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sigur
14-08-2006, 04:56
So I re-read the 2nd edition rulebook again and those rules (once again) sound so great that I'll ask my group if they like to play a few games under those rules.

The main point of critique people expressed in the past are overpowered and game-dominating caracters, mostly because of very powerful wargear cards, some people mentioning GW going over the top on them with Dark Millenium. So what is your opinion on this? Should we just leave the new DM wargear out of the game? (people will hardly let me leave the wargear cards in the codices out)

thanks for help with yet another take on reviving the superior ruleset.;)

Darwin_green
14-08-2006, 05:42
uhm.... no. no no no no no no.

don't let that cat out of the bag, what ever you do!

Shaper Shakra
14-08-2006, 05:43
Your avatar is a cat.....2nd edition kinda sucked man. Overwatch was so insanely boring...but if you must play, leave DM out.

Darwin_green
14-08-2006, 06:57
well, at least use the vehicle cards that came out of it. Second edition was so complicated you wound up half of the rules.

damage dice, armour save modifiers, mult-dice penetration, and armour penatrating penalties based off of distance traveld to target.

that and psykers were broken. that added an extra hour to the game because of the extra phase.

CENOBITE
14-08-2006, 07:13
As has been said: don't go into overwatch and don't use any vehicles. Playing without characters would help also...

Darwin_green
14-08-2006, 07:38
which you might as just give up and play necromunda.

shabbadoo
14-08-2006, 08:00
One battle report summed up the uber-character thing in 2e really well.

An ultramarines captain with a plasma pistol and a power sword(among other wargear)cruises along and shoots up an Ork trukk piled with boyz, kills the Orks who pile out of it(at least 10 of them), and then makes junk of an Ork Dreadnought without breaking too much of a sweat. In 3e/4e, that character would probably be dragged down by the mob of boyz, and defintiely would be snipped in two by the dreadnought. Back then people were trying to screw around with how many hard copies of cards they had, which dictated how many of certain wargear items they could include in their army. Barrel of monkeys lame.

As to the mission cards in Dark Millenium, there is a thread here somewhere that features similar fan-made Mission Cards for 4th edition, though I do not have a link. The thread is probably in this forum or the rules forum. I think there are two sets of cards.

TomKamakazi
14-08-2006, 13:59
Wow... I don't think I've ever seen so much hate for 2nd ed in one place. I'm not alone!

Wargear cards are fine if you're playing 2nd ed, unless they say "Vortex" or "Virus" followed by "Grenade"

(Evil)Ash
14-08-2006, 14:07
I tried to go back ones when we were in the 3rd edition, and it became a complete mess. rules for, say, close combat are completely different and very cunfusing if you're used to the current ones. and the worst part was that drag of a magic phase:eyebrows:

greetz,:evilgrin:

ThousandPlateaus
14-08-2006, 14:29
Meh.

I'd go back and reuse everything - hell, if you're going to play second edition, just play second edition; if nothing else, you'll get a lot of fun out of a game.

If you start taking little bits and pieces out here and there, you'll get nowhere because anything disadvantageous to one side will just be requested to be removed, so you'll eventually end up with pretty much nothing in play.

Just go the whole hog and see what you make of it all - personally, I loved 2nd edition and I'm still gutted at how much Psykers have been dumbed down.

Lord Dante
14-08-2006, 14:40
If u want the game to be non-character dominated, and non WG dominated, dont use them.

And dont let anyone play Eldar - u only have to randomly pick things in that list to beat anyone.

Powerfist & chainsword,turn-aside blow-crack-shot bright lance-banshee mask-swooping hawk wings.

I win :p

TTuren
15-08-2006, 22:07
Sigur, I'm with Thousand on this issue. If you play 2nd Ed. then by all means use all the rules. I continue to play 2nd Ed and we have always used all the rules and are fond of the Dark Mil. additions. Many groups that still use these rules do ban the vortex grenade in particular and Virus was outlawed by GW not long after it was introduced.

As for other issues posted regarding 2nd Ed I'm shocked anyone would dislike overwatch. Characters in my opinion are soft points sinks easily slain with overwatch. Psykers are strong only in comparison with 3rd/4th ones and I enjoy the psykic phase myself. The Eldar are easily turned to pulp by the IG and again not difficult to curtail with, you guessed it, overwatch.

Cheers,

TTuren

Minister
15-08-2006, 22:51
I'd just go and play 2nd edition. Honestly, I don't know what the fuss was about. It did get a bit unwieldy, but it was hardly dificult.

I would go by the advice of the GT and remove Virus Outbreak and the Virus Grenade, though.

Col. Dash
15-08-2006, 23:56
Wow. 2nd ed was way more superior than the generic bucket of dice 40k we have now. If you knew the rules the games took no longer than they do now. Roughly an hour for every 1000 points. Every army had its flavor and its own unique challenges. And yes, if you are in a vehicle when it blows up, everyone in it should die, thats the way it works in real life, its the way it should work in the game, and yes I abuse the rules now by playing mostly mech armies because I know it wont happen. The game was more complicated and made more sense. I dont play a game to get it over as soon as possible. Dont like overwatch, figure a way around it. I never had that problem when I played. Hand to hand combat made waaaaay more sense. It was individualized instead of this, "Oh you are within 2 inches of one of my models in melee" crap we have now that makes no sense. I loved the whole I am jumping your lord with my 7 choads. Sure you beat down the first 5 as you should, now though you are starting to get bogged down and could possibly take some hits, "Muaha! Parry your 6!" Hey look my chain sword actually has real stats as opposed to being the equivalent of a stick or a dull pencil that it is in 4th edition.
As far as cards go, just ditch the Vortex and virus grenade cards, the rest were not that bad.
YAY 2nd!

Latro_
16-08-2006, 00:06
ahhh wargear cards those bring back memories

coversion fields blinding most of the models on the board

the complimentary votex grenade that killed everything under it. (see ya yarrick) (was that a card i forget)

my all time fav, lesser known.. The space wolf alien device that made you invisible and able to move about 20" a turn. :P

sigur
16-08-2006, 13:44
Well, thanks for the more constructive input guys (if you don't like 2nd edition, why bothering posting in this thread?). I wasn't able to go online the last days so I couldn't check the thread.

I already planned to drop anything virus or vortex. Personally, I like psykers and their weird powers (on paper) so I'll definitly keep them, also our Eldar guy would be pretty pissed if I dropped it.:p Seems like I'm gonna give 2nd edition a try as it is and then look for things to tweak it a bit if necessary. The only thing I really dread is the nature of the people I play with because they love heros and min-maxing them as well as winning so my plan most likely is doomed anyway.:(

by the way, does anyone know where to find the latest 2nd edition FAQ? I have it in some WD, but an internet link would be much more comfortable to use because of my laziness.:p

Captain Optimus Metallus
16-08-2006, 14:00
One battle report summed up the uber-character thing in 2e really well.

An ultramarines captain with a plasma pistol and a power sword(among other wargear)cruises along and shoots up an Ork trukk piled with boyz, kills the Orks who pile out of it(at least 10 of them), and then makes junk of an Ork Dreadnought without breaking too much of a sweat. In 3e/4e, that character would probably be dragged down by the mob of boyz, and defintiely would be snipped in two by the dreadnought. Back then people were trying to screw around with how many hard copies of cards they had, which dictated how many of certain wargear items they could include in their army. Barrel of monkeys lame.

As to the mission cards in Dark Millenium, there is a thread here somewhere that features similar fan-made Mission Cards for 4th edition, though I do not have a link. The thread is probably in this forum or the rules forum. I think there are two sets of cards.

I have that battle report and you're grossly over-exaggerating.

1) The Ultramarines Captain didn't shoot up an Ork Trukk piled with Boyz. He took out a Wartrakk with a crew of two Orks. BIG difference. Two Orks, no matter WHAT the edition, is an easy target for a Space Marine Captain. And even if we were discounting the fact that you can't target the bike crew separately in 4th edition, they still would've been an easy kill. Wartrakks have a Front Armour of 10. The guy could score a Penetrating Hit on a 5+ bare-handed! With Krak Grenades, it becomes pretty easy to blow up a Wartrakk. Then again, he didn't have Krak Grenades. He had Melta Bombs, so a Wartrakk would never have a prayer.

2) Like I said, it was a Wartrakk. So it wasn't piled with Boyz. Nor did the Ultramarines Captain get into a fight with a mob of boyz. He didn't fight ANY Ork Boyz throughout the course of the battle. Especially not 10.

3) Yes, he did fight an Ork Dreadnought, and he did beat it up. But once again, he had Melta Bombs. You telling me that a Space Marine Captain in the current edition with Melta Bombs couldn't do the same?

Like I said, a gross exaggeration. The Ultramarines Captain in that battle report did NOTHING a Space Marine Captain can't do nowadays in 4th edition.

Apollyon
16-08-2006, 18:09
2nd ed was a better game once the whole virus thing was elimanted.
The Vortex grenade was a balancer for powergamers who played against "the spirit of the game" and created uber characters. 50 pt grenades removes 500pt character. The vehicles and grenade rules were VASTLY superior. The MOST fun game I ever played was Ork speed freaks( buggies trucks and bikes ) vs Ravenwing(speeders and bikes) in 2nd ed.



So I re-read the 2nd edition rulebook again and those rules (once again) sound so great that I'll ask my group if they like to play a few games under those rules.

The main point of critique people expressed in the past are overpowered and game-dominating caracters, mostly because of very powerful wargear cards, some people mentioning GW going over the top on them with Dark Millenium. So what is your opinion on this? Should we just leave the new DM wargear out of the game? (people will hardly let me leave the wargear cards in the codices out)

thanks for help with yet another take on reviving the superior ruleset.;)

jimbobodoll
16-08-2006, 18:19
I have that battle report and you're grossly over-exaggerating.

1) The Ultramarines Captain didn't shoot up an Ork Trukk piled with Boyz. He took out a Wartrakk with a crew of two Orks. BIG difference. Two Orks, no matter WHAT the edition, is an easy target for a Space Marine Captain. And even if we were discounting the fact that you can't target the bike crew separately in 4th edition, they still would've been an easy kill. Wartrakks have a Front Armour of 10. The guy could score a Penetrating Hit on a 5+ bare-handed! With Krak Grenades, it becomes pretty easy to blow up a Wartrakk. Then again, he didn't have Krak Grenades. He had Melta Bombs, so a Wartrakk would never have a prayer.

2) Like I said, it was a Wartrakk. So it wasn't piled with Boyz. Nor did the Ultramarines Captain get into a fight with a mob of boyz. He didn't fight ANY Ork Boyz throughout the course of the battle. Especially not 10.

3) Yes, he did fight an Ork Dreadnought, and he did beat it up. But once again, he had Melta Bombs. You telling me that a Space Marine Captain in the current edition with Melta Bombs couldn't do the same?

Like I said, a gross exaggeration. The Ultramarines Captain in that battle report did NOTHING a Space Marine Captain can't do nowadays in 4th edition.

I remember that one also. It was a battlewagon not a truk. It and some ork biker boyz drove down a shallow stream... You are right that the captain could do in the current edition though, i think it would depend on more luck in the current version though.

Bloody Gauntlet
16-08-2006, 20:15
Yes, try it as mentioned without the virus thingies and have fun! But don't suppose that it's WH40k like today - it's a completely different game and has a different "feel" to it!

Xurben
16-08-2006, 20:22
2nd edition.. when cheese wasnt cheesy =)

Latro_
16-08-2006, 21:45
and when characters were half your army

cyclone missile launchers were good and orks could hit stuff

edit: with their BOLT GUNS hehe

sigur
16-08-2006, 22:23
You were able to cheese out things and you were able to spend up to 50% of your points for characters, that's it. This doesn't mean much more than it does in 4th edition.

Apollyon
16-08-2006, 22:45
Odd you should mention that I met Andy Chamber at Games Day in TO and spoke of the then (relatively) new 3rd ed. His opinion was that they were 2 completely different games that shared the same game pieces. I would agree. 2nd ed "feels" like a wargame 3/4 "feels" like a tabletop version of a RTS.



Yes, try it as mentioned without the virus thingies and have fun! But don't suppose that it's WH40k like today - it's a completely different game and has a different "feel" to it!

Son of the Lion
16-08-2006, 23:15
Sigur, you did kind of provoke the 2nd ed bashing by asking people what they thought of Dark Millenium. :)
But I digress. In theory 2nd ed was a far superior game to 3rd ed IMO, it's just it CAN be a flaming nightmare to play - not that you shouldn't try of course.
When everyone is familiar enough with the rules to not have to flip through the books every 3 minutes, and people at least pretend to not take advantage of the monster generating character rules, it's the most fun I've had playing a wargame. My group usually removed the OW rule, virus and vortex weapons and limited characters to 25%. But horses for courses and all that.

As for the bickering over the battle report - I remember that one too, and though the ultra captain did indeed carve a substantial swathe through the Orks, it was no worse (or better I guess) than the Emperor's champion's performance in a recent WD BT battle rep .
If you want a herohammer example (as well as proof eldar weren't invincible), my Deathwing Chief Librarian once (with downright beardy use of the DM cards) wiped out around 60% of a 1500pt Eldar Aspect army in 2 turns, Avatar et al. Which is a good reason to leave DM out I guess. And not play bastards like me...


EDIT: And if you want to really push the boat out with complicted but fun rules, give RT a go. Especially if you can find the LatD books. I swear, 500pt skirmishes used to take days to finish.

jimbobodoll
16-08-2006, 23:21
If you want a herohammer example (as well as proof eldar weren't invincible), my Deathwing Chief Librarian once (with downright beardy use of the DM cards) wiped out around 60% of a 1500pt Eldar Aspect army in 2 turns, Avatar et al. Which is a good reason to leave DM out I guess. And not play bastards like me...


You bastard.... :D :angel:

Alsiaie
16-08-2006, 23:29
I own almost every 2nd ed book and wargear cards, including dark millennium. Don't beleive what people tell you when they say use The Marine Hammer. Unless you're playing 10,000 points, don't use marines. (except for space wolves) IG and Eldar are your best choices. Tyranids is actually your worst choice, even under marines.

If you're playing DM, any army can win in a matter of seconds. (even after throwing out vortex grenades AND the virus bomb cards.) All you have to do is randomly draw the spell The Gate (although this works better with vortex grenades). Your psyker puts a gate down within 18" of him. Then places a second within 18" of him again. Move up 6" then drop your first gate near by. Then drop one 18" directly in front of you. Move your entire army though the gate (possible 36+6" move) into your enemy's deployment zone. You may shoot and charge as normal. Have fun. Another cool thing with The Gate is dropping it on enemy models. Place your first gate on your line. Then the second on top of enemy unit(s) or tanks. They automatically get shot through the portal into your deployment zone for your free pickin'

You can also do the opposite. Place your first gate 18" in front of you. Then place another gate 18" away from you but on top of a friendly unit. They automatically get transported to the other side. Again, that's 36" of free movement.

Son of the Lion
16-08-2006, 23:48
Don't forget Lightning Arc. That used to scare the bejesus out of me when playing IG type armies.

@jimbobodoll. Hey, I was fourteen. heh heh.

TTuren
17-08-2006, 06:18
The Gate is not nearly that powerful. Movement to it and from it still uses the units movement allowance and its to small for vehicles. Your lucky to get a squad through the gate running let alone walking so they could still shoot after moving. Try it with more than a squad and the troops get bunched up and they can't shoot through each other. Even a single squad tends to be forced to run and is still clustered after the move.

I have never understood all the complaints about power characters. I just love killing them and have never found them to be that effective. Vehicles are far better than characters who are simply heavy bolter magnets. Of course a simple blind grenade will also stop expensive characters.

Sigur, this is the most complete FAQ that I'm aware of for 2nd Ed. It's a GW product but not 'official' as GW never published a complete list before they destroyed 2nd Ed. http://www.geocities.com/roguetraderheresy/qanda.htm?200517

Spell_of_Destruction
17-08-2006, 06:35
Sadly 2nd ed proved that unless the game designers try and iron out all potential beardy exploitation of army lists/wargear, players will take such combos.

All it required was a bit of restraint (and some house rules) from both parties to be a fun and challenging game.

jimbobodoll
17-08-2006, 11:57
@jimbobodoll. Hey, I was fourteen. heh heh.

Deathwing have always kicked ass and been the epitome of (is this even possible?) a cool smurf army. The only thing i like better than seeing them win games (now without vortex and virus grenades... and also wno psychic phase) is mushing them with MY eldar army... ;)

Smokedog
17-08-2006, 13:01
Waht I would like to see, more than wargear cards is the revival of strategy cards... remember those? Boom there goes you heavy weapon marine! hehe.

Lord Solar Plexus
17-08-2006, 13:16
HEY, tturen! Good to see you around! Long time no see! Still being heretical at heart?:)


So I re-read the 2nd edition rulebook again and those rules (once again) sound so great that I'll ask my group if they like to play a few games under those rules.


The rules aren't bad at all. In fact, we never got into 3rd ed. because we thought 2nd to be much superior, and since we had the mental capacity to figure out AP with dice other than d6 or how to throw grenades.:)

Anyways:



The main point of critique people expressed in the past are overpowered and game-dominating caracters, mostly because of very powerful wargear cards,


The biggest problem(s) was/were that a) you were allowed 50% characters and 50% allies, with a minimum of 25% troops. Therefore, an army could consist dominantly of Exarchs, Inquisitors, Abbadon, Wolf Lords (even more than one) etc.

b) many troops had no chance at all to kill certain characters. While it is still impossible to hurt T8 with S3 today, this was a lot more common back then. Imagine a character with a re-rollable 2+ save on 2d6 PLUS an inv. 3+ save...now try to kill him with most of your guns being -3 ASM, BS3, and -2 to hit...and if you pull that off, more likely than not his five mates with a similar configuration had crippled your force.

I still believe the best change would have been to limit the amount of characters to 0-1 commander, no allied charas, and 10% tops.

On top of that, I always preferred to play something resembling a company, not Rambo & Chuck Norris vs. Jackie Chan & John Wayne.


One battle report summed up the uber-character thing in 2e really well.
An ultramarines captain with a plasma pistol and a power sword... shoots up an Ork trukk


Hu? 7+d6 can hardly penetrate even the tracks.



then makes junk of an Ork Dreadnought without breaking too much of a sweat.


HU?!? With a power sword?!? S5+d6 won't penetrate 20+ or so.



And dont let anyone play Eldar - u only have to randomly pick things in that list to beat anyone.

Powerfist & chainsword,turn-aside blow-crack-shot bright lance-banshee mask-swooping hawk wings.

I win :p

You don't if I flame you first. Flamers against exarchs were so good that we pondered introducing the special wargear item ('Eldar only') "fire extinguisher".

Alsiaie
17-08-2006, 19:25
Eldar warp spiders.

I move 30". I shoot you with ten 11" flamer templates. I cut you. I win.

Apollyon
17-08-2006, 20:02
My heavy bolter or auto cannon in overwatch just killed all your Warpspiders. You loose :evilgrin:


Eldar warp spiders.

I move 30". I shoot you with ten 11" flamer templates. I cut you. I win.

Captain Optimus Metallus
17-08-2006, 21:02
Hu? 7+d6 can hardly penetrate even the tracks.

HU?!? With a power sword?!? S5+d6 won't penetrate 20+ or so.

He. Had. Melta. Bombs. :eyebrows:

Alsiaie
17-08-2006, 21:20
My heavy bolter or auto cannon in overwatch just killed all your Warpspiders. You loose :evilgrin:

JAM! You lose.

Actually I wish JAM was still used in 40k. :( But not overwatch... that's saved only for space hulk these days. :D

TTuren
18-08-2006, 02:38
HEY, tturen! Good to see you around! Long time no see! Still being heretical at heart?:)

Great to see you posting here. I noted your name on the board the other day. I always wondered what happened to you. Don't worry I wont hold 4th against you it's much better than 3rd anyway.

Yes, I'm still a heretic. 2nd Ed. still rules our table top and our group is so large we stopped recruiting a while back so we have no need to change. Alas, the Heresey site itself and its old school culture is dead.



b) many troops had no chance at all to kill certain characters. While it is still impossible to hurt T8 with S3 today, this was a lot more common back then. Imagine a character with a re-rollable 2+ save on 2d6 PLUS an inv. 3+ save...now try to kill him with most of your guns being -3 ASM, BS3, and -2 to hit...and if you pull that off, more likely than not his five mates with a similar configuration had crippled your force.

Thats the toughest possible configuration only possible with Chaos termi's with wargear. Given that they are stuck moving 8" or less a turn they are best ignored, blinded, or stasised. They would represent a huge points total with limited lethality if a player simply moves away from them.

Like most heavily tooled characters in 2nd Ed they can be dealt with at the tactical level. Heavy weapons are a better option in most cases though as even HB's will reliably kill most mega characters. Thats all why I never used mega characters they are simply to soft and unreliable. Although the chaos termi in question here certainly is not soft! (But he is slow!)

With all that said setting character limits in 2nd Ed. is a good idea particularly in regards to Eldar Exarchs...