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BullBuchanan
30-03-2005, 06:20
2 weeks in a row now I have been annihilated by Tomb kings(same person). Last week a had a bit better luck when I managed to kill his heirophant on turn 2, but not much. Most of his army is composed of high leadership units so the only things it really affected were his Bone giant and catapault. It seems like nothing can stop him. Ill do as good of a job as I can to lay out his main list, but I dont have it in entirety. The following is my list.

15 Warriors @ 185 Pts
Great Weapon; Heavy Armour; Full Command;

10 Thunderers @ 150 Pts
Dwarf Handgun; Light Armour; Shield

10 Dwarf Crossbows @ 130 Pts
Crossbow; Light Armour; Shield

10 Miners @ 120 Pts
Great Weapon; Heavy Armour

10 Iron Breakers @ 130 Pts
Gromril Armour; Shield

1 Thane @ 115 Pts
Gromril Armour; Shield
Runic Weapon [50]
Rune of Cleaving
Rune of Fury
Rune of Speed

1 Runesmith @ 153 Pts
Gromril Armour
Runic Talisman [50]
Master Rune of Spellbinding
Runic Armour [25]
Master Rune of Gromril

1 Gyrocopter @ 140 Pts

1 Crew @ [0] Pts

1 Stone Thrower @ 110 Pts
Engineering Runes [25]
Rune of Accuracy

3 Crew @ [0] Pts
Light Armour

1 Stone Thrower @ 110 Pts
Engineering Runes [25]
Rune of Penetrating

3 Crew @ [0] Pts
Light Armour

1 Thorek Ironbrow @ 505 Pts
General
#Anvil of Doom [0]
#Rune of Air [0]
#Rune of Water [0]
#Rune of Fire [0]
#Rune of Earth [0]
#Klad Brakak [0]
#Thorek's Rune Armor [0]
#Rune of Doom [0]

2 Dwarf Guards @ [0] Pts

1 Kraggi @ [0] Pts
Light Armour

1 Runesmith @ 155 Pts
Gromril Armour; Shield
Runic Talisman [75]
Master Rune of Balance
Rune of Spellbreaking

Dispel Pool: 8

Casting Pool: 3

Models in Army: 72


Total Army Cost: 1993

he usually fields something around the following.

1 Heirophant

1 Tomb King

1 Battle standard bearer

1 Tomb Prince

2 units of 3 chariots each

1 Bone Giant

1 Catapault

2 scorpions(It came from below)

5 swarms(it came from below)

3 ubshatei (correct spelling?)

Now as if I didnt have enough problems with all of his units causing fear, stronger HtH units, immunity to pyscology, 3 times the speed no breaking from combat, and him rising units like swarm (25 wounds, 25 attacks) engaging in melee with my anvil. It seems like I cant get a dice roll to save my life.(I know its everybody's story ;) ) But seriously if i move out onto the field I get flanked, and if I hold back I either A) flee due to failed fear test,B) get destryoed by chariot impact hits or Bone giant attacks, or C) Eventually lose combat(all of his units have tons of wounds and are hard to wound, and break.

Ive come to the conclusion that the only prayer i have is to be dead on with my stone thrower guesses and have great rolls for them and my gunners and crossbowmen. I'm starting to get very frustrated though, but i do realize some thing sthat need to change.

I need to scrap the Gyro. Against undead a single S3 hit doesnt do much.

The miners need to go as well. His Came from below units are essentially them same but are not bound to just table edges, they can come up anywhere so long as he indicates where after deployment. Also by the time they actually appear there's no viable targets.

Some people love to hate the anvil, but to tell you the truth, its the only thing holding my army together, it keeps enough pressure on my opponent that he actually has to think about what he's doing, otherwise I could seriously mess him up, and sometimes i get lucky and a powerful rune goes off, killing a character. But unfortunately he usually throws the swarm or the tomb king at it, either killing everyone or at least preventing any runes from being cast.

My characters along with my anvil also do exceptionally well, but when on their own they usually lose combat(outnumbered,standard etc) so its just a matter of time before they break, and with a unit they end up getting flanked and breaking.

I understand this post is extremely long winded, but to tell you the truth, i dont know if I can stomach playing wednesday night and getting walked all over again.

I greatly appreciate any assistance offered.

Thanks,

-Bull Buchanan

BullBuchanan
30-03-2005, 07:46
I think I could stand a better chance at 3000 points. Id prolly use the existing list minus the Gyro,miners and warriors, and add 20 hammerers, Grombrindal the white dwarf, and either 20 longbeards or another 10 ironbreakers.

But as it stands I only have grombrindal right now, and after purchasing my other armies, I'm tapped out for a while.

N'bel
30-03-2005, 15:56
If you want some really good advice/help head over too Bugmans. There are tons of great dwarf generals over there who be more then willing too lend you a hand.

anarchistica
30-03-2005, 18:58
First of all, though you did clean up your list a tiny bit, it's still very messy. I've cleaned it up below. Please do read about this here (http://www.portent.net/forums/showthread.php?t=76).

Secondly, i will now be very harsh. If you don't like being walked over, i fear i will have to be very honest here. :D

Now, for your list:
_ _ _ _ _

1 Thorek Ironbrow, General; 505 points.

1 Runesmith, Gromril Armour, Shield, Rune of Spellbreaking, Rune of Balance; 155 points.

1 Runesmith, Gromril Armour, Rune of Spellbinding, Master Rune of Gromril; 153 points.

1 Thane, Gromril Armour, Shield, Runic Weapon (Cleaving, Fury, Speed)[/i;] 115 points.

15 Warriors, Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Full Command; 185 points

10 Thunderers, Shield; 150 points.

10 Dwarf Crossbows, Shield; 130 points.

10 Miners; 120 points.

10 Iron Breakers; 130 points.

1 Stone Thrower, [i]Rune of Accuracy; 110 points.

1 Stone Thrower, Rune of Penetrating; 110 points.

1 Gyrocopter; 140 points.

Dispel Pool: 8

Casting Pool: 3

Models in Army: 72

Total Army Cost: 1993
_ _ _ _ _

You've made many 'mistakes' that are very obvious to people who've played more than a couple of games. A list: 45% of your points went into characters. For some armies (Vampire Counts for instance), this is ok, for Dwarves, this is not. Vampire Counts heavily rely on characters, Dwarves on units. You should reduce this to 15-25% of your army total, i.e. 300-500 points. The 500 is way too much too in my opinion, but you like the Anvil so you should. I think you would do quite fine with 2-3 Runeguys and no other characters. I don't know how much your opponent exactly invests in magic, but to be safe take a Runelord and 2 Runesmiths. Thanes are nice, but a Runesmith hits almost as hard and gives you a Dispel Die to boot. The Thane can go and pretend to be a Dwarf Warrior champion or something.
You use a Special Character. Don't. If you have to use a Special Character, take a cheap one. A single character that takes up 1/4th of your army really doesn't help in a Dwarf army, and in other armies few characters can actually justify taking up so many points (Tzeentch Lord on Dragon). Remove Thorek Ironbrow. Simply replace him with a normal Runelord with Anvil. This saves you 100-150 points. You can use the same model.
The Rune of Spellbinding is ok, but personally i think you are better off with 2 Spellbreaker Runes instead.
The benefit of the Rune of Gromril is that it works for any armour, even light armour. This saves you 6 points for a Runesmith and 9 for a Runelord. Gromril Armour on it's own is fine too, and you can give them a shield for that 2+ save in case they get charged by something very nasty.
Nearly all weapon runes are redundant. The Master Rune of Swiftness, Rune of Might, Rune of Cleaving and Rune of Fury can be good against some enemies, but usually a great weapon does the trick better and cheaper.
Warriors. First of all, the unit size is too small. Warriors are dead cheap and dead good. Take 20 for a fighting unit at least, 25 is better, 30 can be too much but it might prevent you being Outnumbered. If your Fear-causing enemy doesn't Outnumber you, he won't automatically break you if you lose the combat. This is very, very important. Secondly, Great Weapons aren't the ideal weapons for a Warrior combat unit. You will usually see people use 10 Warriors with Great Weapons ranked up 2*5 guarding the flank of another Dwarf unit which is the main combat unit. Yes, +2S is nice, but against Chariots and other fast enemies (and just about anything), shields are far better. With shields and heavy armour, they have a 3+ save in close combat. For a measily 9 points each, you get a bunch of WS4, T4, Ld9, 3+ save Dwarves. Dwarf Warriors are often seen as one of the best units in the game because of this.
Dwarf Crossbows usually have no use for shields, they're not intended to get into combat. Against all these Coming From Below critters, they might have a use for them. However, no one uses Dwarf Crossbows since Thunderers are way better. Thunderers can move-and-fire and get +1 to hit at short range. However, i assume you have the models for these or just like the unit, so you can keep them. Decide whether to take shields or not for yourself, but remember that every point spared counts.
Miners are a good unit, but not very useful against this list. Your Gyrocopter should be able to deal with the Skull Catapult, or otherwise your warmachines can. If both fail, you're doing something wrong.
Ironbreakers. Good unit. WS5, S4 and of course the 2+ save in close combat. They are extremely hard to kill. However, the unit is way undersized. At the very least, get 12 so you will have 2 ranks. If you want them to be useful, get 20-25. Again, more is better, to prevent being Outnumbered and also to prevent the unit from being piecemeal after it's suffer a couple of casualties. Plus, you must have Full Command on them. Those 30 points go a very long way to help the unit.
Stone Throwers are neat, but fairly useless unless your enemy has some nicely sized units to shoot at. Your opponent doesn't so remove them. Also, the Rune of Penetrating doesn't really help alot.
The Gyrocopter. Ah, the Gyrocopter. Arguably one of the best Dwarf units. You stop argueing when you shut down your enemy's magic phase and he only has a Skull Thrower that can shoot. The Copter can easily fry the Skull Catapult crew, and then he can be very, very annoying. You can stop units from marching and make him think twice about letting his Hierophant walk on his own. Sure, the Steam Gun is only S3 AP, but his Hierophant (Liche Priest you mean) is only T3, W2...With the points you save on the characters and Stone Throwers, you can increase the size of your Warrior and Ironbreaker units. A second Warrior unit would be a good idea too. Twelve with Heavy Armour and Great Weapons can guard your warmachines or help your combat units. Perhaps even get some Slayers. They never break and their Strength bonus really is hard on those Ushabti (that's how you spell it), Giant and Chariots. He doesn't have alot of ranged attacks so they might perform very well.

For ranged power, get a Cannon and 2 Bolt Throwers. The Cannon gets the Rune of Burning, the Bolt Throwers both get the Rune of Penetrating and Rune of Burning. To make this legal, one of them also gets the Master Rune of Skewering. You now have 3 warmachines with S7+ and Flaming Attacks. A wound caused by a S7 attack will destroy a chariot regardless of the amount of Wounds it has. Even better, if your Cannon gets a shot at the flank of a Chariot unit, the Cannonball can bounce through all of them, obliterating the entire unit. The Flaming Attacks are fun too, since his King and Prince are Flammable (suffer double wounds from Flaming Attacks). This means that any unsaved wound from them will kill the Prince, and you have a 66% chance to kill the King if you get past his saves. Ouch.

If you take my advise, and keep the Crossbows and Anvil (i gave the Runelord the Rune of Warding to help keep it alive), your list could look something like this:

Runelord, General, Anvil of Doom, Gromril Armour, Shield, Rune of Stone, Rune of Warding; 380 points.

Runesmith, Gromril Armour, Shield, Great Weapon, Rune of Spellbreaking*2; 134 points.

Runesmith, Gromril Armour, Shield, Great Weapon, Rune of Balance; 134 points.

25 Warriors, Heavy Armour, Shield, Full Command; 250 points

12 Warriors, Heavy Armour, Great Weapon; 120 points

10 Thunderers, Shield; 150 points.

10 Dwarf Crossbows; 120 points.

20 Iron Breakers, Full Command; 290 points.

Bolt Thrower, Rune of Burning, Rune of Penetrating, Master Rune of Skewering; 100 points.

Bolt Thrower, Rune of Burning, Rune of Penetrating; 75 points.

Dwarf Cannon, Rune of Burning; 105 points.

1 Gyrocopter; 140 points.

Dispel Pool: 8

Casting Pool: 2

Models in Army: 96

Total Points: 1998
_ _ _ _ _

Your shooting will be far more effective, your units are much harder to break with all those ranks and numbers (and the possible aid of the Runesmiths) and you have more models too.

Hmm, i did get kinda carried away there. :o

Readamus
30-03-2005, 20:29
Yea, that last post pretty much says it all. You will always get walked over if your biggest unit isn't even 20 models strong, regardless of who you face.

BullBuchanan
31-03-2005, 04:09
Well a few thingss. First off, the ironbreakers only get a 3+, which doesnt sound like a big difference, but out of 6 S4 attacks Ill prolly only save 2 or 3. IMO they haven't been very effective.

I'm also forced to take shield and armor with my ranged units, because against a speed Undead,Bretonnians,Lizardmen and Ogre Kingdoms (The army's I typically face) They WILL get into combat, no ifs or buts about it. With the added protection maybe they can survive the charge and then maybe deal a wound or two and force a unit to flee on a failed CR test. I once killed two untis of Ogre Bulls with my thunderers in HtH because I won the combat. I'm not sure if that would have been possible had I not had any armor save.

I recently added the crossbowmen, because I get an extra round of shooting with them. The thunders max range is 24, where as the crossbowmen is 30. The big difference here is that I can usually shoot with my crossbowmen on turn two, where i usually have to wait until at least 3 for my thunderers to get into long range. By that point at a 5 up to hit they arnt much good anyway.

I realize I have too many heroes, I hate it, but it's a necesarry evil. Ideally I'd love to take only 1 runesmith and a special character, but I just cant afford to. Against heavy magic armies(Tomb Kings), the 7 dispell dice plus dis scrolls, spelleater runes, and the +1 to all dispell attempts are barely enough to keep me from getting charged on turn two, or having anything I ever killed be revived.

Today I recently employed a different strategy. Using the list below I was able to shut out my opponents magic for the first two turns, destroy his Alter with my stone throwers, and lay pretty hard into his chariots.

1 Grombrindal The White Dwarf; Rune Axe of Grimnir,Rune Cloak of Valaya,Armour of Glimril Scales,Rune Crown of Zhufbar @ 526 Pts
General (hidden in warriors unit)

1 Runesmith; Great Weapon; Gromril Armour; Shield;Master Rune of Spellbinding,Rune of Spellbreaking @ 159 Pts

1 Runesmith; Great Weapon; Gromril Armour; Shield;Rune of Luck,Spelleater Rune @ 159 Pts

1 Runesmith; Gromril Armour; Shield;Master Rune of Breaking, Rune of Luck @ 155 Pts

21 Warriors; Great Weapon; Heavy Armour;Full Command @ 225 Pts

10 Thunderers; Dwarf Handgun; Light Armour; Shield @ 150 Pts

10 Dwarf Crossbows; Crossbow; Light Armour; Shield @ 130 Pts

10 Iron Breakers;Gromril Armour; Shield @ 130 Pts

1 Gyrocopter @ 140 Pts

1 Stone Thrower;Rune of Accuracy @ 110 Pts

1 Stone Thrower;Rune of Burning @ 90 Pts

Dispel Pool: 7

Casting Pool: 2

Models in Army: 64


Total Army Cost: 1974

Now say what you will about taking a special character, but I believe Grombrindal won the day for me. I made it My decision to deploy him hidden in my weakest unit(warriors) after his Ushabti charged my warriors I revealed him, and tokk them to town. Now his Ushabti managed to kill an average of 5 warriors per combat, so the only one getting attacks back was Grombrindal. WS7,S6,W4,A4,re-rolls on attacks and wounds, plus unbreakable has its advantages. Witnessing this firsthand I have to go ahead and disagree that dwarf warriors are under-rated, in fact I'll go one more to say that they are underpowered. Had grombrindal not been there, a unit costing 60 points less than them would have annihilated them in 1-2 turns. The Other major advantage to Grombrindal is that I could use a tactic of fleeing as a charge reaction(something I've never done), and then charging him with a unit of my choosing. His crown allows an automatic rally of any unit within 12 inches, and since i depolyed all my units fairly clos together, this worked out very well. On a side note, there is a glitch in army builder that has grombrindal cost two hero slots and 1 lord slot instead of just 1 lord one hero.

My runesmiths did their job. Most of their abilities were used up by the end of round two, but by that time i had signifigantly reduced my enemy's magic to the point where they were no longer needed. Lot of points though.

when my opponent choose the location for his tomb swarms, I put my ironbreakers on the exact spot. I thought it was a perfect idea, being as they would probably kill the swarms eventually, but more importantly they would allow everything else to function as normal without his swarms interrupting my game plan. I was perfectly set on the idea of sacrificing my iron breakers for this purpose. Luckily however my opponent miscast when scattering them and the unit was destroyed. Would have played it the same way however if givin the opportunity.

My thunderers and crossbows did a ood job of keeping my opponents honest, forcing him to be aware of the threat they posed. However the 5 to hit, 4 to wound in most of the cases didnt prove to be overly valuable. However these guys have proved their worth time and time again that today I let them rest on their laurels.

My gyrocopter did a very good job of harrasing his heirophant, although i believe my opponet was much more scared of this issue than he probably should have been. the most my gyro can do is a single S3 hit with its steam cannon, so to be honest it isnt much good against tomb kings, except for killing skeleton warriors and tomb guard. TK don't march so there isnt much benefit there either. If I had more dwarf units, this one would probably be replaced against these lists.

Stone throwers were the unsong heroes of the day. overshadowed by grombrindal, but not unnoticed, they were crucial to the outcome of the game. On turn one i hit my opponets alter with a stone thrower containing the rune of burning. Direct range and direct hit. 6 total wounds, at strength 8 annihilating it. thats 500 points gone :cool: . My other Stonethrower meanwhile destroyed two chariots. Not bad for one round of shooting. The next few turns they spent harrassing my opponets heirophant and blowing up his ranks of tomb guard and skeleton warriors. for 200 points I couldnt ask for any more.

Another long winded post from me, but I felt it was worth mentioning how everything performed today. While my opponent did conced on turn 4, left with only about 500 points he did field a different army list based much different and weaker list.

2 units of skeleton warriors

1 unit of tomb guard

1 unit of ushabti

2 units of chariots

1 scorpion

1 tomb swarm unit

1 heirophant

and one Casket of souls

It was very easy for me to defeat this army, while it was still as or more powerful in HtH it was MUCH slower and I killed him with ranged attacks. But hey I'm not gonna complain because I havn't won in three weeks, so I dont feel to bad about it. :)

anarchistica
01-04-2005, 17:34
Well a few thingss. First off, the ironbreakers only get a 3+, which doesnt sound like a big difference, but out of 6 S4 attacks Ill prolly only save 2 or 3. IMO they haven't been very effective.
Nonono, look on page 88 of the rulebook, under fighting with a hand weapon and a shield. In close combat, you get +1 armour save when fighting with these, which means that, in close combat, Ironbreakers get a 2+ save (gromril armour 4+, shield +1, parry +1 = 2+) and Warriors with shield and hand weapon a 3+.

This also means that effectively your save is doubled against S6 attacks (5+ instead of 6+).


I'm also forced to take shield and armor with my ranged units, because against a speed Undead,Bretonnians,Lizardmen and Ogre Kingdoms (The army's I typically face) They WILL get into combat, no ifs or buts about it. With the added protection maybe they can survive the charge and then maybe deal a wound or two and force a unit to flee on a failed CR test. I once killed two untis of Ogre Bulls with my thunderers in HtH because I won the combat. I'm not sure if that would have been possible had I not had any armor save.
Well as i said, it really depends on how you play. I usually take shields on my Dark Elf Crossbowmen too (who funnily enough have the best armour save of all DE infantry...).


I recently added the crossbowmen, because I get an extra round of shooting with them. The thunders max range is 24, where as the crossbowmen is 30. The big difference here is that I can usually shoot with my crossbowmen on turn two, where i usually have to wait until at least 3 for my thunderers to get into long range. By that point at a 5 up to hit they arnt much good anyway.
Well i'm not sure how you deploy but usually you're 24" apart and you can shoot from the first turn with Crossbowmen and on the first or second with Handgunners (also because they can move and shoot).


Now say what you will about taking a special character, but I believe Grombrindal won the day for me.
For many people, that is the problem. Relying on a special character isn't a good show of tactical capability (it can be fun to have them though, and that's far more important). ;) :p


The Other major advantage to Grombrindal is that I could use a tactic of fleeing as a charge reaction(something I've never done), and then charging him with a unit of my choosing. His crown allows an automatic rally of any unit within 12 inches, and since i depolyed all my units fairly clos together, this worked out very well.
Well that's not an advantage granted by him really. Every Dwarf has Ld9 or higher, and with a Lord within 12" or a musician in the unit (+1 Ld on rally rolls), you will usually easily pass your rally-test...


On a side note, there is a glitch in army builder that has grombrindal cost two hero slots and 1 lord slot instead of just 1 lord one hero.
AB 2 or AB3? In AB 2 it's correct: "Takes up a Lord and a Hero choice".


My runesmiths did their job. Most of their abilities were used up by the end of round two, but by that time i had signifigantly reduced my enemy's magic to the point where they were no longer needed. Lot of points though.
Lots of points? You might wanna try taking just 2 Runesmiths. One with the Rune of Balance, the other with 2 Runes of Spellbreaking. This will effectively give you +4 Dispel Dice (the Rune of Balance effectively gives you +2 DD) and you can stop two spells you really need to stop. Most Dwarf players i know use them like that, but it really depends on who you play against of course.


My gyrocopter did a very good job of harrasing his heirophant, although i believe my opponet was much more scared of this issue than he probably should have been. the most my gyro can do is a single S3 hit with its steam cannon, so to be honest it isnt much good against tomb kings, except for killing skeleton warriors and tomb guard. TK don't march so there isnt much benefit there either. If I had more dwarf units, this one would probably be replaced against these lists.
Well 2 single hits of that Steam Cannon can kill the Hierophant if you're lucky, that's scary enough for most people (whether or not something is scary doesn't matter, as long as your opponents thinks so it's fine ;)). And because he uses a template, you can easily whipe out (part of) the crew of a Skull Catapult in one go. And indeed, i confused TK with VC in my mind, VC can march if within 12" of the General.


Stone throwers were the unsong heroes of the day. overshadowed by grombrindal, but not unnoticed, they were crucial to the outcome of the game. The next few turns they spent harrassing my opponets heirophant and blowing up his ranks of tomb guard and skeleton warriors. for 200 points I couldnt ask for any more.
Yup, as i said, much more effective against big units.

And if you thought you had an easy win, try going for the Steam Roller army variant. An entire army with non-shooting Dwarf infantry except for 2 Gyrocopters (and no special characters). If you can win with that, you can win with anything really. ;)

BullBuchanan
01-04-2005, 18:22
Nonono, look on page 88 of the rulebook, under fighting with a hand weapon and a shield. In close combat, you get +1 armour save when fighting with these, which means that, in close combat, Ironbreakers get a 2+ save (gromril armour 4+, shield +1, parry +1 = 2+) and Warriors with shield and hand weapon a 3+. oops, thats my bad. AB doesnt display that, and shows it as a 3+, and I don't know the rules completely yet, so I'll have to make sure I bring that up next time.


For many people, that is the problem. Relying on a special character isn't a good show of tactical capability (it can be fun to have them though, and that's far more important)
Well unfortunatly, I'm one of the people out there that think Dwarves are broken. Dwarves are suppossed to be masters in battles of attrition, and while they boast the highest leadership in the game, it still really isnt that big of a deal.(they still fail 25% of the time), and while they have base S4 and T4, any heavy hitting army will crack that no problem.And no one in the dwarf army causes fear, or is immune to it, hardly something id expect out of warriors so proud, who have seen the most horrible things, and faced the most wretched creatures of probably any army. There are unbreakable units Like slayers, but they don't have the luxury of armor, so you can't really say that they make up for it. Now there is a point to all this complaining ;) Now unfortunatly due to this if you do not have an awesome selection of long ranged attacks, the enemy gets to use all the tactics and strategy he wants while you sit and wait for him to come and get you. Or if you'd rather die on turn 3 you could always charge straight torwards him. Of course you will never charge him, because anyone who knows what the are doing will not put their units in distance, as most units in the game charge at least 10 inches to your 6. So what then is the proper alternative at 2000 points to at least having a decent character?(Thanes are minimally better than special choice champions)(Runesmiths are good with added runes, but in combat they are weak, and usually die)



AB 2 or AB3? In AB 2 it's correct: "Takes up a Lord and a Hero choice".

AB2 add thre runesmiths, then add Thorek Ironbrow(lord and hero) everything is fine. Now take him out and put in Grombrindal. Too many heroes. Also Thorke Ironbrows rune armor conflicts with the master rune of gromril, even though it has the same effect it doesnt state that its the same rune. Is this suppossed to be this way.(only one version of a master rune per army)


Lots of points? You might wanna try taking just 2 Runesmiths. One with the Rune of Balance, the other with 2 Runes of Spellbreaking. This will effectively give you +4 Dispel Dice (the Rune of Balance effectively gives you +2 DD) and you can stop two spells you really need to stop. Most Dwarf players i know use them like that, but it really depends on who you play against of course.Tomb kings don't use power dice, and I had this equipped a couple weeks ago, but my opponent said his army didnt use power dice. Every army gets 2 power dice per 2000 points correct? So i would still get the die regardless, but it wouldnt effect him in any way.


Well 2 single hits of that Steam Cannon can kill the Hierophant if you're lucky, that's scary enough for most people (whether or not something is scary doesn't matter, as long as your opponents thinks so it's fine ;)). And because he uses a template, you can easily whipe out (part of) the crew of a Skull Catapult in one go. Problem there being that a Heirophant(Liche High Preiest) has 3 wounds, and can fly, so i highly doubt I could just sit there and shoot at him for three turns in a row without him charging me. In fact theres no way at all to hit a flying creature with the gyrocopter without getting charged.


And if you thought you had an easy win, try going for the Steam Roller army variant. An entire army with non-shooting Dwarf infantry except for 2 Gyrocopters (and no special characters). If you can win with that, you can win with anything really. Lol, hey listen the only reason I had an easy win was because he took a more traditional TK army, with the Casket of souls(easy target for stone throwers) instead of the Tomb King, three units of skeletons and less swarms and no bone giant. Thats like if i took out all my characters and my stone throwers and went after him, lol.

anarchistica
02-04-2005, 00:52
oops, thats my bad. AB doesnt display that, and shows it as a 3+, and I don't know the rules completely yet, so I'll have to make sure I bring that up next time.
Well it only works in close combat, that's why it's not displayed in the profile. It's noted in the shield description though.

And AB is just a tool, you can't do without the rulebook. ;)


Well unfortunatly, I'm one of the people out there that think Dwarves are broken. Dwarves are suppossed to be masters in battles of attrition, and while they boast the highest leadership in the game, it still really isnt that big of a deal.(they still fail 25% of the time), and while they have base S4 and T4, any heavy hitting army will crack that no problem.
Actually, with a Lord around you only fail 8% of the time, and with their normal Ld 9 it's still 7/36 (far from 25%).

They only have base S3, but their T4 really does help alot against anything that isn't S6. Even something with S5 has a 1 in 3 chance to fail to wound, which is a huge benefit (i play Elves normally...).


And no one in the dwarf army causes fear, or is immune to it, hardly something i'd expect out of warriors so proud, who have seen the most horrible things, and faced the most wretched creatures of probably any army. There are unbreakable units Like slayers, but they don't have the luxury of armor, so you can't really say that they make up for it.
Well the warhammer world is full of horrible things, and if having seen those would make you immune to Fear, Fear wouldn't matter anymore. I think your problem with Fear comes only from your tiny units. If they don't Outnumber you, it hardly matters (you easily pass any Fear-tests).

If it's really such a bother, use the Banner of Courage.

Yes it's true that Dwarfs are slow and your opponent outmanouvres them easily, but if you use terrain to your advantage and try to control his deployment (setting up fire-corridors) you can still call some shots. Also, baiting (fleeing from a charge) can help, Gyrocopters especially excel at this.


So what then is the proper alternative at 2000 points to at least having a decent character?(Thanes are minimally better than special choice champions)(Runesmiths are good with added runes, but in combat they are weak, and usually die)
If you find your Runesmith to be frail, give them Ward Saves/Master Rune Of Gromril. They are in my humble opinion the best characters in the Dwarf Army.


AB2 add thre runesmiths, then add Thorek Ironbrow(lord and hero) everything is fine. Now take him out and put in Grombrindal. Too many heroes. Also Thorke Ironbrows rune armor conflicts with the master rune of gromril, even though it has the same effect it doesnt state that its the same rune. Is this suppossed to be this way.(only one version of a master rune per army)
You confuse character slots with Hero/Lord choice. In a 2000 points game, you have 4 character slots, one of which can be used to take a Lord choice, and any character slot can always be used to take a Hero Choice. Grombrindal takes up a Lord and a Hero choice, leaving you with 2 character slots that can be used to take Heroes.

And indeed AB doesn't seem to mind taking a MR that's already on a special character. Curious. No one's mentioned this before either. Now i could "fix" this in a really dirty way, but that would slow up AB needlessly. Hmm...


Tomb kings don't use power dice, and I had this equipped a couple weeks ago, but my opponent said his army didnt use power dice. Every army gets 2 power dice per 2000 points correct? So i would still get the die regardless, but it wouldnt effect him in any way.
You would get the Dispel Die, but otherwise it wouldn't affect him indeed. I tend to play with modified rules so i forgot that (i tend to make lists that work against any list too). My bad. :p


Problem there being that a Heirophant(Liche High Preiest) has 3 wounds, and can fly, so i highly doubt I could just sit there and shoot at him for three turns in a row without him charging me. In fact theres no way at all to hit a flying creature with the gyrocopter without getting charged.
Well it's confusing if you call him a Hierophant while he is a Liche High Priest. In the first post his list had a Tomb King so his Hierophant had to be a Liche Priest (who has 2 wounds).

And you can always flee from his charge, leaving his Priest in a position to be shot or charged. Admittedly, this works better if you have a Cannon (5" rule doesn't work for Cannons).

Being an annoyance, killing warmachine crew and baiting units really are the Gyrocopter excels at yes, you can deal with characters in other ways.


Thats like if i took out all my characters and my stone throwers and went after him, lol.
A friend of mine tried it on me once. I played Dark Elves with 3 shooty units and 6 levels of magic. The result? Well, i picked out his units one by one, leaving him with only his Ironbreakers with General and BSB at the end. Only time i ever managed to charge one unit simultaniously with six of mine...:D

BullBuchanan
02-04-2005, 03:43
You confuse character slots with Hero/Lord choice. In a 2000 points game, you have 4 character slots, one of which can be used to take a Lord choice, and any character slot can always be used to take a Hero Choice. Grombrindal takes up a Lord and a Hero choice, leaving you with 2 character slots that can be used to take Heroes.
Then why does Thorek only take up 1? Is it because theres a mention of an "extra hero"


And indeed AB doesn't seem to mind taking a MR that's already on a special character. Curious. No one's mentioned this before either. Now i could "fix" this in a really dirty way, but that would slow up AB needlessly. Hmm...
Um..i think you misunderstood me, although now you have my interest. ;) For instance, Thorek Ironbrow has runic armor that gives him a 1+ armor save. It does not state that it is the master rune of gromril on this item. Yet, when I try to add MR of gromril onto another character I get a validation error. It really isn't any big deal, but just something i figured id mention.


I tend to play with modified rules so i forgot that (i tend to make lists that work against any list too). My bad. :p
Heh, I thought I had such a list, but apparentley its abhoredly weak against a fear causing chariot army :)


Well it's confusing if you call him a Hierophant while he is a Liche High Priest. In the first post his list had a Tomb King so his Hierophant had to be a Liche Priest (who has 2 wounds). Well he's been using the same heirophant all along to my knowledge. Is he not allowed to do this?


And you can always flee from his charge, leaving his Priest in a position to be shot or charged. Admittedly, this works better if you have a Cannon (5" rule doesn't work for Cannons). I fled twice last week and rolled snake yeyes and a 1/2 plus im stunty so minus 1 ;) thats just poor rolling, but still most of the time it would take at least a good 6 or up to get out of range, its a tough call to make, especially since every unit is inexpendable.[/QUOTE]

anarchistica
02-04-2005, 12:08
Then why does Thorek only take up 1? Is it because theres a mention of an "extra hero"
That's a bug. Fixed it.


Um..i think you misunderstood me, although now you have my interest. ;) For instance, Thorek Ironbrow has runic armor that gives him a 1+ armor save. It does not state that it is the master rune of gromril on this item. Yet, when I try to add MR of gromril onto another character I get a validation error. It really isn't any big deal, but just something i figured id mention.
Heh, i just found out you can by-pass this by choosing the other character after Thorek. Thorek's armour does have the Master Rune of Gromril, look in the Dwarf Book, page 51.


Heh, I thought I had such a list, but apparentley its abhoredly weak against a fear causing chariot army :)
Nah, a list that works against any army would have at least 2 units of 20+ models, a Cannon and Bolt Throwers.


Well he's been using the same heirophant all along to my knowledge. Is he not allowed to do this?
Stop using hierophant as a unit's name! :p

It's a Liche Priest or Liche High Priest. A Liche High Priest is a Lord, and you can only have 1 Lord in a 2000 points game, which means you can't take a Tomb King. Which...


1 Heirophant
1 Tomb King
1 Battle standard bearer
1 Tomb Prince
He had in the first list of his army you posted...


I fled twice last week and rolled snake yeyes and a 1/2 plus im stunty so minus 1 ;) thats just poor rolling, but still most of the time it would take at least a good 6 or up to get out of range, its a tough call to make, especially since every unit is inexpendable.
You don't get the -1 for the Gyrocopter (Dwarf book, page 17, under "Flying Machine"). And that's just bad luck. The Flame Template is about 8-9" long so you only need to roll a 12 on 3D6 (slightly above average, but if you can bait his Liche Priest hierophant it's worth it).

Etienne de Beaugard
02-04-2005, 13:33
@ BullBuchanan - Anarchistica is giving solid advice. Your relying on special characters and single models to win games. Sometimes this works, but just as often it will backfire (as the model gets targetted and slain).

To address a few of your claims:

On the Weakness of Dwarf Warriors - Your assessment is just plain wrong. For a mere 9 points you get a warrior with an elite weapon skill, above average toughness, a 3+ hth save, and a 9 Ld. At this cost, you can afford to field large units. A unit of 25 Dwarf warriors with full command costs 250 pnts.

When attack by the Ushbasti you fear so much, they will loose 4 models on average. However, they will have 3 extra ranks, will outnumber the enemy and will have a standard. Final combat totals: Dwarves 5, Ushbasti 4. Dwarves win. Ushbasti loose a wound.

On turn two, you can bring in additional units to aid your warriors in the combat. Ultimately, you will win.

For the cost of the White Dwarf, you can buy two of these units. Put some of you plentiful characters in these units. Give those characters great weapons, and you will find yourself winning on turn 1 or 2, even unaided.

On Crossbow-Dwarfs with Shields - If a fast enemy is hitting a unit of 10 models, they are going to die, shields or no. As a Bretonnian player I'm familiar with shock and speed tactics. A unit I charge will have at least a 70% probability of breaking (or crumbling to dust in the case of undead), or I'm not charging it. Against a small lance of 6 KotR, average rolls will have your 10 Crossbow Dwarfs (with Shields) loosing combat and needing a 2 or 3 to hold fast. Without shields, you would need a 2 to hold. Not much difference really.

That said, I agree crossbows have a place in your army, due to extra range. Just skip the shields.

Special Characters win Games - They can, or your opponent can avoid them. Dwarf characters can still only move at 6" a turn on the march. Once I know where your character is, I just play keep-away, while slaying the units your hero isn't part of.

If, in a 2k game, I had the choice between a special character or 50 Dwarf Warriors, I would take the warriors any day.

I need to stop the Magic - Unless your opponent is playing a magical gunline army (like an SAD army) you don't care much about magic. So what if your enemy is able to charge you on turn 2. That's expected with Dwarfs.

With their limited movement, Dwarfs will be charged, and if your unit is large enough, the Dwarfs can take the charge, maybe even winning combat.

In summation, by loading up on characters, and special characters, you are denying yourself the true strength of the Dwarven army, large blocks of core troops.

Go to Bugman's Brewery, or aske people to post their 2k Dwarf tourney lists. Try a solid looking one for 5-7 games. I expect you'll be converted.

BullBuchanan
02-04-2005, 15:49
@ BullBuchanan - Anarchistica is giving solid advice. Your relying on special characters and single models to win games. Sometimes this works, but just as often it will backfire (as the model gets targetted and slain).

To address a few of your claims:

On the Weakness of Dwarf Warriors - Your assessment is just plain wrong. For a mere 9 points you get a warrior with an elite weapon skill, above average toughness, a 3+ hth save, and a 9 Ld. At this cost, you can afford to field large units. A unit of 25 Dwarf warriors with full command costs 250 pnts.

When attack by the Ushbasti you fear so much, they will loose 4 models on average. However, they will have 3 extra ranks, will outnumber the enemy and will have a standard. Final combat totals: Dwarves 5, Ushbasti 4. Dwarves win. Ushbasti loose a wound.

On turn two, you can bring in additional units to aid your warriors in the combat. Ultimately, you will win.

For the cost of the White Dwarf, you can buy two of these units. Put some of you plentiful characters in these units. Give those characters great weapons, and you will find yourself winning on turn 1 or 2, even unaided.

On Crossbow-Dwarfs with Shields - If a fast enemy is hitting a unit of 10 models, they are going to die, shields or no. As a Bretonnian player I'm familiar with shock and speed tactics. A unit I charge will have at least a 70% probability of breaking (or crumbling to dust in the case of undead), or I'm not charging it. Against a small lance of 6 KotR, average rolls will have your 10 Crossbow Dwarfs (with Shields) loosing combat and needing a 2 or 3 to hold fast. Without shields, you would need a 2 to hold. Not much difference really.

That said, I agree crossbows have a place in your army, due to extra range. Just skip the shields.

Special Characters win Games - They can, or your opponent can avoid them. Dwarf characters can still only move at 6" a turn on the march. Once I know where your character is, I just play keep-away, while slaying the units your hero isn't part of.

If, in a 2k game, I had the choice between a special character or 50 Dwarf Warriors, I would take the warriors any day.

I need to stop the Magic - Unless your opponent is playing a magical gunline army (like an SAD army) you don't care much about magic. So what if your enemy is able to charge you on turn 2. That's expected with Dwarfs.

With their limited movement, Dwarfs will be charged, and if your unit is large enough, the Dwarfs can take the charge, maybe even winning combat.

In summation, by loading up on characters, and special characters, you are denying yourself the true strength of the Dwarven army, large blocks of core troops.

Go to Bugman's Brewery, or ask people to post their 2k Dwarf tourney lists. Try a solid looking one for 5-7 games. I expect you'll be converted.

Ok, so Lets just say i remove all my characters and add three more blocks of 25 warriors(an example) against an army like Tomb Kings, or ogre kingdoms, thats just more units that are going to get charged, right? So chances are real good that if I have to make 7 fear checks in one turn, instead of one or two, chances are probably pretty good that some of them are going to flee right? And then those will instill panic in those around them. Being 12 inches from the board, and enemies with 10-16 movement racing behind me, this is not a scenario which I am very fond of.
Believe me I'm not arguing that having lots of core doesnt work, but when you dont have anything that can stand up to a charging tomb king in chariot with killing blow, then where are you?

Not to mention I just bought a High Elf, and a bretonnian army, and I need a couple of new cases for them, so I don't really have the cash to add any more big units for awhile ;)

User Name
02-04-2005, 16:55
You do need some charicters to add enough killing power to your units to survive the charge and win combat, but a 500 point charicter is a little accesive because you could bet more warriors and war machiens. As said befor dwarfs are supose to take a charge and then bring to bear higher numbers hopefully in the flank which would requier a higher number of troops

I mean 2 s7 bolt throwers or a coupl of cannons would wreal havoc on the charitos, just deploy one on each flank and hope he makes a mistake in movement and opens himself up to a flank shot

Akuma
02-04-2005, 17:50
500 points is all points that ALL characters should cost - If you want army builded spcificly for TK - ask I will post it.

Etienne de Beaugard
02-04-2005, 18:24
Ok, so Lets just say i remove all my characters and add three more blocks of 25 warriors(an example) against an army like Tomb Kings, or ogre kingdoms, thats just more units that are going to get charged, right?

Wrong. The enemy has the same number of charging units, whatever you bring to the table. If you have more units on the table, your enemy has more units he could potentially charge. This forces your opponent to make choices, possibly bad choices.

Additionally, with extra units, you can actually support larger units with smaller elites, protecting your flanks and limiting the effect your enemy can have on your forces.

Besides, I only suggested taking out one character, namely your 500 pnt. special character. That one models bought you 50 Dwarfs.


So chances are real good that if I have to make 7 fear checks in one turn, instead of one or two, chances are probably pretty good that some of them are going to flee right?

Not really. Your assuming your opponent is going to charge with everything at once. More likely, you will only be charged by 2-4 units. With a base leadership of 9, you only have a 13% chance of failing the fear check anyways.

And so what if you fail the fear check. The only way you will flee is if the enemy outnumbers you. This is highly unlikely if your unit is 25 Dwarfs strong. The worst that is likely to happen is you hit on 6's on the first turn of combat. Who cares. Your whole goal is to recieve the charge, stand firm and then dish out the punishment on the second and subsequent turns of combat.

Now if you stick with your minimal units, which fear causing enemies can easily outnumber, then you have a problem.


Believe me I'm not arguing that having lots of core doesnt work, but when you dont have anything that can stand up to a charging tomb king in chariot with killing blow, then where are you?

Said charging Tomb King, even with the chariot, will kill a whopping two Dwarfs, on average. Killing blow is irrelevant as a) your likely to roll one 6 in four attacks and b) with S7 (assuming the TK has a great weapon or comparable S bonus), he's ignoring armor on your 1 wound models anyways.

With Dwarfs, you can loose combat by 2 resolution points and still have a good chance to stand firm. Since your large block outnumbers the enemy, you don't have to worry about insta-breaking.

I suspect the reason you have no faith in the Dwarfish core units are you have never fielded an army that emphasizes them.

A Dwarfish player better have a strong stomach, as the most effective tactics for the army involve baiting your opponent into charging, taking the blow on the chin, and then dishing back ten times as much punishment on the next turn.


Not to mention I just bought a High Elf, and a bretonnian army, and I need a couple of new cases for them, so I don't really have the cash to add any more big units for awhile ;)

Well, since the purchases are made, your stuck. Personnally, I stick to one army at a time. I prefer having a large army, which allows variety in list, rather than having two or three small armies which struggle to play 2k games.

BullBuchanan
03-04-2005, 16:45
@Etienne You're Right. Yesterday I realized that I was wrong, but had to work all day so this is the first I could post. I guess I've been too caught up on kiiling the enemy instead of beating him. A unit of 25 dwarf warriors 5x5 w/command will never kill a tomb king, but they may be able to beat him(max rank bonus 3 right? +1 command =4 CR each turn) plus they would all get a 3+ save in HtH if I gave them hand weapons, so their casualties would be minimal. Since All tomb kings are immune to pyschology and never break, the amount won combat by is transferred as wounds. So if I can beat him by 2 a turn, in 2 turns he's probably toast. Ill give it a try, but right now I dont have the cash for x2 warriors, x1 Ironbreakers,x2 hammerers, or bolt throwers or other siege, but when I do I'll build it up a little bit. I really didn't want to put too much cash into my dwarf army when I heard that they are getting redone right after wood elves, but since I plan on selling anyway before the new minis come out, I guess It really wont matter.

User Name
03-04-2005, 20:34
try looking for things on ebay, you can usually quite a few good deals.