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Chem-Dog
26-08-2006, 04:35
Is Russ' attack on Prospero the first Bona fide example of Marine on Marine fighting? I'm not too great with timelines but I cannot help but think that Russ might have turned arround and returned without dealing with Magnus had he heard of the betrayal in the Istvaan system, suggesting to me, at least, that the sacking of Prospero happened first.

BrainFireBob
26-08-2006, 04:39
As I recall, Magnus joined Horus at Istvaan. Whether they were simultaneous or not, I don't know. I rather think Russ attacked first, but the sack may have finished during the battle for Istvaan.

Tymell
26-08-2006, 05:53
I think it depends on what you read, and what you consider canon. I have the Horus Heresy art books, for example, and IIRC (I can't be bothered to go fetch them right now, sorry :p ) the initial Isvaan betrayal came first, when the Sons of Horus, World Eaters, Death Guard and Emperor's Children sent down and purged any elements of their legions that wouldn't turn with them. I could be wrong about that though.

However, if you take the Horus Heresy series of books it occurs even earlier than that.

(highlighting thingy is beyond me, if someone wants to pass on how to do it please do :) Otherwise just don't read next bit if afraid of spoilers )

***Spoilers below***

Lokan ends up having to fight a brother marine when he is possessed by a daemon. He is utterly stunned at the concept of fighting another space marine, to him it's just something that does NOT happen. This occurs long before Magnus and Russ. In fact, he is later told that it has happened before, it's just very elaborately covered up. It's not what you might call common, but still, marine has fought marine before.

***Spoilers end***

So there is that above point too, and it's also worth noting that the Word Bearers legion turned traitor before Horus did, so it's quite possible that there was some in-fighting there too.

Kind of depends what scale you mean. Simply a marine fighting a marine (in more than just sparring, with the intention to kill) then pretty much any time. Something a bit more organised, my guess would be the Word Bearers. Anything approaching an outright military engagement would have to be Istvaan I think.

Hope that helps and wasn't -too- wrong :)

Chem-Dog
26-08-2006, 06:29
(highlighting thingy is beyond me, if someone wants to pass on how to do it please do :) Otherwise just don't read next bit if afraid of spoilers )

type your text here[\spoiler] Except you use a foward slash instead of a backslash. :)

[spoiler]I know that Lokan fights Jubal and that Marine Vs Marine combat has actually happened (although, technically, Jubal was possessed and no longer ACTUALLY a marine), but i was refering to propper Legion on Legion civil war type action :)

Norminator
26-08-2006, 17:09
I'm pretty sure the sacking of Prospero happened around the same time as Istavaan. Horus was on his way there when he told Leman Russ to beat the stuffing out of the Thousand Sons, as of course Russ wouldn't have listened to him if the massacre had just occurred. However, Magnus' army met up with Horus after Istaavan on the way to Terra (I can't remember where I read this, but I'm pretty sure it's right). The way I see it is:

--------------------Sacking of Prospero-------> Magnus joins Horus
Horus talks to Leman--------------> Istavaan----------------------> Seige of Terra

So essentially Istavaan happened slightly after or during the sacking of Prospero.

Orcboy_Phil
26-08-2006, 23:49
From the old background I remember. Magnus was practising magic, whne the emporer found out he told him to stop it. However Magnus did not and througth his arcane delvings discovered that horus was going to turn. He magically warned the Emporer, who sent his favorite Lapdog to purge these chaos tainted marines. Since the emporer would not believe that Horus would turn at this point it is easily argued that this event occured before hand.

ryng_sting
27-08-2006, 10:35
The Burning of Prospero was, indeed, the first legion vs. legion conflict.

Magnus ignores the Emperor's ban on daemonic sorcery and attempts to send him a message, warning him of Horus's treachery. The spell burns out the wards the Emperor has built to protect the Webway Project.

Infuriated, the Emperor sends Russ and his Space Wolves, with allied contingents of Custodian Guard and Silent Sisters, to raze Prospero and arrest Magnus. En route, Horus persuades Russ to wipe the enemy out instead. Battle ensures, Magnus's forces are slaughtered and put to flight. At the peak of the battle, Russ breaks Magnus's back; as he prepares to deliver the deathblow, Magnus seals his pact with Tzeentch in return for deliverance.

Meanwhile Horus completes the Dropsite Massacre. After Horus orders the transit to Terra, Magnus contacts Horus via sorcery to pledge support for his cause and inform him that the Thousand Sons are heading for Terra.

Xisor
27-08-2006, 17:20
I wonder if, in the end, Russ felt a bit guilty at trying to kill Magnus when it transpired that Horus *had* turned traitor, and he'd went and taken Horus' advice!

Xisor

Exaradon
27-08-2006, 18:13
I believe the message of Horus's Turning Chaos was what stayed Leman Russ's deathblow against Magnus, allowing Magnus to escape through the warp.

Alessander
28-08-2006, 18:06
I think it depends on the "Unknown" time line on when the Dark Angels civil war broke out, if it happened before or after the razing of prospero.

ryng_sting
28-08-2006, 20:30
The Fall of Caliban happened shortly after the heresy ended.

Norminator
28-08-2006, 20:43
Wasn't it as the Dark Angels came back after rushing to Terra?

Aenarion
28-08-2006, 21:07
Yes it was.

DantesInferno
28-08-2006, 23:05
I wonder if, in the end, Russ felt a bit guilty at trying to kill Magnus when it transpired that Horus *had* turned traitor, and he'd went and taken Horus' advice!

Or imagine when Russ met up with another loyalist Primarch:

Lion El'Jonson: I bring terrible news...
Leman Russ: Yes, I know. Our brother Magnus has fallen to dark sorcery and attempted to use this foul knowledge to send a false message to the Emperor warning him of, of all things, our brother Horus' supposed treachery. But don't worry! Me and my proud Legion razed Prospero to the ground, once Horus told me the full extent of it!
Lion El'Jonson: Actually, my terrible news was that Horus has turned traitor, corrupting half of our brothers, and massacring three whole Legions sent to stop him. Even now he marches on Terra!
Leman Russ: Oh, ****.....

Norminator
28-08-2006, 23:10
Or imagine when Russ met up with another loyalist Primarch:

Lion El'Jonson: I bring terrible news...
Leman Russ: Yes, I know. Our brother Magnus has fallen to dark sorcery and attempted to use this foul knowledge to send a false message to the Emperor warning him of, of all things, our brother Horus' supposed treachery. But don't worry! Me and my proud Legion razed Prospero to the ground, once Horus told me the full extent of it!
Lion El'Jonson: Actually, my terrible news was that Horus has turned traitor, corrupting half of our brothers, and massacring three whole Legions sent to stop him. Even now he marches on Terra!
Leman Russ: Oh, ****.....

Haha... very amusing, just how I could imagine it happening.

Tigerguy
29-08-2006, 06:23
Or imagine when Russ met up with another loyalist Primarch:

Lion El'Jonson: I bring terrible news...
Leman Russ: Yes, I know. Our brother Magnus has fallen to dark sorcery and attempted to use this foul knowledge to send a false message to the Emperor warning him of, of all things, our brother Horus' supposed treachery. But don't worry! Me and my proud Legion razed Prospero to the ground, once Horus told me the full extent of it!
Lion El'Jonson: Actually, my terrible news was that Horus has turned traitor, corrupting half of our brothers, and massacring three whole Legions sent to stop him. Even now he marches on Terra!
Leman Russ: Oh, ****.....

Exactly. That's actually why I chose to use a Thousand Sons army. They turned to chaos for self preservation, and eventually, for revenge. But Magnus was trying to be the good guy, and look what it got him. I actually feel a little sorry for them. It just further cements for me that there are no good or bad guys in GW fluff, just everyone trying to **** everyone else.

EarthScorpion
29-08-2006, 07:38
... especially if they are Slanneshii cultists :evilgrin:

ryng_sting
29-08-2006, 15:02
Exactly. That's actually why I chose to use a Thousand Sons army. They turned to chaos for self preservation, and eventually, for revenge. But Magnus was trying to be the good guy, and look what it got him. I actually feel a little sorry for them. It just further cements for me that there are no good or bad guys in GW fluff, just everyone trying to **** everyone else.


Oh dear. Another 'poor Magnus' post.

Magnus was corrupted by Chaos while still in his amniotic tube. Tzeentch inserted into him an insatiable curiosity for magic and all things arcance, as well as mutating him in the process. The Emperor told him pysker powers were OK, but daemonic sorcery wasn't, and he'd pay for it if he ignored the warning - and he didn't do as he was told, and forever ruined the Emperor's plan to invade the webway. And when the Space Wolves came to get him, all the sensors on Prospero mysteriously failed right before they attacked. Russ cripples him, and with no one else to turn to, Magnus pledges himself to Tzeentch.

All the hallmarks of a classic Tzeentchian-stich up.

Khaine's Messenger
29-08-2006, 15:13
To be fair, the IA "Conclave of Nikea" background has been contradicted and the "safe use" clause for psyker powers has never been seen again in reference to the Horus Heresy (especially not in the HHCCG or the HH books). This leaves a monstrous black spot on history, which may very well be an Imperial retcon just as much as the "pasted over" section in the IIUP.

Xisor
29-08-2006, 16:33
I don't think it's fair to say that Tzeentch 'had him from birth', as that doesn't make it so much a 'Poor Magnus' post as much of a 'Magnus was never really there', which is IMO an intensely boring way to develop a character.

I prefer the idea that Tzeentch's influence was through followers of Tzeentch(or just Chaos in general) working to 'mix up' the way things transpired in the Imperium. There would have been Tzeenchian servants deliberately using woefully dangeorus sorcerous powers in the Imperium, deliberately inviting the Conclave/Council of Nikaea. They would have been tampering/fixing/ensuring the evidence examined led to Magnus being caught between a rock(giving up sorcery, even though he thinks he's right about it all) and a hard place(keeping up with sorcery, as he 'knew' he was right, but betraying papa).

That way you end up with the ambiguity: Was Magnus right, *can* the sorcerous powers actually be tamed? Is there/should there be such a thing as 'Forbidden Knowledge' that is ultimately and always corrupting? The way Tzeentch works is that we simply can't tell. Tzeentch's influence would be far more *fitting* that way, far more grand and manipulative to have actually led to the ambiguity that meant the Emperor couldn't afford to run the risk of tackling sorcery, yet Magnus simply knew(whether he could or not is beside the point, best not to know) in his soul he was capable of commanding sorcery to his will. However, it wasn't *his* weakness that stopped him from conquering sorcery, it was the misfortune/manipulations that steered the Emperor and the Council of Nikaea against him, even though he may well have been right.

Now *that's* a tragedy.

Xisor

jonson the lion
16-02-2009, 18:16
I've researched about this on some warhammer 40k sites and all it says is that the Sons of Horus, the Death Guard, the Emperor's Children, the World Eaters, and some word bearers were going to meet on mars and the rest of the word bearers legion goes to attack ultramar it says nothing about magnus or the thousand sons meeting on istavaan.

So if Magnus was not on Istvaan then why did Russ sack prospero? What right and what reason did he have? please if you know the answers to these questions please respond.

jonson the lion
16-02-2009, 18:50
The first marine on marine action would be on istvaan III were horus dropped the virus bombs on his sons and the other legions then fulgrims forces went against the loyal emperors children and little horus beheaded Tarik Torgaddon but Abaddon failed to kill Loken.

Caelnaethon
16-02-2009, 18:50
That way you end up with the ambiguity: Was Magnus right, *can* the sorcerous powers actually be tamed? Is there/should there be such a thing as 'Forbidden Knowledge' that is ultimately and always corrupting? The way Tzeentch works is that we simply can't tell. Tzeentch's influence would be far more *fitting* that way, far more grand and manipulative to have actually led to the ambiguity that meant the Emperor couldn't afford to run the risk of tackling sorcery, yet Magnus simply knew(whether he could or not is beside the point, best not to know) in his soul he was capable of commanding sorcery to his will. However, it wasn't *his* weakness that stopped him from conquering sorcery, it was the misfortune/manipulations that steered the Emperor and the Council of Nikaea against him, even though he may well have been right.

Now *that's* a tragedy.
Very well put. The story of Magnus is my favourite piece of the Heresy era. I find it quite unfortunate that some would rather throw it all away just to absolve the Emperor of blame for the mistake. :(

Chaplain Dionitas
16-02-2009, 19:17
I've researched about this on some warhammer 40k sites and all it says is that the Sons of Horus, the Death Guard, the Emperor's Children, the World Eaters, and some word bearers were going to meet on mars and the rest of the word bearers legion goes to attack ultramar it says nothing about magnus or the thousand sons meeting on istavaan.

So if Magnus was not on Istvaan then why did Russ sack prospero? What right and what reason did he have? please if you know the answers to these questions please respond.


Read the prior posts. Russ was orginally sent by the Emperor to Prospero to bring Magnus back for his punishment from dad. Horus sent him a message that Magnus had turned traitor Russ was to take him out. There was always a slight enmity between Russ and Magnus anyway. The Space Wolves went balls to the wall and all but destroyed Prospero. Russ was under the impression that since Horus was the warmaster and basically the right hand of the Emperor, That the Emperor simplay changed the orders and relayed them to Horus to pass on to Russ. Magnus escaped IIRC pledged himself to Horus via astropath. Horus effectively tied up the Space wolves and turned the Thousands over to his side.

Anaxagoras
18-02-2009, 01:55
One of my single favorite pieces of fluff from all of 40k is the line where it is mused by imperial historians that if Magnus had simply taken flight with a contingent of his chapter and flown to Terra immediately, instead of trying to warn the Emperor through Sorcery, the entire course of the Heresy may have changed, or even been averted.

One small moment of Pride of Magnus's part...

The Thousand Sons shall always be my favorite army due to their fluff, and easily amongst the most tragic.

Thoth62
18-02-2009, 02:49
Save for the fact that he would be stuck trying to explain to the Emperor how he discovered Horus' treachery in the first place. Warning the Emperor was a lose-lose situation for Magnus. Don't forget that the discovery of the Heresy was a result of the exact same sorcery that the Emperor had forbidden Magnus from using in the first place.

DeSnifter
18-02-2009, 03:14
Well something that always bugged me was any primarch's bodyguard getting their panties in a twist anytime they percieved an insult to their primarch. I mean, in fluff it was supposed to be soooo unheard of for a marine to fight a marine. Impossible even. Yet in the horus heresy books, the second torgaddon insults eidolon his retinue starts drawing their swords... I know its for dramatic effect and all but I mean come on, the author even writes in the novels that it never happens, then proceeds to have marine on marine violence almost start every 2 pages.

genestealer_baldric
18-02-2009, 07:54
I wonder if, in the end, Russ felt a bit guilty at trying to kill Magnus when it transpired that Horus *had* turned traitor, and he'd went and taken Horus' advice!

Xisor

Maybe when russ dissapperd into the warp not only to get the "tree of life" but to find magnus and sorry bud my bad, hows the back is it better yet ;)

TheRedAngel
18-02-2009, 13:10
I wonder if, in the end, Russ felt a bit guilty at trying to kill Magnus when it transpired that Horus *had* turned traitor, and he'd went and taken Horus' advice!Always having had a prejudice against Magnus and after Prospero hating his brother and his legion even more I very much doubt it. At least he never showed any guilt.


Magnus escaped IIRC pledged himself to Horus via astropath. Horus effectively tied up the Space wolves and turned the Thousands over to his side.He escaped "speaking words of power and melting into the ground".
Whether this was after pledging himself and his legion to Tzeentch or only with his 'natural' powers depends which backgroundbook one reads, ie it changes a lot.
The siding with Horus came a bit later, having nowhere to run to and maybe due to the demands of his new patron.

Chaplain Dionitas
18-02-2009, 13:32
Always having had a prejudice against Magnus and after Prospero hating his brother and his legion even more I very much doubt it. At least he never showed any guilt.

He escaped "speaking words of power and melting into the ground".
Whether this was after pledging himself and his legion to Tzeentch or only with his 'natural' powers depends which backgroundbook one reads, ie it changes a lot.
The siding with Horus came a bit later, having nowhere to run to and maybe due to the demands of his new patron.

I was trying to remember that part in Galaxy of Flames where Horus talks to someone about how Magnus just swore his allegiance to him.

Noserenda
18-02-2009, 13:44
Yay, Thread Necromancy from THREE YEARS AGO just to rehash this old point? You Couldnt find a newer post? :rolleyes:

Thanatos_elNyx
18-02-2009, 15:52
Or imagine when Russ met up with another loyalist Primarch:

Lion El'Jonson: I bring terrible news...
Leman Russ: Yes, I know. Our brother Magnus has fallen to dark sorcery and attempted to use this foul knowledge to send a false message to the Emperor warning him of, of all things, our brother Horus' supposed treachery. But don't worry! Me and my proud Legion razed Prospero to the ground, once Horus told me the full extent of it!
Lion El'Jonson: Actually, my terrible news was that Horus has turned traitor, corrupting half of our brothers, and massacring three whole Legions sent to stop him. Even now he marches on Terra!
Leman Russ: Oh, ****.....

That is so awesome, pity its so long or I'd sig it.

GeneralDisaster
18-02-2009, 17:23
There is actually a picture of Russ in RT.

He's a SW Primarch, and thus HAS TO BE A NUTCASE.

Russ: "So, Magnus, now you..."
Magnus *Melts*
Russ: "Oh...I didn't know I had laser vision."
Brother: "How shall we take his head to the Emperor now?"
Russ: "Oh **************!"

Chaplain Dionitas
18-02-2009, 18:05
Yay, Thread Necromancy from THREE YEARS AGO just to rehash this old point? You Couldnt find a newer post? :rolleyes:

Yeah so? :rolleyes: