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Cap'n Umgrotz
15-08-2006, 00:02
Someone just pointed out to me that Commander Farsight's name means "Traitor" in Goa'uld (from stargate).
I already knew that they'd nicked a bunch of stuff from Moorcock (Chaos, the choas undivided symbol, the idea of heavily armoured maniacs being fused to their armour, Beastmen as a race) and have pilfered a ton of other stuff over time, but that was painful. (And this from the company that'll sue the balls off anyone who looks at them funny)
Any other instances of stealering by GW that people can think of?Really bad examples especially?

Some guy (UK)
15-08-2006, 00:31
Pretty much all their fantasy stuff is nicked from Tolkein type books, and then the 40k background is just 'Tolkein type books in space, plus some bits from si-fi stories, baked in the oven until the edges are a golden brown'.

Later, Some Guy

Minister
15-08-2006, 00:35
I'm sure Lara Croft was mentioned (with a modified name) in the Tomb Kings book...

Xavier
15-08-2006, 00:37
lol, I never actually noticed that till now.

nurgleman
15-08-2006, 00:41
*Shudders remembering filthy harald in Genieve*

Ravenous
15-08-2006, 01:47
here was a really good one, remember sly marbo the "one man army" from the catachan codex?

switch the M and R around = Rambo
and as for sly? whats sylvestor stallones nickname? hmm.

not to mention all the anime overtones in the tau.

Shaper Shakra
15-08-2006, 01:52
here was a really good one, remember sly marbo the "one man army" from the catachan codex?

switch the M and R around = Rambo
and as for sly? whats sylvestor stallones nickname? hmm.

not to mention all the anime overtones in the tau.

Wow...how did I miss the Sly Marbo thing.....

Ravenous
15-08-2006, 01:53
that and the pic of him looks exactly like stallone

Charax
15-08-2006, 02:34
Someone just pointed out to me that Commander Farsight's name means "Traitor" in Goa'uld (from stargate)

No, it dosen't. His name isn't Shol'va. It's similar, but his name dosen't mean anything in Gua'uld.

Dais
15-08-2006, 03:04
didnt i read somewhere the tau ethereals were based loosly on the gua'uld?
i wish i could remember where i read that.
any ideas what shadowsun's name means? or spacepope?

Malphax
15-08-2006, 03:53
or spacepope?

That's priceless. You get a cookie.


From this point henceforth, Aun'Va shall be known as SPACEPOPE! Now go have a seat next to the Love Wolves.

Hellebore
15-08-2006, 05:24
That's priceless. You get a cookie.


From this point henceforth, Aun'Va shall be known as SPACEPOPE! Now go have a seat next to the Love Wolves.

SpacePope has been his nickname ever since he was put up as a rumoured release.

Get with the times man:p

Hellebore

Sick
15-08-2006, 05:36
Lionel Johnson had a poem called The Dark Angel.

Chapter: Dark Angels
Primarch: Lion El'Johnson

Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lionel_Johnson)

DCLXVI
15-08-2006, 05:43
I remember at the UK Games Day before the Tau were released, they had pictures of aliens (don't know the actual race, sorry) from Star Trek on the wall. Their explanation? 'We take our influences from all sorts of sources'.
Hmmm.........:wtf:

jimbobodoll
15-08-2006, 06:12
Dont forget some of the fantasy world characters... Like the guy who 'discovered' lustria, marco colombo... But is twisting the real world more or less sad than nicking things from other sci-fi and fantasy stories?

sulla
15-08-2006, 06:49
Pretty much all their fantasy stuff is nicked from Tolkein type books, and then the 40k background is just 'Tolkein type books in space, plus some bits from si-fi stories, baked in the oven until the edges are a golden brown'.

Later, Some Guy

Wow! Did Tolkein 'invent Elves and Dwarves and trolls then? Or did he 'nick' them from mythology?

scwolf
15-08-2006, 06:58
The Fire Caste Symbol bears a striking resemblence to the logo from Bungie's Marathon series of games, a symbol that Bungie themselves recycled for use in their Halo series.

When Black Roses Bloom
15-08-2006, 07:06
Conrad Curze or the "Nighthaunter", Primarch of the Night Lords. The name is actually of Collonel Curze (I don't know if the spelling is right) from the movie "Apocalypse Now", being Marlon Brando as Collonel Curze. He has these simillarities with Nighthaunter:

Wackyness and visions of self destruction
Uprising against the tactical army and isolation to a hellish place
Being killed by assassins after a long monologue

Then we have Horus, the Agyptian God, first born son, who turned against his father and been destroyed.

The new Rhino tank being a complete copy of the standard APC in modern times.

Darn, I can't remember something else right now.

Dunkelheit
15-08-2006, 07:20
Conrad Curze or the "Nighthaunter", Primarch of the Night Lords. The name is actually of Collonel Curze (I don't know if the spelling is right) from the movie "Apocalypse Now", being Marlon Brando as Collonel Curze. He has these simillarities with Nighthaunter:

Wackyness and visions of self destruction
Uprising against the tactical army and isolation to a hellish place
Being killed by assassins after a long monologue



His name was Colonel Kurtz, and don't you love that man's wackyness and such? I do.

When Black Roses Bloom
15-08-2006, 07:29
His name was Colonel Kurtz, and don't you love that man's wackyness and such? I do.


I do. In fact I love the monologue. Everytime I see this movie I get goosebumps. And for your eyes only Dunkelheit:


I've seen horrors... horrors that you've seen. But you have no right to call me a murderer. You have a right to kill me. You have a right to do that... but you have no right to judge me. It's impossible for words to describe what is necessary to those who do not know what horror means. Horror. Horror has a face... and you must make a friend of horror. Horror and moral terror are your friends. If they are not then they are enemies to be feared. They are truly enemies. I remember when I was with Special Forces. Seems a thousand centuries ago. We went into a camp to inoculate the children. We left the camp after we had inoculated the children for Polio, and this old man came running after us and he was crying. He couldn't see. We went back there and they had come and hacked off every inoculated arm. There they were in a pile. A pile of little arms. And I remember... I... I... I cried. I wept like some grandmother. I wanted to tear my teeth out. I didn't know what I wanted to do. And I want to remember it. I never want to forget it. I never want to forget. And then I realized... like I was shot... like I was shot with a diamond... a diamond bullet right through my forehead. And I thought: My God... the genius of that. The genius. The will to do that. Perfect, genuine, complete, crystalline, pure. And then I realized they were stronger than we. Because they could stand that these were not monsters. These were men... trained cadres. These men who fought with their hearts, who had families, who had children, who were filled with love... but they had the strength... the strength... to do that. If I had ten divisions of those men our troubles here would be over very quickly. You have to have men who are moral... and at the same time who are able to utilize their primordial instincts to kill without feeling... without passion... without judgment... without judgment. Because it's judgment that defeats us.

Shadowfax
15-08-2006, 07:34
GW are shameless borrowers, that much is true... but it seems like a lot of you have troubling separating theft from homage

When Black Roses Bloom
15-08-2006, 07:42
I think that there is a big difference between "I'm borrowing a name" and using as a trademark (which is being reffered in every book) the Chaos Star for e.g.

Dunkelheit
15-08-2006, 07:55
Their shameless borrowing isn't particularly terrible, just don't take it so seriously and when you're in a 40K mood stop thinking about everything they may have copied and/or stolen from elsewhere. If you're playing about in the 40K universe and thinking about every other universe out there that GW has ripped off, then of course you're not going to enjoy it.

Who cares if they rip people off and then sue the balls off of those who would do the same to them, we all love their universe and give them the money to keep ripping things off in order to create their own little universe that takes all of these things ...

Perhaps there's something in that, they take ideas and such from all over the place and put them together. Thus taking ideas they like and combining them to make one much bigger kickarse idea, then packaging it and selling it to us who all love their compilation of slightly altered ideas taken from somewhere else.

Wasn't there once a quote about artist's and stealing ideas? Or was it Quentin Tarantino talking about stealing Lady Snowblood ... I should shut up now.

Edit: I love that Kurtz fellow ... and alot of the other characters played by Marlon Brando, cheers for the quote thinger-majigy.

Jedi152
15-08-2006, 07:57
How has a thread about GW 'borrowing' stuff gone for 3 pages without a mention of the Necrons? They have a rule called "We'll Be Back!" for god's sake!


I'm sure Lara Croft was mentioned (with a modified name) in the Tomb Kings book...
Really? I'll have a look tonight.

When Black Roses Bloom
15-08-2006, 08:04
Their shameless borrowing isn't particularly terrible, just don't take it so seriously and when you're in a 40K mood stop thinking about everything they may have copied and/or stolen from elsewhere. If you're playing about in the 40K universe and thinking about every other universe out there that GW has ripped off, then of course you're not going to enjoy it.

Who cares if they rip people off and then sue the balls off of those who would do the same to them, we all love their universe and give them the money to keep ripping things off in order to create their own little universe that takes all of these things ...
Perhaps there's something in that, they take ideas and such from all over the place and put them together. Thus taking ideas they like and combining them to make one much bigger kickarse idea, then packaging it and selling it to us who all love their compilation of slightly altered ideas taken from somewhere else.

Wasn't there once a quote about artist's and stealing ideas? Or was it Quentin Tarantino talking about stealing Lady Snowblood ... I should shut up now.

Edit: I love that Kurtz fellow ... and alot of the other characters played by Marlon Brando, cheers for the quote thinger-majigy.

When you pay someone for doing something and then provide it to you then you have every right to tell that they are shameless borrowers in a conversation.

It's like the taxi drivers here in Greece. We use them, and we call them names in a conversation because they are the main traffic problem, but when they go on a strike, we still call them names because we can't go to work.

Sybaronde
15-08-2006, 08:56
No, it dosen't. His name isn't Shol'va. It's similar, but his name dosen't mean anything in Gua'uld.

Well, it does sound similar. At least in my oppinion. I always thought it was spelled 'cho'va' until I heard some random First Prime say it with a tint of that L in it. Anyway, the bricks are there. He was the most respected warrior in the empire, he betrayed his masters and founded his own 'nation' (like the Jaffa Nation).

So it sounds similar, but is spelled differently. Just like Mad Donna for Necromunda and Mon'kiegh from the Eldar codices.

Goq Gar
15-08-2006, 09:02
here was a really good one, remember sly marbo the "one man army" from the catachan codex?

switch the M and R around = Rambo
and as for sly? whats sylvestor stallones nickname? hmm.

not to mention all the anime overtones in the tau.

Sly marbo was awesome. IMO he should have had exploding arrows, small blast templates, S10 AP1, but thats just me <_<

Over tones? More like, not enough half topless japanese school girls! (for the greater good of course <_< *squeeze squeeze*)

Gen.Steiner
15-08-2006, 09:03
Wow! Did Tolkein 'invent Elves and Dwarves and trolls then? Or did he 'nick' them from mythology?

Tolkein turned elves from 6" high imp-like fiends to 6' tall sinister if vaguely good types who were less likely to kill all your family for kicks and abduct your children. Dwarves he re-imagined completely, ditto Trolls (to a point).

That's where JRRT differs from GW. JRRT actually re-imagined stuff, and built a world - GW combines their own imagination with general ideas-thievery. :P

Not that I care any more, I just get amused and smile.

Sai-Lauren
15-08-2006, 09:22
I'm sure Lara Croft was mentioned (with a modified name) in the Tomb Kings book...

Clarrisa Lhoft.
It's in the notebook-style section towards the back, where another explorer is investigating an Tomb Kings pyramid that she's already met a sticky end in (presumably having bumped her nose into every single wall, randomly run around in circles, and done a handstand everytime she's climbed up a large stone):D

I suppose it comes down to personal interpretation - where does an homage become a rip-off.

Dat Wildboy
15-08-2006, 09:26
ah, the elves and fairies etc are portrayed as 6'' tall nowadays, but in the 17th century and before, they were believed to be real (superstition) and to be 6' tall creatures of insane power that were fickle and change sides, views and moods at will. Tolkien hated the 'Enid Blighton' elves and mythical creatures that is unfortunatly still in use today, where they were small, lived in toadstools and were always happy, and they helped children who ate cream cakes with lashings of ginger beer. he reinstated the 'proper' look of elves and goblins etc.

read Shakespeare's 'A Midsummer Night's Dream' too. you will see!


so its not ripped from tolkien per se, but taken from english, scottish and mainly irish superstitions and enhanced by tolkien. GW take that and put it in space with high technology and a dark past... ta da! Eldar!

but then even 'eldar' is tolkien's elvish for the people of the stars; very fitting for them, even if it is extreme thieving- sorry, borrowing.

just my 2 cents

Some guy (UK)
15-08-2006, 10:22
Wow! Did Tolkein 'invent Elves and Dwarves and trolls then? Or did he 'nick' them from mythology?

He took the basics- name and appearence, and gave them the usual features- such as arrogance to other races. He fleshed them out AFAIK. GW uses Tolkein's and similar people's takes on Elves (I.e. Elves are human sized, not 6 inch tall pixie things), Dwarfs, and the like.

Later, Some Guy

ArtificerArmour
15-08-2006, 12:26
It's not theft, it's hommage. And I'm quite happy to follow them and make some of my models hommages. Infact I'm building and Ork Kroozer called the Enta-prowz, with nacelles and neck section, and call it's warlord "captain kork and mister spork".

Now, lets flame me instead of GW.

Cap'n Umgrotz
15-08-2006, 12:57
That'd be more believable if they ever, ever referanced the authors they "pay hommage to" but they don't, and are far too sue happy.
It's kinda scummy, but this thread is more for kind of "roll your eyes and groan" amusement than a serious flame. I think their thefts from Moorcock are more obvious than the Tolkien ones, if only because elves, dwarves and whatnot have been around befor Tolkien.
Sly Marbo, now that I never noticed. And of course, the awful Shaeffers Last Chancers-Dirty Dozen anybody?

Minister
15-08-2006, 13:09
That one they admitted in the White Dwarf (and had a Where's Donald Duck competition in the same issue).

ArtificerArmour
15-08-2006, 13:18
They admitted most of the rules for the catachan codex was inspired by predator

feugan
15-08-2006, 13:35
Re: Conrad Curze
I consider this to fall firmly under the category of homage; an oblique reference both to the Marlon Brando Colonel Kurtz character in Apocalpyse Now and the author Joseph Conrad on whose novel Heart of Darkness the film is loosely based.

I really don't have a problem with this; very little fiction is truly original, as the ideas that resonate most with an audience are those that are deeply ingrained, and most of the 40K/fantasy themes draw heavily on Celtic, Nordic and Teutonic mythology, the latter itself inextricably linked to common themes in near-Eastern myth if you go back far enough.

In the main, GW very effectively integrates various fantasy and sci-fi archetypes, and it's absolutely true to say that they draw very heavily on Moorcock, Tolkein, Lovecraft, Heinlein, Geiger amongst others. Where this falls down is in some of the cases identified above; Sly Marbo, We'll Be Back and so on strike me as rather less clever.

I remember a WD article Jervis Johnson wrote back when Necromunda was first released (1997?) about the archetypes resonant in the major houses; Mad Max bikers (Orlock), Amazons (Escher), Chicago gangsters (Delaque) - this isn't a bad thing, it's why we enjoy the hobby!

Finally, are GW really as litigious as everyone is keen to make out? I'm quite willing to accept they may be, but I wonder if there's not an element of 'My friend told me that some redshirt once overheard his girlfriend's brother's 2nd cousin talking to a lawyer who once thought about defending someone in case they got sued by GW'...

Dreamforge, yes, but anyone else?

EarthScorpion
15-08-2006, 13:49
Moreover, Kurze was killed by the Callidus Assassain, M'shen. And who was the person who played the killer of the Colonel? Why, Martin Shen!

And there are lots of stuff taken from Dune (the original, good ones, not the low grade toilet paper released by KJA and his son); the Empire kept in power by an Elite military force, certain similarityies between the GEoM and Leto II, both with the fact that they were killed by their greatest creation (Horus and Siona), but the fact that they lived on in a not-truely-human state), the fact that the SoB are basically a copy of the Fish Speakers (sadly lacking the loose morals of the latter), the whole Butlerian Jihad with humanity getting rid of machines and following religious prohibitations against them, the fact that Dune occurs 10,000 years after the Jihad, while 40k is 10,000 years afer the Hersey...

Hellebore
15-08-2006, 14:25
I won't disagree with ANY of the things stated in this thread, but I will say one thing.

NONE of this makes 40k any less awesome. It is my favourite scifi setting, the atmosphere is so evocative, and the story so rich, they could have transplanted every story ever written into it and I would still like it.

Because despite 40k's overt 'theft' of ideas, it is still its own beast, and I really, really like that beast.

Hellebore

nurgleman
15-08-2006, 14:38
I don't see any problem with taking ideas because everyone else in the genre is. The only thing I don't like is when people try and claim something else is a warhammer ripoff and lacking because of it even though it really isnt.

Cap'n Umgrotz
15-08-2006, 14:46
I'd just like some sort of official "Yeah, we got our ideas from these sources, so if you like X army, you'll like the work of Y author!". Role Playing books do that, I just think it's common decency really, no skin off GW's nose.
Who remembers the old lizardmen characters from 5th ed?
Itzi Bitzi and Kroq...deary deary me!

Gaebriel
15-08-2006, 14:53
Things like those Tolkien wrote about are considered generic Fantasy these days, and are not subject to theft. It's a bit more complicated with Science fiction, because there has been no single trendsetter with the resonance of Tolkien in SF.

I for my part like those little "links" to literary, popcultural or historical figures - makes me smile then and now :)

Cap'n Umgrotz
15-08-2006, 14:56
I'm not saying "OMG THIEVES", just, it'd be nice if they'd acknowledge it.
Y'know, "Moorcock is where we nicked our Chaos ideas from, these are the names of his books"
Wouldn't hurt, and it'd be nice.I also like a lot of this stuff, and it makes me groan and laugh at the same time, but a reccomended reading section would be polite.

spevna
15-08-2006, 15:17
Does anyone remember a short WHF story in WD that was based on the character Snake Pliskin?

Cap'n Umgrotz
15-08-2006, 15:26
Outta that I'd say electoos are original, from my knowledge, but the other two not particularly.

Dspankdo
15-08-2006, 15:55
The reason tau are based so heavily on anime is because GW was trying to bring in the anime fans in japan and other asian countries. purely marketing motives.

ArtificerArmour
15-08-2006, 15:58
Not because it was redically different to what else has been made for 40K?

Hellebore
15-08-2006, 16:13
The reason tau are based so heavily on anime is because GW was trying to bring in the anime fans in japan and other asian countries. purely marketing motives.

They are, but they still have that slightly dirty patina of 40k on them. Whether they were created purely as a marketing strategy doesn't matter if they WORK, does it?

There is no powering up, or "omg he is 34.445334455% more powerful than we ever could have imagined!"

Or "He has beyond, BEYOND, God like speed!"

They appear superficially anime-esque in DESIGN, but not in execution.

And that is why I think the tau fit 40k.

hellebore

Ophidicus
15-08-2006, 16:34
Does anyone remember a short WHF story in WD that was based on the character Snake Pliskin?

You mean Solid Snake aka Iriquois Pliskin? GW are far, far from the only company to shamelessly rip off popular culture... ;) I'm with Hellebore on this one, who cares where it's ripped from as long as it's ace!? I like space elves, undead robots, cyberstition and Aliens... not so keen on little grey men with ray guns though.

Flame of Udun
15-08-2006, 16:37
I think there are 3 different categories here:
1) Homage: for example - Sly Marbo, Marco Colombo, etc. Nod of the hat type things done for fun. Blatently obvious and not TM'd

2) Inspired by:for example - Tau inspired by japanese samurai/mech styles but not based exactly on any one character or idea so for the most part the design is GW's and thats fair enough.

3) Plagiarism:for example - the word Eldar is directly from Tolkeins own mythology and refers to the "elves of the stars" this however is trade marked by GW and is IMHO direct plagiarism.


Things like those Tolkien wrote about are considered generic Fantasy these days, and are not subject to theft. It's a bit more complicated with Science fiction, because there has been no single trendsetter with the resonance of Tolkien in SF.
What about Frank Herbert's Dune? I would say that Dune is as important to SF as Tolkein is to fantasy. Even GW has pinched some of it, see navigators in Dune are mutated by the spice Melange and are the only people who can pilot a starship through fold space where as in 40k navigators are mutated humans who are the only people who can pilot a ship through the warp. Coincidence? I think not.

swordwind
15-08-2006, 16:48
You mean Solid Snake aka Iriquois Pliskin?

Where do you think Dave got that name from? Escape from New York/LA. Hence Raiden's reply of "I get the Pliskin part".

Space Marines rip off more or less the entire contents of Starship Troopers aswell.

Ophidicus
15-08-2006, 17:09
Where do you think Dave got that name from? Escape from New York/LA. Hence Raiden's reply of "I get the Pliskin part".

Space Marines rip off more or less the entire contents of Starship Troopers aswell.

Why do think I winked boyo?

Damien 1427
15-08-2006, 18:10
Space Marines rip off more or less the entire contents of Starship Troopers aswell.

Well, I imagine Imperial Stormtroopers were the more obvious idea, if only because GW cited it as such in an ancient White Dwarf.

Minister
15-08-2006, 18:12
And in the Rogue Trader book, if I do recall. They've become more Starship Troopers as the edition progresses, though.

BrainFireBob
15-08-2006, 19:07
The problem is, not all of it's ace.

There's been a fair amount ripped off from Battletech, too, or from the same sources Battletech drew from. Battletech's been around a fairly long time.

I too wish there was at least an "homages" page. I like the same stuff the GW staff does- evidence my liking the GW universe! I'd like tips for things of which I am not aware.

Although I thought the "red" Chaos codex potentially had one under Spiky Bitz "tributes to minor gods like Mor'cock and Phazel" - the first one's Moorcock.

To be honesty, I wish Moorcock would do the same thing- or I could look some of his up- Hawkmoon drives me nuts, not being British, and hence knowing I'm not catching all the pop culture references.

And really, daemonic mastery, the dark blade, black sword, sword of secrets and its twin, the lion sword- again and again with the Elric references.

EDITED TO ADD: And the judges of Justice Rock, or wherever the Iron Warriors first campaigned, were from Judge Dredd.

BodhiTree
15-08-2006, 19:09
In The Tempest by Shakespeare, Prospero is a sorceror - and yeah, Magnus the Red... Sorcery? Yeah.

There's also a character named Caliban - I'm not sure if that reference applies though. Caliban was also another name for Excalibur, dunno if that stacks up either.

cybertron2000uk
15-08-2006, 19:10
I love GW 40k uni over transformers and last star wars..the toys are better...
(transformers are a close second! and they were a mix of toy lines aswell)
I've never seen anything to do with the matrix in GW fluff yet...
they have everything else...I do like to see more aliens for the tau...

I cant belive they didnt do any new fluff for the cities of death minis!!

Crazy Tom
15-08-2006, 19:59
It's a sad fact in this world that, barring one or two notable expections, *there* *are* *no* *original* *stories*. Nothing truly original anyhow. Most of LOTR's key themes are borrowed / inspired by Wagner's ring cycle and the earlier Nordic myths. Old stories and myths turn up time and again in literature. The only way you can make something really different is to take as many different ideas as possible and group them together coherently... GW anyone?

Another example is Olympos by Dan Simmons - aliens, dinosaurs, killer robots, Shakespeare, cyborgs, Greek gods, Proust...

The two exceptions are Iain Banks and Stephen Erikson. Both of their stuff is markedly different to anything I've ever come across. In both cases this is mainly thematic and stylistic. Erikson has created his own races and histories for them, and cultures - so even races which bear passing similarity to others have been changed enough to give us something completely new. Banks has gone into detail with technology and aliens, sociology and general geniusness...

Anyways, the point is, it doesn't matter if you borrow / are inspired by other works - provided you can put the stuff together in an interesting way you'll get away with it.

Flame of Udun
15-08-2006, 20:38
The problem is GW don't just borrow they taker and claim as their own which is a different matter entirely, its common knowledge that Tolkein drew aspects of his mythology from much of the pre existing myths of northern europe but he was primarily a linguist and middle earth was somewhere he could play with those languages he created plus I don't recall him claiming particular ownership of the ideas. Olympos by Simmons is a great read and I'd heartily recommend it to anybody however Simmons does not claim ownership of the themes he uses in the story only the story itself and any components to the story which he created himself. Anyone directly copying his (Simmons) work and submitting it as their own is commiting an act of plagiarism which is an entirely different to using some preexisting material, such as the Trojan war which features in Olympos, as inspiration but creating an original concept from the aforementioned material.

As to there being no original stories each story created is more often than not an original work however I believe that in theory there are concieved to be only 7 basic plots. These are:

1. Overcoming the monster -- defeating some force which threatens...
e.g. most Hollywood movies; Star Wars, James Bond.

2. The Quest -- typically a group setoff in search of something and
(usually) find it. e.g. Watership Down, Pilgrim's Progress.

3. Journey and Return -- the hero journeys away from home to somewhere
different and finally comes back having experienced something and
maybe changed for the better. e.g. Wizard of Oz, Gullivers Travels.

4. Comedy - not neccesarily a funny plot. Some kind of
misunderstanding or ignorance is created that keeps parties apart
which is resolved towards the end bringing them back together. e.g.
Bridget Jones Diary, War and Peace.

5. Tragedy - Someone is tempted in some way, vanity, greed etc and
becomes increasingly desperate or trapped by their actions until at a
climax they usually die. Unless it's a Hollywood movie, when they
escape to a happy ending. e.g. Devils' Advocate, Hamlet.

6. Rebirth - hero is captured or oppressed and seems to be in a state
of living death until it seems all is lost when miraculously they are
freed. e.g. Snow White.

7. Rags to Riches - self explanatory really. e.g. Cinderella &
derivatives (all 27,000 of them)!!!

Each of these plots goes through 4 or 5 main phases which are
universally recognisable and re-used. Some stories choose to jump in
at phase 3 or leave early and often leave us feeling unsatisfied.

anyway I think this is getting a touch off topic :D

Lostanddamned
15-08-2006, 20:53
I love GW 40k uni over transformers and last star wars..the toys are better...
(transformers are a close second! and they were a mix of toy lines aswell)
I've never seen anything to do with the matrix in GW fluff yet...
they have everything else...I do like to see more aliens for the tau...

I cant belive they didnt do any new fluff for the cities of death minis!!

I remember reading somewhere of a planet where the humans had allowed themeselves to be stored by machines, but I'm not sure where - May have been an IA or the EOT book...

Grot
16-08-2006, 07:21
No one's going to call the hive tyrant [and to a lesser extent the tyranid warriors] inspired by the Queen Alien from "Aliens"?

I guess I'll do it.

Flame of Udun
16-08-2006, 07:30
Very true, especially the 2nd version of the Hive tyrant.

Damien 1427
16-08-2006, 07:46
I remember reading somewhere of a planet where the humans had allowed themeselves to be stored by machines, but I'm not sure where - May have been an IA or the EOT book...

I think that was the 3rd edition rulebook.

Sai-Lauren
16-08-2006, 08:05
There's also a character named Caliban - I'm not sure if that reference applies though. Caliban was also another name for Excalibur, dunno if that stacks up either.
Well, considering the story of Lion El'Johnson does stack up quite nicely alongside that of Arthur Pendragon (ok, Luther was his best friend rather than his son - so closer to Lancelot than Mordred), it wouldn't surprise me ;) .

Shibboleth
16-08-2006, 08:12
The ancient sumerian god Nergal was a god of disease.

Not to mention Tyranids and C'thulu, or C'tan and C'thulu.

Besides the Arbites being straight out of Judge Dredd, the Space Marine bikes are too (especially noticable in the first edition ones).
I think one of the (many) reasons behind the birth of 40K was that GW had been doing the Judge Dredd game but then lost the rights. They wanted something to replace it with, so combined that kind of setting with starship troopers/ancient history/literature/occult influences, etc. and voila.

I think it's a testament to a well educated, knowledgable and literate bunch of guys, not being stuck up about it like some know it all toff's, but using it for the greater good... :angel:

WarpWhisperer
16-08-2006, 08:53
My Dad has a copy of Laserburn, a 15mm scale Sc-Fi skirmish game:

http://www.15mm.co.uk/images/thumblaserburnrules_1.jpg

This has a load of stuff that predates 40K, and is very familar: Bolters (in Pistol, Boltgun and Heavy Bolter forms), Conversion Beamers (now defunct, I know), Flak, Mesh, Power and Dreadnaught Armour types, all the Las guns, Flame pistols and much, much more that I can't remember. It almost looks like this was fused with the then Warhammer rules to create a hybrid Rogue Trader....

And to back me up...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laserburn

My dad is convinced that Laserburn itself was based partly on the original Starship Troopers, so I guess it proves that what goes around comes around....

Lord Zarkov
16-08-2006, 09:08
and designed by the head of citadel miniatures as well...

Minister
16-08-2006, 10:31
I think that was the 3rd edition rulebook.
I belive it was originally in the 2nd edition Guard Codex, and hence predates The Matrix.

On the other hand, I've only recently discovered just how unoriginal The Matrix was.

ThousandPlateaus
16-08-2006, 10:54
I cant believe noone's mentioned Skeksis and Lords of Change yet?!

Only problem I have with any of GWs 'hommages' is their use of Joseph Mengele's name - just a bit out of order.

BodhiTree
16-08-2006, 14:18
Well, considering the story of Lion El'Johnson does stack up quite nicely alongside that of Arthur Pendragon (ok, Luther was his best friend rather than his son - so closer to Lancelot than Mordred), it wouldn't surprise me ;) .
Well, that settles that. Hehe. :)

There were some other easy ones for me to pick out too. I mean, everyone here already knows Macharius was Alexander the Great. I always placed Yarrick's defense of Hades as a take on Thermopylae. The fluff for the Valhallans in the 2nd Ed. Codex reminded me of Stalingrad.

I also like how the horde always invades from the East. So many empires in Western history found their uncountable enemies in Asia or the Middle East. And so yeah, it'd make no sense to me if the Tyranids had invaded from any other side of the galaxy.

Although my most favourite reference in 40k will forever be the Black Templars' Holy Orb of Antioch.

Flame Boy
16-08-2006, 21:24
Shamelessly lifted from Wikipedia after searching several other websites without success.


There are clear similarities between the Demiurg and the Bentusi from the Homeworld series of games. This can be seen by both races being almost entirely spacebound, with no home planets, and that both the Bentusi and Demiurg also sell other races ion cannon technology. Furthermore, in the Tau language, the Demiurg are known as "Bentu'sin", which literally means 'wise-gifted ones'.

Their ships might not look like giant space-prawns, but there are enough similarities.

Xander-K
16-08-2006, 22:03
Well, it does sound similar. At least in my oppinion. I always thought it was spelled 'cho'va' until I heard some random First Prime say it with a tint of that L in it. Anyway, the bricks are there. He was the most respected warrior in the empire, he betrayed his masters and founded his own 'nation' (like the Jaffa Nation).

So it sounds similar, but is spelled differently. Just like Mad Donna for Necromunda and Mon'kiegh from the Eldar codices.
hmmm not really seeing the link there, there are lots of jaffa words that sound like that, its just the way of the language, and also some words in klingon. I don't see why they would think "oh yea that guy in stargate said shova i think that would make a splendid Tau name" there are better ways to make up names.

cav da man
16-08-2006, 22:28
i find the best names tend to come from word play mixing languages. The general problem everyone has is the fact that GW has to claim everything theyve clearly stolen if they were loose about this then there wouldnt be a problem would there?

Son of the Lion
16-08-2006, 22:43
I think you're overating the GW creative process - it is mostly harmless, tongue in cheek pop-culture piracy. It's not hard at all to imagine one of the designers scribbling away in front of the TV when SG-1 happens to be on and hearing 'sho-va' (or however it's spelt or pronounced in the highly serious and academic world of fictional alien languages :D) while he's working on an idea for so-called traitor to the Tau race. In fact, I'll go further and say it's a bit too much of a coincidence hey?

I personally quite enjoy the (admittedly often cheesey) references, and they're no worse than naming a DA special character Naaman because he originated in a campaign where he consistently died in the first 2 turns of every game....

I do think it's downright cheeky for GW to then mercilessly persecute anyone who poaches 'their' intellectual property though.

P.S. 'Grishnak' from the RT scenario and many Orky armies since. Anyone mentioned him yet?

The Venerable Archmage
16-08-2006, 22:45
Who was it who said that to steal from one is plagarism, but to steal from many is research?

Anyway, I sometimes think 40k feels a bit like this. It's drawn from too many sources to be a direct copy of anything, so it's a truly original synthesis, even if they have been a little blatant in their borrowings at times.

Mikko
16-08-2006, 22:59
Caliban was also another name for Excalibur, dunno if that stacks up either.
Actually, that's "Caliburn" or, more precisely, "Caledfwlch" - the original Gaelic name for Excalibur. "Caliban" is Prospero's monstrous slave in Tempest.

Also, one thing I haven't seen mentioned is that the bloated, gothic, pseudo-Medieval, xenophobic Imperium of Man is pretty much lifted wholesale from 2000AD's Nemesis the Warlock, right down to its (un)dead god-ruler. And NtW, of course, takes place in the same fictional universe as Judge Dredd... :)

Son of the Lion
16-08-2006, 23:06
Sorry, I thought that had been done already - inquisition, terminators et al, 2000AD definitely had a freehold on the cynical, darker view of the future well before GW muscled in.

As for stealing the Arbites, I can kind of excuse that since GWcitadel used to produce the Judge Dredd minis and RPG.



P.S. Nemesis the Warlock kicked ass, especially when it crossed with ABC warriors. Spread the word....

Mikko
16-08-2006, 23:18
P.S. Nemesis the Warlock kicked ass, especially when it crossed with ABC warriors. Spread the word....
Indeed! Personally I prefer the earlier issues, with O'Neil's quirky art and the awesome over-the-top brutal humour; when Bryan Talbot took over the artwork it somehow completely changed its tone as well, despite Pat Mills staying as the writer... I don't know how that happened, but it just lost the totally whacked-out crazy charm the early stories had and became much more standard dark SF fare.

But still... CREDO! :skull:

Antaeus
16-08-2006, 23:31
Graham McNeill wrote a piece about an Imperial prisoner on the Penal world of Bar'el...

(It might only be Scots who get this joke) It's not exactly theft, more of a pun.

BodhiTree
17-08-2006, 00:33
Actually, that's "Caliburn" or, more precisely, "Caledfwlch" - the original Gaelic name for Excalibur. "Caliban" is Prospero's monstrous slave in Tempest. Yeah, I did mention that Caliban was from The Tempest, but the wikipedia page I was fact-checking mentioned that Caliban was another spelling/pronunciation for Caliburn.

tuebor
17-08-2006, 01:01
One of my favourite GW "inspirations" is Inquisitor Lord Fyodr Karamazov. For those who don't know his story, to make a long story short, he executed a priest who led a world in a counter-rebellion against a rebellious governor, and some factions of the Inquisition believed was a reincarnation of the Emperor.

In The Brothers Karamazov by Fyodr Dostoevski there is a story called "The Grand Inquisitor". Here's a Wiki summation of the important part.


In the tale, Christ comes back to earth in Seville at the time of the Inquisition. Jesus performs a number of miracles (echoing miracles from the Gospels). The people recognize Him and adore Him, but He is arrested by Inquisition leaders and sentenced to be burned to death the next day. The Grand Inquisitor visits Him in His cell to tell Him that the Church no longer needs Him. The main portion of the text is the Inquisitor explaining to Jesus why His return would interfere with the mission of the church.

Of course, the Dostoevski story the Inquisitor lets Christ go, but the 40k universe isn't quite as pleasant.

Minister
17-08-2006, 01:20
Inquisitor Lord Torquemada Coteaz is also a reference to a historical Inquisitor, Tom&#225;s de Torquemada, "The hammer of heretics, the light of Spain, the saviour of his country, the honour of his order." However I suspect that the good chaps at GW were also influenced by the great Tomas de Torquemada, foe of Nemesis the Warlock and Grandmaster of Termight, from the pages of 2000 AD.

BodhiTree
17-08-2006, 02:29
As far as Captain Stern goes, anyone have a reference for him? (So far I can only see it as a basic reference for a Captain watching his back, literally the stern of the ship. That couldn't be it.)

scwolf
17-08-2006, 07:50
As far as Captain Stern goes, anyone have a reference for him? (So far I can only see it as a basic reference for a Captain watching his back, literally the stern of the ship. That couldn't be it.)

Wasn't there a Captain Stern in the original Heavy Metal animated movie?

Entirely a 180 from a straight laced Grey Knight though.

Mikko
17-08-2006, 07:57
Wasn't there a Captain Stern in the original Heavy Metal animated movie?

Entirely a 180 from a straight laced Grey Knight though.
Oh yeah. "Take it easy, Charlie. I've got an angle..." :D

Shibboleth
17-08-2006, 10:59
How about Lenin?
Worshipped as a god, then when he died his body was preserved for people to continue their worship.
That could be either the Emperor or Guilliman.

Sergeant Tanthius
17-08-2006, 11:30
Don't know if this has been raised, but watch the last 3 chapters of Aliens (second one), than take up the old Hive Tyrant model then compare the heads with the queen.

Sai-Lauren
17-08-2006, 12:12
Don't know if this has been raised, but watch the last 3 chapters of Aliens (second one), than take up the old Hive Tyrant model then compare the heads with the queen.

More like, look at the old metal hormaguants. How they got away with that one, I'll never know.

Shibboleth, that's an interesting one, although you could also have the Black Stone in Mecca and the hand of John The Baptist (ok, maybe a little more Rogal Dorn there) as additional parallels to that.
I'd say Guilliman though, rather than The Emperor.

Antaeus - that's a reference to Barlinnie prison isn't it?

Antaeus
17-08-2006, 13:04
Antaeus - that's a reference to Barlinnie prison isn't it?

Indeed. Thou shalt go far, Sai-Lauren. If ambition doesn't kill you first.

Skrittiblak
17-08-2006, 13:27
here was a really good one, remember sly marbo the "one man army" from the catachan codex?

switch the M and R around = Rambo
and as for sly? whats sylvestor stallones nickname? hmm.

not to mention all the anime overtones in the tau.

That was meant to be tongue in cheek, I am sure of it. Like the Necron "I'll be back" rule comes for Schwarzenegger's famous line in The Terminator.

GW wants you to catch things like that. They're like easter eggs in computer games.

ArtificerArmour
17-08-2006, 14:09
The kroot special character is also an anagram of ankh morpok from Discworld. No idea why though.

Latro_
17-08-2006, 14:19
a thread about where gw nicked their ideas and no one has mentioned the black templars holy antioch grenade...

First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it.

:p

jimbobodoll
17-08-2006, 14:37
Please please tell me there isnt a holy grenade of antioch in 40k?
Oh dear... That's almost Anistoff in its madness....

Sai-Lauren
17-08-2006, 14:48
a thread about where gw nicked their ideas and no one has mentioned the black templars holy antioch grenade...

Back on page 8 of this very thread


Although my most favourite reference in 40k will forever be the Black Templars' Holy Orb of Antioch.

One, Two, Five...;)

Minister
17-08-2006, 15:07
I'm still hacked off that the Marines got that instead of the Witch Hunters. I mean, honestly, who plays Space Marines? (*Sits back safe in the knowledge that the area has less Marines than either Guard, Tau or Witch Hunters*)

dean
17-08-2006, 16:20
One, Two, Five...;)

"That's Three sir"

Latro_
17-08-2006, 17:21
Back on page 8 of this very thread


One, Two, Five...;)


oops missed that

Mechanicus
17-08-2006, 17:21
The kroot special character is also an anagram of ankh morpok from Discworld. No idea why though

What, Anghkor Prok? Not quite, but very similar. I can't quite see how Ankh Morpork would relate to Anghkor Prok though, I mean Necrons are like the Terminator so I'll be back works, Sly Marbo and Rambo I can understand, but Anghkor Prok doesn't really seem to have any relation to it. Maybe it was unintentional...




One, Two, Five...;)

"That's Three sir"
"What? How dare you contradict a superior offic -"
*BANG!!!*

I can see that going down well with all concerned... :p

Zzarchov
17-08-2006, 18:01
40k isn't good because its original, its good BECAUSE its a pop-culture "were 10% different so were legal" rip-off.

Its a way to have your favourite pop-culture scifi stereotype battle another group of sci-fi stereotype.

When I saw my first game of 40k I didn't think "Oh look the unending maw of the tyranid hive fleet is fighting a doomed regiment of imperial guard, servants of the throne ridden corpse god, denziens of the most brutal regime imaginable"

I thought..Hey! "Aliens"TM are fighting Space Nazis!

thats what drew me in.

Gen.Steiner
17-08-2006, 18:37
Aliens (tm) fighting Space Nazis!

Siggin' dat. :D

tuebor
17-08-2006, 21:04
I'm still hacked off that the Marines got that instead of the Witch Hunters.

Not all Marines got that. Only one Chapter whose list is regarded as rather less than optimal. Out of the two Ordos books I would see Daemonhunters getting it before Witchhunters. The whole "knight" thing and all.

Mikko
18-08-2006, 07:03
40k isn't good because its original, its good BECAUSE its a pop-culture "were 10% different so were legal" rip-off.
That would work, if only GW acknowledged it. But nooo, they're all innovative and stuff, and must protect their all-original copyrights and trademarks with packs of rabid assault lawyers... :rolleyes:

Asentaja
18-08-2006, 07:37
That's humour, live with it. A bit same thing as the pissed -sounds in blizzard games.

ArtificerArmour
18-08-2006, 11:46
That would work, if only GW acknowledged it. But nooo, they're all innovative and stuff, and must protect their all-original copyrights and trademarks with packs of rabid assault lawyers... :rolleyes:

I really don't know where all this sueing malarkys come from, I've only heard them suing one company. I really don't think they're that bad.

Sai-Lauren
18-08-2006, 11:51
I really don't know where all this sueing malarkys come from, I've only heard them suing one company. I really don't think they're that bad.

There's been various threats against other companies and some on-line comics (Golden Throne springs to mind), that the affected parties have simply acquiesed to rather than try and fight.

Minister
18-08-2006, 12:13
Golden Throne was, primarily at least, a complaint over the bad language asociated with the webcomic in turn being asociated with their product, for which I can probably see the point.

Lab Monkey
18-08-2006, 12:19
There was an explorer in WHFB called Louisiana Smith or something...

Indiana Jones anyone?

I mean come on.. is it so hard to make up your own stuff?

Kordos
18-08-2006, 12:30
I'm pretty sure the zerg hydralisk came before the ravener
http://kellimus.tripod.com/3dhydralisk.htm

Skrittiblak
18-08-2006, 12:33
To be fair Zerg came after Tyranids in general and Ultralisk = Carnifex.

hermann morr
18-08-2006, 13:09
Zerg and Tyranids come both from the same source, like Space Marines and Colonial Marines, all Starship troopers stuff (the book, not the movie).

ArtificerArmour
18-08-2006, 13:14
There's been various threats against other companies and some on-line comics (Golden Throne springs to mind), that the affected parties have simply acquiesed to rather than try and fight.

I don't recall threats against company's, but against individuals whose websites are some how breaking IP.

Threats arn't legal action. And as mentioned these names are easter eggs that make you think"oh yeah, that's clever".

Would you prefer GW said on the box "This is sly marbo. He's like Rambo. Infact he is."

Warden
18-08-2006, 14:06
There was a company who made Titan esque models which where very close to Gws Gothic style titans, i think they got a call from GW.

And The Golden Throne was more about the comics content than Ip, Glue sniffing Staffers, foul language, personally attack Mr Haines etc.

StormCrow
19-08-2006, 13:18
I'm surprised this one hasn't been mentioned (or i missed it)...The ushabti make alive action guest appearance in 'The Mummy Returns'.

http://psp.yourpsp.com/media/disk/video/mummy_ret/mum_screen_05.jpg

And pretty much everything from 'Conan the Barbarian' made its way into WHFB at some point. I'm surprised Sigmar on his throne hasn't been mentioned yet either.

Shibboleth
19-08-2006, 17:44
I'm surprised Sigmar on his throne hasn't been mentioned yet either.
There was a Marneus Calgar version of that too. It's what inspired the current art of him in the Codex.
Edit: link: http://www.solegends.com/citrt/rt105lordmacragge.htm

ArtificerArmour
19-08-2006, 19:11
There was a Marneus Calgar version of that too. It's what inspired the current art of him in the Codex.
Edit: link: http://www.solegends.com/citrt/rt105lordmacragge.htm

It's also inspired me to make other art as well...

t-tauri
19-08-2006, 21:08
I'm pretty sure the zerg hydralisk came before the ravener
http://kellimus.tripod.com/3dhydralisk.htmThe game was I believe originally developed to use the GW IP. When they couldn't agree a fee then Blizzard made some subtle changes.

Most of the suing that I'm aware of was on companies producing slight variants on Marine and titans which was close enough to GW's IP to either convince a judge or the defendant's legal team/wallet enough for them to cave in.

gunhed
20-08-2006, 11:17
So has anyone read the latest Viz yet: The story "34 year old obsessive War Workshop assistant" in particular?

Warmallet, Warmallet 40,000, Krone Bezerkers, Landraiders and Plague Bearers (by name), Skagen Ogre Rats, Tyranid Gene Stealers and Chaos Lord(also by name). :eek:

Now there's a lawsuit just waiting to happen.