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Chaos Lord Primus
24-08-2006, 22:29
I've been toying with doing a script for a 40k animated mini-series for a school project (I'm a college cinema student). After much reflection, I've decided to focus on parts of the Great Crusade, the Heresy and its aftermath.

My reasons are such; it's the grand drama that, for me at least, defines the Imperium and Chaos. And it has the Primarchs, which are epic characters by definition.

Which led me to a problem. Out of all the described Primarchs, which ones have the most dramatic and compelling stories/moments?

So far, I've got this:

Leman Russ: Great Norse mythology (Aesir and the uh... other guys) overtones, his meeting the Emperor, the assault on Prospero, and the whole vision and leaving for the Wolftime.

Night Haunter: Everyone knows the Heart of Darkness drill, and the Callidus thing. Great themes, but tertiary to the course of the Heresy.

Rogal Dorn: Carrying the Emperor's body back to Terra. If done properly, a great way to highlight the tragedy of his death.

Sanguinus: His speech on Baal, breaking the Bloodthirster, the whole dying to Horus thing.

Horus: Duh.

Alpharius: His boarding action on Horus' cruiser, and the whole invasion of Tesstra Prime, his duel with Guilliman.

I know there are more. Warseer, help me!

Indrid Khold
24-08-2006, 23:42
Lion El'Johnson has a pretty good story, what with his old buddy betraying him to chaos and his homeworld turning to Chaos.

A few others:

Magnus the Red using his forbidden powers to warn the Emperor and being condemned for it.

Lorgar being rebuked for his religious devotion to the Emperor and turning to Chaos.

Corax and his guilt for corrupting the gene seed of his legion, then disappearing into the Eye of Terror.


If I had to pick just a one though, I'd go with Sanguinius first and foremost. His wings are awesome, and complement his angelic wisdom and demeanor, he kills a bloodthirster, he fights Horus and weakens him enough for the Emperor to lay the killing blow .... and so on. He's a pretty cool dude.

Second would be Horus himself, followed by Rogal Dorn.

Sounds like an ambitious project though! Best of luck, and be sure to post it here when it's done.

Dais
24-08-2006, 23:45
manus had that whole metal dragon fight, corax had his rebellion and those experiments, lion had his duel with luthor, khan had his disappearance into the webway but that was after the heresy, mortrion had the climb up the mountain on barbarus with the original death guard, and what part of a giant red, psycic,magical cyclops ISN'T dramatic?

the hard ones will be guillman, lorgar, and especially vulkan.

Hellebore
25-08-2006, 01:17
Depends what you mean by dramatic.

Konrad Curze was perhaps the most atmospheric (he is in a very real way Azrael's version of batman) and dramtic.

Magnus had the most tragedy, whilst Leman Russ is the most light hearted of the lot (and thus the least dramatic).

Hellebore

Maguni
25-08-2006, 01:31
Where can I read all this background? I need to know more than just the common knowledge stuff.

Khaine's Messenger
25-08-2006, 02:05
The most "dramatic" loyalist is Sanguinius--and that drama was the birth of five thousand generations of passion plays. The others are either merely important for serving others' drama (Russ, eg) or so removed from the core of the story that their own dramas seem diminished by comparison (Corax, Vulkan, Khan, Manus). When it comes to the Chaos Legions, the most dramatic is a tossup between Lorgar (the broken fanatic) and the obvious lead, Horus, and the only thing Lorgar lacks is the "presence" of the Warmaster.

stompzilla
25-08-2006, 02:54
Manus's attack on Istavaan V was pretty dramatic.

Most dramatic - Sanguinius was involved in come pretty bad ass scraps, ambushed by daemons, faught on the walls of the imperial palace and fought horus himself. All this after being Horus' closest friend for centuries.

Forces Unknown
25-08-2006, 03:26
Fulgrim's slaying of his brothers Ferrus Mannus and Roboute Guilliman is pretty dramatic stuff. Fratricide usually is.

stompzilla
25-08-2006, 03:31
Being possesed by a daemon because he couldn't bring himself to slay Ferrus and then lopping off his head is also pretty good!

In fact, isn't fulgrim the hardest Primarch of all (Barring horus) poontanging 2 brother primarchs?

Khaine's Messenger
25-08-2006, 04:48
Manus's attack on Istavaan V was pretty dramatic.

Perhaps, but the opening question asked who of them all was the most dramatic. And frankly, Manus lacks a certain depth or definition of character in the background as written to achieve drama to compete on the same playing field as the Primarchs who hog the stage more often (eg, the Lion and the Wolf).

Aloysius
25-08-2006, 12:47
The Lion was more of a shadowy character. The Wolf was, well, a wolf. The clash was that of a shadow and of a beast. But I suppose the Dark Angels, so I'm biased. ;)

The Primarch of the Alpha Legion (Alpharius? I can't remember) is probably the most dramatic. Staging an attack on the opponent after telling them and letting them prepare without a single casualty? Please.

If you want a good Source, Wikipedia works for me. It gives a short synopsis for each Primarch. Not the best detail on the web, but free and easy to understand.

Commander Ozae
25-08-2006, 21:37
Konrad Kurze or Magnus the Red all the way. Those two primarchs were good in their own way and both were misunderstood. Night Haunter because he used terror to create productive if fearful populations (maybe NH + Lorgar make a really good team?) and Red Magnus because he believed in knowledge and sorcery and the Emperor disagreed with him.

Twisted Ferret
25-08-2006, 21:52
Konrad Kurze or Magnus the Red all the way. Those two primarchs were good in their own way and both were misunderstood. Night Haunter because he used terror to create productive if fearful populations (maybe NH + Lorgar make a really good team?) and Red Magnus because he believed in knowledge and sorcery and the Emperor disagreed with him.
Damn right.

devolutionary
25-08-2006, 22:05
There's one thing folks always overlook with Guilliman.

Imagine it's your archetypal "end of the world" movie. The Good Guys win, the Hero is dead, and the world is in chaos. One man stands up to fill the void, inspires the people to rally back around the sacrifice of their heroes. His people move out amongst the populace, restoring and rebuilding the order and society that was destroyed. And at the center of it all, one man is the guiding force of recovery from the loss.

THAT is Guilliman's legacy. He was not a tragic figure, nor a doomed hero. He was not a fallen angel, nor a warrior following his enemies into despair. He was the one who at the end of it all stood up and held it all together through force of will and character.

Something to think on.

Indrid Khold
25-08-2006, 23:15
That's certainly very true, but not enough to carry a movie.

I think it would be cool to do a big dramatic movie about Sanguinus/Horus/Magnus/The Emperor and all their epic tragedy, then end with Gulliman standing at the top of the decimated Palace of Terra and looking out at all the work he has before him.

devolutionary
25-08-2006, 23:17
Sorry, I was trying to imply that this is at the end of the movie, so to speak. Some of us would prefer that to the rest of the cast though. I can' help but think of most primarchs in terms where the prefix melo- is constantly inserted.

Indrid Khold
25-08-2006, 23:34
Well in all fluff prior to the actual Horus Heresy books, the Primarchs were always discussed from a M41 perspectie. Thus they were mythical, larger than life, beings and prone to a lot of melodrama.

VetSgtNamaan
25-08-2006, 23:36
Well i am very biased of course But I am always fascinated with Lion El'Jonson. :) Exiled at birth on one of the harshest of all death worlds and not only survives but end up on top.

Chem-Dog
26-08-2006, 04:31
The Lion is a traitor.

Dorn is pretty dramatic, he is the one who found the Emperor, Sanguinius and the smoking remains of Horus, that with the hellish trip through Horus' Battle Barge would be pretty intense stuff, then there is the whole saga of the Codex Astartes.

It might be good to take somebody who isn't so central to the heresy story, like Night Haunter, Psycho Batman with the curse of doom prophecy (and incredible headaches) could be quite fun.

Magnus as quite a good story (especially looking at how it's been fleshed out and flipped in False Gods). Found and raised by scholars/clerics/mystics, reunited with his father, does some sorcery, gets told off, does it in secret, somehow discovers a plot to taint Horus, attempts to warn him, fails, attempts to warn the Emperor and thus reveals his continued study and use of sorcery, Emperor sends Russ to bring him back to Terra to explain himself, Russ is told some selected highlights by Horus and goes a bit mentalist and attacks Prospero forcing Magnus to accept Tzeench as his Patron.

Hellebore
26-08-2006, 14:21
I love Tzeentch.

That whole last paragraph of Chem-dog's reads like Tzeentch's morning 'To Do' list. :p

Hellebore

Xisor
26-08-2006, 15:22
Most overlooked?

Corax, Manus and Vulkan.

An Animated mini-series detailing the Istvaan incident'd be pretty neato on the instant Drama scale that didn't require a huge amount of explanation to emathise with the 'Hero'. Eg "Manus: :wtf: ", they just don't know what's happened!

However, drawing out the drop pod assault and the treachery, then the 'tragedy retreat' could make it into a fairly innovative little story where you yourself have alot of room to manouver in adding alot of microdrama(or lesser-than-epic).

Given the ethos/underpinning nature of the Salamanders, I think Vulkan and his lieutenants would make excellent clay for you to work with.

Xisor

Lord Dante
26-08-2006, 19:29
I find Lion'o to be the most boring but at the same time over dramatic whilst Lemun Russ seems the most fun but im not sure if that makes him more dramatic or just more interesting

ryng_sting
27-08-2006, 10:47
I'd go with Sanguinius. Easily the most dramatic.

Commander Ozae
27-08-2006, 14:25
yeah, sanguinus would probably offer the most dramatic story especially when he sacrifics himself to help the Emperor defeat Horus. It would require a lot of background explanation but it would be cool.

Exaradon
27-08-2006, 19:13
Wikipedia is the best resource for Primarch info I have ever seen. You should be sure to visit the page, but have critisism to the facts.

Daemonslave
27-08-2006, 21:48
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Angron. A story about how he fought for his freedom only to be denied his death by the Emperor. Showing how his levels of hatred toward the Emperor increases year by year might be a good idea. Though personally, Konrad Curze's story would be the best.

Commander Ozae
28-08-2006, 03:01
The problem with Kurze is that he is too similar to batman in a freakish terrorist like way. What about Guilliman, how he came to rule Macarrage by killing the man who murdered his father?

Indrid Khold
28-08-2006, 07:23
I just don't get the whole "Night Haunter is Batman" thing, I really don't. Yeah, okay, they were both vigilantes who controlled crime by fear, but let us consider these two points:

1. Batman has a strict code against killing. It is the very principle his entire ethical system is based upon. Under no circumstances will he end a life, even that of his sworn enemies.

2. Night Haunter was a pragmatist who killed everyone who ever committed a crime on his planet.


Kind of a big divergence, there...

The_Patriot
28-08-2006, 08:56
Well originally Batman was a killer and carried dual M1911A1 pistols to punish the guilty. He had no qualms about killing his foes. This was changed after the first 13 or so issues of Detective Comics to where he is today. Batman enjoys hurting villains and will go out of his way to make them suffer as he suffered from his parents death. Killing for him is the last resort not because he has a code against killing, but because once death comes the guilty cannot suffer for their crimes. To him making a criminal suffer is the greatest satisfaction, but if a criminal is unable to feel suffering he would have no compulsion not to kill them in the most gruesome fashion. Dark Knight Returns highlights these qualities of what Batman is and in that he returned to his roots of killing by killing the Joker. Being of high birth he could avoid detection and have the ability to buy his way out of any trouble.

The Night Haunter is similar to Batman in that he's a killer of criminals. He was high born like Batman, but his wealth was earned not given to him.

2_heads_talking
28-08-2006, 09:35
This mini-series... could you go with the main Horus Heresy storyline, and do indiviual episodes to eah of the Primarchs. They could do voice-overs as it shows (for example) Lion El'Johnson's capsule landing on Caliban, him as a young boy stalking some chaos ceature, then him meeting Luthor and being shot and so on and so forth.

Also, one aspect that many have forgotten is the journey that Leman Russ and Johnson took to reach Earth. They travelled in a warp that was their greatest enemy, the Chaos Gods trying to stop them in their quest. Not only that, but the conflict between them and Johnson wished to push on, yet Leman Russ stopped to help beleagured planets.

Then you have their confrontation on Earth, with Johnson stabbing Russ and Russ's vision from the Emperor? I think that would make a fantastic element of the series.

Commander Ozae
28-08-2006, 18:01
You know who could be interesting is Corax who went to an extreme to save his legion and fight for the Imperium. It'd be interesting because it shows the lengths a primarch would go to to preserve his legion and/or serve the Imperium.

drakhar
29-08-2006, 17:56
well obviously for any story-line you have to have a good and bad. The center story must be concentrated around one of the 'good' primarchs, the whole story hinges on this. As much as i wanted to say my overall favorite
primarch is perterabo with the whole outcast/mistrust scenario goes and being a technical genius and all. But, how come no one is leaving out the most revered figure in imperial history. The emperor! This guy started it all making all the primarchs from his own gene-seed. He has everything a good movie should have, the father-figure, the scientist, the supreme psycker, supreme warlord leading legion upon legion of super human good guys into the galaxy to tame other worlds all in the name of humanity. He has the typical tragic ending, he must battle evil while the war torn terra rages on below. he prepares for the final battle and goes to fight the supreme evil one of his own sons. And then comes upon the broken body of one of his most favored sons and has to fight pure evil. In the end he sacrifices himself for the good of humanity and all. Good stuff!! It has everything a great action movie should have blood, war, great story-line and tragic death where in the end good triumphs over evil. The middle could be filled with all manner of stuff could even be a three-parter like the lord of the rings. I'd pay money to see it.

Mojaco
29-08-2006, 19:03
Anther vote for either sanguinius (however you spell it) or magnus. Magnus because his proof that sorcery deserves a place in the imperium blows in his face so horribliy, with a paradise world containing everything he lived and fought burning in the end.

Sanguinius because he has to fight the brother he loved most. Might be what killed him too (a moment's pause because he tried to bring him back or something), but we'll have to wait and see for the end trilogie of HH books to know that for fact.

Isn't something like the Battle For Macragge a lot easier to do in a mini-series? HH is too layered and complex.

Commander Ozae
29-08-2006, 20:22
The problem with the Emperor is the Emperor is like Yoda, he's too powerful and too awesome and too good. He should be present but not the main character. The trick to making good characters is to be able to empathize with them and i for one can't empathize very well with the Emperor.

Gethalorre
30-08-2006, 10:17
I thought Kurze was like Kurtz (Marlon Brando) in Apocalypse Now. Y'know, shadowy, mysterious, really quite insane and psychotic. You know the type.

The Judge
30-08-2006, 14:12
He's a mix of Kurtz and Batman - more Kurtz after the Heresy. Remember the assassin that killed him was M'shen, and in Apocalypse Now Martin Sheen is the assassin.

Chaos Lord Primus
30-08-2006, 19:32
After reading everyone's posts so far (not an easy thing to do), I'm thinking that a good point of view would be Rogal Dorn.

He's not an obvious choice, but he's present or involved in most of the major events of the Heresy, has conflicts with other Primarchs beforehand, and orchestrates the defense of Terra.

Also, he's reasonably flawed, since while he tries to do the right thing, his pride sometimes gets the better of him (see the Iron Cage incident).

Thoughts?

downundercadet07
01-09-2006, 06:15
I don't think that you could do Sanguinus unless there was some sort of frame, like Mephiston teaching some noviates about the history of the chapter or something. He is the most dramatically rich, and the most integral to the story of all the loyal primarchs, but without a frame, he is just too much material. Plus, figuring out how to depict Horus raping and then destroying his soul in the most abominable way possible might be a little hard to get on film.

IyandenAvatar
01-09-2006, 16:54
dude, has anybody mentioned Peturabo yet?
That story is great; the unrequited rival Peturabo feels against Rogal Dorn. Constantly being given the dirt work. The whole story screams Cain n Abel.

downundercadet07
02-09-2006, 03:11
Or a great one would to be when Mephiston was trapped under that rubble and had all those visions while suffering from the black thirst. That would be an awesome frame to show Sanguinus's backstory, and develop his character. Sort of a Ladder 49 style approach.

Lord Dante
03-09-2006, 12:07
Lemun russ - thats fairly simple and you can even add the lost art of humor to the plot - which isnt normall in the W40k world.

SM in Viking romps, eating, drinking, generally kicking the hell out of all and sundery.

IyandenAvatar
01-10-2007, 21:59
Given the rules hike in the last codex, most of you will roll your eyes, but I will have to say Perturabo. Even if they were cheesed, his fluff is perfect for all the artists out there. He was a primarch but was always treated as if he was less than the rest of them. A story based on his experience will keep with the stand offish godliness of the rest of them, while presenting a story that gives us insight into all of them as an observer rather than an equal, and one can see his resentment/jealousy of the others which any viewer can witness and understand, much like a Paradise Lost situation though not more so than Horus vs. Emperor (God vs. Lucifer); however, the Horus/Emperor thing has already been covered as well as it is more indepth than a miniseries.

I vote for Perturabo

Tehkonrad
01-10-2007, 23:15
I'd say mangus he's so cool
how is the lion a trator?

MadDoc
02-10-2007, 01:51
That whole last paragraph of Chem-dog's reads like Tzeentch's morning 'To Do' list. :p

And the very first sentence of his post reads like trolling.


how is the lion a trator?

I would hazard a guess he (Chem-Dog) was trolling.

Kasonic
02-10-2007, 02:47
Sanguinius or Magnus the Red.

DantesInferno
02-10-2007, 03:02
I would hazard a guess he (Chem-Dog) was trolling.

Lighten up a bit, eh.....?


how is the lion a trator?

There's a theory (largely based on what the Fallen Astelan says in Angels of Darkness) that the Lion was late at Terra because he was waiting to see which side would win before he entered the fight. It fits neatly with his secretive, calculating nature, and the moral ambiguity of the Dark Angels in general.

Lexington
02-10-2007, 03:17
If you want a very good, and mostly overlooked story, the Lion and the Wolf is a very good one. Everyone knows about their feud, but seemingly no one remembers their post-Heresy reconciliation.

Imperialis_Dominatus
02-10-2007, 06:39
He was a primarch but was always treated as if he was less than the rest of them. ... one can see his resentment/jealousy of the others which any viewer can witness and understand

Well, what about Alpharius then? He must have been pissed, devoting himself to tactics and strategems and winning winning winning, and always being shafted in rep because he's the baby of the group.

Tehkonrad
02-10-2007, 08:53
it wasn't just that- arrogance and show offness didn't help
(horus was arrogant too but he was charismatically arrogant not jerkishly arrogant)

Freak Ona Leash
02-10-2007, 10:30
And the very first sentence of his post reads like trolling.



I would hazard a guess he (Chem-Dog) was trolling.

:wtf: Or he read Angels of Darkness. From what I hear, Descent of Angels sends kind of the same message (The Lion was waiting to see whom he should join, and the Fallen rebelled because they saw that as betrayal of the Emperor).

So no, he was not trolling just because he said something you did not like.

Unclejo
02-10-2007, 17:47
Dark Knight Returns highlights these qualities of what Batman is and in that he returned to his roots of killing by killing the Joker. Being of high birth he could avoid detection and have the ability to buy his way out of any trouble.

The Night Haunter is similar to Batman in that he's a killer of criminals. He was high born like Batman, but his wealth was earned not given to him.

Erm, you realise your completely wrong here, right? Batman doesn't kill the Joker in DKR, he cripples him so he can no longer hurt anyone. Joker mocks him for not having the guts to finish the job, then broke his own neck.

Batman was a killer for 13 issues, but wasn't for 1,000 odd more, but he's a killer in your eyes? You do realise he used to be a jovial sort who was friends with a magical imp, it doesnt mean he's a jolly, magic loving comic character...

Imperialis_Dominatus
02-10-2007, 21:54
:wtf: Or he read Angels of Darkness. From what I hear, Descent of Angels sends kind of the same message (The Lion was waiting to see whom he should join, and the Fallen rebelled because they saw that as betrayal of the Emperor).

So no, he was not trolling just because he said something you did not like.

Calm down, not everyone's read or heard of every new BL book. Some even actively try not to.

And from what I've heard, this is the account of one Fallen under torture, and people say a lot of crazy stuff when in excruciating pain... especially the kind the Blades of Reason can give out like popcorn at a movie theatre. Myself, I'd say this is an interesting proposition, but most likely something the author cooked up and printed just so he could see a bunch of people call the DA traitors... as if there weren't a reason already- they abandon Imperial forces all the time in their hunt for redemption.

Maybe the author's army got stomped by an arrogant and bad-sport DA player once. We'll never know.

warmaster tz'arkan
02-10-2007, 22:20
do it on the emporer himself! very dramatic charctor.sort of look at the movie 300. emporer could be the leonidus dude, and horus could be the xerxes archtypical.

Alessander
02-10-2007, 22:23
Most dramatic Primarch: the one that the latest Black Library novel features.

Higherlander
04-10-2007, 00:53
It seems most people are just mentioning the armies they like ("Go Smurfs!" "Dark Angels rule!") instead of what would 1. Be relative to other people who don't have a Black Library card; and 2. Be easily portrayed in a low budget setting emphasizing on dialogue instead of just action.
IMHO, the ideal candidate for portrayal of the HH would be the Dorn/Perturabo tale. It has fraternal competition, betrayal by both parties, and direct personality clashes. It would also only need Dorn and Perturabo in it, as they could be arguing with each other or having monologues. If the clash goes all the way to the Iron Cage, Guilliman would have to be involved too as he "saves" Dorn.
Perturabo is the ultimate siege specialist. He believes he can engineer the destruction of any fortress in the galaxy. However, his legion is always assigned the lowly task of garrison duty.
Dorn is the ultimate fortress defender/builder. He believes that his men can defend a fortress of his creation indefinitely. Unlike Perty, his legion has banners and medals heaped upon them and were honored by the Emperor in the assignment to Terra.
Key scenes of dialogue that can be used:
-Early Crusade: Perturabo arguing with Dorn about his garrison duties. Mention of Dorn's showboating and putting his banner atop a captured fortress starts the feud.
-Late Crusade: Perturabo's conquering of (forgotten fortress) leads to him being honored. Dorn is present, and when asked if Perty could ever break his fortress, he responds negatively. Perty storms off. Also, the mentioning of Dorn being assigned to Terra could occur.
-Heresy: The siege of Terra. Monologues, or vox conversations between the two could occur. Definite taunting from Perty as Dorn's walls crumble. Perty's anguish at Horus' blunder and Dorn "saving" the Emperor as the traitors flee.
-Iron Cage: Perty baiting Dorn. Perty decimating Dorn. Guilliman to the rescue. Dorn shamed. Perty ascends to Daemonhood.

Most of this was based off the old IA:IW. Dunno how much new fluff has arisen.

Smishkun
04-10-2007, 01:35
I agree with Higherlander, Perty vs. Dorn is very dramatic, while also being very doable. Sanguinius is probably the most dramatic primarch overall imo but as previously stated he has alot more you have to work in, as his story involves closely the emperor and horus.

Dorn and Perty you can do man to man with no strings attached, execpt maybe Robo which will add another perspective to the heated relationship.