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LoerdofallJoy
16-08-2006, 12:29
I remember a while back (I think on Portent as I can't find using the search function) there was a huge debate regarding Emperor's Daemons. This aroused my interest at the time, but couldn't do anything about it due to lack of funds. However, I now feel the need for a new army & I think that this concept is one which could be done.

So, why is this in background? Well, I'm going to start on the basis that the nacient warp entity of the starchild exists (which of course is a debate in itself), and that as a warp entity it must 'feed' on emotions of some type. From my point of view (at the moment - I'm open to suggestion) the emotions would be those of self sacrifice/ piety and similar concepts (think the guardsman who-shall-not-be-named).

With that in mind my army would be based on the Wordbearers list from Codex Chaos, but using Sisters of Battle models (losts of daemons & the best models GW have produced IMO). The fluff background is sketchy at best at the moment as this is a concept and I'd like to see what people think of the idea. The reason I'm using Wordbearers rules is simply to represent the 'daemonic' aspect of the army, they are also over-zelous religeous nut-jobs - which is where the Sisters come in! At the moment I'm thinking of an Order near the EoT discovering & channeling the power of the Starchild.

Problem 1 - the list

The list would need to pick out bits of the Wordbearers list which can & can't be used, mostly to 'align' them more with sisters:
Not used - Greater daemons, daemonic stature, marks except undivided, possessed, obliterators, bikes, all the tanks, dreadnaughts & defilers
Leaves - All marine units, all deamons (except nurglings), raptors (= seraphim)

Does this sound reasonable (or even sensible?) I realise that I'm stripping out much of the 'fun stuff', but this isn't a tournament army, but I do play in-store so I'll need to base it on something. I could use the witchunters list & simply 'call' things like repentia daemons - but I want to show that this isn't just another sisters list. The other possible list looks like LatD - but that looks like going the way of the dodo & I intend to keep this army for a few years...

Problem 2 - the fluff

The main problem is moving sisters up to SM stats - the 'bodge' I've come up with is that they are imbued with the power and faith of the starchild - any help appreciated. The daemonic gifts can be renamed - I'm happy with that part, but what would the daemons be like? I can't see a 'bloodletter' clone being used that often - the starchild may not have the power to create such bloodthirsty & powerful daemons (do the type of souls afect the type of daemon, or do daemons not = whole souls, but are made of an amalgum of 'soul parts'?). Daemonettes, flamers & furies look to me to be the most likely candidates as daemons which could be 'Starchild-ified'. But again, all comments are welcome.

Problem 3 - the models

As stated, I want to use the sisters as space marines - keeping within the SoB wargear/ weaponry as much as possible. The daemons on the other hand are more interesting. I'm looking at cherubs for furies, repentias for daemonettes, but I'm stuck on the others (I like the arco-flagelent models maybe they could be good...)- any ideas? The 'lord' could either be a cannoness of some sort or an inquisitor - I'm not sure which I prefer yet...

Well, this post's much longer than I anticipated, but any suggestions/ comments/ critisim is appreciated on any aspect of the army/ fluff/ modelling.

Cheers,
LoaJ

Kage2020
16-08-2006, 13:20
I remember a while back (I think on Portent as I can't find using the search function) there was a huge debate regarding Emperor's Daemons.
The Emperor's Daemons were Brusilov's rather interesting fossilisation into fan 'fluff' of an established idea on the 40k boards, i.e. that the Star Child or Emperor as nascent warp entities might be able to generate their own avatars/daemons. I've seen Brussie hanging around online every now and again, but if you're after the text then you can always pop him an email (that being more effective than a PM, at least in my estimation). I'm sure that you can find the "Ask the Commissar" thread and get Brusilov's profile and, therefore, email address from that. If he still has the text then, as the helpful chappie that he is, I'm sure that he'll send it over your way (more so if you suggest that you wish to publish it under his name on Warseer).


So, why is this in background?
Because it belongs here? (Ah, just subsequently read that you were interested in producing an army... My bad.)


Well, I'm going to start on the basis that the nacient warp entity of the starchild exists (which of course is a debate in itself), and that as a warp entity it must 'feed' on emotions of some type.
I don't think that it's much of a stretch for the Starchild to exist, though what is more problematic is the link between the Star Child and any focus of worship or "emotion". One can equally argue that while the Star Child exists (soul of the Emperor) and awaits rebirth into another "New Man" (note: not necessarily a warp entity but perhaps a physical messiah!) and what is nascent in the warp as a "Warp Power" would rather be a variation of the God-Emperor. Yes, these can be distinct.


From my point of view (at the moment - I'm open to suggestion) the emotions would be those of self sacrifice/ piety and similar concepts (think the guardsman who-shall-not-be-named).
These are common interpretations of an emotional focus for such an entity, ultimately placing the Emperor as "good" to Chaos' "evil". (This would be in keeping with Brussie's interpretation, since he liked to place a Moorcockian approach to Law and Chaos into the 40k universe.)


Not used - Greater daemons, daemonic stature, marks except undivided, possessed, obliterators, bikes, all the tanks, dreadnaughts & defilers
Leaves - All marine units, all deamons (except nurglings), raptors (= seraphim)
Why allow daemons to be available, but not greater daemons? Might not one think of Daemons as Seraphim, the first amongst the creations of an entity?

You might also want to check out the Sensei Champions Warband list from Realms of Chaos: Lost and the Damned. That should provide plenty of information upon what you might include in an "Emperor's Daemons" army, up to and including the Sensei themselves! ;)


The main problem is moving sisters up to SM stats - the 'bodge' I've come up with is that they are imbued with the power and faith of the starchild - any help appreciated.
I'm afraid that this does sound like a complete bodge and, as such, I would avoid it. Move with the 'fluff' of the army rather than a tactical requirement, i.e. you need a bad ass trooper. If you want a 'fluff' justification than go with the Sensei once again. Even though I'm not overtly fond of the 'fluff' the Sensei were described as being "genetically similar" (or somesuch) to the Marines since they were the awakened "biological descendents" of the Emperor. Thus they are your Marine-equivalents. (Again, though, I find the implication that the Emperor was physically similar to a Marine to be rather munchkin or, at least, lame.) Again, though, it is a 'fluff' justification for using Sensei in a similar role, more so when you couple it with the old idea of "heroes" and therefore Sensei Champions of the Star Child.


The daemonic gifts can be renamed...
Indeed, they're called "Gifts of the Star Child". They are, however, a product of "positive warp energy" (again, the 'fluff' is dubious but it is still there) and as such they normally involved healing, self-modification, etc. Nasty tactically useful abilities that damage the enemy were not very common. Again, see Realms of Chaos: The Lost and the Damned for more information.


I'm happy with that part, but what would the daemons be like?
Little information can be found on this. What can be inferred from the 'fluff', if you believe that they are manifestations of the Star Child, tend to imply that they take on the somewhat traditional angelic manifestation. (Although they can also appear as normal people, assuming that is a full physical manifestation rather than an act of possession.)


...do the type of souls afect the type of daemon, or do daemons not = whole souls, but are made of an amalgum of 'soul parts'?).
Daemons were originally considered to be fragments of the power of the warp entity that created them, hence the suggestion above that you think of the whole greater/lesser etc. nomenclature as less 'power' and more 'hierarchy'.

On the other hand, if you're talking about using this as a lesser-powered "Greater Daemon", then you can always look to the Avatar of Khaine (Eldar) as inspiration. Perhaps even the original, random rules.

Kage

Dspankdo
16-08-2006, 13:31
If your after inspiration for fluff and conversions then i suggest typing in "Arch Angel Gabriel" into google images.I always wanted to convert the nightbringer into an imperial angel.

Icarus
16-08-2006, 18:38
Sounds like a fun idea for an army. I agree that using SM stats would probably be a bad idea for Sisters of Battle, thats kind of a difficult one...

Fluffwise I hope I can be of more help. If you haven't already I think its worth getting a look at the fluff in the Witch Hunters Codex, as in there I think there are a few things that hint at the state of the Emperor and also hints at warp entities connected to him. The fluff on St Celestine in particular is interesting, as it references a suit of armour and a blade that were wielded by St Katherine, and then later by St Celestine, who seemed to become more powerful and divine as a result of wearing the equipment. I made a thread a while back relating to the theory that if chaos can use daemon-possessed weapons, then the blade of St Celestine may have been possessed or somehow linked to a "good" warp-entity in service of the Emperor.

In older fluff, although I can't find any references right now annoyingly, there are mentions of angelic beings appearing over Imperial Forces on the battlefield (presumably inspired by accounts of angels said to have been seen over WW1 battlefields). These could well be seen as evidence of the Starchild and warp-entities in his service.

nurgleman
16-08-2006, 19:13
I suggest you read the Inquisitor's war if you haven't yet. It gives you the feeling of what the star child is like.

Kage2020
17-08-2006, 14:44
And, well, the Realms of Chaos: Lost and the Damned! ;) I'm sure that you can find the text out there - somewhere - even if you don't have the book yourself. 40k'ers are a friendly bunch that try and help out where they can, even though I'm sure that no-one would break copyright law in doing so. :D

Kage

Commander Ozae
17-08-2006, 19:19
In the Pangolen Saloon there is a section on the Inquisitor narrative wargame on angels of the Emperor which was an idea to give puritan inquisitors acess to weapons like the radical daemon weapons. These are basically holy people who died and whose souls transform in the Warp into a "daemon" creature except for good.

Kage2020
17-08-2006, 19:40
Care to provide the link to that, Commander Ozae? While you can Google the "Pangolin Saloon" fan-site with relative ease, there's quite a bit of information on there that is not necessarily easy to find...

Oh, and of course it is "fan 'fluff'". While that doesn't make it bad, I was just pointing out the obvious so that people don't go taking it as canon! ;)

Kage

Zzarchov
17-08-2006, 19:48
Might I suggest keeping the only Daemons as Furies, and perhaps making them angels?

antar000
17-08-2006, 23:34
if you really want to make angels, make them look as described in biblical sources.
Brass and topaz bodies, eyes like torches, and at least 6 wings.
I know Metatron, chief of the archangels and dominant over the seven angels of Prayer, appeared as a pillar of fire and smoke before being gifted with a form with 36 pairs of wings and innumerable eyes.
The cherubim looked not like little babies, but like...bulls with eagle wings and a head with 4 faces, one of a man, one of a bull, one of a hawk, and one of a snake.
The Ofanim, who carried the Sapphire firmament upon which the Golden Throne of God rested, were wheels of fire.
If you make the angels look like the biblical and apocryphal sources describe, I think they'd look more like 'dæmons' than just your stereotypical two-winged angels (which were drawn with 2 wings because 6 or more was too difficult.).
Making them some frightening shining monster with a flaming sword and blue under their feet would, well, be a very evocative look, I'd say.

Commander Ozae
18-08-2006, 04:17
http://www.bi-test2.com/mirusproject/Home/PSangelic.cfm

There you go Kage, sorry about not posting it earlier. It contains rules for their powers as well as some background fluff on the idea of the angel. Look around the rest of the site, there's some really good stuff.

Kage2020
18-08-2006, 12:36
Thanks for the link, but most definitely not my cup of tea...

Kage

Khaine's Messenger
21-08-2006, 05:18
Does this sound reasonable (or even sensible?)

In my personal estimation? No. A list involving the Emperor's Daemons like a Chaos list shouldn't exist, for the simple reason that the Emperor's Daemons are exceptional entities--in Brusilov's original background, iirc, there were far and away only a few of them, and the vast majority were non-interventionists. Those that do intervene manifest through the Living Saints and odd events like those in the Gaunts Ghosts series and Execution Hour. Simply put, if you want to field a list using the notion of the Emperor's daemons, build a list around St. Celestine's rules (or perhaps Karamazov or some other Inquisitorial character) and be done with it..that's about as direct as they get, and operating within the known rules and game abstractions to boot. Otherwise, it's minor guardian angels patiently guiding humanity in a universe that's otherwise gone mad (go ahead and pay those points for the "re-roll" mechanic).

The good guys, as you can tell, have something of a "light" touch.

The closest thing to a divine host you're going to get, imho, is the Legion of the Damned or the more "mundane" Legios Angelica Mortis (in either case, the Space Marine codex will suffice) or Grey Knights (or, gag-me, Custodes). Either that, or an IG/SM/=][=/etc. list with a few flippity-flopped ideas about what's what (maybe with a few extra rules from the adversaries lists from DH/WH).

If you're dead-set on building a Word Bearers list, though, I'd suggest building it just as anyone in the Imperium would expect it...the legion of martyrs that have laid down their lives for that ideal. It could certainly make for a very eclectic list if your bitzbox is deep. Although it might be too reminiscent of the Army of the Dead from LotR....

Inq. Veltane
21-08-2006, 11:43
I'm also with those who say that the best way to do this would be to base it off the WH list. How to legally include a couple of the Emperor's Daemons is difficult but you should remember that the EDs principly guide and imbue rather than physically manifesting and taking to battle in the same way that Chaos daemons do. The Emperor's Daemons certainly exist (in my opinion) but they don't manifest very often. Having more than one unit and one HQ choice in an army would bring every Thorian in the galaxy to the scene of the battle. If it happened regularly then expect even sterner investigation, probably from the Ordo Malleus. Most Inquisitors would believe that such occurances proved that there was a taint of Tzeentch in the Sisters.

I do really like the idea of the 'biblical' conversions suggested above. I'd suggest that such a manifestation should have power between that of a Greater Daemon and a C'Tan and would definately not feature every game. Make it a special character and give it the option of a retinue. It would make an awesome centrepiece for the army fluffwise even if you only used it in large games.

You should probably have the army consisting principly of Sisters of Battle (I'd consider giving the Daemon a special rule that gives more faith (Maybe a rule similar to Celestine's?) and also one that allows nearby units to reroll failed AoFs). I'd add some Guardsmen (suitably converted) as well and remember there should be at least one (Thorian) Inquisitor around. Beyond that its your choice but I'd avoid Officio Assassins and consider including a Priest (with 'Arbites' bodyguard) and some of the other ecclesiarchy units. I'm love the mental image of the Angel though, if you have the talent to pull it off. I know I'd mess it up.

Inq. Veltane
21-08-2006, 12:08
Ok, I've been thinking and this is what I'd personally have as the Archangel. She is based upon a Chaos Daemon Prince (Statured, Flight, Armour) but with some WH additions (Blessed Weapon, Heavy Flamer, Rosarius, Faithful). She comes out as follows:

Profile: 6 3 5 (7) 5 3 5 3 10 2+ (4+ I)

Special Rules...

Monstrous Creature, Wings (Daemonic Flight), Angelic Aura (Daemonic Visage, 4+ Invulnerable Save)

Firery Breath (Counts as a Heavy Flamer)

Faithful: Gives 4 Faith points. If slain the army loses D6 faith points. All units within 12" may reroll failed Acts of Faith tests.

Cost? Around 200 points... (115 (Base Prince) + 25 (Invulnerable Save) + 15 (Heavy Flamer) + 20 (Blessed Weapon, reduced in cost slightly as already ignores saves) + 20 (Faithful rules)) It may need to be modified upwards, in fact I'm thinking I'd start at 215. It is suitably nasty, I'd also allow it to have a retinue of upto ten Furies which don't suffer from the Summoning or Instability rules. I'd also consider giving the whole unit a 'Always in Reserve, Always Deepstrikes' rule similar to that which the Callidus has but that may be a little too powerful.