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malika
20-06-2005, 10:23
Okay...first of all this is not meant as spam or to insult anybody. But the name Ollanius Pious is something that keeps popping up...what is the deal with him? Was he a source of old outdated background?

TenTailedCat
20-06-2005, 10:26
Ollanius Pius was an old, old bit of fluff about an Imperial Guardsman who took part in the final fight between the Emperor and Horus, barely remembered until somebody brought it up at portent which started a 'happy' tradition of inserting his name into any thread which talked about Sanguinius in the Heresy.

PBGhost
20-06-2005, 10:42
Quite frankly the reason people root for him is because the Sanguinius story sucks. Woo, an uber human prince demigod saved an uber human king god from an uber human evil king demigod. Boooring.

Personally, I like the story where Sanguinius does nothing, dies, and an Imperial Fist Terminator saves the Emperor (semi indirectly) from Horus. Ollanius Pious isn't too bad, but it strikes me as a bit too much "Mr President!" Better than Sanguinius though.

malika
20-06-2005, 10:43
Ah okay...in the later fluff it was an Imperial Fist terminator instead of this guardsman?

TenTailedCat
20-06-2005, 10:48
No, there was a bit of fluff about a terminator who walks in, fires a grenade at Horus, Horus looks at him and the guy just explodes, during this time the Emperor focussed a psychic attack at Horus, in this version Sanguinius is strangled by Horus. I don't mind this version, I wouldn't even mind the Ollanius version if it were up to date, but it isn't so I don't see why people insist on whoring it out at every opportunity.

Rathgar
20-06-2005, 10:54
I think he's so popular because he typifies the characteristics that are at the very core of the Imperial Guard.

He's the patron saint of getting shot. :p

Typheron
20-06-2005, 11:04
the Ollanius Pious thing took place on terra in the warmasters bunker, this is instead of on the flagship in orbit. Horus was gonna frag the emp when he was not looking or something and the IG bloke jumps in the way taking the hit and probably being reduced to a fine ash at the same time.

personally i reason that it did happen and it happened like this:

in the early stages of the fight for terra horus was on terra itself in a command bunker leading his troops. The loyal forces lead by the emperor tried a couter attack on said bunker the above happened. Horus then teleported out to his flag ship where he knows he can command the war more effectibly. The loalists are then driven back to the main palce by the chaos forces. He commands from there untill the palace is under seige and lowers his shields. Emp teleports on board with his forces and sanguinious get beaten up and dies, sanginous does this for reasons unknown.

The emp then meets horus and they square off, then in walks said terminator and horus fries him. At this point the combined ruthless killing of both the primarch of the blood angels, the terminator that walks in and all those others hits home and the emperor finally realises something is amis and does what he must do.

well thats what i tell myself anyway.

Delicious Soy
20-06-2005, 12:01
Quite frankly the reason people root for him is because the Sanguinius story sucks. Woo, an uber human prince demigod saved an uber human king god from an uber human evil king demigod. Boooring.Yes it would be boring, if it was in any way correct. Sanguinius was dead by the time the Emperor found Horus. Sanguinius found Horus first, and despite knowing he was going to die and already seriously wounded, refused to flatly to join Horus. Horus then choked him to death with the Talon.

Why is it that people need the 'average guy' in every story? Some guardsman gets totalled by his superior? Booooring. :rolleyes:

TenTailedCat
20-06-2005, 12:08
This fluff is annoying - as if the current three versions of the story weren't enough there's also the version in the Blood Angels Index Astartes which says Sanguinius never even found Horus. Horus used his psychic powers to torment Sanguinius from long range because he knew he was no match for Sanguinius in close combat, eventually killing him with a massive psychic assault.

This version comes from a bit of fluff where BAs who can't control the Black Rage volunteer to be chained up and are encouraged to let the visions come and to talk about them - as much as I'd like to believe it (Sanguinius was the most technically proficient fighter of all the Primarchs - if not the strongest outright) ther eis precedent for the Black Rage visions to be somewhat misleading, if you remember the fluff about Tycho at Armageddon the sequence of events happen slightly differently, with Tycho eventually killing the Ork warlord, but in his mind he though he was Sanguinius and that he'd killed Horus.

DantesInferno
20-06-2005, 12:22
This fluff is annoying - as if the current three versions of the story weren't enough there's also the version in the Blood Angels Index Astartes which says Sanguinius never even found Horus. Horus used his psychic powers to torment Sanguinius from long range because he knew he was no match for Sanguinius in close combat, eventually killing him with a massive psychic assault.


:confused: I'm looking at the IA article now, and I can't find anything to support that "interpretation".

I guess you're looking at this bit:


Sanguinius is thought to have undergone unimaginable psychic damage at the hands of the Warmaster who, it is believed by many Blood Angels, could not best him in personal combat.

Horus, in his limitless malice, made sure that Sanguinius's death was the most painful and foul that the boundless evils in his service could administer. The Warmaster's psychic assault echoed not just throughout space, but also throughout time........

Doesn't say anywhere that they never found each other, or even never faced each other in close combat, only that he made sure that Sanguinius' death was painful, with a psychic assault. Certainly isn't incompatible with other versions involving Horus crippling Sangy in close combat first. Even if you ignore the obvious caveat ("it is believed by many Blood Angels"), just because Horus may not have been able to beat him in combat (which I find extremely dubious), it doesn't mean they never met.

malika
20-06-2005, 12:33
Why wouldnt Horus be able to beat Sanguinius? IIRC Horus was the strongest, most skilled, most bla Primarch of them all, hence him being the Emperor's favorite.

TenTailedCat
20-06-2005, 12:35
Doesn't say anywhere that they never found each other, or even never faced each other in close combat, only that he made sure that Sanguinius' death was painful, with a psychic assault. Certainly isn't incompatible with other versions involving Horus crippling Sangy in close combat first. Even if you ignore the obvious caveat ("it is believed by many Blood Angels"), just because Horus may not have been able to beat him in combat (which I find extremely dubious), it doesn't mean they never met.


No, look further, i'll post it verbatim for you:


"The following account is an excerpt from the descriptions of Chaplin Lestrallio himself, recoreded by a Blood Servitor in 2432053.M36. It remains the longest recorded example of the visions granted by the black rage, a estament to Lestrallio's great strength of will.

"It's dark... aagh! it burns! The Taint is so strong... the smell.. .rot, foul rot and death... it's hot. So hot... I feel my feathers singe, furlign against me to to avoid touching the walls, the walls... this is Hell... thorns, spines pushing through wet flesh <subject goes into spasm><subject screams in rage> Waht's that... What's that!?
So fast! Aaaaah! For the Emperor! Die! DIE!
<Subject falls still, mutters unintelligibly, possibly a prayer>

"Where is he, where is he, you cannot stop me foul CHAOS FILTH! AAAGH!

<Subject spasms, gnashes teeth> curse this light...

Burn! BURN! All of you! <indecipherable> the walls, there are no walls, this tunnel of flesh, rotted flesh, bursting underfoot, bleeding, the stench of pus... <subject screams, then calms>

"I will find you coward."

<six seconds pass, subjects eyes open>

I name you Traitor! Face me! For the Emperor! FOR THE EMPEROR!"


At this point, after a violent spasm that lasted longer than any before and nearly shook his body to pieces, Chaplai Lestrallio died of massive physiological trauma. this is a regrettable side-effect of the Lestrallio procedure, bur one deemed fitting by many among the Blood Angels.

From the collated results of these experiments, it is possible to draw conclusions from the valuable evidence provided by those suffering the Black Rage. sanguinius is thought to have undergone unimaginable psychic damage at the hands of the Warmaster who, it is believed by many Blood Angels, could not best him in personal combat."



Sorry for any poor spelling, it was a rather hurried type-up.

In any case, there's no mention of close combat there...

Also, Horus was the Emperor's favourite beause for a long time Horus was the only Primarch the Emperor had. They found each other long before any of the other Primarchs were discovered. Horus was strong, but not nearly as strong as Leman Russ or Magnus the Red (who rarely used his strength, preffering to focus on metal pursuits) when it comes to sheer ability at fighting Sanguinius wins that one - his combat ability is mentioned in many places.

Kiro
20-06-2005, 12:40
Why do people always rip into Sanguinius? The guy refused to turn, even when it would have saved his life!

TenTailedCat
20-06-2005, 12:47
I don't know and it's a shame.

Sanguinius just seems to gets stick because he isn't a hard-ass nutcase like some of the others, and maybe because he has an image of being a bit of a "pretty-boy". Maybe people don't like the fact that 'their' Primarch is overshadowed by his exploits in the Heresy. In any case, most of them don't have a clue what they're talking about.

Typheron
20-06-2005, 12:51
I name you Traitor! Face me! For the Emperor! FOR THE EMPEROR!


sounds to me like he quite clearly met horus and went on the charge.

We all know that the body of sanginous underwent massive psycological trauma at the hands of the warmaster horus, its what caused the genetic flaws in the chapter today, however i think that this is more a re-telling of what happened to fit the effects opf the black rage on the blood angels and where it comes from. It does not directly say that the massive psycological damgage inflicted is the source of his death, mearly that he suffered it.

also remeber what state sanguinious is in at this point, remember the whole bloodthirster thing back at the eternity gate, all that fight both on the planet and then on the battlebarge. Hes not gonna be at peak fighting strenth going in against horus. And were not talking a primarch horus, were talking a Horus boosted by all 4 chaos gods, he would pwn sanginious easily under those conditions.

TenTailedCat
20-06-2005, 12:54
I know all that, I know he's weak and wounded - I don't care how he dies, I was just pointing out that this is yet another version of his death which I find it hard to believe - remember I said I though the Black Rage visions were misleading, which prompted that post in the first place.

I think you got mixed up somewhere. :D

Anyway, that quote you posted doesn't suggest they met - he was calling out for Horus to face him, if anything that says that Horus was doing his level best to stay away from Sanguinius. But, i'll say it again, I don't think even this is a true account of what happened. It's likely we'll never know for sure.

malika
20-06-2005, 12:58
The Emperor found Sanguinius at Horus' feet, heavily mutilated...

Before the Emperor's arrival Horus tried to get the Blood Angels to side with him.

TenTailedCat
20-06-2005, 13:01
We all know that version mate, what's your point? :D

It's nice that you're taking part, but you kinda need more than that. :)

Typheron
20-06-2005, 13:02
i agree totally and thats not the point im trying to make, sleep deprevation is oviously starting to affect my thinking, not that i make much sence at the best of times.

what im saying is that the account, regardless of how accurate these things are, is not a "new" version of the fluff, simply a re-telling of it from a distorted view as it says nothing about how sanginous dies.

TenTailedCat
20-06-2005, 13:06
Oh well i'll conceed that I guess, I just thought it seemed different from the standard versions enough to be an original take. In a purely literal sense you're right of course, there's no explicit mention of Sanguinius' actual death and it's entiely possible that Chaplain Lestrallio died before reaching the part of the story in which Sanguinius dies, which I've only just realised...

Too much interpretation on my part. *looks embarrassed* :D

Inquisitor Samos
20-06-2005, 13:21
Why do people always rip into Sanguinius? The guy refused to turn, even when it would have saved his life!

Personally , I think that any heresy-spouting good-for-nothings who want to denounce Sanguinius (whose statues and monuments always stand closest to those of the Emperor Himself and who isn't called "Saint Sanguinius" just for looking pretty) can start justifying their right to diss him right after they take on a Bloodthirster of Khorne in single combat and break its back over their knee.........

But that's just my opinion! :skull:

TenTailedCat
20-06-2005, 13:23
Hell yes. Back in Portent I had the "stautes of Sanguinius" quote that you're referencing in my sig.. I have to go and find that again... like.. right now..

edit:

Can't find it. Recently all googles of Sanguinius and Blood Angels have been full of references to that Deus Encarmine and Deus Sanguinius duology, which i never liked. :mad:

x-esiv-4c
20-06-2005, 13:33
Imo the image of Ollanius Pious is more of a tool of the commissariate then anything. I know Tentailedcat would disagree that Pious ever existed but if such a character did it would be to inspire the lowly guardsmen. A story of a regular human aspiring to greatness, a real David & Goliath story to instill the righteous faith of the Emperor in any man.

Propoganda like this would be extremely beneficial in times of strife.

TenTailedCat
20-06-2005, 13:36
I don't deny that he ever existed - he obviously did, but the fluff has moved on. As soon as anyone puts that forward someone comes along saying i'm/we're biased against the Imperial Guard, which to a certain extent is true, but i'm not averse to the Imperial Guard having a part in the Heresy, but lets be brutally honest - a guardsman stopping a shot at the Emperor from Horus?
It's not really going to happen is it? Such an attack would punch through him like wet paper - even the Imperial Fist Terminator was reduced to ash in a moment.

It just doesn't work any longer.

Anvils Hammer
20-06-2005, 13:42
i think its all a plot by the adminstration to hide the truth and make the space marines look good.
what really happend was that sanguinius fought horus, horus killed him easily, then the emperor found horus and lost horrible, horus was about to finnish him off when ollanious Pious and his imperial guard buddys enter the room, 16 melta guns and 5 point blank range lascannon blasts later, Horus is a smoking wreck.

the fluff lies! its imperial propaganda!

TenTailedCat
20-06-2005, 13:45
i think its all a plot by the adminstration to hide the truth and make the space marines look good.
what really happend was that sanguinius fought horus, horus killed him easily, then the emperor found horus and lost horrible, horus was about to finnish him off when ollanious Pious and his imperial guard buddys enter the room, 16 melta guns and 5 point blank range lascannon blasts later, Horus is a smoking wreck.

the fluff lies! its imperial propaganda!

I don't know if I should laugh or cry...

venusianfurs
20-06-2005, 14:12
No, there was a bit of fluff about a terminator who walks in, fires a grenade at Horus, Horus looks at him and the guy just explodes, during this time the Emperor focussed a psychic attack at Horus, in this version Sanguinius is strangled by Horus.
Where is this from?
And the Ollianus Pious thing - where can I read the actual text of this?

There's also the thing about Sanguinus striking a chink in Horus' armour, on his back or collar, I think (though both awkward in terminator armour!) - which is what allows the Emperor to kill him.

I remember a bit in Inquisitor/Draco, which mentions adepts whose job is to edit and rewrite ancient records and annals, according to the interests of the High Lords and the Inquisition (this borrowed from 1984 I think) - such as chapters 2 and 11 maybe, that might explain the confusion over this. In fluff terms, anyway.

TenTailedCat
20-06-2005, 14:21
Where is this from?
And the Ollianus Pious thing - where can I read the actual text of this?

There's also the thing about Sanguinus striking a chink in Horus' armour, on his back or collar, I think (though both awkward in terminator armour!) - which is what allows the Emperor to kill him.

I remember a bit in Inquisitor/Draco, which mentions adepts whose job is to edit and rewrite ancient records and annals, according to the interests of the High Lords and the Inquisition (this borrowed from 1984 I think) - such as chapters 2 and 11 maybe, that might explain the confusion over this. In fluff terms, anyway.

Oh god... erm.. I first read about the Terminator in some book that my local GW store manager lent me back in 2000, I'm sure you'll find it in any HH narrative you find on google.

The thing about Sanguinius forcing the chink in Horus' armour might be from a fanfic in which Sanguinius impales Horus on his Runesword. I've never actually seen that bit of narrative in any official fluff, though it could exist, I haven't read everything about the Blood Angels - yet. :D

Ollanius Pious is (I think) RT era fluff, you'll have a hard time finding that...

charlie_c67
20-06-2005, 14:34
No the chink in armour is official GW fluff.
As fo Pious, if anyone can tell me where it talks about his involvemt I shall try and read it. However, the whol course of fluff changed when things went from RT to 2nd ed and the story of Horus' judgement have been virtually the same since then (the early 90's) I think the reason people don't like the Sanguinus story is cos it reminds them that SM's really are heros not the noob army they sometimes try and make out they are.

TenTailedCat
20-06-2005, 14:43
The guy who first brough Ollanius Pius to everybody's attention is a member here, I can't remember hsi name though. He might pop in here when he sees the thread, so he might be able to provide quotes.

As for the comment about SM being heroes I entirely agree. It's far too easy to say SM are over powered, under priced or whatever. They offer just as much challenge as any other army, perhaps more so since everybody knows the strengths and weaknesses of the Marines.

Tom - Heretic
20-06-2005, 15:09
What would really be useful is a short list of where all these fluff nibbles come from, so we can see which are now gospel and which are outdated, resigned to being discussed on internet forums to the benefit of nothing and noone :(.

That said, Ollanius Pious was obviously a Praetorian guard :D.
Evidence: He found himself in a hot, foreign environment and just got angry at the natives (probably because they didn't know what a chip cob is)

TenTailedCat
20-06-2005, 15:11
Well I think the most recent version is the one I posted from the BAs IA, but it's rarely that simple, I think anything from 3rd ed can be considered as canon for now, but even there you can probably find conflciting accounts.

Lord Lucifer
20-06-2005, 15:30
The 'chink in the armour' theory is valid, and official GW background.
The text stated directly that some believe Sanguinius' sword cut into Horus' armour which the Emperor later exploited, but some accounts hold that this was not the case.

This was in the same text, that stated quite categorically that the truth of the matter is not known either way

If need be I can quote the entire story

TenTailedCat
20-06-2005, 15:34
Go for it, the more the merrier! :)

Hellebore
20-06-2005, 16:21
The 'chink in the armour' theory is valid, and official GW background.
The text stated directly that some believe Sanguinius' sword cut into Horus' armour which the Emperor later exploited, but some accounts hold that this was not the case.

This was in the same text, that stated quite categorically that the truth of the matter is not known either way

If need be I can quote the entire story


The only time I saw that story was in 2nd ed stuff, I have not seen it in anything from 3rd onward. (I can't even find the info in my 2nd ed stuff- but I know it's there because I remember reading it and thinking cool!)

The Olianus Pious thing is from Rogue Trader, it has the banner he carried in it and a reference to him being the patron saint of the guard because of his bravery (and I can't find the info about HIM either :rolleyes: ).


hellebore

TenTailedCat
20-06-2005, 16:28
This is my problem with Ollanius Pious - people don't still refer to Leman Russ as a tank commander of the Imperial Guard - but that's how he was in the olden days, so why must they insist on bringing up Ollanius?

charlie_c67
20-06-2005, 16:31
Same reason the Squats keep getting brought up perhaps?

TenTailedCat
20-06-2005, 16:32
And what reason is that?

charlie_c67
20-06-2005, 16:53
People don't like it when things move on. They don't want change they want things to stay comfortable. I admit there were aspects of the squats I liked and I do think their demise could've been better handled, like integrating them into the IG or something. But they were removed fairly early on in the 2nd edition and I can see why people like andy chambers et al get so pissed off 10 years later when they're still being asked if the squats are coming back.

Khaine's Messenger
20-06-2005, 17:26
The whole Pius thing is more a bit of Portent historical trivia (and a more immediate one than plumbing the depths to recall if you remember a user named "Jonathan") than a real background quibble.


The guy who first brough Ollanius Pius to everybody's attention is a member here, I can't remember hsi name though.

That would be Brimstone, although slightly before the whole Ollanius Pius thing started to get "supremely annoying" and brought down the wrath of the mods (who else saw and/or participated in the rather lengthy poll-thread in 40kGeneral about whether you preferred Pius or Sangy?), he said that he regretted ever bringing it up. At the time, I believe he meant for it to be a bit of "neat trivia" to provide more background to a thread discussing various interpretations and the history of how the Emperor vs. Horus confrontation played out/changed over time. Incognito and the RHUF (?) brigade were the ones who started the whole championing thing, and apparently hit a nerve with the aforementioned thread. I don't see what's so annoying about the whole idea (although the Pius vs. Sangy thread got pretty heated, with irrelevant debates on "whose sacrifice was greater"--and I'll admit I tried to cash in on the Pius "side"...much to my embarassment, really), and I think that it's only started to pop up in threadjacks because it became a sort of portent counter-culture much like price threads on the GWMB (not to mention a rallying cry for Guard-lovers and others who enjoy going at length to point out the "popularity" of Space Marine armies).

To be honest, I thought it was rather cute at the time, and I even devoted a couple made-up sigs to it~

"All good subjects of the God Emperor of Mankind's Most Benevolent Imperium should squeal before they die. Just like Ollanius Pius."--Edict-Marshall Gruum, founder, The Traitor Legions for Ollanius Pius Committee

"Ollanius Pius? Oh, right, him.... So I was standing there, and there was the Emperor and Horus, right, and right as the Emperor was about to get Horus right in the teeth, Ollanius jumps in the way screaming, 'Don't worry, I'll save you!' Poor soul. Can't for the life of me think who he was trying to save, because no man in his right mind would try to save Horus, am I right?"--Testimony of Pvt. Karl Raad, executed heretic, classified; unsealed by the Traitor Legions for Ollanius Pius Committee

Captain Brown
20-06-2005, 17:30
Imo the image of Ollanius Pious is more of a tool of the commissariate then anything. I know Tentailedcat would disagree that Pious ever existed but if such a character did it would be to inspire the lowly guardsmen. A story of a regular human aspiring to greatness, a real David & Goliath story to instill the righteous faith of the Emperor in any man.

Propaganda like this would be extremely beneficial in times of strife.

Ah this thread again...

I would agree with the assumption forwarded by x-esiv-4c, quoted above.

For those who are interested, the story comes from White Dwarf 109 when the original Imperial Guard Army list came out. It was for the Rogue Trader Edition of 40K. The only mention (if I remember correctly) was in some artwork of a Guard unit advancing (old Round Helmet and Zebra Stripe Camouflage Pattern), in the caption it mentions that the image on the standard is that of Ollanius Pious and it adds the story about how he threw himself between Horus and the Emperor, etc.

TenTailedCat
20-06-2005, 17:33
I was part of the Pius Vs Sanguinius thread. Being a bit of a hardcore Blood Angels player I found it annoying, bein g a SM player is tough enough with all the n00b calls whenever I unpack for a game, I don't need the heart ripped out of my army fluff aswell, especially considering that the fulff is the sole reason I play Marines.

I'm glad this thread has managed to avoid degenerating to the level of the thread at Portent, I hope we can keep some semblance of maturity going here.

EDIt:
Can anyone post this bit of Ollanius fluff? Ever since Ollanius was first brought up on portent i've been itching to see this story, it'd be nice to collect all the various bits of fluff here.

Captain Brown
20-06-2005, 17:36
EDIt:
Can anyone post this bit of Ollanius fluff? Ever since Ollanius was first brought up on portent i've been itching to see this story, it'd be nice to collect all the various bits of fluff here.

Did you read my post?

TenTailedCat
20-06-2005, 17:37
Yes, but I'd be more interested to read a whole transcription of it, if anyone could manage that.

Adept
20-06-2005, 17:54
Personally, I love the fact that we actually get all these conflicting reports of the actual event. It makes it so much more realistic, like an actual mythic event or conflict from our own history.

Khaine's Messenger
20-06-2005, 17:59
Yes, but I'd be more interested to read a whole transcription of it, if anyone could manage that.

Maybe Brimstone could be coaxed out of his guilt-complex over the whole affair. ;) Kidding, kidding.

Mind you, the quote used to be up in the archives, but since the "crash" it's been gone, but for some reason search engines still pull it up with just enough sample text to give about half the quote before trailing off into ellipses.

And I too agree with x-esive-4c and others...even if it isn't "true," it is fairly decent propaganda.

Berynius
20-06-2005, 21:02
Okay here it is. i have taken this quota from the Warhammer 40K Compendium.


The large banner on the right "F" company's banner, carried - as is tradition - by members of hte 1st Platoon. It bears the scrolls of no less than five actions for which the company was highly commended. The central figur is an image of Ollanius Pius, the Guardsman who is supposed to have given his life by interposing his body betwenen Horus and the Emperor duing the assault on the Imperial Palace. He is now regarded as something of a saint by the Guard, and on occasions is even prayed to as an intercessionary figure.

The astaut reader will no doubt see that this version, could be interpreted in a way where the "Pius Incident" took place during an unrecorded assault on the Imperial Palace some time before the final fight between the Emperor and Horus. As to why this incident has been left out of the history book... Who knows ;)

Edit for spelling

TenTailedCat
20-06-2005, 21:10
Thanks for this Berynius.

Rather curious, isn't it?

Berynius
21-06-2005, 09:00
Yes it is curious. If we study the text closely we can see that it make no definitive statement about the existence of Ollanius Pius.


the Guardsman who is supposed to have given his life by interposing his body betwenen Horus and the Emperor duing the assault on the Imperial Palace

Also we are confronted by the image of Horus personally leading the assault on the Imperial Palace.
From the text on could almost imagine that this incident took place on the very walls of the Imperial Palace.
Something which is not mentioned in "newfluff" this leaves the possibility that both stories are true. And that two seperate persons actually helped the Emperor at different times during the Siege of Terra.

Skander
21-06-2005, 09:26
I remember asking the name of this Ollanius Pious maybe a couple of years ago, but nobody knew who I was speaking about... Obviously, it had to happen before the troubles TenTailedCat speaks about...

TenTailedCat
21-06-2005, 10:37
There is of course the problem that Horus never left his 'command leviathon' which I presume was some variant of a Battle Barge which is why the Emperor had to go to him.

About the closest thing to a confrontation on Terra would be when the battle stopped as Sanguinius (yet again :D ) stood on the parapet walls of the Palace and Angron stepped forwards, they appear to have communicated telepathically with each other for a moment (though what they said isn't recorded) before Angron turned away and said to his men: "Kill them all, there will be no surrender."

Apart from this there's no mention of any Primarchs or the Emperor coming into contact with each other until Rogal Dorn and Sanguinius are forced to retreat withing the Ultimate Gate and speak to the Emperor in his throne room.

However, from what I can gather there were some Imperial guard in the Palace itself, and perhaps even in the throne room, so given all that it's possible that some Imperial Guard accompanied the Emperor to Horus' ship, but if you assume that the Teleporter can only send a set number of men to the ship and you were the Emperor, would you take an Imperial Guardsman (however brave and strong) or a Space Marine veteran in Terminator armour?

charlie_c67
21-06-2005, 10:47
So really all Pius was doing was a "Look out Sir!" in front of the walls. Not, as some people claim, in the battle Barge/Bunker. Therefore the timeframe of RT mixed with Current fluff looks a lil more feasable. Something like....

Imperial Palace walls breached
The big E assists in holding back the tide of filth led by Horus
Pius gives his life at the foot of the walls (perhaps he was a bateman/orderly?)
Horus hears of the DA's and SW's coming and pulls out of that particular fight
Horus gets back to the barge and lowers his pants...err sheilds
The big E, blinded by Magnus or knowing it's his destiny, grabs a few termis, Dorn and Sangy and teleports onto the barge.
Sangy finds Horus and they fight, angel boy wounds Horus but still dies.
The emperor find Horus and a broken Sangy and picks a fight.
In the middle of it an IF termi finds his way through and gets fragged after charging in both feet first (sounds like a recent war...)
Big daddy E kills Horus but is mortally wounded.
Dorn arrives to late. Again :D. But manages to but the E in a special bubble.

Typheron
21-06-2005, 11:18
ill go with that.

remeber that theres a lot of history been lost from the imperium either by it being placed out of reach of everyone so that its contents can never be discovered or by it being filed somewhere that no-one goes any more or distroyed in the fighting itself.

So its quite possable that theres more to the tale than is told in the current imperial archives.

as for the IG that went with the emp to the battle barge, its said that they all went insane on arrival due to the horrific changes that had been wrought on the ship by the foul powers of chaos.

Lord Lucifer
21-06-2005, 13:31
'During the assault on the Imperial Palace' doesn't necessarily mean Horus himself led a frontal assault on the walls
The war itself was the assault on the massive Imperial Palace, the final confrontation between the Emperor and Horus was the climax of the assault on the Imperial Palace.
Ollanius could've snuffed it at any point between Horus arriving and Horus dying, and the statement would be accurate in terms of WHEN he died.

The only time a personal confrontation is known to have taken place was when Horus deactivated his ships shields, and the Emperor and his best men (two primarchs and veteran terminators) teleported onto the barge and fought their way to Horus

It's probably safe to assume the warmaster who directed the Imperial armies in a capacity second only to the Emperor himself, was no doubt in his command vessal the whole time, directing the armies he had at his disposal, as he was quite proficient at doing.

The fact that his dropping of the shields is seen as such an important moment that HAD to be seized no matter the risk, I very much doubt anyone had a chance to personally confront Horus until that point. Otherwise they would've done so earlier, and the significance of the moment wouldn't have been stated so clearly as it is


I think you'd have to fit Ollanius Pious into that incedent, but currently, I don't see how it could add to the story.

TenTailedCat
21-06-2005, 13:36
What you just said is exactly right. In the current edition there's simply no way that Ollanius Pious ever performed the acts attributed to him. He's outweighed by three subsequent editions of fluff.

x-esiv-4c
21-06-2005, 13:43
Quick question: Why did Horus lower the shields on his barge and how did the Emperor know that the shields were lowered?

TenTailedCat
21-06-2005, 13:48
Horus lowered his shields because the Drak Angels and DSpace Wolves were about to arrive at Terra. The Emperor knew because although his body was in the throne room his spirit was all over the place. There was a psychic duel with Horus at one point which Sanguinius witnessed. As soon as Horus' shield dropped the Emperor 'felt' it through the warp.

charlie_c67
21-06-2005, 13:50
Horus dropped them as a direct challenge to the emperor saying in effect "Nyah nyah nyah you can't get me!"

Barbarossa
21-06-2005, 14:00
Hofflenosh, all of this! No one will change his mind just by reading the same tired arguments we've heard since the subject was brought up on Portent. I say: let everyone believe what he wants and move on to other debates.

charlie_c67
21-06-2005, 14:05
Why? That's the point of a place like this, to debate, put forth theories, correct erronious data and expand peoples knowledge all without flaming.

TenTailedCat
21-06-2005, 14:05
Hofflenosh, all of this! No one will change his mind just by reading the same tired arguments we've heard since the subject was brought up on Portent. I say: let everyone believe what he wants and move on to other debates.

Oi, we're keeping a perfectly civil discussion here, if you don't like it don't post. it's not a difficult concept to grasp and you've added absolutely nothing to the topic. Isn't that considered spam?

x-esiv-4c
21-06-2005, 14:09
Horus lowered his shields because the Drak Angels and DSpace Wolves were about to arrive at Terra.

:wtf: why would he lower his shields because 2 more chapters showed up? As for challanging the Emperor directly at his moment of triumph, seems a little arrogant no?

venusianfurs
21-06-2005, 14:11
Exactly, I think.

charlie_c67
21-06-2005, 14:11
That sums up a lot of what Horus was about, he was arrogant enough to believe he could master chaos, look where that got him!

Barbarossa
21-06-2005, 14:17
Oi, we're keeping a perfectly civil discussion here, if you don't like it don't post. it's not a difficult concept to grasp and you've added absolutely nothing to the topic. Isn't that considered spam?

The whole St. Pious vs. Sanguinius debate doesn't add anything. It's repeated every 3 or 4 months with the same arguments and counter-arguments being made and people just generally getting winded up about it. So following your logic, the whole topic would be spam.

TenTailedCat
21-06-2005, 14:28
:wtf: why would he lower his shields because 2 more chapters showed up? As for challanging the Emperor directly at his moment of triumph, seems a little arrogant no?


Horus had already suffered massive losses in storming the Palace (it's easily the most easily defendable fortress in the Imperium, perhaps ever, remember?) and couldn't afford to fight a war on two fronts - the Dark Angels and Space Wolves were relatively unscathed. While he's trying to combat those he has no way of knowing if the Ultramarines are going to turn up and really spoiling the party.

Lowering his shields and inviting the Emperor to fight was his best chance of making the decisive blow before the war dscended into a stalemate.

Skander
21-06-2005, 15:00
I remember reading somewhere that the lowering of the shields was thougth to be the last act of resistance of the "good Horus" against the Dark Side, for calling it somehow. But then the theory of the trap and the urge to finish the war appeared in the fluff and that little moment of weakness on the Warmasterīs side was forgotten...

x-esiv-4c
21-06-2005, 15:11
Well, technically he didn't have to be TOO concerned with the DA ( angels of death book ). And why did the war end so promptly after the fated battle? Surely there were Chaos generals who could continue the fight.

TenTailedCat
21-06-2005, 16:07
When the Chaos gods released themselves from horus the demons in the force became unstable, and without Horus' leadership none of the other Primarchs wanted to continue the fight I presume. Plus the imminent arrival of the loyalists. Mostly I think it's just a plot device though.

charlie_c67
21-06-2005, 16:08
Well the Black Legion pulled out as soon as Horus copped it, the 1k sons were already out, the alpha legion was spreading itself around, half the word bearers had just had their ass handed to them on a plate in Ultramar, the night Lords were running round all over the place.

That left the rest of the Word bearers, the emperors children (traditionally the smallest legion), the World eaters (no idea of numbers though cos they were throwing themselves at the walls), the Iron warriors and the Death guard to deal with the WS, IF and BA's that were still around, the on-coming SW's and DA's, the newly "re-born" RG and the majority of the huge Ultra forces would also have started to get moving. Plus there's the fact that none of the remaining traitor primarchs were charismatic enough to hold everything together.

The EC and WB's would've been at each others throats, Lorgar would've been looked on as a religious extremist and everyone had a different style of fighting. Pretty huge task to have to try and handle.

TenTailedCat
21-06-2005, 16:10
It should be noted that the Emperors Children took no part whatsoever in storming the palace, instead they were running amok in the hab units and hive cities slaughtering the civilians.

Doesn't leave much of a fighting force really...

charlie_c67
21-06-2005, 16:11
Plus they wear girly pink ;)

TenTailedCat
21-06-2005, 16:13
I happen to be a big fan of the pre-heresy Emperors Children... But yes.. pink.. seriously - you're a noise marine looking for the most extreme sensory stimulus you can get after 10,000 years of drug abuse, murder, rape and violence. And pastel pink armour is the best you can come up with..?

x-esiv-4c
21-06-2005, 16:15
Well, it's quite disconcerting seeing a 8 foot man-monster carrying a mass-reactive launching semi-automatic weapon and a cod-piece that would make Voldo blush...

Pastel pink...just adds to the "mad-clown-postal worker-mass rapist-defiler of animals" madness.

TheSonOfAbbadon
21-06-2005, 16:24
Didn't they wear purple pre-heresey?

I believe that the Ollanius Pius is outdated and therefore wrong.


a 8 foot man-monster

7 foot man-monster [everyone thinks they're 8 feet tall! They're tall, but they're not that tall, at least, most of them aren't anyway].

x-esiv-4c
21-06-2005, 16:27
I stand corrected! either way a very scary thing indeed.

charlie_c67
21-06-2005, 16:33
Out dated? Not really. Wrong? No. If he's someone who the average IG grunt can look at, say "We can be heroes too", take pride in that fact and go on to greater feats then all the better. It's up there with one of my scouts taking out a LC wielding termi with nothing more than a popgun and a knife....

Damage,Inc.
21-06-2005, 17:18
Also, Horus was the Emperor's favourite beause for a long time Horus was the only Primarch the Emperor had. They found each other long before any of the other Primarchs were discovered. Horus was strong, but not nearly as strong as Leman Russ or Magnus the Red (who rarely used his strength, preffering to focus on metal pursuits) when it comes to sheer ability at fighting Sanguinius wins that one - his combat ability is mentioned in many places.[/QUOTE]

Actually, It was Lion El'Johnson- that's why the DA becamse the FIRST Legion.

Sanginious sucks because he's so over rated compared to every onther Primarch. He's always the main focal point and always seems so goody goody without having any negatives.

Horus would have whipped his ass. The Primarchs were pretty much equal in terms of abilities, Horus was the greatest Strategist and tactician amongst them (hence why the Emperor loved him so much), plus he was on his home ground and possessed byt he power of FOUR Chaos Gods. Posession tends to make normal people suerpowerful, imagine what it makes supermen into. That's another reason the Emperor's triumph over Horus, even while half dead, is so much more remarkable and tragic. HE probably could have smited him at any time on the Barge if he wasn't trying to save his old friend.

charlie_c67
21-06-2005, 17:36
Sorry to disappoint you but,


It is thought that he was the first of the Primarchs to be recovered by the Emperor, having been cast much closer to Terra than the others, and was found at a much younger age. As a result, Horus was for many years the Emperor's only son,

Damage,Inc.
21-06-2005, 20:44
Dammit! GW change the fluff more times than Walmart changes prices!

Typheron
21-06-2005, 21:07
Hofflenosh, all of this!


i think not, the discussion is not about is it this or that, its now about how it could fit into the current fluff and wither or not he even existed at all in all tellings of the tale.

i like to think that most of the older outdated fluff can stil be used as long as its reviewed and fitted in somewhere relivant so it makes sence.


I believe that the Ollanius Pius is outdated and therefore wrong.


see my above statement, im using this as a way of reuniting the new fluff with its older lost brother, well in my head at least. Also what is wrong? only the sith deal in absolutes...


I remember reading somewhere that the lowering of the shields was thougth to be the last act of resistance of the "good Horus" against the Dark Side, for calling it somehow.

no one really know why he did it, it could be it was to chalenge the emp, it could be a technical glitch or it could be this. Alkthough i personally think that it was a challenge given the arogance and need to end the war quickly. Cut of the head and the body dies and all that.

i stop paying attention for a few hours and look what happens...

sigur
21-06-2005, 22:21
I like Sanguinius' part in the whole "Siege of Terra" epic very much; no idea why people don't like him. The story of Ollanius Pius is also pretty cool, but the Siege of the Imperial Palace and all connected stories seem so apocalyptic and legendary that feeble humans have no real place in it.

By the way, there is no thing like "outdated fluff". ;)

Sir Charles
21-06-2005, 23:42
I don't deny that he ever existed - he obviously did, but the fluff has moved on. As soon as anyone puts that forward someone comes along saying i'm/we're biased against the Imperial Guard, which to a certain extent is true, but i'm not averse to the Imperial Guard having a part in the Heresy, but lets be brutally honest - a guardsman stopping a shot at the Emperor from Horus?
It's not really going to happen is it? Such an attack would punch through him like wet paper - even the Imperial Fist Terminator was reduced to ash in a moment.

It just doesn't work any longer.

Couldn't he just been trying to shoot the Emperor, with his bolter? I haven't seen the quote recently but does it say that Pious how Pious was killed.

Still I don't see why so many people are against the compromise version, that Pious took a hit for the Emperor on planet and Sanguinus got driven nuts and killed on the Battle Barge. There everyones happy, exept the Exlisiarch stuck with the job of explaining why the God-Emperor of Terra needed to be rescued so often ;)

TenTailedCat
22-06-2005, 00:00
It's all supposition (and pretty bad suppostiton). There's no mention of it anywhere, and by such logic I could argue that Ollaniu Pious doesn't exist as of 2nd edition, because he isn't ever mentioned.


The Emperor taking an active part in the Battle for Terra would be a major part of the fluff - there are very few references to the Emperor fighting in combat, with the exception of duels with the Primarchs, and a bit where he fought against Orks alongside Horus if I remember correctly, that's pretty much it.

The God Emperor takes part in the most apocalyptic combat Terra has ever seen and everybody just forgets? Hardly.

Getz
22-06-2005, 00:00
Still I don't see why so many people are against the compromise version, that Pious took a hit for the Emperor on planet and Sanguinus got driven nuts and killed on the Battle Barge. There everyones happy, exept the Exlisiarch stuck with the job of explaining why the God-Emperor of Terra needed to be rescued so often ;)

I couldn't agree with you more. In the infamous Pious V Sangy thread most Pious fans were suggesting that this was the most rational interpretation. I hate to sound biased, but if memory serves it was the BA fans who wouldn't have any of it, (and, for that matter, were doing most of the flaming).

Personally I jumped ship on that thread when it dissolved into a lot of BA players saying that the IG weren't fit to lick their boots, and a lot of IG players squaring up to them and uttering macho things like "Yeah, says you!"

TenTailedCat
22-06-2005, 00:04
As has been said many times - I have no problem with Ollanius Pious if you can prove the validity of the fluff current with 3rd/4th edition. Leman Russ isn't an Imperial Guard Tank Commander any more, is he? Space Marines aren't drug pumped psycho's, just as likely to murder you and steal your wallet as protect you anymore - but they were in the early editions.

Times have changed.

Sir Charles
22-06-2005, 00:05
It's all supposition (and pretty bad suppostiton). There's no mention of it anywhere, and by such logic I could argue that Ollaniu Pious doesn't exist as of 2nd edition, because he isn't ever mentioned.


The Emperor taking an active part in the Battle for Terra would be a major part of the fluff - there are very few references to the Emperor fighting in combat, with the exception of duels with the Primarchs, and a bit where he fought against Orks alongside Horus if I remember correctly, that's pretty much it.

The God Emperor takes part in the most apocalyptic combat Terra has ever seen and everybody just forgets? Hardly.

Absence of evidence is not Evidence of Absence.

Just because it is not mentioned directly dosen't mean it didn't happen or that it can't be used to explain holes in the fluff.

TenTailedCat
22-06-2005, 00:07
That would be true were it not for the fact that the Horus heresy is so well documented.

In this case there certainly is evidence of abscense. The Emperor never fought on Terra, if he had done there is no way that it would have been left out of 20 years of fluff combined.

Sir Charles
22-06-2005, 00:12
So what was he doing the whole ime during the seige?

TenTailedCat
22-06-2005, 00:14
He was in the Throne room, but his spirit was flying over the battlefield, communicating with the Loyal primarchs, there's mention of brief psychic communication with Horus at one point and that's it. As soon as he realises that Horus' shields are down his spirit returns to his body and they teleport to the Warmasters ship.

DantesInferno
22-06-2005, 01:29
It seems the Emperor was still caught in shock and denial of the full scale of the rebellion, allowing Sanguinius and his Blood Angels to primarily defend the outer walls. From the Bill King story of the end of the Heresy:



From his throne the Emperor watches his warriors mill around in confusion. This hall holds ten thousand men, seasoned veterans, and all now panicking. He knows they are more frightening by his silence than by the enemy. They look to him for leadership and he can give them none.

For the first time in his millennia-long life the Emperor knows despair. The magnitude of his defeat stuns him. The lunar bases have fallen. Most of the earth is under the Warmaster's heel. Rebel Titans, towering 30 feet high, surround the palace and are held at bay only by the desperate efforts of a few loyalists. It is only a matter of time before the palace's defences fail and the last bastions of resistance fall.

"Sire, what are your orders?" asks Rogal Dorn, massive dark-haired Primarch of the Imperial Fists. His golden armour has lost its lustre, is dented in a dozen places by bolter shells. The Emperor doesn't answer. He is lost within himself seeking answers to his own questions.

He has come at last to the dark place, the time of testing, the era hidden from his precognition vision and beyond which he cannot see. The moment he has always dreaded has arrived. Is my time over, he wonders? Is this where it all ends? Is this why I have reached the limits of my prophetic powers. Is this where I die?

He felt bewildered. Even now, the Traitor Warmaster's forces were battering at the gate, he finds it difficult to believe that he has been betrayed.

Horus was more than a trusted comrade, more like a favoured son. Of all the Primarchs the Emperor relied on him most. Not for a second had the Emperor doubted him, not even when word had come from the Savage Worlds that the Warmaster was gathering forces. He had deluded himself that Horus must have good reason to do so without consulting him. I should have been warned by the failure of my precognition, he thinks.


Even as the forces are battering down the final gates, the Emperor is struggling to grasp the scale of the Heresy. Hardly sounds like someone who's just been fighting on the walls of his palace.

Also, there's evidence that Horus never even set foot on Earth, but was watching in orbit the whole time with his Sons of Horus in reserve. It's impossible to see how the two could have met on Terra before the final battle in the current status of the background.

Unfortunately for Pius followers, it simply isn't possible to have him in there any more. And you can't teleport him up with the Emperor either - that's just silly. Marines, Termies, (possibly Custodes) only on Horus' battlebarge - no Guard!

Delicious Soy
22-06-2005, 02:09
Horus had already suffered massive losses in storming the Palace (it's easily the most easily defendable fortress in the Imperium, perhaps ever, remember?) and couldn't afford to fight a war on two fronts - the Dark Angels and Space Wolves were relatively unscathed. While he's trying to combat those he has no way of knowing if the Ultramarines are going to turn up and really spoiling the party.

Lowering his shields and inviting the Emperor to fight was his best chance of making the decisive blow before the war dscended into a stalemate.THat was part of it. The other part was that he wanted to see the Emperor's final moments for himself, so he lowered the shields to bear witness psychically. The Emperor sensed him and the rest of history.

Pius could not have been on the battlebarge for another goood reason too, the insanity of the place. UPon being teleported aboard, several of the marines were sent mad by the sight of it. These were marines that had spent the last few months doing battle with all manner of Chaotic horrors, yet they were still broken by what they saw. I doubt that a regular guardsman would be able to deal with horrrors that break the will of hardened Space Marine veteran.

TenTailedCat
22-06-2005, 02:15
THat was part of it. The other part was that he wanted to see the Emperor's final moments for himself, so he lowered the shields to bear witness psychically. The Emperor sensed him and the rest of history.


You're quite right, I'd forgotten that.
I do remember something about Horus wanting to "feast on the father of Mankinds soul". Thanks for reminding me.

Darius Rhiannon
22-06-2005, 05:47
As has been said many times - I have no problem with Ollanius Pious if you can prove the validity of the fluff current with 3rd/4th edition. Leman Russ isn't an Imperial Guard Tank Commander any more, is he? Space Marines aren't drug pumped psycho's, just as likely to murder you and steal your wallet as protect you anymore - but they were in the early editions.

Umm, sorry, while it is True that Leman Russ is now the name of Space Marine Primarch, it doesn't mean that there also wasn't a Guard commander called Leman Russ.

I know a man called Alexander and he is not that great....

But as to the space marines being drug pumped psychos being as likely to slaughter you for no good reason.

That is still true. Witness the actions of the Iron Hands on that hive world whose Imperial Governor Led them astray, whose population rose up and deposed him and what did the Iron hands do? Killed one in three of the population that was loyal enough to rise against their governor when he fell from the path.

And they need their drug treatments to survive what has been done to their bodies...

So drug crazed psycho's? Yes.

Skander
22-06-2005, 09:33
Another possibility to have Pious in the current fluff may be sublimation. 10000 years have passed snce the Heresy... Itīs enough time for such a process to come to reality. Pious saving the Emp from a direct shot and giving his life in the process could be a metaphore of the Imperial guard taking the hardest of the fight while the Legions took part on chirurgical (to some scale, I mean) operations.
This kind of thing happens in reality on timeframes sensibly shorter than 10k years, so I think we can accept this explanation.
On the other hand, Sangyīs story... Space marines have their own archives and traditions. What is more, their life span is significantly longer than that of common men, so for them 10k years are not such a big lap, and the loss of info should be smaller. And then, thereīs the black rage, of course. Itmay be biassed by each marines own counciusness, but the visions seem to be similar, so thestory as the Angels know it may be the correct one. But just for them, I point you. They canīt go telling everyone about those visions without atracting too much attention on a sensible matter, and they wonīt do.
So we, as players, know that the Blood Angels are possibly right and Pious never existed. But for the common man in the Imperium, after 10k years, the Heresy is a far away mith, the Fall From Grace of the 40th millenium, and stories from that time donīt need to be accurate. People believed for several millenia that God created women fron Adanīs rib, so I see no problem for guardsmen to believe that one Ollanius Pious saved once the Emp from a direct blow.

charlie_c67
22-06-2005, 09:37
As has been said many times - I have no problem with Ollanius Pious if you can prove the validity of the fluff current with 3rd/4th edition. Leman Russ isn't an Imperial Guard Tank Commander any more, is he? Space Marines aren't drug pumped psycho's, just as likely to murder you and steal your wallet as protect you anymore - but they were in the early editions.

Times have changed.

Heh, reminds me of the thread asking bout what marines from different chapters would do if they were on patrol and a little girl ran out in front of them to catch her ball...

And the Leman Russ? Is named after the SW primarch. There is now no doubt about that.

You can say Pious didn't save the Emperor from a direct blow if you take into account the he and Horus didn't confront each other till the meeting on the barge. No normal man would've survived on there making it inpossible for pious to be aboard.

TenTailedCat
22-06-2005, 10:32
Umm, sorry, while it is True that Leman Russ is now the name of Space Marine Primarch, it doesn't mean that there also wasn't a Guard commander called Leman Russ.

I know a man called Alexander and he is not that great....

But as to the space marines being drug pumped psychos being as likely to slaughter you for no good reason.

That is still true. Witness the actions of the Iron Hands on that hive world whose Imperial Governor Led them astray, whose population rose up and deposed him and what did the Iron hands do? Killed one in three of the population that was loyal enough to rise against their governor when he fell from the path.

And they need their drug treatments to survive what has been done to their bodies...

So drug crazed psycho's? Yes.

You've cleverly twisted my words - you know exactly what I meant - the Space Marines used to be little better than criminals (wasn't there a nice little pic in the old days of someone scrawling anti-marine graphiti on a wall?) now they're portrayed as Knightly Orders, with lots of prayer time, fasting, meditation and ritual.

As for Leman Russ - he was explicitly mentioned in the Fluff, and now he isn't, and current fluff has the Leman Russ as being named in honour of the Space Wolves Primarch.

Sephiroth
22-06-2005, 11:05
You've cleverly twisted my words - you know exactly what I meant - the Space Marines used to be little better than criminals (wasn't there a nice little pic in the old days of someone scrawling anti-marine graphiti on a wall?) now they're portrayed as Knightly Orders, with lots of prayer time, fasting, meditation and ritual.

Well, you helped me out with that Tau/Tyranid bit, only fair I should return the favour. :)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v289/Zekk/graffiti.gif

This the one?

TenTailedCat
22-06-2005, 11:14
Yeah sure is! :D

Marines as police forces... times really have changed...

Tom - Heretic
22-06-2005, 11:19
" marines LOL?"

TenTailedCat
22-06-2005, 11:20
I doubt that :D

I remembered it as "Marines suck" but it can't be that, obviously....

Check out how short the marines in that picture are... the punk seems to be taller than them actually :D

Lord Lucifer
22-06-2005, 12:49
My guess would be 'Marines out'

venusianfurs
22-06-2005, 13:11
Tentailedcat, who is your avatar of?

TenTailedCat
22-06-2005, 13:36
Mana, guitarist and songwriter of Malice Mizer and Moi Dix Mois. Have a proper picture or two:
http://img203.echo.cx/img203/5170/glb916cn.jpg
http://img92.echo.cx/img92/9150/glb1052bb.jpg

And yeah "Marines Out" seems feasible.
The point is, everything has changed in 40k to some extent...

Adept
22-06-2005, 14:02
You've cleverly twisted my words - you know exactly what I meant - the Space Marines used to be little better than criminals (wasn't there a nice little pic in the old days of someone scrawling anti-marine graphiti on a wall?) now they're portrayed as Knightly Orders, with lots of prayer time, fasting, meditation and ritual.

As for Leman Russ - he was explicitly mentioned in the Fluff, and now he isn't, and current fluff has the Leman Russ as being named in honour of the Space Wolves Primarch.

Well, thats just the great thing about 40K fluff, particularly the history. There are only the really basic details of what happened that are repeated with any regularity or clarity. Maybe on some worlds, Marines are seen as criminalistic thugs. Why should we take the written stories of the heresy and Horus's confrontation with the Emperor as literal descriptions of the event?

I liken it to stories today like Robin Hood, King Arthur, Beowulf, and so on. All potentially 'real' people, but no-one knows for sure how they lived or what happened. I like the uncertainty we get from various versions of the fluff. It's entirely possible the Emperor never fought on the battle barge, and the story has over time been warped and re-told that many times it has simply become a legend of the Imperium, like David and Goliath, or Arthur vs Mordred.

TenTailedCat
22-06-2005, 14:07
No, sorry I don't accept that - the Heresy is too deeply ingrained to be "mis-information" or degeneration of knowlege - all the fluff of the Heresy is told in the second person, we know what the Emperor is thinking instead of having the narrative from the viewpoint of some scholar who's writing it prom the perspective of the 41st Millenium. If that were the case you'd have a point, but not as things currently stand.

Adept
22-06-2005, 14:48
Mate, it's just a story written about the heresy. It's no more 'true' than the showdown between Arthur and Mordred. We don't know what the Emperor was thinking, we only know what the author believes he was thinking. The only thing lending any credibility to the story is the fact it is published in GW books. But so are the older, varying versions of the fluff. Who says they can't all be equally true? Why does there need to be one definitive true and accurate version of events? The not knowing is good. It lets people explain away the stupid and inconsistent to themselves.

TenTailedCat
22-06-2005, 14:56
Since as far as things go GW are the gods of Warhammer then the stories are canon - the gospel truth - if the fiction says the Emperor is thinking something then (shock horror) that's what he was thinking, I just don't understand why you people can't accept the fact that hese stories have moved on. Ollanius Pious is woefully out of date, so why not just drop it?

The minute GW make any mention of him in a current edition i'll accept it - until Ollanius Pious has no bearing on the Horus Hersy

Lord Lucifer
22-06-2005, 15:13
Because knowing RT fluff makes you Lord of the Geeks, silly :D


However, I have to dispute the 'GW are God when it comes to their background' view these days.
Since 3rd ed rolled around, they dropped the Word of God method and now tell everything almost exclusively in subjective terms.

This is great for getting to know the attitudes of all involved. But this is terrible in the sense of developing a knowledge of storyline... and also attrocious because everyone in 40K is the same, a two-dimensional self-righteous patriotic fanatic crossbred with the entire EMO musical genre.

Worst thing is it starts arguments over trivial information that was cleanly dealt with in 2nd ed.
In 2nd ed. the 'lion vs. russ' thread wouldn't have gone on as long as it did because it stated quite clearly what happened.
It caused a generation of fanboys, and that was nothing short of a major annoyance

TenTailedCat
22-06-2005, 15:14
You know... I'm not going to back down, and neither are the Ollanius Pious chaps (I don't blame them either) it might be best to lock this before it descends into flaming...

Wiseman
22-06-2005, 15:15
yeh but its alot more fun having big discussions about the fluff, how much would it suck going"who did this" and instead of the 350000 pages arguing bout it, you get one post saying "he did" *points at person who did*. its shades of grey no longer straight black and white.

TenTailedCat
22-06-2005, 15:18
I just wish the Ollanius pious camp actually had an argument instead of "I don't see why both can't be true.." when it's been categorically shown that as of 2nd edition (when GW certainly were not telling everything subjectively) that Ollanius Pious had no part in the Greta Heresy.

Adept
22-06-2005, 15:22
I just wish the Ollanius pious camp actually had an argument instead of "I don't see why both can't be true.." when it's been categorically shown that as of 2nd edition (when GW certainly were not telling everything subjectively) that Ollanius Pious had no part in the Greta Heresy.

Who cares?

GW wrote and published the Ollanious Pious fluff. Why does one edition trump the other when they aren't contradictory?

More importantly, why should there be one entirely accurate and true account? If we have multiple accounts of historical events, why does it hurt to acknowledge that all of them are official?

TenTailedCat
22-06-2005, 15:22
They are contradictory, that's the whole point!

I'm wasting my breath.. or finger-energy at least.

Adept
22-06-2005, 15:30
They are contradictory, that's the whole point!

I'm wasting my breath.. or finger-energy at least.

How?

How come Ollanious Pious couldn't be on the battle barge? How come Horus couldn't have been in the Palace?

In terms of contradictory, it only counts (or matters) when it's things like:

Edition 2 - All space marines are black and use ray-guns.

Edition 3 - Space marines are largely white and use bolters.

If you get two conflicting versions of a historical event, they don't automatically cancel each other out. And why should they?

TenTailedCat
22-06-2005, 15:34
Beause - as has been said, so very many times, in soul crushing detail - there is not one. single. minute. infintesimal piece of evidence to support it. Believe it if you must, knock yourself out. But it didn't happen - as of 2nd edition the whole spectrum of the game world changed.

How many times does it have to be written that Sanguinius was there, how many times do you have to read the account of the Emperors final battle to realise that there's not one mention of any Imperial Guard?

I fear if this carries on too much longer my brain is going to fall out...

charlie_c67
22-06-2005, 15:37
How?

How come Ollanious Pious couldn't be on the battle barge? How come Horus couldn't have been in the Palace?

In terms of contradictory, it only counts (or matters) when it's things like:

Edition 2 - All space marines are black and use ray-guns.

Edition 3 - Space marines are largely white and use bolters.

If you get two conflicting versions of a historical event, they don't automatically cancel each other out. And why should they?

Ok, one, Pious was never on the battle barge. Fluff from the time states he saved the Emperor life on the ground in an assault by Horus on the imperial palace not in the final showdown on the battle barge.

Two, No guardsman could've ever survived any experience on the battle barge, it states that marines went nuts on it and they're 10, 100, 1000 times mentally tougher than your average grunt.

Three, Fluff from the 2nd ed onwards talks about the Emperor and Horus directing the battle but not physically being involved.

Four, marines are mainly black/white and use rayguns/bolters? Where on earth has that come from?

Five, Modern fluff that states something catagorically will always override old fluff due to story exposition. Hence why colour schemes, chapter fluff has changed.

TenTailedCat
22-06-2005, 15:40
Thank you Charlie.. I feel like a used up Astropath, my mind is gone.. I can't take much more of this.

http://img20.echo.cx/img20/2644/easter20bunny20crying20baby203.jpg
This is how these constant Ollanius Pious arguments make me feel.

charlie_c67
22-06-2005, 15:45
Heh heh, nice pic.

I think at the end of the day, whilst I can accept him doing summink way beyond the call of duty on the ground, I don't believe it even remotely within the realms of possibility that he could do summink similar on the barge. There's too much evidence against it.

TenTailedCat
22-06-2005, 15:49
You know.. there's a bit of fluff about Sanguinius almost getitng crushed by a massive lump of falling masonry, after which an Imperial Guard colonel helps him up. That's the only mention of an induvidual, specific Imperial Guardsman I've ever read regarding the Horus Hersy.

The chap isn't named, and I'm relatively sure that the fluff is fanfic, but maybe this is our elusive Ollaniu Pious.

Lord Lucifer
22-06-2005, 15:52
Guys, play nice and try to understand other peoples opinions rather than just pressing yours

I don't want this thread to degenerate into something I have to employ Moderation to
Don't make me do it, man, God help me if you make me do it!





:p

But seriously, even if you end up talking in circles and being frustrated, DON'T take it out on others. Go get a glass of water and relax.
NO flaming, be civil.

Lucifer
-Forum Moderator


And now for something, completely different...

Adept
22-06-2005, 15:55
Two, No guardsman could've ever survived any experience on the battle barge, it states that marines went nuts on it and they're 10, 100, 1000 times mentally tougher than your average grunt.

Why? marines are not even recruited until they are adolescent, leaving very little room for mental conditioning, and they recieve no beneficial brain implants. They are mentally no tougher than Guardsmen, they just get better training.


Five, Modern fluff that states something catagorically will always override old fluff due to story exposition. Hence why colour schemes, chapter fluff has changed.

This is what I was getting at with the raygun/bolter thing. Where the fluff comes right out and says 'This is what it is' and the new 'what' is contradictory to the old 'what' then you can't believe both. But when it says 'it happened like this' there is a lot of room for manipulation, along the lines of Christ, Robin Hood or King Arthur. We get two contradictory reports of the siege of the imperial palace, why can't we treat it like real history, and use our discretion to make up our own minds?

Why should there be a definitive true version of the events that took place way back then?

TenTailedCat
22-06-2005, 16:06
Why? marines are not even recruited until they are adolescent, leaving very little room for mental conditioning, and they recieve no beneficial brain implants. They are mentally no tougher than Guardsmen, they just get better training.


A quote from the Index Astartes:

"...A marine is more than a human with extraordinary powers. Marines have extraordinary minds as well! Just as their bodies recieve 19 implants their minds are altered to release the latent pwers within. For example a Marine can control his senses and nervous system to a remarkable degree..."

Marines undergo consant mental testing and training to ensure that they can stand up to everything the enemy can throw at them.

WH40K isn't real as the legend of robin hood and Christ can bethough to be (if you believe such things), so any new developments can effectively ignore the older variations, since they never really happened anyway.

charlie_c67
22-06-2005, 16:07
Why? marines are not even recruited until they are adolescent, leaving very little room for mental conditioning, and they recieve no beneficial brain implants. They are mentally no tougher than Guardsmen, they just get better training.

Err because they undergo psycho surgery etc.


Implantation goes hand-in-hand with chemical treatment, psychological conditioning and subconscious hypnotherapy. All of these are essential if the Marine is to develop properly.

Which mentally toughens them.



This is what I was getting at with the raygun/bolter thing. Where the fluff comes right out and says 'This is what it is' and the new 'what' is contradictory to the old 'what' then you can't believe both. But when it says 'it happened like this' there is a lot of room for manipulation, along the lines of Christ, Robin Hood or King Arthur. We get two contradictory reports of the siege of the imperial palace, why can't we treat it like real history, and use our discretion to make up our own minds?

Why should there be a definitive true version of the events that took place way back then?

Have you read nothing that I've written? Or are you chosing to ignore the numerous reasons I've put that refute the fact that the pious story cannot be true as you seem to claim. The reports are written with the majority of facts leaving no room for manipulation as you put it.

TenTailedCat
22-06-2005, 16:10
Furthermore, it's blatantly stated that a Marine 'knows no fear' it's part of their conditioning from day one - if a marine can be totally unhinged by the mere sight of Horus' craft I don't see how a Guardsman with at best two or three years of training (compared to the decades, or even centuries of experiece of a Marine) can hope to achieve anything better.

Anyway, i'm going to go do real life things for a few hours, I'll be back though...

Sir Charles
22-06-2005, 22:09
Just thought I would point this out but Ollanius Pious was mentioned in a recent White Dwarf in the Echos of the Warp section, I don't remember exactly what it said but I do remember it was partly in response to the conversations on this board.

Khaine's Messenger
22-06-2005, 22:20
They are contradictory, that's the whole point!

You've demonstrated that the Pius event cannot have occured due to a contradiction with the omniscient narrator's description of events. I won't dispute it. I will not say that "both are true"....

But what I will say is that the Imperium is built on the blood of martyrs and a foundation of lies, some of them shy and white, but most of them black as pitch and as dishonest as any cartoon villian you could care to name. While the story of Ollanius Pius might be entirely false (by which I mean it reports fictional events), that's no reason to say the story doesn't exist in popular folklore...by which I mean, it is said to have happened, and Guardsmen could be encouraged to live up to his example, but the figure and person of Pius could be an utter myth whose originator is lost to the mists of time. So...does it matter if it's true? Not necessarily, and certainly not to the people that believe it (thinking in-context here, rather than eye-in-the-sky reader perspective). Its value is as an inspirational token for Guardsmen, the presentation of a role model who was "just like us in so many ways."

In the context of edition change, it's quite possible that Pius is no longer "valid," but then given his original context (the banner description), there is no direct contradiction other than that the beliefs of fictional individuals center around a man and a sequence of events that are utterly impossible given our current knowledge. Our knowledge contradicts the knowledge of the Imperium's own historians (who contradict themselves often as well)...but then this wouldn't be the first time, I suppose.

This is not to say that Sanguinius is not also a fine role model, or that Pius should necessarily share a perch with Sanguinius as one of the most revered saints in the Imperium (as GW seems to have left Pius with his one moment of sunshine, I imagine the whole Pius thing could be a rather fringe movement). Just that there is a case for the Pius myth (and by that I mean no disrespect) to exist in some form, if you fancy it.

TenTailedCat
22-06-2005, 22:44
While the story of Ollanius Pius might be entirely false (by which I mean it reports fictional events), that's no reason to say the story doesn't exist in popular folklore...by which I mean, it is said to have happened, and Guardsmen could be encouraged to live up to his example, but the figure and person of Pius could be an utter myth whose originator is lost to the mists of time. So...does it matter if it's true?

That I will accept wholeheartedly - what I will not accept is the idea that Ollanius Pius and his exploits are literally true - we know for a fact from two decades of plot development that they aren't. Folklore is fine, it doesn't have to have any basis in fact, but when someone tries to twist the 'facts' (such as they are in a fictional universe) to suit their own interests - that's where I think one has to toe the line.

DantesInferno
22-06-2005, 23:47
In the context of edition change, it's quite possible that Pius is no longer "valid," but then given his original context (the banner description), there is no direct contradiction other than that the beliefs of fictional individuals center around a man and a sequence of events that are utterly impossible given our current knowledge. Our knowledge contradicts the knowledge of the Imperium's own historians (who contradict themselves often as well)...but then this wouldn't be the first time, I suppose.


No-one's denying the possible existance of Ollanius Pius as Imperial propaganda. The Imperial warmachine can deify anyone it wants to.

What the argument has concerned, however, is whether the Pius version is still valid, or still can be recognised as a piece of the history of the Heresy. Now, it has been fairly clearly demonstrated that it is simply incompatibe for Pius to have intervened in a Emperor v Horus clash, as it has been superceeded by more recent background which categorically rules it out.
Firstly, the Warmaster spent the entire battle in orbit, he never set foot on Terra.
Secondly, the Emperor spent the battle moping in his throne room, until the final teleportation.
And it seems absud to try to insert Pius in the teleportation into the Warmaster's battle barge. Many of the marines, who had been battling the worst horrors of Chaos, went completely insane on arriving in the daemonic barge. Marines, Termies, possibly Custodes and Primarchs were the only ones to go up with him.

Therefore the Pius events are simply impossible, as the background stands today. I don't mind if anyone wants to support Pius, as long as they recognise it is a myth, and has no basis in the history as we know it.

TenTailedCat
23-06-2005, 00:24
I wonder how long this can go on for?

I've racked up 181 posts in three days at this forum..

That can't be a good thing.

In other news I fancied sharing this picture of Sanguinius at the Battle of Terra, as not everybody sees it - It took me the best part of a year or so before I noticed it. it remains one of only a very few 'official' pictures of Sanguinius - with the exception of John Blanches portrait, which I kinda like, and the images from the Horus Heresy card game. Everything else shows him as dead.

http://img203.echo.cx/img203/4236/sanguinius2pv.jpg
(Might need to enlarge it)
See him, up in the air, wrestling with a daemon. You can make out his sword above his head.

I wonder what sort of daemon that is? it looks different from a Bloodthirster...

Johnny Bravo
23-06-2005, 01:09
Looks almost like a Changer of Ways, but the smoke and haze could be distorting it. That and I thought everyone knew that the Horus Heresy artwork isn't always the most accurate out there. ;) At least, that was the impression I'd gotten.

As for the Pius thing, I think Khaine's Messenger has summed up my stance fairly accurately. I figure there was a man named Ollanius Pius, and he was probably a hell of a Guardsman. But I suspect the story was embellished in the retellings (and who among us hasn't exaggerated a few facts after a couple beers with our buddies? ;) ), until the upper echelons got hold of it, and promptly decided that it could be an incredibly valuable tool to inspire the average soldier.

On a semi-related note, I could have sworn that I'd read somewhere that the majority of the details of the Heresy were not known to the aveage Imperial citizen. Am I remembering this incorrectly, or did I just get hold of an older piece of fluff that has since been rewritten?

TenTailedCat
23-06-2005, 01:15
Yeah it's true that your common imperial citizen doens't know of the Heresy as anything other than a religious fable. Hell, some Imperial citizens don't even know that the Imperium exists except from childhood tales and such. I thibk planets like that are a relative minority now though.

As for the daemon, the wings look too bat-like for a changer of the ways, but I suppose there are many more forms of Daemon than we see on the tabletop.

Adept
23-06-2005, 02:10
Err because they undergo psycho surgery etc.

Which mentally toughens them.

The physical structure of the brain is not augmented in regular marines. They receive extra conditioning, and have a wider range of experiences, but lets not get crazy. When all is said and done, they are just men. ATSKNF does not make marines Fearless troops. That said, if the mere sight of the battle barge sent anyone insane, it was due to the direct influence of the ruinous powers. Simple reflective light rays bouncing into your eyes cannot send you insane, only the way your brain reacts to it can. But we are getting off track.


Have you read nothing that I've written? Or are you chosing to ignore the numerous reasons I've put that refute the fact that the pious story cannot be true as you seem to claim. The reports are written with the majority of facts leaving no room for manipulation as you put it.

Okay, I'm going to attempt to summarise your position as best I can. Please correct me if I am wrong.

- There can only be one version of the background

- Only current edition background is relevant

- Newer background over-rides older background

My position is

- Any of the given multiple versions of the background can, at the players discretion, be chosen to be true.

- Current edition background, and previous edition background are both relevant

- When directly contradictory, the newer background over rules the older background. For example, Ultramines wear red armour, to Ultramarines wear blue armour. Obviously you have to pick one, since both cannot be true.

TenTailedCat
23-06-2005, 02:19
The Space Marines can in no way shape or form be considered as just men. You don't need to physically alter the brain to ensure that one man has a vastly increased resistance to fear when compared to another. And, for what it's worth the brain of a Marine is physically altered - several of their implants are connected directly to the brain of the brain stem.
Furthermore Space Marines are recruited from cultures where cowardice would not be tolerated, and such traits in a potential Marine would be discovered and the recruit would be weeded out. Imperial Guard on the other hand are taken from the whole spectrum of Imperial citizenry. Regardless of their hardware it's a Marines mind that truly makes him what he is.

As for your second point.. well I fail to see one. The newer fluff directly contradicts the story of Ollanius Pious, so by that logic you should accept his story as outdated an no longer relevant. There's no mention whatsoever of the Emperor and Horus being interupted by any Guardsmen and certainly no mention of the Emperor fighting on Terra. is that not enough for you?

Adept
23-06-2005, 02:38
The Space Marines can in no way shape or form be considered as just men. You don't need to physically alter the brain to ensure that one man has a vastly increased resistance to fear when compared to another.

Actually, you do. The structure of the brain is what gives it a predilection for a type of thought pattern or behaviour. Hypnotherapy would offer tiny changes, but nothing major.


And, for what it's worth the brain of a Marine is physically altered - several of their implants are connected directly to the brain of the brain stem.

Fair point. Although we both know the actual lobes of the brain are un-altered in terms of thought.


Furthermore Space Marines are recruited from cultures where cowardice would not be tolerated, and such traits in a potential Marine would be discovered and the recruit would be weeded out.

The fluff indicates that marines are mostly recruited from backwards stone-age planets. It's not courage or intestinal fortitide, it's simply social conditioning. A cave-man might be prepared to charge at a saber-toothed tiger with nothing but a pointy stick, but if you light a sparkler in front of him he could just as easily wet his pants.

The average marine is more disciplined than your regular guardsman. He is even mentally tougher. But he isn't some kind of implaccable automaton. He is still just a man who has the capacity to know fear and terror just like any other man.

As it relates to the argument, it certainly doesn't prevent a 'mere mortal' from surviving on the battle barge of Horus.


As for your second point.. well I fail to see one. The newer fluff directly contradicts the story of Ollanius Pious

Thats the thing. As a historical version, it can't simply give a different version to be directly contradictory. It has to come right out and say "There was never anyone called Ollanius Pious, and Horus never fought the Emperor on Earth". Simply not mentioning it leaves room for it to fit in somehow.

Because GW makes heavy use of the rule of cool, a lot of it's fluff just doesn't make sense. Like the Marines living for thousands of years discussed in the other thread. Because of that, if we as players want to adopt the fluff we have to twist what we have been given to make it fit a consistent and rational world, where rational takes into account the posited laws of the 40K universe.

DantesInferno
23-06-2005, 02:39
My position is

- Any of the given multiple versions of the background can, at the players discretion, be chosen to be true.

- Current edition background, and previous edition background are both relevant

- When directly contradictory, the newer background over rules the older background. For example, Ultramines wear red armour, to Ultramarines wear blue armour. Obviously you have to pick one, since both cannot be true.

Unfortunately, it can't just be up to players' discretion to pick any of the multiple versions of the background, especially in a internet forum like this, if we are going to have meaningful, cohesive debate.

But don't your first and third points here contradict each other? How can players pick which version of the background to use, but also be bound to pick the newer background in cases where the two are directly contradictory (such as the Pius taking the bullet for the Emperor version)?

And no, there is no room for the two versions to peacefully co-exist here. In any version of the background since about 2nd ed, there is no way Pius could have ever been present at a meeting between Horus and the Emperor on Terra, simply because it is not possible to fit such a meeting into the background in a way which even remotely makes sense.

TenTailedCat
23-06-2005, 02:47
The fluff indicates that marines are mostly recruited from backwards stone-age planets. It's not courage or intestinal fortitide, it's simply social conditioning. A cave-man might be prepared to charge at a saber-toothed tiger with nothing but a pointy stick, but if you light a sparkler in front of him he could just as easily wet his pants


Have you read any of the Space Wolves fluff? Their rune priests constantly probe the minds of the 'cubs' and in one of thier final tests they're shown visions and images of various situations to see how they would react (as far as the cubs know these are all real) any who don't match the stadards don't make it - courage in the literal sense is certainly demanded and tested constantly.

As for conditioning of the lobes of the brain, how do we know? (This ties in neatly with your reasoning that absense of evidence is not evidence of absence) at the end of the day though it is conjecture and so I don't present it as a fact, merey a possibility.

I don't see how you can continue to argue the case of Ollanius Pious. Without one shred of truly reliable, up to date evidence.

Adept
23-06-2005, 02:47
Unfortunately, it can't just be up to players' discretion to pick any of the multiple versions of the background, especially in a internet forum like this, if we are going to have meaningful, cohesive debate.

Oh I don't know. We seem to have gotten a few pages out of simply arguing about this!


But don't your first and third points here contradict each other? How can players pick which version of the background to use, but also be bound to pick the newer background in cases where the two are directly contradictory (such as the Pius taking the bullet for the Emperor version)?

The third point is a caveat of the first point. When two pieces directly contradict one another, they cannot both be true. When two pieces are different but do not cancel each other out, then both (I believe) can be accepted as true.

TenTailedCat
23-06-2005, 02:51
But the Ollanius Pious story is directly cancelled out by the newer fluff - Ollanius Pious isn't mentioned. If this were such a massive event it would be noted by the fluff writers.

DantesInferno
23-06-2005, 03:02
The third point is a caveat of the first point. When two pieces directly contradict one another, they cannot both be true. When two pieces are different but do not cancel each other out, then both (I believe) can be accepted as true.

Well, in this case, they do effectively cancel each other out. There's simply no chance for Pius to have intervened between Hours and the Emperor at any point in the story. Simply the way it is. Its perfectly fine to have Pius as a myth for Guardsmen, but with no basis in fact.

Not only is he not mentioned, but there's no possible time for the "old" events to have occured.

Adept
23-06-2005, 03:02
But the Ollanius Pious story is directly cancelled out by the newer fluff - Ollanius Pious isn't mentioned.

The one point does not automatically lead to the other.

TenTailedCat
23-06-2005, 03:10
There is no way the older events can have happened and still leave room for the newer events - which are well documented in numerous places.

Lord Lucifer
23-06-2005, 03:27
Fact: Horus never left his ship
Fact: Sanguinius fought Horus and died
Fact: Emperor killed Horus, and sustained critical injuries in the process

Up for Speculation: Sanguinius' sword cut the hole in Horus' armour vs. the hole was already there and Sanguinius stabbed through it


Ollanius Pius is never stated as being on the barge, or in fact, ever stated definitively to have done anything at all
He supposedly interposed himself between the Emperor and Horus during the assault on the Imperial Palace, which was the entire process of the military procedure, not necessarily a frontal assault on the walls by Horus himself.

Lucifer believes the following to be the case, because he likes the idea:
Ollanius Pius wasn't really ever a soldier during the Siege of the Imperial Palace, at least not in the capacity we think of here (could've been just another nameless grunt named Ollanius, but we're not talking about him)
Instead, it's a personification of the Imperial Guard, who gave their lives holding the enemy at bay whilst the Emperor sat enthroned in his chambers.
A valiant sacrifice, those regiments available struggling to hold back legions of super-humans, daemons, titan legions, and the Primarchs

Over time, instead of referring to the Imperial Guard, they refer to a single person, creating the legend of Ollanius Pius, who shielded the Emperor from the heretic's wrath
As such, all guardsmen learn of this legendary figure who, unbeknownst to them, never really lived, and they celebrate him.
The ecclesiarchy and commisariate tolerate this because it boosts faith and devotion, and morale, and gives all guardsmen something to aspire to
So long as he is viewed as a saint and an intercessianary figure there is no danger of it becoming a heretical idol to the masses.


That's how I see it, anyway :)

x-esiv-4c
23-06-2005, 03:30
I concur with Lucifer on most points in this matter. One over looked issue is the fact that no Guardsmen would ever have the saintly name of "Ollanius Pious". Most definatly a creation of the Commissariat. However what is to be realized is that if a Commissar says it's true, then it is.

TenTailedCat
23-06-2005, 03:36
I think everyone is happy with that idea, except Adept. Who's arguments have made steadily less and less sense over time. I don't mena to sound offensive but I don't see how anyone can keep coming back with the same argument in the face of such evidence.

x-esiv-4c
23-06-2005, 03:39
Seriously TenTailedCat, don't provoke people. If you disagree then leave it. It's up to him what he chooses to believe and who are we to say "You're wrong" about a totally fictional world set in the 41st millenium involving super-human acid spitting Geneto-mega-men.

TenTailedCat
23-06-2005, 03:43
I'm not trying to provoke, I don't want an argument i'm jut frustrated that someone can blatanly ignore what seems a clear cut argument.

Lord Lucifer
23-06-2005, 04:47
X, I think 'pious' would be added after the fact

Chap was probably just named Ollanius, and the 'pious' tag is applied after the fact, as it were ;)

x-esiv-4c
23-06-2005, 04:52
Ahh good point Lord-Lucifer. I suppose the IG is more responsive to names that rhyme. :)

Berynius
23-06-2005, 09:40
Wow! This thread has certainly grown since I last posted, I like Lord Lucifer theory but there is some additional information to be considered.

From the UK WD302, Heroes of the Imperiaum the bit about Captain Lysander.


At that time Captain Shardryss of the Imperial Fists was on Terra and heard of the youngster’s tale. He found the boy by the Pillar of Bones, a monument to the Imperial Fists’ courage in an unnamed campaign. Shadryss, to whom the history of his Chapter was a sacred thing, knew its secret. The pillar was the last remnant of the once-great Imperial Fist fortress monastery on Terra. It had been destroyed during the Horus Heresy but, by then, to most the Heresy was a legend and few would dare to openly claim that the forces of the Arch enemy ever sat foot on Terra

So here we have at fairly recent piece of information that state that the Siege of the Imperial Palace for most people is forgotten or at best a half remembered legend. Therefore the theory put forth by Lord Lucifer has a ring of truth to it. Ollanius is just a metaphor for the sacrifices made by the Imperial Guard during the Heresy

Lord Lucifer
23-06-2005, 10:24
X, I'm thinking it's more along the lines of 'Ollanius the Pious', where eventually the 'the' gets dropped and the description becomes part of the name


Giving your life for the Emperor is a very pious act :)

TenTailedCat
23-06-2005, 10:30
'He who lives for nothing is nothing. He who dies for the Emperor is a hero.'

I wish we could put this argument to bed, but i'm sure someone else will have opinions or arguments still to make...

Delicious Soy
23-06-2005, 13:10
Over time, instead of referring to the Imperial Guard, they refer to a single person, creating the legend of Ollanius Pius, who shielded the Emperor from the heretic's wrath
As such, all guardsmen learn of this legendary figure who, unbeknownst to them, never really lived, and they celebrate him.
The ecclesiarchy and commisariate tolerate this because it boosts faith and devotion, and morale, and gives all guardsmen something to aspire to
So long as he is viewed as a saint and an intercessianary figure there is no danger of it becoming a heretical idol to the masses.


That's how I see it, anyway :)Just to elaborate a little, I imagine the myth is the typical average man reaction, "They say this happened, but here's the REAL story they don't tell you....."

Brusilov
23-06-2005, 14:05
On the matter of Saint Ollanius Pius, the story derive partially from this old picture of advancing guardsmen back from the RT era. One of the standards has the picture of a man on it. It was said to be Pius, the Saint protector of guardsmen, who died to protect the Emperor during the Siege of Terra.

It's easy to reconcile this old version with the new IF termie version. Pius dies during the siege, taking a bolt meant for the Emperor. The proto-Ministorum (can't remember their name on top of my head) makes him into a great hero and he is canonised later on.

The issue with Sanguinius IMHO has more to do with BA being :cheese: than with the Primarch himself

charlie_c67
23-06-2005, 14:08
How could he have done that when the emperor never left the throne room though? The traitors never got that far into the palace.

x-esiv-4c
23-06-2005, 15:42
Welcome back Brusilov!

TenTailedCat
23-06-2005, 16:42
On the matter of Saint Ollanius Pius, the story derive partially from this old picture of advancing guardsmen back from the RT era. One of the standards has the picture of a man on it. It was said to be Pius, the Saint protector of guardsmen, who died to protect the Emperor during the Siege of Terra.

It's easy to reconcile this old version with the new IF termie version. Pius dies during the siege, taking a bolt meant for the Emperor. The proto-Ministorum (can't remember their name on top of my head) makes him into a great hero and he is canonised later on.

The issue with Sanguinius IMHO has more to do with BA being :cheese: than with the Primarch himself


Good to see you Brusilov, but your verison falls flat too - the Emperor never left the throne room. And don't spoil what has been a civil conversation with accusations of cheese. I thought you were more mature than that.

Johnny Bravo
23-06-2005, 18:20
Seconded on the 'good to see ya', Brus. :)

Now, this is just me, and I'm sure Brus'll jump in and clarify, but I suspect he's saying that the rather common notion that Blood Angels fall on the cheesy side (or the habit of some players abusing the list) leads to the coloring of peoples' perception regarding Sanguinius. Otherwise known as 'Teh BA ownz0red me, tehrefor Sagunininius is teh suk!!1!' Syndrome.

x-esiv-4c
23-06-2005, 18:28
Otherwise known as 'Teh BA ownz0red me, tehrefor Sagunininius is teh suk!!1!' Syndrome.

hehehe priceless!

DantesInferno
24-06-2005, 00:12
It's easy to reconcile this old version with the new IF termie version. Pius dies during the siege, taking a bolt meant for the Emperor. The proto-Ministorum (can't remember their name on top of my head) makes him into a great hero and he is canonised later on.



Can't see how that would work, as has been said, the Emperor didn't seem to take part in any of the fighting on Terra at all.

There was one great Imperial hero who did however notably fight on the walls of the Palace........

How would Pius fans like it if he was remembered for taking a bolt meant for Sanguinius, and this was later confused and canonised as taking a bullet for the Emperor........

TenTailedCat
24-06-2005, 00:41
A bullet meant for Sanguinius? The Lord Angel needs no help from mere mortals!!1one!1

Goblinardo
24-06-2005, 00:43
A bullet meant for Sanguinius? Saint Ollanius wouldn't have sacrificed himself for a winged mutant pansy!!1one!1

TenTailedCat
24-06-2005, 00:44
OMFG.... lyke y R u beeing so meen abot Sasnguinius!?!/1/1.1/???? Wat has he evar done 2 u?

Lets face it - the blunt truth is that there are four heroes of the Horus Heresy:

The God Emperor.
Jaghati Khan.
Rogal Dorn.
Sangunius.

Ollanius who?

Goblinardo
24-06-2005, 00:58
cuz sanguinus is a mutant aand so gay and the blosd angeles r teh cheezyezt army EVAR!°1°°11!!!|!| Ollanious roolz!!|1shiftone

And don't forget General Kane, leader of the Imperial Guardsmen that fought in Horus' warship ;) (from the old Warmaster board game)

Getz
24-06-2005, 01:01
For christ's sake TenTailedCat! Do have to be so provocative? :eyebrows:

If Brusilov's recollection of the original fluff is correct then Ollanius Pious wasn't even supposed to have taken a hit from Horus. That means that the fact that Horus and the Emperor never faced off before the Battle Barge scene no longer invalidates the Ollanius Pious fluff. Perhaps the poor shmuck just dived in front of some regular Traitor Marine out for glory, or took a snipers bulllet for the greater good.


Good to see you Brusilov, but your verison falls flat too - the Emperor never left the throne room. And don't spoil what has been a civil conversation with accusations of cheese. I thought you were more mature than that.

There is absolutely no reason other than your own supposition to believe that the Emperor never left the Imperial Palace. Where does it say this? Oh yes, that's right - it doesn't. There is no fluff that I am aware of that states that the Emperor never took part in the defence of his own place. Now, as has already been stated, absence of evidence does not equal evidence of Absence, but there is a piece of fluff that implies that at least onceduring the seige of Terra the Emperor was put in harms way, and in that occasion he was saved by some poor Guardsman taking a bullet for him...

TenTailedCat
24-06-2005, 01:11
In this case I do have to be provocative. What's up with me defending the fluff of my favourite army against specualtory nonsense?

Show me the part of the Horus Heresy where it says the Emperor defended his palace and i'll shut my mouth.

Delicious Soy
24-06-2005, 02:02
Show us the part that shows that he wasn't fighting. The only time we can put him in the throne room was when the loyalists were pushed back to the eternity gate, you know, when there was nowhere else to go?

TenTailedCat
24-06-2005, 02:04
Show us the part where he was fighting.

The only place we can say he categorically was, is in the throne room.

Delicious Soy
24-06-2005, 02:13
Yes, at the end of the siege, there was a significant amount of fighting beforehand though. As has been said, absence of evidence is not evidence of abscence. I'm in front of a computer now, but that doesn't mean I've always been in front of the computer (in theory anyway...)

Son of Morkai
24-06-2005, 02:27
Just pointing this out, but the Horus Heresy CCG has changed the history of the Heresy at nearly every turn (and GW is writing the storyline so it can be considered official). As the game has not gotten to the Siege of the Imperial Palace itself, it is quite possible that any fluff about the Emperor fighting or not fighting will be changed in next three months.

Oh, and a mere technicality, according to the latest fluff, Pious would have been part of the Imperial Army, not Imperial Guard.

TenTailedCat
24-06-2005, 02:30
All you have to go on is established fluff, and what's more, you're arguing for a compromise of the supposed event which there is certainly no evidence for in any fluff.

Ollanius can't have died on the battle barge - we already established the fact that it's incompatible with current events, and the compromise (that he died on terra) is supposition and an attempt to placate the Ollanius supporters and has been devised by those in this thread. It certainly isn't canon in any sense.

x-esiv-4c
24-06-2005, 02:42
"Ah yes but what you forget is that Comrade Commissar Helwich inspired us with tales of the revered Ollanius and to argue with the Commissariat is Heresey and therefore infallible". Take a lesson from 1984, if they say it's true, then it is. :)

TenTailedCat
24-06-2005, 02:49
so in that case Warhammer exists in some sort of double universe where two mutually exclusive events can take place at the same time. Hurrah.

x-esiv-4c
24-06-2005, 02:50
Life is like that. All you have to do is believe in the one you choose but realize that there is more then one option.

Johnny Bravo
24-06-2005, 02:57
Gentlemen, you have my word that I will read through my copy of the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer this weekend, just so I can see if there's anything mentioning Ollanius in there. :)

x-esiv-4c
24-06-2005, 02:59
Gentlemen, you have my word that I will read through my copy of the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer this weekend, just so I can see if there's anything mentioning Ollanius in there. :)

Ahh the primer, all that a loyal, brave guardsmen needs to know is in that tome of faith...blind faith.

Brusilov
24-06-2005, 06:24
My comment on the BA rules were not meant to say I agree with them, but as people commented on my argument, the fact some people abuse BA rules mean their cheesy reputation extends to their Primarch.
The people who know me know that I have little interest in rules. All that matters to me is how fluffy things are ;)

As to the Emperor never leaving the throne room, the fact that he is sitting brooding in the beginning of the story does not mean he never left the room. I am not saying he would take part in the fighting, but you can still take a stray bullet if you visit the fortifications.
But then, it's also possible he would have taken a bullet aimed for Sanguinius.

Personally I have no real love for Pius, but I try to make him fit back into the modern fluff, especially considering GW paid hommage to him after the EoT by awarding some units the Order of Saint Ollanius Pius.

DantesInferno
24-06-2005, 08:49
As to the Emperor never leaving the throne room, the fact that he is sitting brooding in the beginning of the story does not mean he never left the room. I am not saying he would take part in the fighting, but you can still take a stray bullet if you visit the fortifications.
But then, it's also possible he would have taken a bullet aimed for Sanguinius.


Well, on reading the Bill King story it is possible that the Emperor was fighting in the siege, or even left the throne room, but it does seem incredibly unlikely. Here's the relevant bit:



From his throne the Emperor watches his warriors mill around in confusion. This hall holds ten thousand men, seasoned veterans, and all now panicking. He knows they are more frightening by his silence than by the enemy. They look to him for leadership and he can give them none.

For the first time in his millennia-long life the Emperor knows despair. The magnitude of his defeat stuns him. The lunar bases have fallen. Most of the earth is under the Warmaster's heel. Rebel Titans, towering 30 feet high, surround the palace and are held at bay only by the desperate efforts of a few loyalists. It is only a matter of time before the palace's defences fail and the last bastions of resistance fall.

"Sire, what are your orders?" asks Rogal Dorn, massive dark-haired Primarch of the Imperial Fists. His golden armour has lost its lustre, is dented in a dozen places by bolter shells. The Emperor doesn't answer. He is lost within himself seeking answers to his own questions.

He has come at last to the dark place, the time of testing, the era hidden from his precognition vision and beyond which he cannot see. The moment he has always dreaded has arrived. Is my time over, he wonders? Is this where it all ends? Is this why I have reached the limits of my prophetic powers. Is this where I die?

He felt bewildered. Even now, the Traitor Warmaster's forces were battering at the gate, he finds it difficult to believe that he has been betrayed.

Horus was more than a trusted comrade, more like a favoured son. Of all the Primarchs the Emperor relied on him most. Not for a second had the Emperor doubted him, not even when word had come from the Savage Worlds that the Warmaster was gathering forces. He had deluded himself that Horus must have good reason to do so without consulting him. I should have been warned by the failure of my precognition, he thinks.


The Emperor's disbelief, grief and bewilderment at the Heresy are the main emotions you get from this. Does it sound to you like a man who's just been fighting for his life, commanding his legions in a desperate defence? Or even someone who's gone outside and witnessed the sheer scale of the Heresy? It doesn't to me.

And this is other than the Emperor's obvious ommission from the descriptions of the fighting on the walls - it defies belief that we'd hear so much about Sanguinius and to a lesser extent Rogal Dorn and the others it the Emperor was doing something himself.

Typheron
24-06-2005, 13:18
what we really need here is the origional quote of the Ollanius Pius version of events to see how closely (or not as the case may be) the events depected within that story match or can be fitted within the newer fluff.

Anyone out there have the origional text to hand on this one?

TenTailedCat
24-06-2005, 13:44
It's in thsi thread somewhere, all it is is a description of a banner saying it depicts the "saint who supposedly tooka bullet for the emperor" or words to that effect.

Berynius
24-06-2005, 16:46
The relevant quote is here Clikity (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4557&page=3&pp=20) Post 47 if memory serves ;)

Adept
24-06-2005, 16:57
The way I look at is:

It could be slotted in to commonly accepted fluff. The final assault on the Imperial Palace is a battle, not a specific event. It could be taken to mean any part of the conflict from the opening shot until the chaos retreat.

There could well have been an unmentioned squad of Guardsmen on the battle barge (And lets not have any of this "Oh, but it was so scary on there!" sillyness) and the events mentioned could have taken place.

Personally, I like the idea of a lowly guardsman taking a bullet for the Emperor, so I treat it as canon myself. I can see where more hardline purists might not want to though.

charlie_c67
24-06-2005, 17:01
There could well have been an unmentioned squad of Guardsmen on the battle barge (And lets not have any of this "Oh, but it was so scary on there!" sillyness) and the events mentioned could have taken place.

No we couldn't. It's already been established that they would not've survived mentally at all and would've been turned into gibbering wrecks as soon as they got there. Marines are a lot mentally tougher, shown in games play by their higher ld and the ATSKNF rule, something you seem to reject out of hand with no proof or genuine reason. If a few marines get turned nuts by the barge then your gonna have to face it that normal guardsmen have no hope.

Adept
24-06-2005, 17:14
Marines are a lot mentally tougher, shown in games play by their higher ld and the ATSKNF rule, something you seem to reject out of hand with no proof or genuine reason.

Not at all. Marines receive extra conditioning and training. They are more experienced.

Unfortunately, Marines are recruited as adolecents. By that age, their cognitive processes are pretty much set. No amount of hypno-therapy will change that. They also do not recieve any brain implants which would affect the way a marine process fear and terror. They are just more disciplined. In fact, they have the same LD as an Imperial Guard veteran sergeant or Stormtrooper, and has less LD than a heroic senior officer, who is a mere mortal man.

The ATSKNF rule does not make them fearless, and it doesn't prevent them from falling back.

Their brain is entirely too human, and depends 100% on their experience and training to make them perform above human averages. A guardsman who has received a similar level of training (or who was indoctrinated as a child, such as anyone born on Cadia) would have the same ability to resist fear as a Marine.

Added to that, the whole 'died of fright' thing is just stupid and should be ignored out of hand.

charlie_c67
24-06-2005, 17:30
Why's it stupid? Just cos it scuppers your theory?

And think you'll find that "And they shall KNOW NO FEAR" bit means they are fearless by the very sentence.

These weren't bog standard troopers either, they were the cream of the loyalist forces the most battle hardened and had seen it all, yet still some lost it. So therefore guardsmen had no hope.

A guardsman who had the same training as a marine would no longer be a mere guardsmen because a marines training is tougher physically and mentally and the human body could not cope. Despite what you keep repeating ad nausium with no proof, marines are trained to be mentally tougher than any human. They're trained to deal with things that would have guardsmen running at the sight of, a basic fact that you seem unable/willing to grasp.

Goblinardo
24-06-2005, 19:56
A bit off topic, but...

Space Hulk, 2nd Edition had a piece of fluff where Blood Angels Terminators were exploring a Hulk and got ambushed by Genestealers. The Sergeant leading them froze with fear for a second before his training took over and forced him to act.

So yes, Marines are highly disciplined and all that jazz. But they still feel fear.

EDIT: Found it.


A final check of the scanner showed that the first of the foe were nearly upon them, just round the corner ahead. Very soon they would get their first sight of a Genestealer. With a terse command he ordered the squad to halt and ready their weapons. Despite all his years of service, when the first wave of Stealers tore towards them down the corridor, Huon nearly froze with horror before his instincts and training took over. He fired his storm bolter again and again at the monsters. Behind him, his men fired continuously, raking the corridor with explosive shells, but no matter how many Stealers they killed, more flung themselves forward, screaming with alien fury.

TenTailedCat
24-06-2005, 22:45
You seem to have misread your own quote.

The text says "NEARLY froze with HORROR"

Fear and Horror are two different things entirely.

It's been catergorically stated

"They shall be pure of heart and strong of body, untainted by doubt and unsullied by self-aggrandisement/ ... /and they shall know no fear."

This is as canon as it gets - categorical proof. It's written time and again as many times as you like - They shall know no fear.

On the subject of the Emperor in the battle for Terra, I found a nice little quote when reading my Index Astares this evening while researching for a fiction i'm writing:

"Sanguinius is immortalised in the stained glass windows of the Sanctus Praetoria Imperator as fighting high above the raging battle, facing daemons so powerful they could unhinge the minds of great heroes with but a word. He single-handedly held the crenellations from the tides of daemonic filth attempting to wash into the holy chambers of the Emperor's Palace."

Single handedly.

And while we're on the subject of daemons that can unhinge the mind. This is chaos, the purest form of insanity there is, you can't say that such a thing couldn't kill a man by its sheer prescence, it can't be judged by any normal standards.

Goblinardo
24-06-2005, 23:51
Ok, the Sarge nearly froze with horror. Still, how can you feel horror without fear?

I think that you are taking the ATSNKF quote too literally. I mean, it says that "They shall be pure of heart and strong of body", and yet we know that Marines can be corrupted, in both mind and body. It says that they are "untainted by doubt and unsullied by self-aggrandisement", yet the fluff has several depictions of Marines thinking they know better than the Imperium (from Horus himself to, say, Huron Blackheart). Why should "and they shall know no fear" be different?


Look, I'm not saying that Marines feel fear the same way regular humans do. They have been through the worst the galaxy has to offer and held their ground (HH, Macragge, etc.) But that doesn't exclude the chance that somewhere, before raising his chainsword and yell "FOR THE EMPEROR!", an Adeptus Astartes had thought about wetting his power armour.

TenTailedCat
24-06-2005, 23:54
We already established that the Marines got screwed on horus Battle Barge. What we're saying is that if marines with all the traits listed can't stand it, what possible chance does a Guardman have?

Anyway, I'm going todo real life for a while, back later.

Twisted Ferret
25-06-2005, 00:43
Well, just because the guardsmen would apparently go crazy doesn't mean they couldn't be there, only that they couldn't be sane. :P By all accounts this Ollanius is an exceptional individual, perhaps so fanatical in his faith that he was able to stave off the horror for a bit. Or maybe it was a mad, frothing Ollanius who, jumping crazily around, accidently stopped a bolter shell... after the event, it was misinterpreted as a heroic sacrifice (with an eye toward the inspirational value of such an incident).

TenTailedCat
25-06-2005, 00:46
By all accounts? What "accounts"? There's nothing, no writing about him whasoever, all that's known is his name and a 'supposed' account of his actions which we've established almost certainly never took place.

There's nothing.

DantesInferno
25-06-2005, 01:00
There could well have been an unmentioned squad of Guardsmen on the battle barge (And lets not have any of this "Oh, but it was so scary on there!" sillyness) and the events mentioned could have taken place.


Aside from the "Oh it was so scary up there!" argument, you really need to apply Occam's Razor here (Of two equivalent theories or explanations, all other things being equal, the simpler one is to be preferred).

Firstly, why would the Emperor teleport a squad of Guardsmen up when we know there were plenty of marines available to be teleported up? Surely he'd want the very best to go up.

Secondly the Guardsmen would have needed so much equipment to be teleported and also to survive the atmosphere in the battle barge they'd be pretty inefficient anyway.

Thirdly, a squad of Guardsmen being chosen amongst Marines, Terminators and Custodes would surely be worthy of a comment, yet there is no mention of them. Odd.

Surely you can agree that while it might be theoretically possible for Guardsmen to be present on Horus' battle barge, it is so unlikely and so illogical that it's laughable as a theory. Sure, Ollanius could have been present on the battle barge, but then again the Emperor could have teleported a Titan up too. Or a friendly C'tan. Or some Tyranids who had arrived in the galaxy 10 000 years early. Let's be sensible about this. Just because they're not mentioned didn't mean it didn't happen, but it's fairly persuasive.

TenTailedCat
25-06-2005, 01:06
That's a good point actually... currently only Space Marines can teleport - and space Marines in Terminator armour at that. There must be a reason, perhaps an unarmoured person wouldn't survive teleporting through the warp?

Goblinardo
25-06-2005, 01:12
Then again, maybe teleporting tech was better back then...

But it's odd, actually. Is there any good piece of fluff regarding teleportation?

devolutionary
25-06-2005, 01:14
Why do people always rip into Sanguinius? The guy refused to turn, even when it would have saved his life!

Why do folks rip in to Guilliman, who brought the Legions to hand and was the keystone to rebuilding the Imperium after the Heresy? It's simply a matter of taste. I don't like Sanguinus because I don't like the whole Angel legends (my feelings have been well documented). I do like the idea of the master administrator and tactician. Opinion is a beautiful thing :)

Twisted Ferret
25-06-2005, 02:32
By all accounts? What "accounts"? There's nothing, no writing about him whasoever, all that's known is his name and a 'supposed' account of his actions which we've established almost certainly never took place.

There's nothing.
You're right, it obviously wasn't just an expression. :O My apologies for being such an ignorant lout.

TenTailedCat
25-06-2005, 02:38
I almost didn't get that. You're new at sarcasm aren't you?

The point is valid - you can't say "by all accounts" and then say he's a very brave chap - there are no accoutns, so you basically made it up. This thread has been very specific in it's requiremnts regarding direct quotes and accepted writing. You just seem to have invented attributes for thsi character based on what you assumed he'd be like.

x-esiv-4c
25-06-2005, 02:52
In addition to Twisted Ferrets argument of Zealous behaviour of inspired guardsmen, does anyone remember that Commissar in Shadow-point who had continued to fight even after he was dead?

TenTailedCat
25-06-2005, 03:10
I don't know about any of that - but I do know this:

"They are ambushed by scuttling skull-faced things in the armour of Marines. They fight hordes of mutated beasts. One by one they die. In the end the Emperor stands alone. Then and only then is he allowed to enter the prescence of Horus."

Still no Imperial Guardsmen...

I might also point out that there is not one single mention of Horus firing his bolter at the Emperor in the blow by blow account of their battle.

Which is an interesting point - Horus has been given all the powers of Chaos, he can fillet a normal man with a mere glance - a gesture sends pure poison through the Emperors veins.

A bolter? Why would he bother?

Acording to the fluff - he didn't.

x-esiv-4c
25-06-2005, 03:13
From whos point of view was all this written? Was it done in a narrative voice?

TenTailedCat
25-06-2005, 03:16
It's written as it is, it's hard to define. We know what the Emperor is thinking, but it's not exactly from his point of view.

edit: give me a few minutes, I'll type some of it up.

x-esiv-4c
25-06-2005, 03:19
Hmm, sounds like a cyberskull was floating about :)
Why didn't Horus destroy his barge while himself and the Emperor were aboard? Sure Horus would die but the ruinous powers would live on and without the interuptions of the Emperor.....Hmmm, enough speculation.

TenTailedCat
25-06-2005, 03:26
I can't be bothered to type it all up now - it certainly isn't from a servo skull perspective.

Horus didnt get a chance to do anything - the Emperor wasn't fighting back and was getting pwned - he had his spine snapped, half his face melted, his hand ripped off one arm and the entire arm wripped out of its' socket on the other side, a few broken ribs - you name it.

As this happens the IF terminator walks in and Horus wastes him just by looking at him. Seeing this the Emperor realises that there's no saving Horus and kills him just like that.

Pwnt.

x-esiv-4c
25-06-2005, 04:16
The Emperor wasn't fighting back because he thought Horus could be redeemed!?

TenTailedCat
25-06-2005, 04:23
Seems like it *shrugs* even after everthign he's done the Emperor still hopes.

"The Emperor sees the trap that has been set for him. He has been restraining himself, trying not to hurt the one who had been as a son to him. Now he sees that there is no trace of his trusted comrade left. he knows that he must stop this semblane of his former friend and avenge the fallen Terminator. He must strike one deadly blow. he will get no other chance.

He gathers every particle of his power, focuses it into a mighty bolt of pure force, more coherent than a laser, more destructive than an exploding sun. He aims it at Horus, a lance of power destined for the madmans heart. Horus senses the upsurge of energy and turns t face the Emperor, a look of horror on his face.

The Emperor lets fly. It strikes the Warmaster. Horus screams as destruction rains down on him, twisting and writhing in titanic agony. He strives frantically to counter the Emperor's deathblow but his struggles become more feeble as the lethal energies play over him."

x-esiv-4c
25-06-2005, 04:26
Huh, so it took to the point of death before the Emperor decides " Hmm, maybe he isn't a good chap after all!". Well, I guess it plays on the forgiveness that the Emperor bestowes, I guess killing Horus would be better then letting him face the chaos gods with failure.

TenTailedCat
25-06-2005, 04:28
Interestingly, before he dies Horus does actually regain his soul, realises what he's done and begins to weep. He probably would have survived too, but he looks at the Emperor, the Emperor looks at him, and they both realise that Horus has to die, since the Emperor won't be there to stop him if he loses it again. Then the Emperor kills him.

Funny that - Abbadon fighting for a cause that he thinks Horus believed in. :D

x-esiv-4c
25-06-2005, 04:30
By what authority did Horus regain his soul? The Chaos gods gave it away or did the Emperor have the power to restore it?

TenTailedCat
25-06-2005, 04:33
When the Chaos gods sensed that Horus had lost they retreated from his body - I think if Horus had died while they were attached to him they would have either been destroyed or severly weakened.

The Emperor didn't just kill Horus though, he utterly obliterated his soul, which is kind of mercifull, considering what the Chaos gods would have done to it had it passed to the warp in the normal way...

Khaine's Messenger
25-06-2005, 04:36
In the Bill King story, the Chaos Gods simply lifted their influence from Horus (or I could perhaps say, divested him of any essense of themselves they had attempted to invest within him) just as the Emperor was about to strike the killing blow. The whole "Horus repents" idea is an extrapolation of a jumble of events that pretty much all fall into place at the same time in cinematic slow-motion. Horus didn't so much regain his soul as the Chaos Gods renounced him just as he was about to have his soul obliterated by the Emperor's psychic might. You might recall an applicable line by Magnus the Pious and his foe in regards to whose gods have abandoned whom. :)

Or at least that's how I interpreted it.

x-esiv-4c
25-06-2005, 04:37
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh I see. I wonder if Abbadon has the same pact with the chaos gods in that if Abbadon dies, they gods will be weakened. I agree in that annihilating Horus' soul was probably the most merciful thing the Emperor could have done. i wonder if anyone else has mastered the ability to obliterate souls.

TenTailedCat
25-06-2005, 04:44
In the Bill King story, the Chaos Gods simply lifted their influence from Horus (or I could perhaps say, divested him of any essense of themselves they had attempted to invest within him) just as the Emperor was about to strike the killing blow. The whole "Horus repents" idea is an extrapolation of a jumble of events that pretty much all fall into place at the same time in cinematic slow-motion. Horus didn't so much regain his soul as the Chaos Gods renounced him just as he was about to have his soul obliterated by the Emperor's psychic might. You might recall an applicable line by Magnus the Pious and his foe in regards to whose gods have abandoned whom. :)

Or at least that's how I interpreted it.


Actually the sequence of events is a little longer judging by the text.

"Driven by all the rage and pain and hatred the Emperor wills Hous's death. He senses the forces of Choas retreat, disengaging themselves from their pawn. As they do sanity returns to the Warmaster. The Emperor sees realisation of the atrocities he has commited flicker across Horus' face. Tears glisten there.

Horus is free but the Emperor knows that he himself is dying and that the Powers of Chaos may once again possess the Warmaster and he will not be there to stop them. He cannot take that risk. Horus must die. Yet for a second, looking into his old friends face, he hesitates, unable to do the deed. Then he thinks of the slaughter that still goes on outside, may go on forever.
Resolve hardens within him.

He forces all mercy and compassion from his mind, empties it of all knowledge of friendship and cameraderie and love. His eyes lock with Horus and see understanding there. Then with full cold knowledge of what he is doing the Emperor destroys the Warmaster."

It goes on after that for a little bit, but that's basically the end.

Twisted Ferret
25-06-2005, 04:59
Yes, there are accounts. The very first piece, that started it all, as well as that new bit about The Order of Saint Ollanius or whatever it was that someone mentioned. To have an award and banner and such, as well as just the act (sacrifice) itself - seems to be he had to be, if nothing else, brave. Exceptional in some way.

Meh, I was merely providing a possible explanation for an objection that cropped up. You're harping on an irrelevant detail; your rage and fanaticism consumes you, in true Blood Angel fashion. :P

TenTailedCat
25-06-2005, 05:02
No, we just got sidetracked, which isn't a bad thing.

I find it interesting to note that there's very recent mention of saint Ollanius Pious, the award that bears his name and such - but no mention of his deeds. Almost as if GW recognises that it's incompatible with current edition background.

And no detail is irrelevant, every minute piece of 'evidence' counts.

Yes fanaticism rears its head when someone tries to steal the thunder of my Blood Angels.

Twisted Ferret
25-06-2005, 05:05
By all accounts? What "accounts"? There's nothing, no writing about him whasoever, all that's known is his name and a 'supposed' account of his actions which we've established almost certainly never took place.

There's nothing.
In reference to this post.

Twisted Ferret
25-06-2005, 05:06
Do Blood Angels like Space Wolves? Enemy of my enemy is my friend, and all that. (: (I have to decide whether I like them, you see. :P I had been hating them because everyone loves them but then realized that that was a crappy reason for hating...)

Perhaps Ollanius was a covert Blood Angel. Or Blood Angel recruit. >>

TenTailedCat
25-06-2005, 05:08
There's not much fluff with both the Blood Angels and Space Wolves together, but I assume they get along just fine, considering that the Blood Angels are very reclusive as a chapter nowadays that isn't really saying much.

A blood Angels recruit? In the middle of the Heresy...?

Edit:

Oh and the accounts you mention say nothing about his character. That's what i'm getting at.

Twisted Ferret
25-06-2005, 05:33
A blood Angels recruit? In the middle of the Heresy...?
XD Well, you never know...


Oh and the accounts you mention say nothing about his character. That's what i'm getting at.
I was thinking that he'd have to have some exceptional character to make the sacrifice and remain faithful and such. Anyway, I admit the case for Ollanius is pretty weak, though I like the idea. I think I'll relegate him to saving his commisionar (I know I spelled that wrong) or something. :P

Adept
25-06-2005, 06:44
Why's it stupid? Just cos it scuppers your theory?

It's stupid because dieing of fright is a lame concept. It would have to be some kind of cerebral stimuli which would generate an extremely exagerated fight or flight response, which in turn would induce a heart attack.

The flight or flight response is unable to reach that extremity in a person of good health. Especially if said person has two hearts. A marine dieing of fright is just stupid.


And think you'll find that "And they shall KNOW NO FEAR" bit means they are fearless by the very sentence.

And I think you'll find it means nothing of the sort. Marines are not fearless, either in the fluff or in the game. It is impossible for them to be so. By the time a person reaches about 10 or 12, their brain is developed and set in its ways. Only intrusive surgery and implants could possible change the way a Marine processes fear and terror. Marines do not receive these implants. They fear very little, they have been trained to not fear much. But the things they do fear, still effect them as much as any lowly guardsman. Their brain is not genetically enhanced, and it is developed before the Chapters have a chance to alter it.


These weren't bog standard troopers either, they were the cream of the loyalist forces the most battle hardened and had seen it all, yet still some lost it. So therefore guardsmen had no hope.

The two points are not connected. Marines are not posessed of genetically enhanced brains. Their brains are not significantly conditioned. They are well disciplined, and they are mentally tough, but their brains are still human, with all the attendant frailties. As I said before, any child indoctrinated since he was 3 will have a much more firm mind than a Marine who was recruited when he was 15.

So while ten percent of Marines might lose it, perhaps twenty five percent of Guardsmen might lose it as well. Remember that any accompanying guardsmen would have been the elite of the elite, trained from birth and battle-hardened.


Despite what you keep repeating ad nausium with no proof, marines are trained to be mentally tougher than any human. They're trained to deal with things that would have guardsmen running at the sight of, a basic fact that you seem unable/willing to grasp.

No, they aint. Marines are disciplined enough to work through their fear when lesser men would run, it's true. But no amount of training can alter the way the brain processes fear and terror.

TenTailedCat
25-06-2005, 08:51
I'm sorry Adept but you can't just say that as if it were true - this is 40k, where Marines can spit poison, have two hearts and live for 1000 years. There's an enormous amount of so called "Psychosurgery" that's inflicted on a Marine. To say that he reacts to fear in the same way as anyone else is fanciful at best.

Adept
25-06-2005, 12:31
I'm sorry Adept but you can't just say that as if it were true - this is 40k, where Marines can spit poison

They have glands for that.


have two hearts

Surgical implant.


and live for 1000 years.

Which also doesn't make any sense.


There's an enormous amount of so called "Psychosurgery" that's inflicted on a Marine.

Which can only affect a developed brain so much. Non-invasive psychosurgery is extremely limited in it's scope. Without actually getting in there and playing around with neurons and such, you just can't achieve much.


To say that he reacts to fear in the same way as anyone else is fanciful at best.

Not at all. The only difference is the range of things that he fears.

TenTailedCat
25-06-2005, 12:36
You're making no sense whatsoever! I feel as if I should smash my brains out on a wall and smear them on your face...

How do you know if their surgeryis invasive or not? I an show you a lovely little picture of a Marine having a hole drilled into his head, possibly for that very type of surgey.

Just because something doesn't 'make sense' to you it doesn't mean it isn't possible in Warhammer - these guys do live for 1000 years wether you like it or not.

So what if it's glands that allow them to spit posion, the point is that these things would be impossible today, but then 40K isn't set today, is it?

devolutionary
25-06-2005, 12:59
I was enjoying this thread... until it started becoming something reminiscent of an episode of survivor. Can we quit with the bickering in here please? It's grating on my nerves and on the nerves of others I am sure. The thread was about Ollanius Pious and where he turned up from. It's ancient fluff, and while endearing to some, conflicts with some current storylines. Keep in mind, RT days also had Marines as blood-crazed convicts. Take it with a pinch of salt.

Adept
25-06-2005, 15:32
You're making no sense whatsoever! I feel as if I should smash my brains out on a wall and smear them on your face...

I sense a little tension here...

Maybe someone should try decaf.


How do you know if their surgeryis invasive or not?

To support your position that any human brain present on the battle barge would over-react to such an extent that it would kill its own body, you must provide evidence that said surgery actually significantly interferes with the way the brain perceives danger and threats, and processes feelings of fear and terror.


Just because something doesn't 'make sense' to you it doesn't mean it isn't possible in Warhammer - these guys do live for 1000 years wether you like it or not.

So what if it's glands that allow them to spit posion, the point is that these things would be impossible today, but then 40K isn't set today, is it?

All good fantasy worlds should be internally consistent. 40K isn't always, because it has been written and added to by hundreds of different people who aren't always aware of how things should work. There is no reason given in the 40K fluff for why a Marine should live for significantly longer than a regular human. We know the Admechs have to 'rejuvinate' themselves, but that the process isn't perfect. Marines apparently can live for thousands of years without any need for rejuvination. It doesn't make sense. But we can work around it by making assumptions or conclusions, to make it appeal to our desire for consistency.

Anyway, my position has, and will remain to be that the possibility for there to be a grain of truth to the Ollanius Pious story is open. I'm not going to try and tell you that you should believe it happened, nor that it did happen 'whether you like it or not', just that I think it's possible that it happened.

Lord Lucifer
25-06-2005, 15:44
Guys, play nice and try to understand other peoples opinions rather than just pressing yours

I don't want this thread to degenerate into something I have to employ Moderation to
Don't make me do it, man, God help me if you make me do it!

Lucifer
-Forum Moderator

Some of you may recognise this post, it was earlier this thread.

TenTailedCat, you have been given a Strike, for flaming and disrespectful posting.

If this thread continues like this, it will be closed, which will be a shame for those who actually want to discuss this subject and hear each other out.


Lord Lucifer
-Forum Moderator

Delicious Soy
25-06-2005, 16:05
It's stupid because dieing of fright is a lame concept. It would have to be some kind of cerebral stimuli which would generate an extremely exagerated fight or flight response, which in turn would induce a heart attack.

The flight or flight response is unable to reach that extremity in a person of good health. Especially if said person has two hearts. A marine dieing of fright is just stupid.THing is, they didn't die of fright. They sanity simply fell apart because of what they saw and were reduced to gibbering wrecks. THen again is it so hard to substitute 'die of fright ' for 'expired due to heart failure caused by excessively disconcerting environmental stimuli'? I know which sounds better in the middle of a narrative.


And I think you'll find it means nothing of the sort. Marines are not fearless, either in the fluff or in the game. It is impossible for them to be so. By the time a person reaches about 10 or 12, their brain is developed and set in its ways. Only intrusive surgery and implants could possible change the way a Marine processes fear and terror. Marines do not receive these implants. They fear very little, they have been trained to not fear much. But the things they do fear, still effect them as much as any lowly guardsman. Their brain is not genetically enhanced, and it is developed before the Chapters have a chance to alter it.Yes such things are impossible under our technology, but humanity knows alot more about the workings of the brain than what we do currently, MIU's and the like far outstrip anything our current technology can provide in terms of intimate workings of motor functions and such. Who's to say that they could not find methods (including psyker manipulation by a chapter's Librarium) of altering behavioural patterns? You say that much of this is affected by experience, Marines recruit from groups who are extremely desensitised to violence and death, often from tribes who intentionally raise children so that they might become a Space Marine, would these types of recruits be more easily adapted resist fear to the point that it becomes little more than a slight hesitation?




The two points are not connected. Marines are not posessed of genetically enhanced brains. Their brains are not significantly conditioned. They are well disciplined, and they are mentally tough, but their brains are still human, with all the attendant frailties. As I said before, any child indoctrinated since he was 3 will have a much more firm mind than a Marine who was recruited when he was 15.You mean the brains that are altered so marines develop enhanced memories, have only a minor need for sleep and can processs their sensory inputs far more capably than an ordinary human? I'd call that 'significant conditioning'. If they are being trained to psychologically handle these sudden alterations to their brain chemistry, it's only a small step to controlling their fears. Like I already said, Marines don't simply recruit like an army for the most part, they intentionally set themselves up as avatars for the Emperor and as idols to be worshipped and aspired due, they basically alter cultures to serve as an entire recruiting population. Successful Space Marine recruits are most likely those children indoctrinated from age 3.

DantesInferno
26-06-2005, 01:02
Anyway, my position has, and will remain to be that the possibility for there to be a grain of truth to the Ollanius Pious story is open. I'm not going to try and tell you that you should believe it happened, nor that it did happen 'whether you like it or not', just that I think it's possible that it happened.

OK, so your theory is that Ollanius Pius and a squad of Guardsmen are waiting around in the throne room after the walls of the Palace have fallen, and the Emperor chooses them to teleport up in a small group of Primarchs, Terminators and Marines (and possibly Custodes) when there are still thousands of Marines hanging around, eager to go? Then, they are able to be teleported up without all the gimzos in Marine and Termie armour. They also have rebreathers to cope with the poisonous atmosphere and their exposed skin is somehow preserved. They hold on to their sanity where some of the Emperor's finest were reduced to gibbering wrecks. Finally, they somehow fight their way through the tides of Daemons, traitor marines and god knows what else, so that Pius makes it into Horus' throne room, and then throws himself in front of a strike meant for the Emperor.

I'm going to stick by the application of Occam's Razor here - this is so incredible that while it is technically possible, the chances of it occuring are sufficiently small that you can ignore it as a theory. The glaring illogicalities and the fact that none of this is ever mentioned (where you think it would be, humans suviving on the barge is pretty remarkable) mean I think you can safely discount it.

And what would be sufficient for you to count the Pius theory as impossible? A sentence in the Bill King story of the Emperor v Horus clash to the effect of "Oh, and by the way, Ollanius Pius definately never existed"? Seems to break up the flow of the narrative, don't you think?

Adept
26-06-2005, 04:56
it is technically possible

That's all I'm looking for. I'm not going to say it definately happened, my position has only ever been that it wasn't impossible.

Typheron
26-06-2005, 11:07
i think origionally there were a whole bunch of gaurdsmen that teleported with the emperor, but almost all of them went mad and or died by the hands (or tenticles) of something nasty.


what i was getting at with the quote thing was that there is no direct fluff, no actual tale (at least to my knowlege) where a GW write has said "and the Gaurdsman jumps in the way and dies for his emperor" so its a 4th hand story here. shame too cos it would be nice if it was a factual thing.

Getz
27-06-2005, 00:03
I'm going to stick by the application of Occam's Razor here - this is so incredible that while it is technically possible, the chances of it occuring are sufficiently small that you can ignore it as a theory. The glaring illogicalities and the fact that none of this is ever mentioned (where you think it would be, humans suviving on the barge is pretty remarkable) mean I think you can safely discount it.

Hate to swing in with the scientific theory here, but you cannot use Occam's Razor in an argument about history (or in this case psuedo-history). Occam's Razor makes an assumption that the underlying laws of nature are as simple as possible. However all Historians recognise that historical events rarely are triggered in the simplest and most efficient manner and therefore the underlying assumptions of Occam's Razor are inapproriate. Occam's Razor is only applicable to scientific analysis.

Additionally Occam's Razor is used to compare theories which are seeking to describe the same outcome in different ways. In this instance it would only be applicable to "Ollanius Pious (and no one else) saved the Emperor on the Battle Barge" versus "Sanguinius (and no one else) saved the Emperor on the Battle Barge." As no one is trying to make that argument then Occam's Razor is, again, inapplicable.

As for the "and they shall know no fear..." quote. This is clearly hyperbole and has been contradicted by several pieces of fluff (for example the fact that entire legions turned traitor during the Heresy). Anyone who tries to use it as a fluff justification of genuine fearlessness is making about as much sense as someone who asserts the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer is a wholly accurate and truthful description of the 40K battlefield... :rolleyes: :eyebrows:

A final point on fearlessness. The fight or flight reflex is actually hardwired into our brains and spinal cords on many different levels and it is about as fundemental as the self-righting reflex (the one that makes mice placed on their backs turn over even if they are almost entirely catatonic) and to surgically remove it would require you to literally pull apart the subjects nervous system - so I'm sorry, but no amount of surgery or pschyo-conditioning will ever entirely remove that reflex, even 38 000 years into the future.

I'm happy to explain this further if you don't believe me, but it's quite involved neuroscience and my speciality is immunology, so I'd prefer it if you took my word for it on that point. ;)

Typheron
27-06-2005, 00:31
I would think that marine do feel fear, but the differance is in how there training and psycho conditioning helps them deal with it.

there are within humanity a 1% amout of poeple that are mentally able to deal with killing another human or somethign vaguly human. This was found out in the two world wars as most soldiers simply shot there guns towards the enemy without shooting to kill with only the 1% shooting to kill and meaning it.

The armys arround the world now train there soldiers to respond instantly without thinking through the course fo there actions. A modern soldier is trained so that the reaction to shoot is almost hard wired in through all the training they have undergone. You do somethign enough it becomes 2nd nature.

I would see the marine training haveing a similar effect but oviously greatly enhanced. Normally if your exposed to something for long enough you can get used to it and learn to deal with it which is where i think the marines training and conditioning allows them to be more battle hardened then the IG.

DantesInferno
27-06-2005, 01:03
Hate to swing in with the scientific theory here, but you cannot use Occam's Razor in an argument about history (or in this case psuedo-history). Occam's Razor makes an assumption that the underlying laws of nature are as simple as possible. However all Historians recognise that historical events rarely are triggered in the simplest and most efficient manner and therefore the underlying assumptions of Occam's Razor are inapproriate. Occam's Razor is only applicable to scientific analysis.

Additionally Occam's Razor is used to compare theories which are seeking to describe the same outcome in different ways. In this instance it would only be applicable to "Ollanius Pious (and no one else) saved the Emperor on the Battle Barge" versus "Sanguinius (and no one else) saved the Emperor on the Battle Barge." As no one is trying to make that argument then Occam's Razor is, again, inapplicable.


I'm sure that is correct coming from a science background, but the princple of Occam's Razor, whilst crucial to science, is not solely confined to scientific analysis. Indeed, William of Ockham (after whom the theory was named) wrote in the fourteenth century on philosophy and theology, and the basic principle continues to be used in these areas to attack theories which are unnecessarily complicated.

To quote from him, Pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitate, which translates as "Plurality should not be posited without necessity". On the most basic level, the theory means (at least as far as philosophy goes) that "The simplest explanation is usually the best." Given what we know about the Heresy as described by the background, the simplest explanation of the events has to leave out any mention of O.P.

EDIT: In any case, to avoid getting into a messy and unnecessary debate about scientific theory and philosophy, the basic point is that it is so illogical to try to insert Ollanius Pius on the battle barge that it is useless as a theory, whether or not it is technically possible.

Getz
27-06-2005, 01:33
I'm sure that is correct coming from a science background, but the princple of Occam's Razor, whilst crucial to science, is not solely confined to scientific analysis. Indeed, William of Ockham (after whom the theory was named) wrote in the fourteenth century on philosophy and theology, and the basic principle continues to be used in these areas to attack theories which are unnecessarily complicated.

To quote from him, Pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitate, which translates as "Plurality should not be posited without necessity". On the most basic level, the theory means (at least as far as philosophy goes) that "The simplest explanation is usually the best." Given what we know about the Heresy as described by the background, the simplest explanation of the events has to leave out any mention of O.P.

I'll give you an example to illustrate my point. I apologise for using a somewhat contraversial subject but it's the clearest one I could think of as to explaining why the use of Occam's Razor is flawed (although not useless, I will grant you) when aplied to historical analysis.

Let us ask ourselves why Hitler institurted the Holocaust. Why did he hate Jews so much?

My first theory is that Hitler, like many other Germans, believed the Jews to have sponsered the "stab in the Back" that caused the German economy to collapse in 1918, thus losing the German's the First world war. This caused him to hate the Jews suficiently to want to exterminate them. Certainly, many other Germans went along with the final solution for no better reason.

Theory number two. Hitler had a irrational hatred of Jews form an early age which was only reinforced by the events of 1918. He also, being Austrian of birth, found it much harder to cope with the Defeat of his adopted nation than the "natural" German citizenry and felt it neccessary to lash out at an imaginary enemy and place the blame squarely on them, rather than subscribing to any fault in his adopted ubermensch.

Now, if we disregard a single piece of evidence - the book Mein Kampf - then Occams razor instructs us to select the first theory. The second theory has a couple of additional terms with are redundant as the first theory explains all the facts without recourse to them. Occam's Razor selects the first theory as correct.

However, within Mein Kampf Hitler explains exactly why he hates the Jews so much and the reason is actually better described by theory two.

The problem is that Humans are irrational and can subsribe to multiple different attitudes simultaneously. Occam's Razor does not take into account the fact of our divesity of thought and duplicity with ourselves. If Humans were totally rational and acted like impeccably logical Vulcans all the time the you can apply Occam's Razor as you would to a scientific experiment, but we're not so you can't.

Incidentally, before anyone points out that I witheld some evidence in that example, well it would be impossible to demonstrate the flaw in Occam's Razor without using a artificially contrived example, as any question where we genuinely don't already know the correct answer can hardly used to consitute a proof.

In short, a piece of fluff states that Ollanius Pious existed and that he was involved in the Siege of Terra. We have no further evidence about that person. We cannot simple ignore him because he complicates our "theory." History is more complex in it's cause and effect than science and the complexities of human emotions and irrational behavior come into play. GW could publish an article of Ollanius Pious tommorrow that becomes the hypothetical Mein Kampf of this argument, shedding a whole new light on this Pious fellow was and what he did. Seeing as his fluff doesn't directly contradict the more recent fluff (and it doesn't, unless you read more into it than it actually says, which a lot of people have done on this thread) then you can't simply reject it out of hand because of some assumed use of "Occam's Razor."


Edit:
While I was composing this argument, Dantesinferno has made a good point, let's not get sidetracked with scientific philosophy. However, the Pious fluff doesn't state the Pious was ever on the Battle Barge and it never did, so that argument is rather moot.

Lord Lucifer
27-06-2005, 03:46
We cannot simple ignore him because he complicates our "theory."
Nor can we ignore the fact that GW is known to change their background ;)

People are no longer persuaded to serve the Tyranids by the enigmatic Zoats now are we?
Orky Squigs were originally purely Orky... then changed to have been created by the Tyranids... and then changed back to being purely Orky by virtue of the fact the new 2nd ed. Ork Codex failed to mention Squigs as tyranid bio-constructs, and the Tyranids no longer having the option for Squig Swarms, being replaced by Ripper Swarms as they were.

Background changes. If you can state that Ollanius Pious is equally applicable to the 4th edition background as he was to 1st edition, then you can just as easily state that Squigs are tyranid bio-constructs.
The reasoning is not without its flaws, in other words.


Now, the fun thing about the Heresy is every aspect of background states, quite clearly, that no-one really knows the truth of it, that there are a couple of schools of thought etc.
In this regard, as Adept says, no clear view of the history, only opposing and equally valid theories.

With Ollanius Pious, the thing is it's never even hinted that he went aboard the barge.
He supposedly took a blow for the Emperor. The supposedly is part of the quote, meaning even in 1st ed. they didn't want to state categorically that he did anything, or even existed. He is a myth in the 40K universe, and the truth behind the myth is entirely in question.

We don't know who Ollanius Pious was, what he did, or if he ever existed. And that is the point, the official background is that nobody really knows if he was real, or just some urban legend that got out of hand

DantesInferno
27-06-2005, 04:22
Now, the fun thing about the Heresy is every aspect of background states, quite clearly, that no-one really knows the truth of it, that there are a couple of schools of thought etc.
In this regard, as Adept says, no clear view of the history, only opposing and equally valid theories.

With Ollanius Pious, the thing is it's never even hinted that he went aboard the barge.
He supposedly took a blow for the Emperor. The supposedly is part of the quote, meaning even in 1st ed. they didn't want to state categorically that he did anything, or even existed. He is a myth in the 40K universe, and the truth behind the myth is entirely in question.


Well, there are some things that all modern (ie. 2nd-4th) accounts agree upon - for example that Horus stayed in orbit, that on the battle barge Sanguinius met Horus first, refused to turn and was killed, and so on. The very clear overall picture I get from the various accounts (and let us as players not forget that we probably know more about the Heresy than anyone alive in the Imperium in M40) is that the Emperor did not do any direct fighting in the Siege of the Palace, up until the teleportation into the Warmaster's lair.

People who want to suggest that Ollanius Pius was actually a "real-life" figure who took a bullet for the Emperor must either argue that he took the bullet on Terra or in the Warmaster's barge. Neither seems remotely plausible, from the accounts we have. Thus it would appear that the most logical theories would regard Ollanius Pius as
a) Entirely a construct of the Commissariat etc with no basis in "fact".
b) An ancient hero of the siege, who did not in fact take a bullet for the Emperor, and was later glorified.

Skander
27-06-2005, 09:50
I think Occamīs razor has been wrongly used here.
We have two different theories (for calling them something).
a- Ollanius Pious never got the bullet. It seems the strongest theory, as every little bit of modern fluff seems to point towards this.
b- But ollanius pious is part of modern fluff also...

"a" and "b" are mutually exclusive, it seems clear, and using the razor some of you have pointed that "a" must be truth. But this isnīt the simplest explanation. The simplest explanation is that the two of them MUST be right, as the two appear on modern fluff. But they are exclusive... so we have to find a way to make both explanations valid at the same time.
I think Iīve got this explanation and itīs a sublimation of Pious. All accounts seem to point the absurdity of a guardsman taking the bullet when there were plenty of marines to do so. But at modern days (thatīs the 40th millenium), Ollanius is an accepted part of history. What I think is that Ollanius is a metaphor of the Imperial guard taking enormous casualties on the Heresy, that is, defending the Emperor. After 10 thousand years, burocrats, Inquisitors and that kind of people have made a sublimation of an anonimous Imperial Guardsman, the personification of the IG of that time. this one is Ollanius Pious, and he took a bullet fired by Horus at the Emp and sacrificed his life on the attemp. Reality is it never happened, but the Guard fought bravely and suffered inmense casualties on the Heresy, and that was never forgiven, even if itīs remembrance is a little bit changed after so many millenia.

Getz
27-06-2005, 10:47
In respect to the posts I made earlier, It is my contention that the fluff cannot be dismissed out of hand, as some of the people here seem to wan to do. Ollanius Pious himself maybe purely allegorical, an invention of the Commissariat or a real historical figure who's myth has outgrown the reality of whatever it was that he did.

That doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to me.

The Fluff exists and does not contradict the modern fluff (indeed it doesn't even say much in definate terms at all) so whatever disgruntled BA players might think ( ;) ), there is no reason to expunge of this piece of IG background entirely...

captainhatred
01-07-2005, 09:08
ok heres my two cents feel free to ignore.
Almost all fluff in codexes and whatnot is written from the point of view of the army in that book, and is scewed just like history differs in different cultures. Each army believes itself to be right and just. THe IG believe that its sacrifices of normal men that makes the empire what it is. Space Marines believe that they are the ones that are the guardians of the Empire. Etc. As far as the Sanguinus argument goes, What he did is not in debate...why he did it is. A pro Blood Angels argument is that he knew he had to face Horus and die so that the Emperor could kill Horus, He came across Horus and it was a choice.
A) Obey the Emperor, Fight Horus, die if need be
B) Betray the Emperor by not Figting Horus, Die at the Emperors hand.

An anti blood angels view ( held by many members of strict chapters) is that Sanguinus was tainted from the get go. He had wings and it was blood lust that drove him to fight Horus alone. It was his pride and Delusions of grandeur that made him think he could beat Horus.
I belive some chapters ( Imperial Fist?) hate Sanguinus because if he had just waited for the emperor and they had fought Horus Together then the Emperor might have lived.

Yet I digress.
The point of Fluff both new and old is too give you a taste of the army that you are playing. Pick an army stay loyal too it, read all of the fluff for that army that you can get your hands on, and don't let the propaganda that other armys might try to spread,cause your faith to waiver.

Like me personally I play Deathguard. I believe that the Emperor was a mad man. His fate was sealed when he tried to proclaim himself a God. The True gods elevated those that understood. Under the leadership of Horus the Emperor was killed. Mortarion taught us to worship Grandfather Nurgle, There are no Imperial lies that are not undone by looking upon the face of death itself.

Hellebore
03-07-2005, 02:42
The absence of pious isn't proof of his absence, just because the 'new' heresy fluff doesn't mention him does not mean he isn't still there.

Remember that the new fluff is marine-o-centric and thus only mentions what they got up to, not the imperial army.

As the quote does not overtly place pious on Horus' barge at the last showdown, then it could of happened any time before this.

My opinion though is much more cynical- I think that pious has been left out purposely due to GW Commissarial edict- that is MARINES ARE THE COOLEST EVA!

THe GW commissars have altered the propaganda to make marines a much cooler army- everything must be about marines. Marines, marines, marines. Did I mention Marines?

Thus this pathetic human known as pious doesn't sell marines and takes the glory away from some primarchs (not that I don't like the sanguinius tragedy) so out he goes.

Maybe we will see a revival of the old fluff where we see a big line up of would be heroes all getting knocked off one at a time- I can see a big chorus line getting zapped by horus as they do the can-can in front of the emperor to protect him-

"Its my turn to be pulverised to save the emperor's life! Screamed Pious indignantly, "Nuh-ahh! It's me, I get to be blown away in a screaming pile of guts to save the emperor!" Nameless imperial fist terminator #346 said petulantly. "Not before I let myself be slaughtered by the arch heretic to provide tragic overtones and distress my father while also providing a single chink for my lord to deliver the killing blow"Sanguinius declared regally with a flip of his flake-free shining gold locks.


hellebore