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mageith
13-08-2006, 15:50
It was Ogres and Pikemen vs. Dwarves.

3 Units of 4-wide Ogres and 3 Units of Pikes advanced under withering fire to six units of Dwarfs.

Finally the Ogres were in range to charge but the Pikes were slightly out range but rather than face another barrage of shooting, the Ogres decided to charge. The Dwarfs held. During the normal movement, the pikes move up to support the Ogres and prevent flank charges. They moved up to within 2 inches of the Dwarfs.

However the Dwarfs were so close together, they could declare charges on the flanks of the Ogres and could reach but there was not enough room to align without swinging into the Pikes.


ddddd ddddd dd3dd dd4dd ddddd ddddd
ddddd ddddd ddddd ddddd ddddd ddddd
ddddd ddddd ddddd ddddd ddddd ddddd
ddddd ddddd ddddd ddddd ddddd ddddd
.........OOOO...................OOOO...OOOO
ppppp.........ppppp..ppppp
ppppp.........ppppp..ppppp
ppppp.........ppppp..ppppp
ppppp.........ppppp..ppppp

So could the dwarfs (notably unit 3 and 4) flank the Ogres, then align into the pikes thus getting a +1 on the Ogres. If so, what would the final field look like?

Or could the Dwarfs be prevented from declaring a charge that they could not complete?

You can deal with this under either 6th or 7th rules. We were playing under 7th edition rules, however. Underf 6th it would even be more enticing as the Ogres might flee from being charged in the side.

Mage Ith

DirtJumper
13-08-2006, 16:06
I don't think that they can, as it is physically impossible, because it would mean going through 2 units (the pikes and his own dwarfs) in order to do so. (ans since they can't contact the enemy with their charge move, it would be a failed charge)

mageith
13-08-2006, 16:13
I don't think that they can, as it is physically impossible, because it would mean going through 2 units (the pikes and his own dwarfs) in order to do so. (ans since they can't contact the enemy with their charge move, it would be a failed charge)

The point is that it WAS physically possible to contact the Ogres. The Dwarfs were really close together, they'd just have to move slightly forward, wheel slightly then move toward the Ogres and make contact. And once contact is made the charge is completed, is it not? And now its a matter of alignment.

I wouldn't have asked the question if it hadn't come up in the battle.

Mage Ith

DirtJumper
13-08-2006, 16:24
As it looks in the diagram, the Dwarfs don't have a whole lot of room to wheel, plus it would bring them to withing 1" of an enemy then aren't in combat with, so I don't think that it can be done.

Festus
13-08-2006, 16:50
Hi

Maybe p. 266 of the BRB can help you?
Especially the third paragraph?

Greetings
Festus

mageith
13-08-2006, 17:09
Hi

Maybe p. 266 of the BRB can help you?
Especially the third paragraph?

Greetings
Festus
Who are you talking to?
If it's me, what's obvious to you isn't obvious to me. How would you adjudicate this?



As it looks in the diagram, the Dwarfs don't have a whole lot of room to wheel, plus it would bring them to withing 1" of an enemy then aren't in combat with, so I don't think that it can be done.

Mr DirtJumper: They definitely don't have a whole lot of room to wheel, but they do have enough to make contact. The one inch rule is ignored during charge moves, is it not?

Please assume they could could reach whatever my diagram looks like.

If the charge is legal, the Dwarfs will be fighting two units. There's no doubt about that. It would be of great benefit to them to bring in the Ogres because they will get the +1 CR for flank and be able to apply the size bonus to the larger battle.

However you are right about one thing. There's not enough room to place everything in a neat battle line and some units will have to be shifted. Which ones and how?

If there's a rule that would somehow prevent the declaration and/or contact then that would be OK too.

Page 265: "Once a charging unit has touched its opponent, the combat is committed and it only remains to align the antagonists where the charge has been made at an angle."

Don't know if this rule is in 7th and maybe they've cleared up Awkward Charges (265) somehow.

Mage Ith

Gorbad Ironclaw
13-08-2006, 17:57
As it looks in the diagram, the Dwarfs don't have a whole lot of room to wheel, plus it would bring them to withing 1" of an enemy then aren't in combat with, so I don't think that it can be done.


Ignored for charges. You can move within 1" of enemy units while charging. You just adjust the battle line after all charges are complete to restore the distance(or more frequently, just ignore it).

I'd say you could. It would be really messy, but remember. An alignment move can not cause a failed charge. If you have movement, and can contact the enemy(as in, there are physical room to contact the unit), the charge will happen. Then it's your job to find out a way to align the combat to make it happen.

Obviously, at some point it might be completly rediculess and both can agree that it's not possible. But I think that the way the rules are, the dwarfs could flank charge you. I can't remember if you can move units out of combat(don't think so?), so you would align the dwarfs as much as possible, then move the ogres. Messy indeed.

sds661
14-08-2006, 03:45
MageIth, I assume that more than half the dwarf unit is in the flank quarter at the time the charge is declared (not completely clear from the diagram)?

Anyway, we play many battles with very packed battle lines, and we wouldn't allow this charge. We interpret the "free" alignment move as a wheel, whereas here the dwarves would have to do a lot of sideways shuffling. To me it looks like a frontal charge, with only one dwarf in BTB attacking across corners ... but if most of the dwarves are in the flank quarter, then tough, you can't do it ... charge the pikes instead. (And why not ... pikes are pussies against T4 and dwarf armour.)

mageith
14-08-2006, 04:05
MageIth, I assume that more than half the dwarf unit is in the flank quarter at the time the charge is declared (not completely clear from the diagram)?

Yes, Another ramification of the 5 wide rule. The diagram isn't great because 'd' isn't square.



Anyway, we play many battles with very packed battle lines, and we wouldn't allow this charge. We interpret the "free" alignment move as a wheel, whereas here the dwarves would have to do a lot of sideways shuffling.

Only after they made contact. The inital charge is only a slight wheel and a short Mv to the Ogres flank.



To me it looks like a frontal charge, with only one dwarf in BTB attacking across corners ... but if most of the dwarves are in the flank quarter, then tough, you can't do it ... charge the pikes instead. (And why not ... pikes are pussies against T4 and dwarf armour.)
The dwarfs wanted to charge the Ogres AND then align into the Pikes for greater effectiveness. It would have made a very messy battle line. So in the end we didn't do it.

As I re-read the rules I came across this. "In a case like this the charging player whould declare his charge against which unit he intends to bring the models to bear against." (267)

I guess the Dwarf player could say 'I intend to bring the most models against the Ogres.' But since he can't and will (whether he 'intends' or not) bring the most models against the Pikes, the charge to the Ogres wouldn't happen.

Anyway we didn't do it, but I hate it when I couldn't come up with a good answer at the moment.

Thanks, Mage Ith

Lord Zarkov
14-08-2006, 10:16
they may be able to get in combat with the ogres, but they can't move round to get the flank as they can't go within an inch of an enemy the're not charging. it used to be allowed under the 'accidental charges' rule but then it got errata'd so that you cannot charge in such a way that you will end up in contact with more than the enemy you're charging. From what I can see in the diagram the Dwarfs would charge foward but would end up in a front charge with the one model touching on the corner

DeathlessDraich
14-08-2006, 11:34
I've assumed that:
a) The dwarf unit has enough space when it first touches the flank of the charged unit. If not, the charge is discounted i.e. does not happen as opposed to a failed charge.

b) Maximisation cannot happen without moving other units not involved in the charge

Using the maximisation rules:

If the Dwarf unit can clearly reach the flank before the final alignment, the charge should be allowed in principle.

Pg265 "... where it would be more convenient, it is entirely possible to move the charged unit to align ...

From this, only the 2 units involved in the charge can be moved in any way to accomodate the maximisation.

There is no mention of moving Other units to accomodate a charge and terrain definitely cannot be moved.

I suggest 2 possible solutions:

1) Move the Pikemen and Dwarf unit involved in a charge to maximise as much as possible without moving the other units that are not involved in charging or being charged. This might mean only 1 or 2 models will be in BtB contact.

OR

2) The charge/s is/are discounted because it will entail moving other units to maximise.

Both solutions, I think should be agreed upon by both players as this will be in the spirit of the maximisation rules.

After writing this, I realised that a) players might agree to the seldom used multiple charges as in pg 267 i.e. involving the pikemen.
I don't think the Dwarf player would volunteer to be piked in the flank though.:eek:

b) I think the Ogres' panic test should only be taken if solution(1) is agreed even though the charge was measured to be possible and within range.

Festus
14-08-2006, 13:12
Hi

I realised that a) players might agree to the seldom used multiple charges as in pg 267 i.e. involving the pikemen.
I don't think the Dwarf player would volunteer to be piked in the flank though.:eek:
If I understood Mage Ith correctly, this is just what he attempted to do: flank the ogres adn draw the pikes into the fight.

Greetings
Festus

mageith
14-08-2006, 13:59
1) Move the Pikemen and Dwarf unit involved in a charge to maximise as much as possible without moving the other units that are not involved in charging or being charged. This might mean only 1 or 2 models will be in BtB contact.

Like this?
d2 and Ogres facing UP
p facing to right
d3 facing to left

Thats's a lot of unrealistic shuffling and backing up for the pikes in order to accomodate a very Awkward charge.

dd2dd
ddddd
ddddd
ddddd
OOOOdd3dd
pppppddddd
pppppddddd
pppppddddd
ppppp

Now if the Ogres fled (6th edition), dwarf3 and pikes would never engage since the charge was declared against the Ogres and d3 couldn't redirect into the pikes which is easily could have charged in the first place.

In 7th it wouldn't happen because the Ogres are immune to psychology tests.

DeathlessDraich
14-08-2006, 15:51
Like this?
d2 and Ogres facing UP
p facing to right
d3 facing to left

Thats's a lot of unrealistic shuffling and backing up for the pikes in order to accomodate a very Awkward charge.

dd2dd
ddddd
ddddd
ddddd
OOOOdd3dd
pppppddddd
pppppddddd
pppppddddd
ppppp



Solution (1), I proposed was based on the dwarf unit declaring and charging the Ogre flank. The Pikes Cannot move to accomodate the final alignment in accordance with pg 265 rules.
To align: The dwarf front or the Ogre flank battle line would not be perpendicular to the Pikes but at an adjusted angle so that the maximum number of models are in BtB.
Can't tell from your diag. but is this possible?



Hi

If I understood Mage Ith correctly, this is just what he attempted to do: flank the ogres adn draw the pikes into the fight.

Greetings
Festus

If a charge is declared against both Pikes and Ogres then the diagram you drew would conform with the rules, I think, since all 3 units are involved in the charge and therefore all 3 can be repositioned.

Again, I can't tell from your diag., whether this is reasonable or awkward but as I mentioned earlier, this section of the rules does emphasise mutual agreement between players and if either feels that the extra alignment moves, weakens their army's position, they can easily refuse.

Over to you, Mageith and Festus.:D

Just another observation on Multiple charges:

I've always assumed that the charger must declare whether it is one unit or 2 that is being charged and it is not up to the charged unit to move into a charge/combat.
This might contradict the diags. on pg 267 but conforms with
pg 44 "If you want to attack an enemy you must charge him...you cannot... without declaring a charge"
i.e. the Pikeman cannot be allowed to 'move into combat' or BtB with the dwarves if the charge was Not declared against them As Well as the Ogres.

mageith
14-08-2006, 16:25
I've always assumed that the charger must declare whether it is one unit or 2 that is being charged and it is not up to the charged unit to move into a charge/combat.

A unit can only DECLARE a charge against ONE unit. It it is INEVITABLE that another unit will be involved it is treated like a charge, but its not actually a declared charge, though the unit gets all its normal reactions and must take all its normal tests.

Inevitability can occur because of the alignment move (the case at hand possibly) or because the charging unit is very wide.



This might contradict the diags. on pg 267 but conforms with
pg 44 "If you want to attack an enemy you must charge him...you cannot... without declaring a charge"

Yes it does contradict that--or explains how it works under Awkward Charges. The alternative would be to make some positions invulnerable to being charged when they intuitively could be charged--such as when using a wide unit.



i.e. the Pikeman cannot be allowed to 'move into combat' or BtB with the dwarves if the charge was Not declared against them As Well as the Ogres.
The Pikemen can be 'aligned' into a combat. There are diagrams to that effect. It's treated as charging.

Its really a very controversial area and hopefully less so in 7th.

The key concept is the once contact is made, the charge is successful and a neat battleline must be formed. However the charge must be a legal charge and personally I'm satisfied that the charge into the Ogres is not legal because the Dwarfs must declare the charge against the unit most involved based on model count, that is the unit that will have the most models brought to bear against it. In this case it will be the Pikemen and if a charge is declared against the pikemen the Ogres will not be involved.

However, this still doesn't entirely solve the problem. In another situation, if the Ogres were a man-sized unit of the same size as the pikemen, then the Dwarfs could in fact bring the most models to bear against their flank and again pushing back the pikemen in a most non intuitive manner.

I'm hoping this is all moot in 7th.

eldrak
14-08-2006, 23:19
I wouldn't really call what's in the appendii for rules, it's more of of a loose guide to solve situations it even tells you:


All these systems are not technically allowed by the letter of the rules, but...

That together what it says on p. 53 makes me think you could move the ogre unit and the unit it's fighting to avoid hitting the pikes.

Why would they want to do that anyway? It's hard to tell from the letters how they're aligned but wouldn't it give the other side +3CR for ranks (and flank?).

T10
16-08-2006, 09:50
However the Dwarfs were so close together, they could declare charges on the flanks of the Ogres and could reach but there was not enough room to align without swinging into the Pikes.


In this case it seems appropriate to engage the Ogres to the front: 4x1 Ogres are wider than 5x4 Dwarfs.

This breaks the rule regarding which side upon which you engage the enemy.

Moving around the flanks, however, challenges the rules regarding wheeling, forces shuffling around of units and in causes great changes in the original battle line.

Engaging the Ogres to the front allows the battle line to be maintained and does not suddenly force either side to suddenly expose their flanks.

The lesser of two evils, perhaps?

-T10