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malika
22-06-2005, 12:41
This is something we sort of discussed at the Anargo Sector Project, we are trying to give them a bit of a more different/mature/realistic background. GW portraits them in a too simplistic and childish matter. Their dogmatic use of the so called "rule of cool" is clearly visable.

So...what we know is that the Orks are savages who would bash each other's brains in all day if they wouldnt be fighting humans or other aliens. However this would mean that Orks would not have time/interest in agricultural/industrial activities which are necessary for Ork society to survive and attack the Imerpium.

So how do you perceive the Orks to be?

sigur
22-06-2005, 13:08
Orks make massive use of slave labors by the way, but there are also orkish fungi farms, mostly driven by Snotlings or Grethins, maybe administrated by a Runtherd.

To the ork characteristics: I'd like Orks to be a bit less shown as barbaric loons and more like a bit more like militaristic, expansive loons; a bit of a caricature of mankind in a way, but also with much background of their own (Gork&Mork mythology, brainboys, oddboys, ...) and efficient while not too realiable technology the Imperium will never understand. But we clearly need to get rid of the "it only works because Orks believe in it" explanation.

There should be a bit more focus on the immense psionic energies a Waaaagh! includes and on Weirdboyz as being very powerful but....different psykers.

Basically, I'm very much into the 2nd edition image of Orks as you may imagine. ;)

malika
22-06-2005, 13:15
Yeah..Im not too fond of those Orks with the gigantic smiles and warmachines which look like giant mechanical clowns :wtf:
:p

But yeah, I like their savagery...however GW can sometimes overdo it a bit. Orks are not 'advanced' enough to build their own mass industry factories, but they can build some sort of warp generator which can make those ships make warp jumps by guessing...but some warlord gets to the same battlefield over and over and he doesnt have to guess?

charlie_c67
22-06-2005, 13:18
Yup, same here. I think the orks lost too much of the individuality in the 2nd to 3rd switch. The Klans was one of the best things about them. They tried to introduce a sort of clan thing in a WD but not successfully. Seeing an all Bad moon or Speed Freek army was always a laugh back in the day. I also think they've become too reliable. They used to either win or fail spectacularly, now seasoned RT and 2nd ed ork players may disagree with me here but I always felt that not knowing what sort of orks you were gonna face always added an element of excitement.

Lord Lucifer
22-06-2005, 14:09
This is something we sort of discussed at the Anargo Sector Project, we are trying to give them a bit of a more different/mature/realistic background. GW portraits them in a too simplistic and childish matter. Their dogmatic use of the so called "rule of cool" is clearly visable.

So...what we know is that the Orks are savages who would bash each other's brains in all day if they wouldnt be fighting humans or other aliens. However this would mean that Orks would not have time/interest in agricultural/industrial activities which are necessary for Ork society to survive and attack the Imerpium.

So how do you perceive the Orks to be?


Orks aren't savages.
They have a high level of culture, a complex society like ours is. It's merely free of the anxiety and uncertainty that we ourselves enjoy so much ;)

They have little interest in agriculture, except for the Oddboyz who manifest an interest in the area, and get specially trained Grot assisstants from the local Runtherd to tend to the menial tasks and as something to berate daily for ineptitude.
That and tribute cultures... societies (cities, planets, any population that can be adequately controlled by Orkoid presence) that will build equipment and supply materials to their Orkoid masters


Orks themselves are not savages. If anything they're more advanced than the average imperial citizen who truly believes his car works because it is the divine/damned will of the Machine Spirit, or that the sun rises by the grace of the Emperor.
An Ork knows a vehicle moves because of the whirley-bitz and gearz and other such gubbinz, and the sun rises because it does, and that's all there is to it

Adept
22-06-2005, 14:11
When I think of Orks as I'd like them to be, I think savage space barbarians. Big, ugly, not stupid but certainly not educated, and most importantly, independant. Not everything they own and use should look like it was constructed by a four year old with half a mechano set. It should look rugged, utilitarian and pragmatic. No room for aesthetics, no use for tradition, just whatever kills the most humans. And can we give them their own language? Having them speak only some retarded form of english, and actually spelling that way is just plain stupid.

malika
22-06-2005, 14:23
That and tribute cultures... societies (cities, planets, any population that can be adequately controlled by Orkoid presence) that will build equipment and supply materials to their Orkoid masters

This would mean that Ork society is fully dependant on these slave races, do they also design the factories, mines etc?

sigur
22-06-2005, 14:26
When I think of Orks as I'd like them to be, I think savage space barbarians. Big, ugly, not stupid but certainly not educated, and most importantly, independant. Not everything they own and use should look like it was constructed by a four year old with half a mechano set. It should look rugged, utilitarian and pragmatic. No room for aesthetics, no use for tradition, just whatever kills the most humans. And can we give them their own language? Having them speak only some retarded form of english, and actually spelling that way is just plain stupid.

Orks are meant to be fun and satiric in a way. Their language is an ever-funny part of their fluff. There are so many players who take themselves and/or their armies too serious.

Lord Lucifer
22-06-2005, 14:33
This would mean that Ork society is fully dependant on these slave races, do they also design the factories, mines etc?

'That and...'
Meaning in addition to what they do normally, they can take as tribute from others.
The odd Rogue Trader has been known to buy-off the attentions of the odd Warboss by supplying his lads with a few heavy bolters, a couple of spare tanks, and the odd item of valuable wargear in exchange for the Ork using such equipment to a)take out his rival, and/or b)put the stomp on a mutual enemy like Chaos or Eldar.

Blood Axes are willing to take a bribe ;)

Wiseman
22-06-2005, 14:49
ive always seen the Orks as a civilised race, that has its own set of moral code, different to that of humans. Its an example of Darwinism, in that its survival of the fittest/strongest. The warlord has complete control of the tribe he rules over, like a monarch, and those outside of the tribe he is more then willing to bribe. A heavy reliance is placed on the subs (grots and the like) which in a way is similar to forced labour camps. I also see a high level of superstition as well, like the red goes faster, childlike in some respects.

Adept
22-06-2005, 14:51
Orks are meant to be fun and satiric in a way. Their language is an ever-funny part of their fluff. There are so many players who take themselves and/or their armies too serious.

If I want silly and satirical I'll play charades or pictionary. Their language just screams 'juvenile' when I read it. Giving the orks their own language (and still letting them speak english with a thick accent) would go a long way to making them a genuinely independant force.

Wiseman
22-06-2005, 14:55
i never understood how another race could develop the same language as us, when people across an ocean developed different languages.

Lord Lucifer
22-06-2005, 15:03
Guys, Orks DO have their own language.
We read the translation.

Grab a copy of the 2nd ed. codex and it may help a little

The names 'Wazzdakka', 'Nazdreg ug Urdgrub', 'Ghazghkul Thraka' etc. are Orkish words


Sure, the language hasn't been documented to the point where you could have wedding ceremonies entirely in Orkish, but that's a GOOD thing :D

Crube
22-06-2005, 15:03
Personally I dont have a problem with the alnguage, or necessarily the Orks in general at the moment - I just really preferred them when their was more focus on the particular clans - eg in the Waaaagh da orks, and Ere We Go books. I just found them more enticing to collect and play - more characterful if you will...

TenTailedCat
22-06-2005, 15:06
Sure, the language hasn't been documented to the point where you could have wedding ceremonies entirely in Orkish, but that's a GOOD thing :D

Is it? i'm not so sure...

I like the orks the way they are, they make a nice change from all the apocalyptic armies around - they enjoy fighting, which marks them apart from every other army in the game (even Khorne beserkers don't 'enjoy' fighting as such, do they?)
I don't see what the problem is, though if changing them would bring out more Orky players that can only be a good thing, i haven't seen one for months :( and my Blood Angels are getting bored of beating up Ultramarines...

salty
22-06-2005, 15:10
I like the language and, one has to remember, the Feral Orks get a lot of their language from nearby communities, often of humans speaking Low Imperial Gothic.

As for culture, each clan has its own culture, so I can't how they can have none.

Much of their technology is created by the Mekboyz, who have an innate ability to work mechanical objects, and build machines. Their factories and the like are often mere Mek's Garages, or simple, crude mines. Eventually, the Grot slaves build enough vehicles and mine enough ores for the Orks to go on a Waaagh, where they will likely encounter the Imperium. They then subdue the Imperial planet and turn its factories to producing Ork materials, through the massive use of captured human slaves.

Have you never wondered why Ork vehicles are so crap, especially the looted ones? Its because the human slaves booby trap them or make them faulty to hinder the Orks (and of course is helped by the fact that the average Ork is pretty dumb).

In addition, not all Orks are innately barbaric. As has been mentioned, Blood Axes can be bought off with a bribe of weapons or tanks. Bad Moons, especially Nazdreg Ug Urdgrub, have been known to use rewards and punishment amongst human slaves to make them work more efficiently.

Salty :)

sigur
22-06-2005, 15:17
If I want silly and satirical I'll play charades or pictionary. Their language just screams 'juvenile' when I read it. Giving the orks their own language (and still letting them speak english with a thick accent) would go a long way to making them a genuinely independant force.

What's satirical in charades?

Orks used to be a lot more independant than other armies before they were reduced to just another bunch of CC-oriented creatures.

pnweerar
22-06-2005, 16:40
If I want silly and satirical I'll play charades or pictionary.

Interesting. The only things I find not silly or satirical about Warhammer 40k, are the Tau and Tyranids.

Navin

Talkie Toaster
22-06-2005, 20:05
Hmm, I'm not sure 40k isn't really satire as such, it's more of a reflection, satire has connotations of humour.

Back on topic, I'm not sure Orks are really that unviable as presented by GW. They don't actually need much in the way of food (photosynthetic skin, however much you dislike the premise, actually comes in handy), and since squigs provide protein and minerals, and they're simply a product of the Orkosystem then as long as the soil nearby remains full of nutrients (probably will as more Orks flood towards orky cities from outer regions, and eventually die and fertilise the ground causing a net gain of minerals and allowing the city to sustain more orks). The crude technology and workshops probably fit in well with the Ork programming, as since they're troops first and foremost, it makes sense that only relatively small, low tech-level factories should be made (if you're on the front line of a war, it's not really sensible to build a massive production facility near the front, and high-tech equipment would take too long to produce for backup or emergency supplies). Orks were presumably supposed to be supplied with the rest of their equipment from off-planet. It sort of makes sense.

malika
22-06-2005, 20:11
[quo]Orks were presumably supposed to be supplied with the rest of their equipment from off-planet. It sort of makes sense.
[/quote]

And who will produce this equipment?


The crude technology and workshops probably fit in well with the Ork programming, as since they're troops first and foremost, it makes sense that only relatively small, low tech-level factories should be made (if you're on the front line of a war, it's not really sensible to build a massive production facility near the front, and high-tech equipment would take too long to produce for backup or emergency supplies).
Im not talking about high tech weapons, Im talking about mass produced weapons...workshops simply dont work fast enough to supply millions of Orks and Gretchins with weapons.

Talkie Toaster
22-06-2005, 20:21
And who will produce this equipment?
The Old Ones. That the Orks survived past them, and have successfully subverted their original design to being pains in the **** is irrelevant, at the start they would simply have been a cog in the OO war machine.

And yeah, workshops may not be capable of producing weapons fast enough, but Orks do spend a considerable amount of time on a planet before launching a Waaagh, and given the tough build of their items it's not really a stretch to assume that over a few generations the orks could successfully create enough weapons.

Flame Boy
22-06-2005, 20:26
I guess from the Gorkamorka background Mektown was the place to get vehicles and weapons. The main Ork settlement was responsible for manufacture of the technology Orks need to live. I would imagine if the Orks completed their GorkaMorka craft, the factories in Mektown would provide the bulk of the weapons they need and the rest would be manufactured on Ork Spacecrraft and the "Rok" hulks they utilise?

That would suggest that the majority of the Ork technology is produced before they attack a planet, and they would construct workshops once planetside to maintain their war machines. That way planets captured by Orks are responsible for the Ork industry rather than contested planets. Then gain, I'm sure there would be plenty of Meks happy to set up a workshop a stonesthrow away from the front line just because they get a sudden urge to improve on the last Trukk they built...?

sigur
22-06-2005, 22:55
Hmm, I'm not sure 40k isn't really satire as such, it's more of a reflection, satire has connotations of humour.


Well, there is much humor in 40k, at least there used to be. Now the humor isn't as obvious any more (sadly), but still there. The overuse of macho-militarism and all that makes you think and compare some elements to the current state of the world or historical events.

Lord Lucifer
23-06-2005, 03:12
Orks were supplied by the diligent work of the Brain Boyz
The brain boyz were undoubtedly the intermediary between the Old Ones and the Orks, much like the Slann are the intermediary between the Old Ones and the Lizardmen


The Brain Boyz faded out of the picture, but ensured the Orks had an inherent, genetic memory of everything they needed to know, including technological advancement.

Ork technology is not limited, by any stretch of the imagination. They're capable of generating short-ranged temporary warp tunnels, their mastery of Forcefield and tectorbeam tecnology surpasses that of the Imperium, and the innovations they work into their weaponry and vehicles are genius!

It's just a pity the Orks that end up with this equipment don't tend to maintain it well, and the stuff was made from salvaged parts from battlefields in the first place. Poor materials don't help, really :p


When it comes to mass-producing items, the task usually falls upon the Grots, or subject populations that the Orks hold sway over, or by the simple expedient of stealing it.
Beekee Bolters are good, Imperial Tanks are dead shootie, and with the right combination of squig fuel injectors those flimsy Eldar craft can pick up a fair bit of speed!


And what isn't silly and satirical about 40K?
Come on, the over-the-top totalitarian regime (Thought for the Day... how much absolute control can you hold when you allow your subjects but a single thought each day?), the commie little Tau being a pack of short-sighted midgets (I get a chuckle out of that :D), and the Gav influence is clearly visible every time an Eldar player calls someone else a Mon-Keigh and doesn't get it

40K is a ****-take

Dakkagor
23-06-2005, 13:50
I want the "alternate psychology" not the "dumbass" background played up. Orks aren't stupid, they are simple, direct, and cunning. When they want something, they don't dither, they just do it. They don't ask big philosphical questions that eventually lead to chaos, have no angst, no fear of death, no sense of loss, do not grieve, and view a darwinistic meritocracy as the only way to effectively govern a society, even to the point of mocking other peoples societys because they don't do things the proper orky wa.

I want ork technology to be ramshackle, held together with ducttape, superglue and balling wire, but effective and deadly. I want it to work because it follows the laws of physics, not some stupid magic fairy dust concept. I also want the strengths of ork technology (forcefield and tellyportas) played up.

And finally, I want weirdboyz incorporated back into ork kulture. Having ork weirdboy navigators would go a long way to explaining how the orks can safely navigate the warp.

malika
23-06-2005, 13:54
check the discussions on the Anargo Sector Project about this

Dakkagor
23-06-2005, 14:20
Having just read Cels thread on this over at the Arnago sector project, I can say only this: WOW.

Very good piece of work there. Give that man a medal.

malika
23-06-2005, 14:23
The only thing that can to debate on the ASP is that lots of the stuff has been written from an RPG point of view (in my opinion), but then again it is still very kick ass and CELS essay on the Orks is very impressive!

CELS essay on Orks: click here (http://anargo-sector.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=87)

Lockjaw
24-06-2005, 05:02
I like cel's explanation or ork reproduction, but I think orks should have ork offspring, grots should have grot offspring, and squigs should spawn more squigs, keep them related to each other, but notspawning each other, otherwise it's like a squig is an ork with elephantitus , and an ork is a grot with down syndrome or something

cailus
06-10-2005, 11:20
I want the "alternate psychology" not the "dumbass" background played up. Orks aren't stupid, they are simple, direct, and cunning. When they want something, they don't dither, they just do it. They don't ask big philosphical questions that eventually lead to chaos, have no angst, no fear of death, no sense of loss, do not grieve, and view a darwinistic meritocracy as the only way to effectively govern a society, even to the point of mocking other peoples societys because they don't do things the proper orky wa.

I want ork technology to be ramshackle, held together with ducttape, superglue and balling wire, but effective and deadly. I want it to work because it follows the laws of physics, not some stupid magic fairy dust concept. I also want the strengths of ork technology (forcefield and tellyportas) played up.

And finally, I want weirdboyz incorporated back into ork kulture. Having ork weirdboy navigators would go a long way to explaining how the orks can safely navigate the warp.

I wholeheartedly agree!

(Just started a Bad Moons Army and loving it!)

sulla
07-10-2005, 00:39
Yup, same here. I think the orks lost too much of the individuality in the 2nd to 3rd switch. The Klans was one of the best things about them. They tried to introduce a sort of clan thing in a WD but not successfully. Seeing an all Bad moon or Speed Freek army was always a laugh back in the day. I also think they've become too reliable. They used to either win or fail spectacularly, now seasoned RT and 2nd ed ork players may disagree with me here but I always felt that not knowing what sort of orks you were gonna face always added an element of excitement.

To my 3way of thinking, it was 2nd edition which ruined orks in the first place. The codex was an abomination where you could have blood axe kommandoz, deathskull lootaz and snakebite boarboyz in the same army.

It was a massive step back from the quality ork books of the past; 'ere we go, Waaagh, and frebootaz which gave orks clear direction. In contrast, the 2nd edition codex was a horrible mismatch of all the clans in one, like a grab-bag of lollies; all the flavours but no substance.

The 3rd edition was a step in the right direction, and the clan rules went even further to restoring orks. Now they ned to build on that foundation.

Sulla.

TitusAndronicus
07-10-2005, 05:21
I want the "alternate psychology" not the "dumbass" background played up. Orks aren't stupid, they are simple, direct, and cunning. When they want something, they don't dither, they just do it. They don't ask big philosphical questions that eventually lead to chaos, have no angst, no fear of death, no sense of loss, do not grieve, and view a darwinistic meritocracy as the only way to effectively govern a society, even to the point of mocking other peoples societys because they don't do things the proper orky wa.

I want ork technology to be ramshackle, held together with ducttape, superglue and balling wire, but effective and deadly. I want it to work because it follows the laws of physics, not some stupid magic fairy dust concept. I also want the strengths of ork technology (forcefield and tellyportas) played up.

And finally, I want weirdboyz incorporated back into ork kulture. Having ork weirdboy navigators would go a long way to explaining how the orks can safely navigate the warp.
PLease dont kill the potential humor of the orks, but YES! this is how I see them as well! I dislike the randomness or most fantasy orkz, and have quitt playing them as a result. I'm hoping we draw away from that with orks as well. But the dominant stupidity is fun in a way. I would miss my grotz but sticking our from under a wartruck hood, or my exploding squig bombs. I enjoy that aspect of orks a lot, and am sad when I see people who want to make orkz all serious and crap. It's the only race 40k has left with any sense of humor. Lets not throw the potential for that out, okay? SOMEBODY in this game has to be a little silly. I'd like to see the orks as straight out hardasses, but the humor of watching some jerk throw a grenade at a tank, and having it bounce back and blow up like wyle coyote is important in releaving the stress of the seriousness of war. I'd hate to see us gut an important aspect of this game.

Lockjaw
07-10-2005, 06:15
I like having orks savage, but that's about it for 3rd ed orks, the rest i prefer 2nd, I really don't like the fungus reprduction, the whole "their gun works because they believe it does" crap, and the whole lack of kulture they suddenly have.

PlagueLord
07-10-2005, 08:07
I'm fine with the 3rd ed orks, with a little 2nd ed randomness/power thrown back in. The fungoid reproduction though, thats one of GW's best bits of fluff. Orks have the highest death rate in the galaxy, a quick and uninvolved system like sporing is nessiscary for the huge losses.

Azrael
08-10-2005, 03:03
True, I never knew second edition orks, but I find that their haphazard machines and huge hordes should appear commical, I mean relistically from a human perspective it is humouros, and to throw that away would be a waste.

Nazguire
08-10-2005, 03:43
I'm not sure about the current Orks. On the one hand their 'language' is humourous. They are humourous. But they definately have a mean edge that everyone likes. On the other hand they also come across as green Tyranids, a mindless savage horde, because GW hasn't emphasised their Kulture enough.

Azrael
08-10-2005, 03:53
true, but I have found with a themed army that gets reduced.

schoon
08-10-2005, 22:39
While GW definitely hams up the "stereotypical" Ork trooper, and most assuredly has a bit of fun with the species in general, there's always been a level of cunning beneath the "clownish" exterior, particularly with the leaders.

...and at the highest levels, if I'm remembering my Armageddon correctly, there may be a better understanding of humanity and its warfighting that the other way around.

The greenskins have been sadly wanting for a revision for some time now, both in terms of rules and figures, but I would hope that we will eventually see a "trait-like" system for creating one's own clan or Waggghhh!

We'll just have to wait (for quite some time, apparently) to find out.

shaw3029
08-10-2005, 23:07
I havnt had a chance to read all the other posts, but personaly I dont like the new orks, The models themselves are too big for my liking, they should be smaller like first and second edition orks.

The gretchin in the new edition never seem to be used by anyone i play against.

Im creating a speed freaks army at the moment, trying to convert most of the models seeing as i dont like the new ones that much. Im painting them with bright skin colours and with bright red, I really dont like the idea of dark orks.

Azrael
08-10-2005, 23:20
why are they too big? they are toughness four models that by all accounts are big, and will continue to get bigger hence the nobs and warbosses being so huge.

The reason noone plays with gretchin anymore is because noone is going to pay 14$ for 12 points of models, I mean making them metal and not even getting a box of them killed gretchin, and with the new rules gretchin are actually worth something.

Axel
08-10-2005, 23:23
I sometimes use Gretchins when playtesting Orks against a new config for my Imperial armies. I use the old plastic Gretchen from 2nd edition, and sometimes field 180 of them. Not frightening effective, but a lot of fun if when horde starts to move - half the table is covered with Gretchins, and thats just one third of the army :-)
Alas my Gretchen are not painted, so I cannot use them for tournaments :-(

Hellebore
09-10-2005, 07:06
THe orks have their own unique language, as seen in space wolf novels, they talk to each other normally, but what you hear is them trying to talk in low gothic- something they can't do well.

I prefer the ork reproductive method- it is truly unique and makes them quite terrifying- you can never get rid of them.

Sure 3rd ed reduced their personality somewhat but 2nd ed orks were just plain GARISH. THey were stupid and scrawny and pathetic- they might have been funny, but it detracted from the overall viability of themselves as a legitimate race.

ALL of ork society rests on the odd boyz, this has not changed and is initmated in even the modern fluff. Only the mekaniaks and the others keep the race going.

I believe that there are even "banker" oddboyz and shop oddboyz.
THe oddboyz are less agressive as their brains are wired for creativity rather than violence (of course this just makes them about as likely to kill someone as your average psychopath- while 'proper' orks would kill someone in their sleep- the orks that is:)).

Orks have culture and morals, its just that they aren't really a wargame appropriate topic and thus they gloss over it.

hellebore

Cap'n Umgrotz
21-10-2005, 17:49
I've got to say, I like the third edition background.
I like the fact that Orks aren't as grim and frostbitten and gothic and corrupted and tormented and sinister as every other goddamned race.

But I also think their mindset is wonderful.
The models, bar the ones that don't exist and the aforementioned metal gretchin, are great.

Trying to make them serious and asking these questions is silly.
Why do space marine wear armour with bright, primary colours, even the scouts?
Because it's easier for kids to paint.
Why do orks sound like a race of football hooligans?
Because it's funny and again, draws in kids.
I think darkening up the Orks would just lead to another generic "dark" race, and we've enough of that, thanks very much.

Kage2020
21-10-2005, 20:46
Personally I have less trouble with how they are represented culturally and more with their biology. The whole plant/animal thing reminds me of the Gremlins, the spore breeding just makes me yawn, etc. But there we go.

Kage

Ivan Stupidor
21-10-2005, 21:50
I rather like the sporing, mostly because it emphasizes that the Orks are less a race of beings than a weapon that spiralled horribly out of control. Yes, they talk oddly (and I seem to recall the Ork language being referred to as "mostly low grunts and headbutts"), but they are obviously not dumb beasts - keep in mind, the Warboss is the biggest and kunningist Ork in the warband, and he's had to fight his way up there from being a lowly boy, so he's not exactly ignorant of tactics. As for the darkening of the Orkish character, note that even in the most warlike and violent quotes by Ork Warlords, they never say why they're fighting, only that they're fighting, and they're going to keep on fighting, and after that, they'll relax with some fighting.

As for the psychic resonance theory on how Ork gunz work, it's really all speculation on the part of the Magos in the codex. I prefer to think that it does exist to some extent, but not to the "gun with no connection between firing pin and barrel still fires" level - Orks are latently psychic, and slight irregularities in precision pieces can be smoothed out by judicious application of Orkish willpower (psychic grease, if you will). It also lends itself to the fact that Ork weapons tend to work poorly in the hands of non-Orks - the problems still exist, but the fools can't fix them with their instinctive warp-oil!

Kage2020
21-10-2005, 21:57
I would imagine it wouldn't be too difficult to have a way of making them a 'weapon' rather than having this atrocious sporing malarky. Yes, malarky! ;)

Then again, I've always disliked the representation of the orks. The 2E orks at least had the fact of making you laugh going for them. Now? Everytime I read a bit of ork 'fluff' which makes references to 'yoofs' and 'nobs' it just makes me want to slap the author silly.

In other words? It's a preference thing. I tolerate the canonical race, but would rather they were completely revamped and something a bit more interesting put into their place. After all, they did it with the 'space dwarves' so why not the orks... ;)

Kage

Azrael
21-10-2005, 23:03
hmmm, space dwarfs, I believe those are squats if someone could direct me to a thread about them I would appreciate it.

Sorry, as I have said I really like the orks and the weapon thing totally works, I mean after all, first squigs come up as a food source, then gretchin to tend them, and boys to look after things and when everythings ready a warboss pops up to dust his hands off and say, "carry on, and by carry on, I mean kill the humies".
That in it self is brilliant the fact they are hard to dectect, and before they are grown they are mushrooms, brilliant.

Kage2020
22-10-2005, 00:50
Then you have successfully suspended your disbelief on the orks. Wonderful. If only I could do the same! ;) Everything that you listed as 'brilliant' I go, "Oh my god"... ;)

Kage

Instigation
25-10-2005, 06:32
If you read the ork codex closely it actually states that orks do not mass produce things and rather the vast majority of things that they do build is custom made and by hand. So most orks make most of their own things except when things become a little too technical then the mekboyz come into the picture. And with mekboyz stuff build would probably be for the entire warbands benefit - not unjam one boyz sluggo or anything like that.


This would mean that Ork society is fully dependant on these slave races, do they also design the factories, mines etc?

What you also have to understand is that orks are Barbarians. What this means is that they do not have industry. They do not have markets and any other centralised form of ANYTHING that is a representation of a non-barbaric society. Rather orks TAKE what they need if they dont/cant build it themselves.

So, in relation to the articles on ASP, while i think they are very well written and have some really good stuff to use in RP I generally do not see orks as having "Forge world equivelants" or "agri worlds equivalents" because they dont need to - but again as with all things 40k the fluff is broad enough so that situations as described in ASP could certainly happen - so i find it plausible just unlikely.
If orks in a tribe are hungry they will wage war on another tribe and take its food. If that tribe doesnt have food then they'll wage war on another RACE and take its food. Same thing goes for technology and i would go so far as to say that anything mass produced in orks society is almost always done by tribute or slave races. And this doesnt make orks dependant on them.

Just like the barbarians of earth they take what they need, when they need it from whoever they can overpower. And if whoever they overpower is still alive, well heck they just take them as well.

PS just a sidenote on language because this seems to come up alot. What we read is orks talking in THEIR language. It is done like that to make it sound barbarously simple, direct and crude.

PlagueLord
25-10-2005, 06:41
I really don't know what people have against sporing. What other method would you prefer? Vat grown (how???), Sexual (Yuck), Budding (kinda hard)?

And they must have industry; no one can be a galactic threat just by looting imperial guns. They need to be able to build their own equipment (however crude) to sustain themselves.

Instigation
25-10-2005, 08:01
I guess it depends what you mean by the word "Industry". If by industry you mean have massive forges where workers come to produce things under the direction of overseers following complex designs then you are not thinking orks.

Orks will make all theyre small things (eg sluggas and choppas and the clothes and armour they wear) themselves. Anything bigger will probably be done by the meks, if not personally hands on then as overseers of orks providing the grunt manual labour or slaves. But orks would not have "Industry" as depicted on a Hive World or a Forge world.

And just as a sidenote, some of THE MOST successful cultures in our history have been those entirely without any industry, who simply invaded and took what they needed. All these barbarians had were they're numbers and war-likeness.

malika
25-10-2005, 12:22
True but barbarians didnt need lets of ammunitions, fuels, warp engines etc etc. Its great that Orks can make their own weapons with? Well how do they get the metal? They need a forge to turn the ore into actual metal plates. What about ammo? Ammo needs to be mass produced, gunpowder needs to be made in large quantities.

Sure Orks can invade another planet to take its resources, but how are they going to invade? Will they simply wait for centuries, if not millenia, until a space hulk travels through their system? Then...how will they get into the Hulk?

Azrael
25-10-2005, 14:01
one word for ya, grots, gretchin, slaves, they would do all the manual labour, like minning and working in factories under meks, and keep in mind in every ork camp theres usually a big mek, with a squad of smaller meks, who also all have oilers thats a lot of mekanicks.

malika
25-10-2005, 14:46
So like I stated before: Orks are fully dependent on their slaves for logistics? The productions of fuel and ammunition are produced by these slaves am I correct?

salty
25-10-2005, 15:51
True but barbarians didnt need lets of ammunitions, fuels, warp engines etc etc. Its great that Orks can make their own weapons with? Well how do they get the metal? They need a forge to turn the ore into actual metal plates. What about ammo? Ammo needs to be mass produced, gunpowder needs to be made in large quantities.

Sure Orks can invade another planet to take its resources, but how are they going to invade? Will they simply wait for centuries, if not millenia, until a space hulk travels through their system? Then...how will they get into the Hulk?

Orks have limited capacity for building things such as forges and the like, but this is in most cases on a very small scale, and run, as has been pointed out, by the Meks and their oilers.

Grots and Snotlings naturally do all the hard graft, such as mining the ore. The Meks, with their increased knowledge of such matters, smelt the ore etc. Also, many Ork Waaagh's! begin on feral worlds, with feral tribes rampaging out and sacking Imperial settlements. This allows them to scavenge materials and factorums etc, enslave teh humans remaining there, and begin construction of new vehicles.

Salty :)

cailus
26-10-2005, 04:43
Orks have limited capacity for building things such as forges and the like, but this is in most cases on a very small scale

I have read bits of fluff where orks have captured forge worlds and have used them to produce huge amounts of weapons etc (This happened in the Eye Of Terror campaign and was in some generic bit of fluff (or was is Gorka Mroka - I can't remember - too much booze when I was young made me retarted)).

Official GW fluff has Orks building space craft (e.g. Kill Kroozas), some of which are Warp capable and launching massive Waaghs! which require huge logistics bases. I seriously doubt that you could do these sort of things with small "backyard" facilities. Indeed if Orks were limited to small scale manufacturing they would never have been a serious threat to the universe.

For example you could not provide Orks with any amounts of ammunition necessary for extended ops if you had small scale manufacturing. Some sort of standardisation would be required if you were to produce similar calibre weapons and munition. The alternative is that once each Ork had shot off his home made ammo, he would spend the rest of his campaign without ammo. Also their vehicles would run out of fuel without fuel processing capabilities as you can't rely on capturing enemy supplies.

So I would argue that larger Ork tribes would have huge industrial capabilities with Mekboyz supervising huge gangs of Grots and other slave labour in the production of vast amounts of weapons and ammo (these being the main goods demanded by Ork society).

I once read a bit of fluff (can't remember whether it was fan fiction or official stuff), but Wierdboyz, Mekboyz and Paindoks aren't the only types of Oddboyz or whatever non-standard Orks are called. There are Orks that are obsessed with functions such as mining (diggas) and even accounting! (As I said this could be fan fiction kiddies don't drink or you'll end up like me))

salty
26-10-2005, 09:33
It all depends on the number of Orks on a planet, as the amount of materials tehy can lay their hands on/produce directly correlates with the number of Meks and Oilers etc.

This is why many smaller Ork worlds are isolated, and the Orks simply fight themselves, until they eventually stumble upon a way of mass producing stuff. Larger Ork worlds achieve this quicker, or those worlds overrun by Feral orks, and are therefore more able to create ammunition, vehicles etc.

Salty :)

Mrlemonjelly
18-07-2006, 13:04
Orks are meant to be fun and satiric in a way. Their language is an ever-funny part of their fluff. There are so many players who take themselves and/or their armies too serious.

I enjoy that side of orks. That's an important part of their style for me.

LirEdinSun
15-11-2006, 16:53
Well how do they get the metal? They need a forge to turn the ore into actual metal plates. What about ammo? Ammo needs to be mass produced, gunpowder needs to be made in large quantities.


They don't need to forge anything, they recylcle, let the imperium do all the forging/processing, make a nice shiny new tank. let a TankBusta blow the tracks off it, if a MeKboy cannot fix it, let a Burnaboy, cut it into pieces, one hammer, one Anvil, BASH BASH BASH and a new peice of armor for 'Da Ard Boyz'. As for gunpowder, I bet one salvaged Imperial rocket could make a few hundred slugga rounds.

Waste not, want not.........

Lockjaw
15-11-2006, 20:56
I like the barbarian stlye they currently have, but wish they'd bring back some of the humor they used to have, and ork kulture too.
the sporing itself doesn't bug me too much aside from all the people you get who go on 'OMG THEIER WALKING PLANTZ LOL!!1111111!!!' that irritates me alot, and the sporing just sort of open orks up to that.
also not a big fan of orks can have grot, squig or snot offspring and visa/versa, it works to just say that spores from all the subspecies end up mingling, and then just grow when one subrace makes conditions right for the next, just don't like the idea of a gretchin calling an ork 'daddy'

LirEdinSun
16-11-2006, 07:43
I think the idea of sporing is a good idea and I think they should introduce a 'without number rule' similar to Tyranids, where you get to roll a D6 and add new orks each turn.

A new HQ option could be a 'Ork Spore' a sort of 'immobile HQ vehicle' ,armor value 14 all around, HQ 0-1 and spits out new orks each turn, roll 2D6 for new orks, but if you roll a 'double' it only spits out Grots . every shooting phase it erupts, treat it as a 'heavy 1' weapon but with 2D6 for scatter.

Sgt Biffo
16-11-2006, 10:12
To get back to the original topic, while following the current posts on this thread:

I think the use of agriculture, etc is largely a moot point for orks. This may stem from an anthropomorphising of these fictional aliens.

Typically on earth, at the present day, a speicies proliferates when it has abundant food supplies. More food + less time spent gathering it=more time for rooting.

Looking at the xeno file thingy in the back of the current Ork codex. Proliferation of the speicies happens less when more Orks there are in one area. Further more it would seem that the best way to produce more Orks is to kill one.

So constant war + Lower Ork population = more Orks!

Oh yeah... and I'm sure Orks are not above cannibalism.

Lockjaw
16-11-2006, 18:11
If they do have agriculture. it's probably mostly the gretchen and snotlings that do it, or slaves. then again there could be a 'farmboy' an agricultural oddboy

Terrordar
16-11-2006, 18:21
Sgt Biffo :

They aren't. Orks will eat just about anything.

cailus
16-11-2006, 22:36
They don't need to forge anything, they recylcle, let the imperium do all the forging/processing, make a nice shiny new tank. let a TankBusta blow the tracks off it, if a MeKboy cannot fix it, let a Burnaboy, cut it into pieces, one hammer, one Anvil, BASH BASH BASH and a new peice of armor for 'Da Ard Boyz'. As for gunpowder, I bet one salvaged Imperial rocket could make a few hundred slugga rounds.

Waste not, want not.........


They still would not be able to sustain any sort of long term action, especially at any level.

Even an Ork fighta bomma or battlewagon is still a relatively complex vehicle, let alone a space craft or gargant.

These things require considerable inputs in order to be built and to keep on operating (fuel, munitions, spare parts, lubricants). To take it from a modern perspective, even a simple Ak-47 requires a massive manufacturing capability in spite of it's relative simplicity - you require standardised ammunition, spares as well as resource extraction facilities such as mines and steel works to actually produce them.

Also your take on the matter does not explain how the Orks came to be the most numerous species before humans went into space. No looting human tanks when the only human tanks are on earth or there is no such thing as a human tank?

Ork Industrial Capabilities
My own take on the matter lies with Ork society and is hinted at in the actual Codex in the Big Mek entry. Orks follow strict principles of survival of the fittest - the stronger the Ork, the more power he has. This is obvious within the Codex - the Warboss comes first, then Nobs, then Skarboyz, then Boyz and then Grots.

The Big Mek implies that a similar hierarchy is followed within the Mek Oddboy category (the Big Mek may take Meks as bodyguards).

Hence at the top we have a Big Mek, followed by a Mek followed by a Gretchin and other slaves (e.g. humans).

Hence it is safe to assume that Big Meks control a lot more production facilities than an ordinary Mek would, just like a Warboss has power over a lot more boyz than a simple Nob.

Hence standardised Orky production could be done in several ways;

- The bigger the stature of the Mek, the bigger are his production facilities as well as resource extraction facilities such as mines. Ordinary Meks are drawn to the Big Mek through the same psychic principle as Ork boyz being drawn to a Warboss. They work as the overseers and design staff for more mundane projects such as gunz while the Big Mek focuses on more important matters such as Gargants and space craft.
- The other alternative is literally a franchised cottage industry. The Big Mek has enough power over the other Meks to enforce his will and get other Mek workshops to produce his own designs. Hence standardised production does occur.
- Obviously the Codex refers to captured Imperial forge worlds but I think this would be just a small portion of the overall Ork industrial capabilites.

Either way I think that Ork industry is probably very well developed.

Born Again
16-11-2006, 23:10
Orks make massive use of slave labors by the way, but there are also orkish fungi farms, mostly driven by Snotlings or Grethins, maybe administrated by a Runtherd.

To the ork characteristics: I'd like Orks to be a bit less shown as barbaric loons and more like a bit more like militaristic, expansive loons; a bit of a caricature of mankind in a way, but also with much background of their own (Gork&Mork mythology, brainboys, oddboys, ...) and efficient while not too realiable technology the Imperium will never understand. But we clearly need to get rid of the "it only works because Orks believe in it" explanation.

There should be a bit more focus on the immense psionic energies a Waaaagh! includes and on Weirdboyz as being very powerful but....different psykers.

Basically, I'm very much into the 2nd edition image of Orks as you may imagine. ;)

Isn't that a bit contradictory? The huge psionic potential of Orks is what makes it work because they believe in it.

Zzarchov
17-11-2006, 00:01
Orks are innately industrial. Unlike humans who have to be paid and/or coerced into working crap jobs, orks do it automatically.

'Erdaboyz herd squigs, they do it instinctively, they get annoyed if they CANT herd.

Brewboyz take the squigs and brew them into fuel (and grog), again..take away their ability to brew and they freak right out, they NEED to brew, its in their blood.

DiggaBoyz dig holes, and in doing so mine for metals. They are like 3 year olds in a sand box, love nothing more than digging tunnels, its their favourite thing in the world.

Mekboyz love to build things, they take Diggaboyz metal and work it, then run it off of Brewboyz fuel.

Orks are an army in a spore..not just front line soldiers but industrial and logistical support in a spore too.

Incendax
17-11-2006, 06:53
I want the Orcs to embody the genetic creation that the Old Ones intended them to be. I want every orc to be blessed with more Nature than Nurture. Every single Orc knows from birth how to assemble a machine gun and build ammunition as well as construct a vehicle or make a warp engine. It's expected that they take advantage of this information in a Waagh. Every single orc knows to collect certain special minerals, and while some orcs are definitely dedicated towards collecting raw materials those materials are delivered to the orc settlements where every orc knows how to take what he needs and cobble together something functional if slapdash.

I want the orcs viciousness and self destructive tendencies to be Nurture, where every orc that knows how to build a weapon does not know how to behave to standard human ideals of civility. They have developed a completely seperate culture based on a constant stream of 'survival of the fittest'. I want every orc to be able to replace itself and the whole archetype of orcs themselves being one massive reproducing and self sufficient engine of war. I want Gretchin to simply be young orcs, as every part of orc life is somehow industrious.

I do want culture. I want orcs to get interested in strange things, and towns to be devoted to those orcs who really want to figure out why they know all the things they know. I want some orcs to be rich just because they grow their teeth faster, and I want other orcs to be open to bribes from other races. I want the entire race to be a collection of war-like and ill-mannered eccentrics because they are so well supplied and self-sufficient that their entire race can afford to have 99% of it's population persuing personal interests. Like WAAAAAGGGGGHHH!

Sgt Biffo
17-11-2006, 13:06
Orks are innately industrial. Unlike humans who have to be paid and/or coerced into working crap jobs, orks do it automatically

I always thought it had something to do with a larger Ork beating the tar out of smaller ones if they didn't do what they had been appointed to. Some might call this ever present threat of violence coersion...

DaGork
17-11-2006, 21:28
I always thought it had something to do with a larger Ork beating the tar out of smaller ones if they didn't do what they had been appointed to. Some might call this ever present threat of violence coersion...

Sorta...

All oddboys have the innate NEED to do whatever they're programed to do, but if you want them to do something specific, like build a certain type of machine, dig a certain type of hole, or brew a certain type of grog, than you have to threaten to krump 'em.

That, or promise to give 'em teef. Money is always an incentive no matter what species you are.

ChaosTicket
29-04-2007, 02:19
I want Orks to keep their Brutal nature, but to allow things that are sweet. Looted Tanks, Flash Gits, Nob Units with Mega armor options, etc.

Flash gits should have all their kustom jobs for 12pts total per ork.

Nob Units are just Skarboyz as they are now, but have options that allow things such as small mega armor units, like the terminators they copy.

Looted Leman Russ tanks are great but only able to have one blows. Orks loot every thing, they even Captured a whole Forgeworld in the 13th Black Crusade, now it's Moredakka.

IncubiLord
29-04-2007, 06:30
Orks are innately industrial. Unlike humans who have to be paid and/or coerced into working crap jobs, orks do it automatically.

'Erdaboyz herd squigs, they do it instinctively, they get annoyed if they CANT herd.

Brewboyz take the squigs and brew them into fuel (and grog), again..take away their ability to brew and they freak right out, they NEED to brew, its in their blood.

DiggaBoyz dig holes, and in doing so mine for metals. They are like 3 year olds in a sand box, love nothing more than digging tunnels, its their favourite thing in the world.

Mekboyz love to build things, they take Diggaboyz metal and work it, then run it off of Brewboyz fuel.

Orks are an army in a spore..not just front line soldiers but industrial and logistical support in a spore too.
This is how I've always seen it.

Add to the fact that a Mek needs to build and tinker with the Slavers, who need to subjugate grots and other weedy gits, and you have an obvious base for industry - the Meks make things and the Slavers make slaves duplicate them.

Slavers don't care what the slaves are doing, as long as they get to beat the slaves into doing it, so they're perfectly fine making a warehouse full of Grots build Sluggas when that's what the Warboss demands. The Warboss decides on some trivial detail they don't care about, they don't get krumpt, and they even get teef for doing what they were going to do anyways.

Remember also that Orks are part plant. They can photosynthesize a portion of their needed nourishment and therefore need far less agricultural support for their society. One might argue that, being plants themselves, Orks only need to ingest the same nutrients a plant's root-system would provide.

I wouldn't say every Ork knows how to maintain and run all their equipment so much as the Orks were designed with a durable, simplistic tech that requires little to no maintenance.

Ork tech is, despite a few exceptional items operated strictly by the Meks, far from the height of Old One capabilities which you see hinted at in the Eldar technology level. Instead, it's crude and durable - while remaining sufficiently destructive.


Back to the OP:
I dislike the current "savage barbarian" feel. It's too much of a departure from the Orks of 2ed for my liking, and it doesn't mesh well with the Oddboyz background.

Orks are born with the skills (and reproductive capabilities) they need, there's no need for them to ever mature. They're childish, and this youthful mentality makes them all the more dangerous.

Note, however, that childish doesn't preclude brutal - kids can actually be just as violent as a mature adult.

Lockjaw
29-04-2007, 07:11
In some ways i like them, in others i don't, I like how they're a little less goofyand more savage, but hate the absence of ork kulture and the klans, i don't like the retconning of their origins into a weapon of the old ones, i liked the brain boyz better, i liked some of the old units like madboyz. sporing itself i don't mind, what ticks me off is when people go off and decide it must mean orks are plants, they are flesh and blood with a symbiosis with algae in them, it makes them green, and makes them reproduce different, does not make them plants though. not too sure when gretchen have been young orks, far as I've known, they always been a sub race of ork.. also not really a fan of any greenskin being able to spore any other (ex: grots sporing orks and squigs) no real reason for that. just not a fan, i prefer them being seperate sub species that have developed an ecology dependant on each other

IncubiLord
29-04-2007, 07:27
I'd argue that Orks aren't retconned as a weapon of the Old Ones, but rather the Krork, or Brain Boyz, were such a servant-race.

With the fall of the Old Ones, the Krork made what are now known as the Orks to serve as a militant slave-race of their own - unfortunately, it didn't work out.

At least, that's how I reconcile the Brain Boyz and the Krork.

Magistrate
29-04-2007, 07:53
I've got to say, I like the third edition background.
I like the fact that Orks aren't as grim and frostbitten and gothic and corrupted and tormented and sinister as every other goddamned race.


You're wrong in this, mate. Orks don't have angst or anxiety. Corrupt? Certainly. Hateful? Definitely. Angry? Easily. But stomach churning anxiety, worrisome outlooks, general despair and social fears do not exist in them. They. Don't. Care. They're Orks. They're made for Fighting and Winning, so Get on with it all ready!


This is how I've always seen it.
Back to the OP:
I dislike the current "savage barbarian" feel. It's too much of a departure from the Orks of 2ed for my liking, and it doesn't mesh well with the Oddboyz background.

Orks are born with the skills (and reproductive capabilities) they need, there's no need for them to ever mature. They're childish, and this youthful mentality makes them all the more dangerous.

Note, however, that childish doesn't preclude brutal - kids can actually be just as violent as a mature adult.

Like a child pulling the wings off of a fly just because he ( or she ) can? Tormenting some poor dog because, even though they love it to death, they just can't help but beat the thing? Yeah, Orks remind me of that in some respects.


Isn't that a bit contradictory? The huge psionic potential of Orks is what makes it work because they believe in it.

Such as Gork and Mork? Gork and Mork are not just 'powerful warp entities'. They're completely invulnerable and indomitable and both have, in Orkish tales, bested and beaten a number of the Ruinous Powers. This isn't an test of faith or question of sheer belief; to the Ork, that's how it is. He's not going to question it because he doesn't care enough to. It's not like an Ork is going to sit and think about what their Gods are; Gork and Mork are Orks, Orks are Gork and Mork, Orks are meant for Fighting and Winning, thus Gork and Mork cannot be beat because, to Orks, Orks can not be beaten. If you kill a bunch of them who cares? They'll just come back with more Boyz. Therefore, Mork and Gork can not be beaten.

Gdolkin
29-04-2007, 12:13
Orks were my first love and the only army i've ever played. I could go on for paragraphs about some of the points here but i'll settle for the issue of all greenskins spawning all other types of orkoid- I don't like it either. I'm fine with the sporing per se cos it does make them the hardy perennnial threat they should be in terms of endless numbers, which the old idea of individual orks one day getting the urge to go off alone, develop a pouch and birth one little ork (from WAAAAGH The Orks!) could'nt explain.. but i see a problem with the idea that any spore could randomly become an ork, grot or squig. Even though i dont suppose grots understand their way of reproducing in detail, isn't it said that Gretchin more or less accept their status as the slaves, subordinates, and occasional snacks of the Orks cos that's just how it is, the orks are bigger and stronger and 'fair' doesn't come into it... but if gretchin knew they could easily have been born orks wouldn't that really **** them off? I realise it's not a major problem and may well be inconsequential but i just dont like the idea that Squigs grots and orks are so 'interchangeable' so to speak..

IncubiLord
29-04-2007, 19:39
i see a problem with the idea that any spore could randomly become an ork, grot or squig. Even though i dont suppose grots understand their way of reproducing in detail, isn't it said that Gretchin more or less accept their status as the slaves, subordinates, and occasional snacks of the Orks cos that's just how it is, the orks are bigger and stronger and 'fair' doesn't come into it... but if gretchin knew they could easily have been born orks wouldn't that really **** them off?
I don't think it quite works that way.

While the article in the Ork codex says each spore contains all the information on the Orkoid species (note implied plural use), it also says that a spore which settles in fertile conditions will grow into the species (note implied singular use) its genetics contain.

Furthermore, Orks can tell each others' age and status from scent - this indicates that the spore content released is different depending on age and "health" - and to be able to tell both you'd need different areas of detail. If Orks of different ages produce a different proportion of squig-to-Ork ratios and Orks of diffferent standings produce different quantities of spores, you have two areas of detail, and what other differences would you assume?

The way I see it, Orks contain all the genetics of the ecosystem in the same way that humans all contain an X chromosone - it's there, it just isn't the complete determination of what sub-type you are.

Remember, for all their variety, Orkoids share many common features.

I suppose the ideal might be that Ork spores are formed when a cluster of Orkoid zygotes is released into an algal egg.
Whichever of the zygotes reaches the nucleus and bonds becomes the creature that will grow, while the others remain within the cell to be incorporated into the Orkoid's biology some other way - perhaps merely remaining within the cell as a sort of super-immune-system, bonding with anything that enters the cell and therefore protecting the nucleus.