-between galaxies and that would be a bad thing.

The webway more than likely is confined to this galaxy or the eldar would have fled a long time ago.

It would probably be safer to be in another galaxy, but it would not be complete saftey from the chaos gods.

The Venerable Archmage
12-08-2006, 21:56
Well if one could, I think it would still take an astonishingly long time to get between galaxies using warp travel. I suspect it is possible, unless the Immaterium beyond the galaxy is doldrums. It wouldn't, though, due to the aforementioned time contraints, be practical with technology as depicted in 40k.

However, prior to warp travel, we had things like sleeper ships, filled with colonists in stasis, and I see no reason why someone, at some point, probably long before the Imperium rose, most likely during the Dark Age of Technology, should not have tried something like a warp-capable sleeper ship. The problem with this is navigators. You'd need a few of them, and you'd need them awake. They wouldn't last the whole journey, therefore you'd require sufficient population for them to breed, or else a few navigators stashed away in stasis pods who operated on a rota until you arrived in your new galaxy. If you miscalculated and ended up with too few navigators on board, you're pretty much screwed, as you'd end up adrift, either in the Materium, if you were lucky and the navigators dropped out of warp before they all died, or in the Immaterium, in which case all sorts of bad things will happen to your sleeping form before the ship is finally ripped apart by Things Man Was Not Meant To Know.

What I'd like to know is how the Imperium would react to a bunch of humans way outside its control, particularly if it turned out they were managing alright without it.

"Greetings, unidentified ship. This is Captain Jacobs of the scientific vessel Beagle. We come in peace, and wish to know if the human race still survives in its home galaxy."

As for the eldar and their webway, I suspect that if they could manufacture portals on distant worlds in another galaxy, they'd still be able to access them now. The trouble is whether they managed, or even bothered to do so, before the fall, because if they haven't already, they will no longer be capable of doing so.

My money would be on the Necrons, at the end of the day. They have their own ridiculously fast means of propulsion, not reliant upon the warp, and they don't care how many centuries it would take them to get where they're going, because they have all the time in the world to get there. They Tyrannids had best watch out...

Damien 1427
12-08-2006, 22:00
Depends, really. Say this Other Galaxy has no warp rifts, no other sentient life. If, say, The Tau ended up there they'd be fine simply because unless the 'Crons or the 'Nids showed up, they'd have an entire *******' galaxy to themselves. Man would be similar, but with the psychic threat ever present. Orks wouldn't get too far as they'd get bored with no-one to scrap with. Trouble is the no-one, except the 'Crons (With their glowy green drives) or 'Nids (Who are from Beyond Space) has intergalactic travel as standard.

I'd argue mankind has an enclave or two out there, beyond the Halo Stars. Not Imperials, but pre-Crusade man, using long-forgotten technology to propel them across the void. Nothing more than a system or two, hardly a New Human Order.

athamas
12-08-2006, 22:29
there area few human colonies beyond the main spiral arms..

mainly located in the halo zone, where rouge traders p[ly their trade,

the problem is beyone that you lose the psychic beacon from earth... after this warp travel becomes a problem as you get pussed by the currents and dont know where you are...

kinda like loosing the tachyon beam in Babylon 5...

this results in you getting turned around and generally lost on the warp currents..

Nids must have developed some means of detectign the very spark of the soul and thats what they hunt.. each galaxy shining bright like a star in the night sky..

Hellebore
13-08-2006, 01:21
I was under the impression that the Tyranids actually reached our galaxy in hybernation in realspace.

They drifted for hundreds of thousands of years across the gulf between galaxies, only reaching ours very recently.

I don't imagine the Hive Mind would want to risk travelling through the warp outside a galaxy.

Hellebore

nurgleman
13-08-2006, 01:33
I liked that lore, but I think it has been changed to say they used the warp instead.

Khaine's Messenger
13-08-2006, 05:44
presumably inbetween the galaxy's thier is no chaos gods,no emotional current

Well, maybe. The warp is more than just a medium disturbed by the confluence of souls; it also has "mass-shadow" effects that could make the realms between galaxies especially unreactive, like climbing up a sheer cliff in the fabric of space-time (to horribly abuse the "rubber sheet" analogy of old). The warp between galaxies could be more primal (and thus un-navigable), too far away to be reached (ie, millions of years of warp/realspace interaction have not worn the boundaries thin), or a simple dead-zone (where the warp may as well not exist for all the good it would do).


So warseer what are your opinions using the webway and/or the warp can someone leave our galaxy and begin conquering a new one?

No to the webway. But in general, you could...on the other hand, there's not much reason to. Heading out towards the galactic west leads you into a dead-zone (which may be of the C'tan's doing more than anything else) while the galactic east is still untamed territory.

As for Tyranids? It's kinda unknown if they came here via warp or via realspace, but we do know that they use the warp while they're here, and the Shadow is a very notable portion of their influence (perhaps even allowing them manual propulsion in the warp), so arrival via warp would not be out of the question...esp. if you think of the Hive Mind as integral to the Tyranids at all phases of their development, then the becalmed warp makes a tad more sense than the drop-off.

MvS
13-08-2006, 10:08
As others have indicated, this is one of those tricky questions that has never really been explored coherently in the official imagery.

The crux of it for me is how you view the nature of Warp Travel. If you believe that the Warp is pretty much like a Babylon 5 Hyperspace, where distances and co-ordinates in the Warp correlate with those in Realspace only much compressed (so 1 Warp lightyear is 50 Realspace lightyears, say), then I would suggest that you could travel beyond this galaxy in the Warp, but it would take a good long while and you may get lost, etc, etc, etc.

If, however, you believe that the rules of physical dimension and linear time don't apply in the Warp, or apply in randomly changing ways, then this is a whole new ballpark. Time and distance become relative to the expectations of those who enter the Warp and also from pressures of other mortals elsewhere in the Warp, and perhaps also the various entities that are native to the Warp. The Astronomican stops being a literal beam of psychic energy stretching off into the distance within the Warp, because any time and point in the Warp could be any other time point at the same time. So one could cross the universe in a heartbeat, or get lost for millennia trying to hop to the nearest star system.

In this scenario, the Astronomican may not truly be a linear beam of some kind, because the Warp does not have dimensions in that sense, but it may represent an unchanging and powerful psychic constant - something that is almost unique in the Warp - and so whereas distances may shrink or grow exponentially, and whereas time may stretch and contract, and emotions and influences 'within' the Warp may shift and broil in true chaotic fashion, making it impossible to know where one is let alone where one is going, perhaps the Astronomican remains the same and can be sensed in the same constant way, if one can tap into it, and so can be used by those with Warp sight and sensitivity to not so much find a direction within the Warp, but to create direction.

I remember having this discussion before on Portent. The two main problems raised with the above views were:

1. The Warp cannot be infinite, formless, chaotic psychic energy of some sort, like the imagery says, because it has some sort of physical dimensions to travel through.

2. Conversely, if the Warp is infinite, dimensionless, psychic 'energy' that is given form, time, relativity and purpose only by the sentient consciousnesses that perceive and impose these things upon it, both consciously and subconsciously, without this sentient perception and intereference any 'point' or 'time' in the Warp could be any other 'point' or 'time' at the same instant (ie: no coherent and constant space/time continuum). This being the case, how does the Astromonican, movement and the passage of time work within the Warp?

Although my memory is a bit hazy on the subject, I think the general consensus seemed to be that there must be levels of 'depth' one can 'go' to in the Warp, all of which influence direction and the passage of distance and time. The 'shallowest' parts of the Warp are those places where is spills over into Realspace, so the Eye of Terror and parts of the Maelstrom. Here we essentially just have regions of normal space where very freaky-deaky things can happen.

The closer one travels towards the rift in Realspace at the heart of the EoT, the more the laws of physics, of time, of energy and space etc, become malleable. Pass through this rift, then you pass into the Warp, but the exchange of realities is a two-way street. Just as the 'un-laws' and 'un-facts', or the chaos, of the Warp can spill through into Realspace and monkey around with its laws, so too can the actualised laws and facts of Realspace leak into the Warp wherever a rift is opened. This creates a slightly less mind blowingly insane non-place with no dimension or relativity or anything except psychic 'energy' that only 'becomes' something when it interacts with consciousness.

So by merit of the fact that physical entities have entered the Warp for so long, and because there are now rifts through which laws and realities from Realspace can 'leak', whenever anything from Realspace hops into the Warp, they by definition enter a place (as opposed to a 'non-place', I mean, how do you even 'enter' a 'non-place'?) that has some laws - very general, chaotic, shifting, completely malleable and weird laws that can be affected and changed hugely by expectation and emotions of those 'within' this 'part' of the warp, but laws none-the-less.

The Astronomican plays a very big part in imposing some constancy and laws upon the 'part' of the Warp - the 'part' that 90% of all creatures from Realspace 'enter' when doing their Warp jumps or whatever. If you like, you could view this 'part' or 'layer' of the Warp as more like a thin layer of buffer that exists between the sentient creatures of the 40K galaxy and the true Warp - the Absolute non-place, devoid of all laws and dimensions, but consisting instead of perhaps the raw potential for absolutely anything.

So in one sense you could say that in the true Warp there is nothing there, indeed that there isn't even a 'there' to point to, or on the other hand you could point and say that 'there' is the infinite, unrealised potential for absolutely anything and everything conceiveable, of any dimension, time, purpose, magnitude and sentience.

It is in the mixed area of Warp/Realspace interface that rests between all beings in the 40K galaxy and the true Warp (or I'll say Immaterium now for to denote what I've thus far called true Warp) that not only do physical being hop into to travel across the galaxy, but it is also where the emotions, thoughts and soul fragments of mortals reside, along with the gods and daemons that they form. So if we break our own rules and picture the Warp as an identifiable object that we can draw diagrams of, the first layer of the marble would be where the laws of physics leak in a bit (time and phsyical dimension), in whatever diffucsed manner. Then there is a layer of psychic interference from Realspace, being emotions, thoughts, souls, daemons and gods etc, then there is the 'final' and open-ended layer that is a timless infinite splurge of nothing or anything (depending on whose watching, from where, with what power and with what agenda) that is the Immaterium.

Of course all the boundaries between these notional layers would be very, very hazy, with lots of cross over, making the Warp and incredibly volatile place. But it would also mean that travel through the Warp as the peoples of the 40K galaxy understand it would be bound to their own galaxy, because these layers between Realspace and the Immaterium projects from the physivcal existence (and holes in) the 40K galaxy and also from the minds, emotions and souls of those in the 40K galaxy.

This doesn't mean that travel to other segments of the universe would be impossible through the Warp, it just means that you would need to go 'deeper' through the layers of the Warp and 'enter' the Immaterium where there are no laws of distance and time. You wouldn't actually be able to do this physically, because the 'closer' you get to the boundaries between the Warp and the Immaterium (such as they are), the more your very presence imposes some kind of existence and rule onto the Immaterium. So you would have to be incredibly strong willed - almost godlike - because you would have to be able to impose your destination on the Immaterium, not look for it. There would nothing to look for, or maybe there would be infinity to look through, unless you could impose your expectation upon the Immaterium and say 'I will exit the Warp/Immaterium at This place and at This time' MAKING the reality what you want it to be.

Having said this, I imagine that the random thoughts and emotions of untold trillions of other sentient beings, living and dead, not to mention gods and daemons, would always interfere with this process, throwing off your thoughts and determination.

I'm not sure whether any of this actually answers the question of this thread, but then I think it's sometimes more interesting to create more questions and discussion with our responses.

:)

MvS
13-08-2006, 10:09
As a side note, I was wondering what the Warp/Immaterium might be perceived as, as this has a bearing on what they are and how they are traversed.

I imagine that to gaze into the Warp would drive most people crazy simply because it has some laws and realities within it, but laws and realities that change in random and mindblowing ways, and only those with special gifts can look at it without great damage - perhaps they have in-built psychic filters or something that cut out all the 'noise'. As for the Immaterium, I would imagine that if you could somehow open a window to look 'into', one of three general things might happen:

1. Nothing. You can't see 'into' it, because there is no 'into' in the first place and nothing to see. The window won't open in the first place.

2. You see whatever you expected to see, as the infinite unrealised potential of the Immaterium is the most reactive 'stuff' ever, anywhere - the stuff of creation itself, the potential for Something to come from Nothing. So it becomes exactly what you thought/imagined/felt/feared (whatever) it might be. But once it has become that, you are no longer 'seeing' the Immaterium, but instead what you made some of the Immaterium's infinite unrealised potential into.

3. Just by looking at the Immaterium, just by looking at Nothing, you create a paradox. You cannot look at Nothing, because Nothing does not exist, if it did it would be Something, not Nothing. This paradox created by your window 'into' nothing imposes a definite an an infinite Schroedringer's Cat of possibility and creates a new Big Bang, a new universe, as the infinite unrealised potential of the Immaterium immediately reacts with you, your perception, your physical existence, your thoughts, emotions, everything. This doesn't mean the Immaterium is gone, it just means that what you tried to look at has become something else and the Immaterium is once again, Elsewhere.

t-tauri
13-08-2006, 10:59
There's also the question of whether the warp is localised to our galaxy, at least in it's chaos influenced form. Since the chaos gods are locked to the worship of sentient life do other galaxies have them? In other galaxies is the warp more like the hyperspace of B5?

As regards what you see in the warp Navigators are noted in the source material as having different perceptions of the warp from each other-ocean currents to one, random colours to others.

Sybaronde
13-08-2006, 11:59
I would like to note that the Necrons (and the C'tan) somehow managed to 'compress' the Warp, causing it to be like it is at 40k time. If they did so, it would seem that the Warp is not infinite.

hellfire
13-08-2006, 12:21
you actually can navigate without the astronomican because astropaths can project a single much like the astronimican but much much weaker unfortunatley they can only project this signal outside of the warp and it only goes for about 5 light years
as such you need two ships leap-frogging each other to travel beyond the galaxy but it can be done
the last problem would be how to get more astropaths you'd need a bunch of them in stasis because theres no way to get more without the emperor navigators wouldn't be a problem because thats genetic

I always thought that looking into the warp was just an expression because it coincided with what navigators do closer than any other wording

MvS
13-08-2006, 12:36
There's also the question of whether the warp is localised to our galaxy, at least in it's chaos influenced form.
This would be the Warp 'layer' that lies between our minds and the infinite 'Un' of the rest of the Warp/Immaterium. The 'closest' part of the Warp and perhaps only accessable part of it from our galaxy, is the layer that is a mix of stuff projecting from the Materium and the 'stuff' of the Immaterium.


Since the chaos gods are locked to the worship of sentient life do other galaxies have them? In other galaxies is the warp more like the hyperspace of B5?
If the true Warp, the absolute Other, is infinite and connected to every point of the Materium, then I would say that it is accessable from different galaxies, only I would imagine that there are different 'layers' between the consciousnesses of and in these other galaxies and the Immaterium, as indeed there is in the 40K galaxy


As regards what you see in the warp Navigators are noted in the source material as having different perceptions of the warp from each other-ocean currents to one, random colours to others.
This is what i would suggest navigators and other gifted see. But then they are looking into the layer of the Warop that can be travelled through. The part where gods are etc.

MvS
13-08-2006, 12:37
I would like to note that the Necrons (and the C'tan) somehow managed to 'compress' the Warp, causing it to be like it is at 40k time.
Where does this idea come from, may I ask?

Sybaronde
13-08-2006, 15:16
I believe I read it in the Necron codex.

Shibboleth
13-08-2006, 15:56
...can someone leave our galaxy and begin conquering a new one?
I imagine an Eldar Craftworld, not needing to travel by either warp or webway, being a fully self-contained eco-system, with a large population of long-lived slow-breeders, could probably set sail to some destination beyond the borders of the galaxy and keep on going.
Even if they didn't make it to another galaxy they'd still be self sufficient and probably safer.
I don't know if their webportal could 'stretch' the webway with them though? :eyebrows:

It would be pretty Tolkein-esque if they ended up doing this...

MvS
13-08-2006, 16:43
I believe I read it in the Necron codex.

Hmm...

I can't remember it and couldn't find it.

Are you sure this isn't a reference to the desire of the C'tan to cut the mortal universe off from the Warp, thereby keeping all daemons and gods out of the Materium and killing the ability of anyone to use psychic powers?

Brother Smith
13-08-2006, 17:07
You're all forgetting two things:

1. The warp is a dimension (one of four discovered ones in the 40k universe) and therefore infinite.

2. G/DAoT Humans created warp gates or tunnels which allowed slower but safer warp travel. This may be a factor in extra-galactic travel.

Mechanicus
13-08-2006, 18:08
1. The warp is a dimension (one of four discovered ones in the 40k universe) and therefore infinite.

Really? The Space Fleet fluff I have references it as a universe. (As in, the two universes, warp and Real space)


2. G/DAoT Humans created warp gates or tunnels which allowed slower but safer warp travel. This may be a factor in extra-galactic travel.

I've never heard this - what is your source for this?

EdT
13-08-2006, 18:29
I imagine an Eldar Craftworld, not needing to travel by either warp or webway, being a fully self-contained eco-system, with a large population of long-lived slow-breeders, could probably set sail to some destination beyond the borders of the galaxy and keep on going.

Wasn't there a Craftworld in Shadow Point that did exactly this? I can't find my copy at present, but if I remember rightly the Avatar that spent most of the book rampaging through the webway started off from a Craftworld that had pretty much left the galaxy and didn't require his presence as there was no chance of attack.

Of course, it could have been on the fringes of the galaxy rather then actually in the space between, but it implies at least that the webway can work over vast distances if needed.

Terminatorphoenix
13-08-2006, 18:29
could someone write down the four known dimensions

Mechanicus
13-08-2006, 18:52
I'd also like to know the dimensions that have been discovered.

If the immaterium is included (and I'm not sold on that idea yet), you'd have to include the materium as well. So, if we also include the Necron's dimension, from the Thorian sourcebook, we've still got 1 unnacounted for.

1 - Materium

2 - Immaterium

3 - Alterium (for want of a better name)

4 - ?

Terminatorphoenix
13-08-2006, 19:08
i like that5 alterium its kind off alternative

Sybaronde
13-08-2006, 20:45
Hmm...

I can't remember it and couldn't find it.

Are you sure this isn't a reference to the desire of the C'tan to cut the mortal universe off from the Warp, thereby keeping all daemons and gods out of the Materium and killing the ability of anyone to use psychic powers?

It might be. I'll see if I can read up on it soon. The Necron codex will be unavailable for me for another week still. :(

jimbobodoll
13-08-2006, 21:05
Could somebody explain this idea of a 'Necron dimension'? Also, after reading all these posts i have to say Kudos to MvS, man you've seriously done some thinking about this!
So the answer to this thrad is so far:
Webway: No (Eldar only exist in this Galaxy as far as we know)
Real Space: Maybe
Warp/Immaterium: Maybe as well.
Is this right?

Mechanicus
13-08-2006, 21:21
Made from a fragment of the Living Metal that encases the god-like alien C'tan, the phase sword exists neither in the real universe, not wholly in the Warp, but in a dimension of its own.

A quote from the Thorian sourcebook, page 31. It could be one way of explaining the Necrons inertialess drives, but it's only been stated there that the dimension exists. At the moment, anyway. I'm sure when GW gets around to the Necron codex again, they'll expand on it.

jimbobodoll
13-08-2006, 21:30
Thanks mechanicus. Perhaps people on this thread are getting a bit confused between the idea of universes and dimensions though?
The material universe has 4 dimensions (inc time).
You have to leave it to get to the 'warp' where these dimensions have less meaning (if any) kinda suggests it might be another universe (slaved to this by the emotions of the sentient creatures here?
So the C'Tan Phase sword... Maybe it exists as a dimension in the material universe or maybe in its own micro dimension or universe that intersects this and the immaterium?

Terminatorphoenix
13-08-2006, 21:52
i think it would make more sense if it existed in its own dimension in the physical universe(don't the necrons hate the other universes)

jimbobodoll
13-08-2006, 21:58
Yea... so it isnt really a necron "dimension" (meaning universe) with which to travel to another galaxy... up and down, side to side, forward/backward, time and "necron" dimension... so its back to warp or non warp to get to another Galaxy then...

Kandarin
14-08-2006, 02:09
i think it would make more sense if it existed in its own dimension in the physical universe(don't the necrons hate the other universes)

Wha? As far as I can tell, "dimension" and "universe" mean the same thing in the context of this thread.

The Necrons hate the Warp, because they cannot control it. This doesn't mean that other, lesser-known dimensions might be easier for them to manipulate to some limited degree.

Outlaw289
14-08-2006, 02:35
"Greetings, unidentified ship. This is Captain Jacobs of the scientific vessel Beagle. We come in peace, and wish to know if the human race still survives in its home galaxy."

That'd be an awesome scenario if it ever happened

Lord Zarkov
14-08-2006, 09:39
Wha? As far as I can tell, "dimension" and "universe" mean the same thing in the context of this thread.


A universe if everything in space you can detect

A dimension is a direction that something exists in: i.e. if it exists in one it's a line; if it exists in 2 its a flat shape etc.
Our universe has at least 4 dimensions, with the 4th being time (the others being length, height & depth)
In Xenology it is sugested that the Umbra exists in more than these 4 dimensions, so some things obviously can.

The 'Necron Dimension' could either be a true dimenion or another 'Plane' (like the Materium and the warp); both would account for the extrordianry abilities of things that use it.

jimbobodoll
14-08-2006, 10:01
The 'Necron Dimension' could either be a true dimenion or another 'Plane' (like the Materium and the warp); both would account for the extrordianry abilities of things that use it.

It has been theorised in physics that there might be hooped shaped miniture 'dimensions' in our universe. The idea for these came from trying to balance out ridiculously complicated equations physicists devise in attempting to exaplin, mathmatically, the nature of the universe. From this point of view, the 'necron dimension' might exist as one of these... I dont think its possible to view this as a way to get to another galaxy FTL though. Perhaps a craftworld might be the best way travelling through the void as a self contained eco system generating its own power and with a sustainable population.

Brother Smith
14-08-2006, 13:23
Really? The Space Fleet fluff I have references it as a universe. (As in, the two universes, warp and Real space)



I've never heard this - what is your source for this?

Both from the 3rd edition rulebook.

Mechanicus
14-08-2006, 14:12
[...] when it was discovered that the universe was a mixture of different dimensions interacting with each other. The material world as we know it is one of these dimensions and warp space (or the warp) is another.

Not a dimension as in measurable and potentially infinite, evidently, because it says the entire material world, not width, length, breadth and time, is one.


Warp travel between some areas is vastly improved by the presence of ancient warp gates. Although their creators remain a mystery of the dim pre-history of Earth, warp gates can be found across the galaxy. These portals into the immaterium link to another warp gate through a stabilised tunnel [...] and most warp tunnels are no more than a few light years from gate to gate.

They weren't created by humans from the Dark/Golden age, because it states that the creators are a "mystery of the dim pre-history of Earth" which implies they are alien, possibly Old One made. And also, they are never more than a few light years long, so it is unlikely they would be used in extra-galactic travel.

x01
14-08-2006, 14:34
I belive that the crons showed be able to as they can sleep for years and don't use wrap to travell however the eldar can't use the webways as their is not a webway that i know of in any other galaxy.

Skrittiblak
14-08-2006, 14:42
I believe that warp-space "the immaterium" depends on the material universe. It requires living things as fuel in a sense - the immaterium being a raw manifestation of the psychic imprint of physical creatures.

Since nothing exists outside the confines of our galaxy (or rather between galaxies) the warp seizes to exist. I suspect that if travelling in the warp after a certain distance is covered you will be spit-out into real-space as the limits of warp-space are reached.

This is not backed up by official canon in any way - its just my vision of the 40k universe.

Commander Ozae
14-08-2006, 21:44
The Warp is a dimension of pure energy, i don't think it requires the presence of living beings as a sort of fuel. Living beings influence the Warp (like the formation of Chaos) but other than that the Warp can exist without living beings.

Kandarin
14-08-2006, 22:59
A universe if everything in space you can detect

A dimension is a direction that something exists in: i.e. if it exists in one it's a line; if it exists in 2 its a flat shape etc.
Our universe has at least 4 dimensions, with the 4th being time (the others being length, height & depth)
In Xenology it is sugested that the Umbra exists in more than these 4 dimensions, so some things obviously can.

The 'Necron Dimension' could either be a true dimenion or another 'Plane' (like the Materium and the warp); both would account for the extrordianry abilities of things that use it.

For the purposes of GW's fluffwriting "dimension" seems to equal "universe" and/or "plane". This is bad science, since dimension-hopping, strictly speaking, would simply mean moving in Direction X as opposed to height, depth, width or time. But that's how it is.

Hellebore
15-08-2006, 05:28
I believe that warp-space "the immaterium" depends on the material universe. It requires living things as fuel in a sense - the immaterium being a raw manifestation of the psychic imprint of physical creatures.

Since nothing exists outside the confines of our galaxy (or rather between galaxies) the warp seizes to exist. I suspect that if travelling in the warp after a certain distance is covered you will be spit-out into real-space as the limits of warp-space are reached.

This is not backed up by official canon in any way - its just my vision of the 40k universe.

Sounds good, but doesn't work.

The Old Ones manipulated the warp before there were any sentient races around. They were emotionless cold-blooded beings that didn't actually affect the warp. It was only after they created the Young Races that it all went to hell.

And even before that, the Immaterium actually had its own life forms. Naturally occurring within it, things like the enslavers, psychicneunin(sp), astral hounds etc, all are independent of the soul energy provided by the Young Races, and by their very existence dispell the idea that the warp only exists due to the presence of souls.

Hellebore

MvS
15-08-2006, 08:23
Yup..

To say that the Warp is fundamentally affected by sentient life in Realspace/Materium is one thing, to say that it is wholly created by sentient life in Realspace/Materium is another entirely - and not accurate, I think.

I do believe however that the Materium/Immaterium are two side of the same coin, i.e.: Creation itself. The Entirety of Everything. One proceeds from the other and then they circles around each other (metaphorically speaking) like a big old Yin Yang.

I think. ;)

Gdolkin
23-08-2006, 01:51
MvS i just read a few bits of that again. i mean everthing u said on this thread on page 1 and on wards, thats the most intelligent thing ive ever read on a forum. descriptive of what it would be like to say the unsayable. I dunno bout physics and metaphysics but i reckon you sir should read the philosophy of Wittgenstein. or more 40k stuff, 's up to you.