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Taliesynkp
22-06-2005, 16:11
I've been reading a lot of posts by GW apologists and it got me thinking about things I've heard (and read) by GW official reps. It all came together for me today.

1. GW doesn't put much effort into publishing errata or FAQs on the web because, "only a small portion of our customer base has web access."

2. GW has had great plans for market penetration in the US. Plans that can be said not to have stalled, as GW claims, but to have failed badly.

Taliesynkp
22-06-2005, 16:11
I think 1 has lead directly to 2. While statement 1 may be true in their home country (though I doubt it), it is patently false in the US. I suspect the majority of customers for GW and GW-like products in the US are on the web. My grandson surfs the web at school and he's only seven. Which leads to a major problem for GW.

A central component of GW's marketing strategy relys on their major demographic being uninformed. GW expects todays gamers to graduate from HS/college, forget about gaming and then new customers come along. This is why they expect their long list of "bad things" to not affect their bottom line. The people who remember Squats should be long gone. New players shouldn't think "Hey! Ogre Kingdoms are sure to go the way of Squats! I'm not buying any!" because that information should have been forgotten. Thanks to the web that isn't happening. As a result, ill will dircted towards GW continues to grow as past "mistakes" aren't forgotten.

Taliesin

Cloudscape_online
22-06-2005, 16:19
Interesting points. I actually have my boxes of 'Adeptus Titanicus' and 'Space Marine' in my front room. Squats Sprues for Epic from 1990.

Shining_Spear
22-06-2005, 16:23
:eyebrows:

That just doesn't seem right, to build a company or product line around lack of information.

GW should make quality products instead of screwing up repeatedly and then hoping everyone will forget about it.

Imbroglio
22-06-2005, 17:38
I think the biggest probalem is that GW has really failed to define what the internet is for in respect to Warhammer and LotR. As it stands, the websites all offer much the same type of content as WD, and on occasion even the smae areticles, which is a problem for the company, because then they sell less WD. Unfortunatly, I can't think of a great deal of truely unique content GW can include on the net that isn't in WD - accept things like living rulebooks, which create their own problems from a marketing point of view.

Now, GW clearly appreciate the accessiblility of the internet medium - look at the revival of the UK GW site earlier this year, a major step forward. There is now more content, more often, in a more accessible format. However, it is also one reason I rarely read WD any more.

I would disagree with the argument that says GW's maketing strategy assumes people will leave school/college and forget about the hobby, largely because this is patently not true. What the internet offers is a way to communicate with the older gamers, without asuming they'll go out and buy WD every month.

I think GW appreciates two things. First, that their websites have to offer more than a rules document depository, and second that conflict with WD is inevitable. This is, I think, demonstrated by the improvements in content seen in the last few months.

Regards,

-- Imbroglio

Freak Ona Leash
22-06-2005, 18:15
And what is a GW apologist if I am allowed to inquire? Isnt that the name Trenchie uses to insult people who dont hate GW as much as he does? And GW does seem to have a horrible business model in my view. A small number of consumers have the internet? Yeah right! One must wonder, why are the people we see in WD like normal, intelligent people while the people runnig GW seem to be utter tards?

Eversor
22-06-2005, 18:46
1. GW doesn't put much effort into publishing errata or FAQs on the web because, "only a small portion of our customer base has web access.
Maybe during second edition. That statement just isn't true.

Trench_Raider
22-06-2005, 19:52
That just doesn't seem right, to build a company or product line around lack of information.

Welcome to GW! :D
They have a long history of customer and retailer abuse, yet they are still in existance. they reply on the fact that participation in this hobby (wargaming...there is no GW hobby) can fluxuate and that newer hobbiest won't be aware of their past. That is why getting the word out about GW's charming nature is so very important.


And what is a GW apologist if I am allowed to inquire? Isnt that the name Trenchie uses to insult people who dont hate GW as much as he does?

I don't use it as an insult. I use it as a correct lable. An appologist is someone who makes excuses for something, ergo a "GW appologist" is someone who defends GW's excesses. It's called "truth in labeling" and should not be considered a perjorative term.
If someone if offended by the truth, then that is their fault, not mine.

"Trench Raider"

Freak Ona Leash
22-06-2005, 20:12
You mean if someone is offended by your opinion of the truth. Seeing as how we are trying to be correct here, that is what you should say. Oh and my opinon of the truth is that you are wrong and that ranting about how "evil" GW is annoying me. That is my opinon of the truth and if anyone feels offended by it it is there fault, not mine ;)

Trench_Raider
22-06-2005, 20:50
*sigh*
It has nothing to do with my opinion.

Consider the following taken from Dictionary.com

a·pol·o·gist n-
A person who argues in defense or justification of something, such as a doctrine, policy, or institution.

End of story.

Now if you were arguing that my use of "Fan boy" were meant to be insulting, then you would be correct. "Gw apologist" is simply stating a fact.


Oh and my opinon of the truth is that you are wrong and that ranting about how "evil" GW is is judt stupid.

So I'm "stupid" now. That's interesting. Care to retract that?

"Trench Raider"
Edit: BTW, cute sig line. Although it is obviously a shot at me, I'll take it as a complement. After all, there is truth to the old cliche' "Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery".

Arnizipal
22-06-2005, 21:13
Ah, how we miss old school sniping and veiled flaming like this in P&R ;)
You should join the Guild so you can post there again, Trenchie.

Trench_Raider
22-06-2005, 21:22
Ah, how we miss old school sniping and veiled flaming like this in P&R ;)
You should join the Guild so you can post there again, Trenchie.


Hehe...
I'm not flaming anyone. Actually, I'm going out of my way to be nice. This fellow should feel glad he did not pick a fight with TR circa about two years ago.

I plan on joining the guild just as soon as I can get the funds transfered to my paypal. It takes a couple of days. Rest assured, I'll be there.



I'm still waiting on that retraction, Freak....

"Trench Raider"

Freak Ona Leash
22-06-2005, 21:23
I never said you were stupid Trench. I just said that what you are doing is stupid. I phrased it a bit stupidly myself though,I'll edit it to say this, your insitent anti-GW ranting annoys me greatly and I would greatl;y appreciate it if you woul stop. And yes, my imitation of you is flattering. Your welcome ;)

Trench_Raider
22-06-2005, 21:28
I never said you were stupid Trench. I just said that what you are doing is stupid.

Which is one in the same. Try again....


your insitent anti-GW ranting annoys me greatly and I would greatl;y appreciate it if you woul stop.

I don't see that happening any time soon.
My advise to you is that it is really all that annoying you, then it wold be best to avoid reading my posts.

"Trench Raider"

Freak Ona Leash
22-06-2005, 21:48
Hm. Well I certainly dont think you are stuoid. You are one of the most intelligent people I've ever met on the internet. It is just you're constant ranting on how GW sucks and everybody should boycott it or something annoys me. Your posts are good otherwise. No hard feelings between Freak and you right Trench? Or do you hate me? I dont believe I was flaming you as I did not call you stupid, I called ranting against GW all the time and whatnot stupid. Dont take that as a personal offense Trench, I generally get annoyed with anyone who continually rants about the same thing over and over again, GW supporters (and myself) included.

Commissar von Toussaint
23-06-2005, 04:18
Back on topic, GW has a really strange attitude with the web.

I'm sure we can all recall their efforts to shut down Internet sales that don't come from their own portals. :wtf:

Obviously, it didn't work.

More to the point, it has had the effect of sending people to ebay rather than retailers.

So instead of having some control over what is marketed online, GW has none. Great job. :rolleyes:

And for the record, one can despise GW's management without hating its products. I'm seriously into playing 2nd ed. right now. It's a brilliant system and I am tracking down every publication relating to it on ebay and elsewhere, even the WD compilations.

For me, it's always 1997. :D

But that doesn't mean I can't condemn GW's current practices as short-sighted and stupid. They arguably are.

And people who excuse it are in fact "apologists."

Trenchie's right.

Delicious Soy
23-06-2005, 06:23
1. GW doesn't put much effort into publishing errata or FAQs on the web because, "only a small portion of our customer base has web access."

Somehow I doubt GW sincerely believes this. This is a geek hobby and if theres one thing that has empowered geeks, its the internet. This tend to be only whipped out when someone is suggesting rediculous rules alterations. People would do well to remeber that for every one interesting idea that comes from these boards, 50 inane ones follow in its wake. This is only more truthful when applied to the GW boards, Stealth Marines anyone?

If GW stuff up on the internet, I think its easy because

1. They are a relatively small corporation

2. Large swathes of their target market are more adept and interested in working the internet

When they drop the ball (repeatedly and often) the magnitude of it is only enhanced by the fact that a small army of watchers will see it and comment. GW treats its site as a large billboard (a common enough occurance), when it should be using more like WarSeer or half a dozen other forums. Their forums don't encourage community, creativity or innovation and most of it is through its hamfisted design. It may work when you're a n00b but its interesting to note that the BL and Specialist forums use a system similiar to this one.

I'd hardly say GW is about keeping its market stupid, they don't need to. Most people are fully capable of keeping themselves ignorant and stupid. However, they do use tricks not too disimiliar to those used by us against each other. If confronted with a complex question, or something that has broad implications, it tends to get ignored in favour of someone ranting over the small detail. As I said, we frequently use this against each other so its a matter of asking if it's merely that individual rather than company policy.

GW has had some sucesses with the Web IMO, though these are largely relegated to the fringe, the specialist site is an excellent example of co-operation between veteran players and a design studio, however trying to scale this to 40k and WFB levels would be problematic, to say the least. What some older players is not what younger players want. I doubt all players would be interested in an in depth look at the upper echelons of the Imperium, nor am I particularly interested in how to paint exactly like the Studio armies.

The problem now is that there are several discernable divides* in the gaming community, the aforementioned Veterans vs TNG, the tourney obseesed vs the storyline campaigners, even the old chestnut of painters vs players. Much of this has been around for a while, but with the advent of the internet we can all form our little camps, wage flame wars and generally confuse anyone watching as to what the hell GW gamers want. This is exacerbated by the corporate element of GW which constantly makes descisions at odds with their customer base. Hence we have all the fun of the GW IP shock troops, the six month window, and the ever popular random price hikes. To me these things smack of mediocre managerial descisions which might fly in most corporations but in an industry based on creativity is ludicrous.

GW is a company with a small solid customer base, and wether they like it or not, the solid group happen to be by and large, bordering on fanaticism of one kind or another. They sooner someone wakes up at GW and takes this into account, they less whining we will all be making.

GAWD
23-06-2005, 13:55
C'mon Trenchie and Freakie ... kissy, kissy, lovey, lovey, or Brimie might give you two a spankie, spankie. :D

@Freak: Here's a snippet from one of your prior posts

"And GW does seem to have a horrible business model in my view. A small number of consumers have the internet? Yeah right! One must wonder, why are the people we see in WD like normal, intelligent people while the people runnig GW seem to be utter tards?"

You may not be as well spoken (or written) but it seems like you've it in for GW about as much as Trenchie, CvT, or I do (among a legion of others). Or, at the very least you're moving toward the dark side. :evilgrin:

On topic: Despite my frequent critique of GW's relations w/indy retailers, of which the repeated crack-downs on web retailers are probably the worst, I think GW's major failing in regard to the web is its staunch refusal, of late, to fix and clarify the garbage they call rules systems (especially 40k) by using the web. This is where their argument about the customer base's lack of access to the web comes in. If they use the web to fix problems, then some people will have the most current rule updates and others won't. Thus, people will be playing the same game under varied set rules. BUT, the problem with this logic is that the vast majority of stores have web access, so it would be a simple matter for the owner or game organizer to print a copy, post it on a bulletin board, and let everyone have access (yes, even the sliver of backwoods folk and young'uns who still think a mouse is a white rodent). In addition, GW's ridiculously ambiguous and poorly written rules require so much interpretation that people in different areas play by different rules anyway.

Karhedron
23-06-2005, 15:20
GW is a company with a small solid customer base, and wether they like it or not, the solid group happen to be by and large, bordering on fanaticism of one kind or another. They sooner someone wakes up at GW and takes this into account, they less whining we will all be making.
I have to admit that your description of GW customers sound far more like the Veterans you get here on Warseer than the "average" customer. When I go into GW (which is not very often these days), the average customer is about 10 years younger than me.

It is the Vets who remember Rogue Trader, Squats and all the lovely fluff who get fanatical about things. The majority of GWs customers are school kids who's experiences of 40K are mainly at the stores or with their friends. I think that GW knows their market better than we think and that we are not actually their primary target market.


I generally get annoyed with anyone who continually rants about the same thing over and over again, GW supporters (and myself) included.
I know where you are coming from. I stopped visiting Star Wars boards a few years ago for the same reason. Some fans seem to develop a real love/hate relationship with their hobbies. They are totally devoted to them but spend a lot of time and effort on boards letting off steam about aspects of it that annoy them.

I don't believe GW or their products are perfect. But the amount of hatred that seems to get directed at them on a site created for and by fans just seems wierd. I cannot stand football, I think it is a pointless game with massively overpayed stars bt I wouldn't go to a site run by football fans to try and tell them that.

Sai-Lauren
23-06-2005, 16:00
I have to admit that your description of GW customers sound far more like the Veterans you get here on Warseer than the "average" customer. When I go into GW (which is not very often these days), the average customer is about 10 years younger than me.

It is the Vets who remember Rogue Trader, Squats and all the lovely fluff who get fanatical about things. The majority of GWs customers are school kids who's experiences of 40K are mainly at the stores or with their friends. I think that GW knows their market better than we think and that we are not actually their primary target market.

I must agree here. Us 30-somethings, and even the 20-somethings aren't GWs target market. It's the pre-GCSE schoolkids who're going to be into it for 6 months to a year, then drop it when their peer group alpha decides it's not cool anymore.


I know where you are coming from. I stopped visiting Star Wars boards a few years ago for the same reason. Some fans seem to develop a real love/hate relationship with their hobbies. They are totally devoted to them but spend a lot of time and effort on boards letting off steam about aspects of it that annoy them.

AKA I could do it better syndrome.

But having said all that, I do believe that GW have dropped the ball with their web presence. I think that like a lot of companies, the execs said "We must have a web-site", and lo and behold they got one. Except no one really said what should be on it. It's a lot better than it was, but it's still not great - it's still more of an electronic advertising hording than a hobby support site or e-tail outlet. (And I must say Mongoose's site is just as bad).

An example of a good site in the same kind of sphere is the MTG site - http://www.wizards.com/magic . They have daily columns - some written by freelancers who're involved with WoTC, some by staff members - covering everything from tournaments to why they made the cards and how they costed them. They have a weekly rules column, and a daily miscellaneous question. Plus a lot of information on the cards themselves, including errata, in their database.

GW did have occasional columns from Gav and Andy, but they stopped, what two years ago? Where did the rumours go - ok with the six month window they're less useful, but it would be good. What about more general hobby articles, a WD archive (say anything over a year old), painting and modelling tips and so on? Why does only the US site have Black Gobbo, when it could be linked off all sites within half an hour of being updated?

Freak Ona Leash
23-06-2005, 16:06
@ GAWD:That was one time. And I dont continually rant like you and Trench do. I just made an observation. I dont think GW is infalliable, far from it but I do think that if you hate GW so much, why come to a GW board? So, if I hated GW like you and Trench and your "legion of others" I wouldnt be on a board mainly dedicated to GW now would I?

Commissar von Toussaint
23-06-2005, 17:28
@ GAWD:That was one time. And I dont continually rant like you and Trench do. I just made an observation. I dont think GW is infalliable, far from it but I do think that if you hate GW so much, why come to a GW board? So, if I hated GW like you and Trench and your "legion of others" I wouldnt be on a board mainly dedicated to GW now would I?

I don't know about them, but I come here to talk about GW games that I enjoy. At the same time, I also believe in offering constructive criticism where it is needed.

You may think it fun for a bunch of people to go online and post things like:

"GW's business model sure is solid."

"Yep. Great customer service, too."

"I personally like the way they respect and support independent retailers."

"Agreed. That and their policy of one web portal for online sales is a real blessing for consumers. I can't wait for that next price increase. Nothing makes my figures look better than paying 50 percent more for the same model."

I exaggerate, but not by much.

We know that GW folks frequented Portent and they will probably drop in here as well. They should.

The thing of it is, none of Trenchie's criticisms are invalid. He may repeat them too often, but it's not like GW is paying attention anyway.

My feeling of it is, when they stop screwing up, he'll stop carping at them.

Cloudscape_online
23-06-2005, 17:41
Ok stop making personal arguments, people. This thread is gonna get closed any minute if you carry on like this.

Discalimer: I am not a mod, so you don't have to listen to me.
Disclaimer: I am not trying to be a mod.
Disclaimer: I am not trying to provoke anything by making this post.
Discalimer: I am not trying to steal Brimstones thunder.

---------------+++++

If GW doesn't want to lose revenue because of its WD publications, it could put up its current WD as a PDF for download at a cost of £3.00, and on the rest of the site it could have articles from WDs' that are 6 months old availible as site content.

Taliesynkp
23-06-2005, 17:54
[QUOTE=Delicious Soy]Somehow I doubt GW sincerely believes this. This is a geek hobby and if theres one thing that has empowered geeks, its the internet. This tend to be only whipped out when someone is suggesting rediculous rules alterations. People would do well to remeber that for every one interesting idea that comes from these boards, 50 inane ones follow in its wake. This is only more truthful when applied to the GW boards, Stealth Marines anyone?
[QUOTE]

If they don't believe it why have they repeated it so many times? Everyone from the CEO down to the manager of the smallest game store has said, "We don't care about the internet, it's just a small bunch of disgruntled ex-customers." and "Only a small percentage of our customers have access to the web." I've heard variations of these statements hundreds of times. If you are internet savvy most of them are still available somewhere (on the web :D )


Taliesin

Taliesynkp
23-06-2005, 18:09
It is the Vets who remember Rogue Trader, Squats and all the lovely fluff who get fanatical about things. The majority of GWs customers are school kids who's experiences of 40K are mainly at the stores or with their friends. I think that GW knows their market better than we think and that we are not actually their primary target market.


What you say is absolutely true. And the way you say it indicates you don't understand what I was saying anymore than GW does.

Those school kids you see at the local store are on the web. They're on the web at home and at school. They're good at web searches. My grandson builds complex searchs on GOOGLE and he's seven. They get into the game and at that age money means nothing. But their getting jade quicker and leaving the game quicker and the internet is a majort contributing factor as to why.

Taliesynkp
23-06-2005, 18:16
Why am I here if I hate GW?

Probably for the same reason Trenchie is. I think warhammer (circa 3ed) was a flawed but great game. I think GW took a major wrong turn somewhere but is still saveable. I'm hoping that if enough real discussion occurs and has an actual discernable effect on the bottom line GW will respond. It worked once. GW was forced to put out a correction to the DE book.

Actually, at this point I don't think GW can be save I'm just hoping that whoever acquires the IP does a better job after GW goes under.


Taliesin

Freak Ona Leash
23-06-2005, 19:49
Wow, triple post nice. And I hope you have good luck getting GW to notice, even though I may come off as a "apologist" some of my other posts clearly show I am not a "apologist". Constructive criticism is the way to go IMO. Just saying GW is the best corporation in the business is either a seriously underinformed opinion or just someone who cannot bear to see their favorite company bashed. I know GW can improve but I dont hate, like I've said before. And Commissar, I dont believe I have ever made statemens like that. Other people have but like I said, seriously underinformed is the name of the game there. Ergh, sorry if this comes off as somewhat contradictory or hypocritcal, I'm kind of in a rush right no. My point is, just ranting about how bad GW isnt going to work, sending them letters(thats right, pencil and paper letters) is probally better as the vast amount of e-mail sent to GW is usually people saying how cool GW is or how much it sucks. Believe me, their e-mails are probally deleted as soon as it arrives in the inbox. I for one am up for a mass-sending of letters. Enough people sending the same thing to GW that ISN'T bashing them or ranting at them could work. There, so really, dont rant on and on about how much GW needs to be improved without doing something like above letter sending. On the other hand, dont preach about how GW is the best and everyone who says it isnt is a traitor.

GAWD
23-06-2005, 20:20
@Cloudscape: I'm not in any way offended when people criticize and call my ideas into question, as Freak did several posts ago. We should personally confront each other on the board, w/in reasonably civil grounds.

@Freak: As for why I post here, I'll simply add to what CvT and Talie said. At a core level, we still care. Yep, I'd even say Trenchie still cares, even if won't say it. The simple fact of the matter is that things are seriously broken with GW, on a business level and on a gaming level, and for me (us?) to sit idly by, refusing to diagnose the problems we see and (sometimes) offer solutions, would be disservice to everyone (stores, gamers, etc ...). Oh, yeah, and GW detractors are legion; unfortunately for GW, most of those detractors don't even care enough anymore to post here.

About GW's target market ... It's story time ...

I was at the gamestore earlier today when two HS aged kids came in. They were both well dressed and accessorized, sporting nifty sneaks, jewelery, backpacks full o' D&D and Magic. They were not wargamers, but easily fall into the target age demographic you all speak of. I eavesdropped on their conversation as they were browsing the GW games/models. Usually I intervene to tell them how cool playing w/little toys actually can be (depending on my mood, either supporting GW or directing to other, better games --cough--Flames of War--cough--), but this time I wanted to see how they thought through GW on their own. Keep in mind, these kids seemed well off; they drove to the store themselves, no parents around; they're out of school and may have summer jobs--in short they have their own disposable income and tons of free time. The perfect GW customer, as some on this thread and elsewhere have suggested. One of the kids was looking through the models and picked up a chaplain on a bike=$25. He picked up a box of SM=$30. The other boy had see people playing before, so he was able to explain the approximate size of the armies they were using. After a few minutes of crude mathematical calculations, they put down the GW stuff and decided to "stick to Magic ... for ~$5 you can get a pack and have 10% of a deck, especially when stores give out Lands." It was amazing. They actually think like we do. They compared the prices of basic units necessary to play in the current gaming community (~1500-2000pts worth of models for 40k vs. ~60 cards for magic). Then, they decided not buy GW, eventhough they had the money to start armies. Take of this little tale what you will, but if GW thinks kids like these are it's target market, then something's amiss.

Commissar von Toussaint
23-06-2005, 20:50
Freak you misunderstand me.

I enjoy playing some of GW's games, particularly 2nd edition 40k. Part of the reason I come here is to let more people know about how cool that version is and that a game doesn't have to be "current" to be good.

I point out GW's flaws because they are obvious - and easily fixed. GW doesn't have to listen, but perhaps other companies will, or other people thinking of starting their own companies (like me ;) ).

Freak Ona Leash
23-06-2005, 21:20
Oh. My bad then. And I hope you do start a company. The more competition aimed at GW the better. I know some websites and people who could do design sketches of models for you.

Delicious Soy
23-06-2005, 23:42
I have to admit that your description of GW customers sound far more like the Veterans you get here on Warseer than the "average" customer. When I go into GW (which is not very often these days), the average customer is about 10 years younger than me.

It is the Vets who remember Rogue Trader, Squats and all the lovely fluff who get fanatical about things. The majority of GWs customers are school kids who's experiences of 40K are mainly at the stores or with their friends. I think that GW knows their market better than we think and that we are not actually their primary target market.Well sort of. What I meant was that on one hand, GW has a legion of guys saying, "I remember when GW did some really cool stuff, if we could combine that with the new stuff they've introduced, we'd have some seriously killer games systems." OTOH they have a bunch of n00bs who are at the same stage us veterans were when we started, "OMFG! Bloodthirsters roolozorz! LOLOLOL!11!!!" Well, you get the idea :p. Unfortunately, GW have enginered a forum (which they not doubt monitor far more than say us or Dakka) where there is no opportunity for people to form a community. Instead, each post is like a n00b has made it and it allows only very few posters to develop any sense of being a leader due to their excellent posting (or excellent ability to rack up a postcount :p).

Now maybe this was intentional ie, giving everyone an equal voice, but really, it just degenerated into mindless banter as no community could form (topics are strictly regulated, and I'm not just talking about price threads) and the level of discussion is often brought down to a very low level, nothing really productive comes out, hence the low opinion of those on the internet, basically a self fufilling prophesy.

Perhaps I should rephrase, Gw has two markets, the high level 'burst' spending of newcomers (which seems to be where GW has staked everything) and the low level survivors, who would spend more if they felt there was any reward for sticking with GW instead of finding other means.


If they don't believe it why have they repeated it so many times? Everyone from the CEO down to the manager of the smallest game store has said, "We don't care about the internet, it's just a small bunch of disgruntled ex-customers." and "Only a small percentage of our customers have access to the web." I've heard variations of these statements hundreds of times. If you are internet savvy most of them are still available somewhere (on the web :D)Well I sort of answered this in my post, but if you look a the GW boards (I recommend taking proper precautions beforehand, like tranquilisers :p) I can see where their low opinion of internet users comes from. OTOH look at the development thank yous in WD for codecies. NEVER have I seen the GW boards mentioned, but others, specifically Bolter & Chainsword and in the case of the DE revision Druchii.net hace been noted as providing assistance and/or inspiration for elements of the rules. In the case of the DE revision, if GW was is so uncaring about internet opinion, why did the DE ever get revised? It was an almost entirely internet based action.

Like I said previously, statements to the effect of "The internet represents a minority of GW customer base" are only whipped out as rationalisations, probably when they see the large wake of bad press they generate, or when someone explicitly states something along the lines of "Everyone on the board agrees that this & this should be done!" Given some of the things put forward by people on the net, I'd say its a good thing that they aren't always subject to our whims. Or at least whoever thought up Stealth Marines.

Trench_Raider
24-06-2005, 06:27
Several points:

Delicious Soy- You forgot the most important aspect of the official GW boards that causes them to be (rightfully) viewed as a joke. They are extremely heavilly censored so that all disent from the "company line" is quickly muted. Question Gw's decisions on ANYTHING, pring up prices at all, or even mention the word "Squats" and you are shut down so fast it will make your head spin. if you are not a brain-dead sycophant or a drooling fan-boy, you can't exist on the GW boards for any length of time. These policies make the concept of customer feedback into a bad joke.

GAWD- Of course I care. Although I play more and more historical games these day, I still enjoy the occasional 40k or WFB game. Furthermore as i have stated in the past, the historical rules sets put out by GW are the best thing the company currently makes.
The difference between me and others who critisize Gw is that I feel the parent company as it stands right now is beyond saving and the whole industry would be better off if they went bankrupt. Tear it down and start afresh. thus I'm on board for anything negative that happens to GW.
God...I sound like a damned anarchist when I say things like that, don't I? :eek:

Freek- How long have you been a GW customer? Not long I would bet. How many back to back price increases have you put up with? Have you ever caught GW in an outright lie or three? Have you ever had a unit or whole army you play dropped from the game system without warning? Have you ever bought a new book for a game and within three months found that the new purchase was obsolete? How many times have you had to buy new figures because GW lowered the points costs of everything to increase army sizes and with it sales? How many times has your intelligence been insulted by blathering about a non-existant "GW hobby" and otherwise pretending they are the center of the wargaming world? How many horror stories have you heard regarding GW's legal department harrassing fan sites and even web boards like this? How many young players have you seen vicitmized by GW's "hard sell" sales tactics? How many times have you had to retool an army and buy all new books because of Gw's "forced obsolesense" policy?

I could go on and on, but these are enough for the moment. I (and many others) have experienced all of these things over the years. This is why I have the attitudes I do toward GW. I went from a happy and loyal customer to someone who would like nothing better than see their finantial ruin......and they caused it.

"Trench Raider"

Freak Ona Leash
24-06-2005, 12:45
Your right Trenchie, I havent been a GW customer for long. Only about 3 years, which compared to others is no time at all. I know much of my models come from my brother, who dropped out of playing GW games because of, and I quote, GW being a bunch of money-whores. Most of the things you have stated I have not witnessed, except for price rises :rolleyes: Damn, those get annoying after the first dozen times :mad: I still play6 GW games because I think they are the best game systems I've seen. I might play Warmachine but my local store doesnt carry much of their stuff and I would play SST but Mongoose charges almost as much as GW for their craptastic models. And I cant find the FoW rulebook or army books anywhere :( Oh, and WAB does rock. Hiberno-Norse eat everything :cool:

Delicious Soy
24-06-2005, 15:05
Delicious Soy- You forgot the most important aspect of the official GW boards that causes them to be (rightfully) viewed as a joke. They are extremely heavilly censored so that all disent from the "company line" is quickly muted. Question Gw's decisions on ANYTHING, pring up prices at all, or even mention the word "Squats" and you are shut down so fast it will make your head spin. if you are not a brain-dead sycophant or a drooling fan-boy, you can't exist on the GW boards for any length of time. These policies make the concept of customer feedback into a bad joke. Yeah I kinda onyl touched on it didn't I? But the other half of the problem is the posters there. I was there before they shut down price threads and Squats threads, and besides censoring GW incompetence and poor development, the unintelligent, random commentary was mind bendingly idiotic. If they fostered more of a community atmosphere, then maybe GW might get something out of their own forum. ATM it seems that its used as a corral to prevent ***** posters spamming other boards, you know, the ones that GW get something from.

I would love it if the GW forums allowed us to exchange ideas with developers and such, not specifics but just discussing what direction we want to see the hobby to go in, and what will encourage a creative environment. I doubt this would ever happen though because it seems far too much power resides on the corporate side.

Trench_Raider
24-06-2005, 15:45
Yeah, you have to wonder were all the kiddies, mindless idiots, and frothing fanboys that post on the GW forums come from. I'm certainly not going to disagree that the overall lower quality of the posters there does cause much of their problems.

I too was there before they really clamped down. I was posting on the USENET group RGMW at the time and like most regulars there I registered the first week it was open. Although you saw some anti-GW opinons (I think mostly from RGMW regulars, one of whom was banned quickly for threatening to "kick Gav's ass) I was amazed at the low quality of the overall membership from day one. However the later "Big Brother" policy simply made it completely irrelevant.

Of course I'm sure those folks wonder were all the bitter vets at forums like here and Dakka (especially Dakka, when I was over at that place I felt like I was among a bunch of like-minded individuals were it came to GW caused cynicism) come from as well! :D

"Trench Raider"

Commissar von Toussaint
24-06-2005, 16:15
It is kind of amazing to look at how GW reacts to feedback. They don't really seem to want any.

If you don't like they're games, if you have complaints, why something must be wrong with you.

Regarding the Dark Elves fix, I often wonder if there wasn't something more to it than just feedback and internet pressure. I seriously think it was also an internal power play. Redoing the army list probably made someone look really, really bad.

GW seems like just that kind of a Byzantine organization at this point. I fully expect that game rules, release dates and everything else are fodder for the infighting that goes on.

Trench_Raider
24-06-2005, 19:31
If you don't like they're games, if you have complaints, why something must be wrong with you.

Yeah, you will recall Paul "Fat Bloke" Sawyer's comment to a customer who had negative comments during a games day Q&A:
"You are in the wrong hobby!"
I've encountered Mr. Sawyer on the Flames of Forums and it's hard to stay polite in replying to the man after hearing about that one. (that being said, it is nice to see a GW staffer playing another company's products....one would figure that would be GW's version of heresy!)

"Trench Raider"

JAFO
25-06-2005, 03:25
I have no doubt that GW makes extensive use of the net. But IMHO they use it as not much more than a source of information for marketing.
Ever heard the term 'lurker" If GW doesnt have at least two lurkers for every gaming forum on the net then they are way behind in the field of 'industrial espionage'
If you will recall, just before the Tau hit the scene, there was a huge upsurge in 'What we need is a new race' threads. And when the cries for an updated Eldar codex threatned to overwhelm a lot of the forums, the DE made their appearance, and everything Eldar quieted down for awhile.
A corporation as huge as GW is not run by idiots.
Any person that has dealt with large businesses will tell you. There are two lines of communication. The official line and the grapevine. And a smart leader/excutive will pay attention to the official line but base the majority of their decisions on the grapevine. The grapevine is where people will more than likely speak the truth rather than what they think the boss wants to hear.
The internet is nothing more than GW's own personal 'grapevine'
I am by no means a fan of GW, but I still buy the occasional mini or paint from them, and will continue to do so for as long as it suits my needs. Not one of my GW armies is 100% GW.
I am an adult consumer. I buy what I like when I like and where I can get the best deal.

Etienne de Beaugard
25-06-2005, 04:13
Quite frankly, I'm glad GW hasn't tried to dominate the WH web presence. If they wanted to, they could effectively squash most of the fan-forums, forcing us onto their site. Instead, they seem happy to have their web-based-billboard. That they have added FAQ's and OOP unit rules from White Dwarf to the site is a nice touch.

As for the other stuff they could do...I'd rather get painting tips, army design suggestions, and rules analysis from a community like this one, where the spectre of marketing driven advice is significantly reduced.

@Trenchie - While I agree with almost all the complaints you have against GW, I don't think a total meltdown of GW will really improve things in the long run. Every one of the gaming companies that has grown to mass market proportions suffers from many of the same problems GW does. T$R had a horrible reputation right before its demise. White Wolf in many ways still defines branding and semi-monopolistic practices. The WotC stores, tournies, etc. that spawned from the growth of M:tG left an equally bad taste in many people's mouths.

GW is too large and the Warhammer brand too potent to die completely. Likely, an acquisition would occur, with a re-invention of the brand that would result in whole armies needing replacement instead of whole units.

Personnally, I would be happy if GW got a better management team, who understood the benefits of being a big fish in the ocean, rather than the only fish in a pond.

TenTailedCat
25-06-2005, 04:19
I don't hink GW could squash fan boards like this - they have no rights over people discussing their products. Even if they do bitch every now and then about people quoting articles from WD or things from the Codexs'.

Etienne de Beaugard
25-06-2005, 04:34
I don't hink GW could squash fan boards like this - they have no rights over people discussing their products. Even if they do bitch every now and then about people quoting articles from WD or things from the Codexs'.

Don't believe it for a minute. While you have a right to free speech, when a suit is brought, you need the aid of a lawyer to effectively defend that right. The administrators of most fan sites lack the resouces to enter extended legal proceedings.

Delicious Soy
25-06-2005, 14:44
Yes but until governments pass laws that allow them to prosecute, the best a lawyer can do is bluff. They actually need to charge a host with something, lawyers aren't exactly magic items on the corporation list.

@JAFO: I wish that thy would listen to the grapevine, but the way I've seen GW deal with most people on the internet is to ignore the more articulate and broad postings and target minor details, avoiding discusions on the implications for the game system itself.

mostholycerebus
25-06-2005, 22:33
Don't believe it for a minute. While you have a right to free speech, when a suit is brought, you need the aid of a lawyer to effectively defend that right. The administrators of most fan sites lack the resouces to enter extended legal proceedings.

One thing the internet is good at is fighting back. Sure, they might close a dozen forums and sites. But then one guy will get a bug up his ass, see a good lawyer, get donations from supporters, and see GW in court plus countersuit. Like soy mentioned, most of these suits are bluffs that get 90% of people to STFU.

A great example is Maddox, who has the balls and determination to speak his opinion on a variety of topics that take on corps directly. There are tons of other examples, but the first step is having the will to carry through and not submit to intimidation.