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The Song of Spears
29-08-2006, 19:41
I have been wanting to play WHFB for a time, but i couldn't afford a whole new army. Well I was at a gamestore going out of business and they offered all GW stuff at 40% off, so i indulged myself and bought the last remenants of DE they had as this is the army i want to play.

I actually have NO idea how they play, what their strengths are, weaknesses, etc.

So i was wondering if anyone here would care to help me get started on my way to 1500 points of DE...

What should i buy/use in lists of preferably 1000/1500 points (give or take a few points)?

TheWarSmith
29-08-2006, 20:11
For the basics, you'll want a strong core of dark elf warriors.

you can make them shooty or combat. I'd suggest 1-2 units of 20 spearmen and 2 units of 10 crossbowmen. Toss in 2 units of 5 darkriders, then some executioners, 2 Repeater bolt throwers, 1-2 sorcerers and a noble, and you're on your way.

You can also put in some cold one knights if you have them.

I'm sending you a PM shortly about something.

The Song of Spears
29-08-2006, 20:20
I noticed you had no harpies in that list... in that sale i had picked up some harpies, what are everyones thoughts on them?

What about Black Guard? Or Assassins?

Mephistofeles
29-08-2006, 21:08
Assassins are really nasty if you use them to take out characters or warmachines, but they are also really expensive (Points-wise) so they are a bit of a gamble.

Harpies seems quite good to hunt down skirmishers and warhmachines, but maybe a bit overpriced? (Can't remember their points-cost)

The Song of Spears
29-08-2006, 21:17
I have played a lot of 40k and jump infantry (anything that can move over terrain 12") always works well for me. But i have no idea how harpies work, and if they are worth the points or not.

The assassin ideas sounds familiar, how resiliant are they? If i put one out there, will he just get shot/hacked to death all the time?

DirtJumper
30-08-2006, 02:34
Harpies get to move 20" as long as they aren't starting/ending their move in difficult terrain. (Tose are the rules for flying units in fantasy) Black Guard can be nasty with Eternal Hatred (they get to re-roll to hit all the time) as well as Halberds (+1 str), but are an elite infantry unit, so like all the others, they are pricey. Dark Riders are an absolute must, and I would also strongly recommend Cold One Charriots, because point for point the pack even more punch than the Knights. Likewise, Reaper Bolt Throwers and Crossbowmen are also a must, and don't forget when you're making your list that the DE have been revised, and you can find the changes in the Warhammer Chronicles section of the GW website. Good luck with the DE, they are a true tacticians army, and will take a lot of practice to get used to, especially if you're just getting in to fantasy, but they can be a very good army in the hands of a good player.

sigur
30-08-2006, 02:49
In my experience, DE Warriors are a great unit, be it shooty or blocked infantry. Don't forget that shooty warriors still are a viable combat unit with this 4+ save in close combat (always equip them with shields).

Harpies are very fast but fragile (not only because of their lack of armour save and mediocre T; the thing that hurts them most is their low Ld which can not be improvedby having the general around). Use them in their primary role (light cav-/warmachine-/mage-hunters) and they will shine; if you send them out against any combat unit, they're toast.

Assassins generally are considered quite a points sink; they might look good on the paper at the first glance but they die really easily and I can't imagine them making that much damage to make them worth the points. The problem is that there's nothing in the armoury or runes of Khaine list that makes them enough of a killer unit. And using them by themselves as magehunters or the like....meh. DE have many other units to fill that gap (Harpies, Shades, Dark Riders).

Cold One Chariots are very cool, as are Cold One Knights; which one of these units you want to use is up to you and your playing style. Chariots are great to support infantry units while COK tend to work better in cavalry forces.

Reaper Bolt Throwers are almost mandatory for beginners (of which I also am one); they typically kill quite some stuff and enemy commanders tend to fear them because it's about the only unit in the army that is gonna do damage even if everything else goes wrong.

If you want really good advise on playing DE, have a look at druchii.net (www.druchii.net) although the people there seem to be quite high-level in gaming experience and skill and play at tournaments often. They have great articles on how to start DE armies there though as well as lots and lots of other material.

Winning with DE might be quite a chellenge, especially when you're up against the "stronger" armies but it's so terribly satisfying when your plan works out.;)

TheWarSmith
30-08-2006, 04:27
something to note, unless this changed in 7th, is that flyers can't fly through forests, at all.

Mephistofeles
30-08-2006, 07:05
Don't worry about your assassins getting shot to pieces, they can't.

When you start the game, you write down on a little secret note in which of your units the assassin is "hiding", and then don't tell your opponent or place it on the board. Then whenever you want to in the game, you can show your assassin, and place him on the board in that unit. Usually a nasty surprise.

The Song of Spears
30-08-2006, 14:40
Don't worry about your assassins getting shot to pieces, they can't.

When you start the game, you write down on a little secret note in which of your units the assassin is "hiding", and then don't tell your opponent or place it on the board. Then whenever you want to in the game, you can show your assassin, and place him on the board in that unit. Usually a nasty surprise.


Well with that said Assassins don't sound too bad.

Also i really like what i have heard about harpies, a highly mobile unit that can take out light stuff or warmachines is always good.


In 40k DE are referred to as Paper Tigers. They can dish out as much punishment as any force, but they can't take much. The one thing that kept them alive was their speed. They were able to deploy and move very very fast. If you set up right, you could pick and choose your fights at will, as some have said, "dismantle' the enemy army.

Is this true for DE of fantasy? Is the army in general fast? or do the warriors foot slog it at 6" a turn?

Is there a particular general that is favoured here for DE?

Venkh
30-08-2006, 15:04
In 40k DE are referred to as Paper Tigers. They can dish out as much punishment as any force, but they can't take much. The one thing that kept them alive was their speed. They were able to deploy and move very very fast. If you set up right, you could pick and choose your fights at will, as some have said, "dismantle' the enemy army.

Is this true for DE of fantasy? Is the army in general fast? or do the warriors foot slog it at 6" a turn?

Dark elves are fast (base movement 5) and fairly maneoverable. But they arent the fastest or the most maneoverable. There are plenty of armies that will outclass you in that element of the game. Yes, you can play an all dark rider force but that really for nutters.

Dark elves are really a solid "all arms" force with excellent leadership and solid combat skills. You can field just about any type of force with reasonable success but dont expect any point and click routes to win.

My 2000 point force consists of 2 basic teams, each consisting of:

1 Unit of Dark riders - These annoy the enemy and set up charges for my...
1 unit of Warriors - cheap CR in an elite army yes please! They are ably supported by my...
1 Chariot - Who adds puch when my warriors charge and gives enemy units something to think about when approaching within 14"

My 2 teams are supported by harpies and a steed mounted noble. They hunt warmachines/mages and are sometimes aided by one of my dark rider units

Firepower comes from my reapers and i usually field 2 sorceresses for magic offence/defence.

After buying this lot i will usually have room for an elite infantry unit or some cold one knights.

Bear in mind that this is only one possible army type, one of the best things about playing dark elves is finding other players who play an equally viable but completely different list from yours.

One final thing though, dont expect easy victories, dark elves are a hard army to use. Particularly given that the army book is one of the oldest in print (you will find codex creep just as much an issue as in 40k)

Rae'arc
30-08-2006, 15:07
Hmmm I think you need some time alone with the new rule book for 7th fantasy. Yeah I play Dark Eldar as well as Dark Elves but I enjoy fantasy immesurably better.

But yeah, paper tigers, I like that and it is very true for DE in both fantasy and 40K.

You chose a hard army to start with but it's cool.

I don't really know where to start but I'll just reply to the others.
Assassins are really cool but unfortunately a points sink. They just become really hard to justify in the end for the character slot as well the heavy points cost.
Yeah harpies are good, sometimes the special slot is better off used elsewhere, but generally you'll find a use for them... just don't take them against undead.
Cold one knights and witch elves are my favourite units. They are the punch of the army in a big way. See the section on 'poison' in the rules. You'll love it. Witch elves however are the epitome of your 'paper tigers'
RBT's.. classic, pick what you don't like in their army and get rid of it. Simple.


something to note, unless this changed in 7th, is that flyers can't fly through forests, at all.

Since when can't you fly OVER forests? Really? Can you quote this rule?

The Song of Spears
30-08-2006, 16:21
Some people have mentiond that the DE are indeed tough to use. Is this becasue they die easily?

What is the bane of DE?

Do they fall easily to missile fire or CC or both?

The DE of 40k basically are a CC army, supported by a modest shooty squad/transport. Is it the same with the DE of Fantasy?

TheWarSmith
30-08-2006, 16:27
perhaps i have YET another rule wrong; if so I apologize

DE in fantasy work similar to that of 40k. They have their devoted shooting and close combat troops, but they get torn to shreds if they undergo heavy firepower.

Elves have one of the best warmachines in the game, the repeater bolt thrower. It's the highest BS crew, and it has 2 firing modes(S6 rank penetrator, no AS, d3 wounds) or 6 S4 -2 save shots and a 48" range without potential for misfires, which are the bane of dwarves.

Venkh
31-08-2006, 15:55
You can play an all shooty/magic dark elf list and it can be hideous against some opponents but weak against others.

Dark elves dont have a main strength, they have a balanced army list with better than average choices available in most areas so...


They have good shooting, but not as good as Empire or Dwarfs
They have good heavy cavalry but not as good as Chaos or Brettonians
They are fast and maneoverable but not as fast and maneoverable as wood elves
They have loads of fear/terror causing stuff, but not as scary as Vampire Counts or Khemri


A dark elf army can really be good at anything, however you pay a premium for your elite units so you need to use them well to succeed.

One thing dark elves do really well in is Elite infantry, however, you wont find many players quaking in their boots about facing such units on the tabletop. Elite infantry are a bit of a problem category in the current game.

Despite being a slighly difficult army to use they are great fun and rewarding to play. In addition they look great on the tabletop having one of the best looking miniature ranges in the game.

The Song of Spears
31-08-2006, 16:30
One thing dark elves do really well in is Elite infantry, however, you wont find many players quaking in their boots about facing such units on the tabletop. Elite infantry are a bit of a problem category in the current game.

Despite being a slighly difficult army to use they are great fun and rewarding to play. In addition they look great on the tabletop having one of the best looking miniature ranges in the game.

What do you mean by 'problem category'?

I think, if it's possible, due to the beautiful range of minis it has to offer, i would like to find a use for every unit, I understand sometimes due to points I will have to leave some units out some games, but maybe i could switch them back in later and bench some other unit for a time.

Are there any special wargear(still called this in fantasy?) or spells or some such that you guys reccomend/hate?

tenpole
03-09-2006, 01:21
About the assassin. I also think they are a bit pricey and as your assassin makes his appearance later replacing one of your fielded units you would loose all those points for that particular unit. So you are not going to put him with the cold ones, er not the crossbowmen, so its going to be the warriors. Unless I misunderstood the rule in which case correct me.

Does this make sense, sorry its late as I typing this 02:25 in the morning.

tenpole
03-09-2006, 01:22
Harpies look cool so include them in yoy force. Use them to flush out fanatics.

sulla
03-09-2006, 02:21
My take on my DE is that they are a bit of a gamblers army. They are harder hitting than HE but more risky to use due to stupidity,frenzy, lower leadership of flyers etc.

The safest units in the list (like the HE list) are the cavalry, flying monsters and artillery. The riskiest are all the infantry, harpies and hydrae.
-infantry because they are fairly vulnerable to shooting/magic and generally can't withstand a cav charge (which also tends to neuter assassins).
-harpies because they are generally gone once they have to take a Ld test and often struggle to win combats against even war machine crews.
-Hydrae because they are the worst large monster in the game due to laclustre cc punch, average Ld, high cost and taking up valuable 'rare' slots in you list.

So, when making your list try to limit your 'risky' units. By all means take a couple, but don't give up on DE just because your gorgeous executioners with assassin keep getting run down in the 2nd turn by 150pts worth of empire knights...:rolleyes:

Sulla

Voltaire
03-09-2006, 11:39
The Dark Elves are one of the 'surgeons knives' of Fantasy. This genre of army also includes the High Elves and Khemri. You need to know every one of your strengths and weakness', and your enemies, inside out before you engage your opponent. When you do engage them, you need to be able to exploit their weakness while trying to keep your own to a minimum. This is no easy feat with a T3 army because a lot of enemies will be insta-killing you.

The Dark Elves greatest strength is how 'Middle of the Road' they can be. A well balanced Dark Elf force will be able to participate in every phase, while not dominating it. This sort of diversity means that the enemy is going to need to be able to match you in every phase and for most armies, that is a physical impossibility, even for tournament armies. You need to press your advantage in the phases your enemy doesn't specialise in to be a complete success.

Having once considered playing Dark Elves, I have done some reading and concluded that the following are what I consider to be a necessity for a 'balanced' army that competes in each phase;


Dark Riders - Their manouverablity and shooting harasses any enemy.
Cold One Chariots - 2 for 1 Special Slot is unmissable and they are quite beastly in combat, especially considering the Cold Ones cause Fear
Executioners/Black Guard - Elite heavily armoured infantry that can go toe to toe with any other elite and emrge victorious
Repeater Bolt Throwers - To compete in the shooting phase and scare big targets
A Sorceress - Dark Elf magic is tactically amazing
Warriors - Cheap, reliable infantry


Assassins are good, but tend to die quickly. I would much prefer to have a BSB, guarenting you won't run away. The combining of Banner power in the new edition means you have even less chance of losing important combats.

Heh. That concludes my two pence worth.

DeathlessDraich
03-09-2006, 12:59
'Middle of the Road' is a pertinent and accurate descriptor of Dark Elves.
I would also add it's Not an army for beginners but if you persist you'll learn fast and be better off than most beginners.
Have you tried www.druchii.net/

Whichever route you choose do not forget the Draich! :D

Zethal
04-09-2006, 06:18
Middle of the road is not at all how i would describe the Druchii.
Few armies are as mobile, pretty much just the all flying ones, and possibly TK. However TK can't flee, and niether can Wood elves. DE specialize in baiting. I believe this puts them in a catergory of more mobile then WE and about on par with TK.
Their shooting armies can do alright if you go fully defensive however range 24 hurts a bit. Lots of people really like the Reapers however since i dont think Druchii can support them enough, unlike the HE, they just are not worth the points. For example you can get a few goblin spear chuckas for the price of one reaper and they are atleast as effective as the Reaper.
While they don't cause as much fear as the undead, they can get more terror then anyone other army and more monsters at that. They are the only list that can get a US5 Flying monster w/o a lord choice i believe.

I believe the need to specialize in one aspect of the game to win, and to vary the list to much across of the different phases of the game will make the list pretty weak. Since DE are expensive don't get to do enough damage on any phase to win the game if the points are spread to thin.

Just about every DE general will tell you the dark riders are generally the most useful unit in the list. They are the best fast cav in the game, for a fairly good price. As mentioned go check out Druchii.net it is a great site.

One of the greatest assets to the DE is the shear number of attacks, creating a army with atleast 2 attacks per model is easy, and the RXB can be devastating, or useless. While these attacks are fairly weak the cauldron of blood is pretty much a global str boost which really makes all of these attacks threanting.

The assassin is widely considered inefficient for the points, however he is still a fun model to use and very suprising for your opponent when he does pop up because so few will use one.

Lots of people swear by the Reapers Bolt throwers. They are nice imo do not go well with the speed of the army, and would rather have some more quick units or get my knight killers from a Manticore or items on my general.

DE magic is very expensive and fairly weak, Chillwind and dominion are great control, but for the price to get them they really dont offer enough, and with the small range of most of the spells in the Dark list they take a bit of a blow in 7th edition.

The Song of Spears
04-09-2006, 17:30
Well, like the DE of 40k, i was hoping to capitalize on their speed. Speed of movement and speed in CC (where most of the time DE get to got first)

The DE have units of wyches who are really great in CC if they get the assault, assuming they don't assault a 30+ unit size squad they will tear through elite units and small troops with 10 wyches getting 30 attacks and at the same time -1 attacks from all enemies in CC. Then there are wych drugs on top pf that to help with str or attacks or other stuff... I assume the DE of fantasty have some similar sqauads?

How do you get models across the baord in WHFB? Is there such thing as transports? Teleporting?

DeathlessDraich
04-09-2006, 18:25
Skaven skitterleap is the best teleport. WE have a teleporting magic item and HE magic has something similar.

Zethal
04-09-2006, 23:10
One of the biggest differences between 40k and fantasy is movement. Transports dont exsist, neither the ability to teleport. Movement is a lot more careful and tactical then 40k.

40k is about getting into combat as quick as possible. Positioning takes second seat to getting there. While in Fantasy poistion is everything, Baiting, forcing charges, march blocking, setting up flanks and more are all important aspects of movement in fantasy and have no real relation to movement in 40k, 7th edition makes position even more impotant then before with the changes to fleeing and panic tests and the crossfire rule.

The devastation 1 unit can cause in 40k is signigicantly higher then in fantasy. For example 1 unit of orks can just about kill an entire Tau army if it makes it there. Not so much in fantasy?

It seems you might have seen a game of fantasy be played. It is a very different game then 40k. You should probably just go down to a gaming store and watch a few games and try to use someone else army first to get familiar before you start purchasing to much.

The Song of Spears
05-09-2006, 14:34
One of the biggest differences between 40k and fantasy is movement. Transports dont exsist, neither the ability to teleport. Movement is a lot more careful and tactical then 40k.

40k is about getting into combat as quick as possible. Positioning takes second seat to getting there. While in Fantasy poistion is everything, Baiting, forcing charges, march blocking, setting up flanks and more are all important aspects of movement in fantasy and have no real relation to movement in 40k, 7th edition makes position even more impotant then before with the changes to fleeing and panic tests and the crossfire rule.

The devastation 1 unit can cause in 40k is signigicantly higher then in fantasy. For example 1 unit of orks can just about kill an entire Tau army if it makes it there. Not so much in fantasy?

It seems you might have seen a game of fantasy be played. It is a very different game then 40k. You should probably just go down to a gaming store and watch a few games and try to use someone else army first to get familiar before you start purchasing to much.

sage advice, and it does make sense.

I just grabbed 500 points of tyranids and started to learn to play 40k by just playing, i was thinking i could skip that step when starting a fantasy army due to my 40k knowledge, but it sounds like that isn't true.

Either way i will enjoy painting the DE i got and i hope to learn to play them well. thanks all for the advice, i will check out the druchii site and see waht it has to say too.

cheers!

druchii
06-09-2006, 06:47
Alot of people have made awesome posts so far, and I'll try not to repeat anything.

Spearmen are alot better than people make them out to be.

I've always found large units of infantry to be both tactically and visually pleasing. The great thing about spearmen is their ability to fight with two ranks, instead of one. Sometime try making a unit of spearmen 24 strong. Arrayed in a 6x4 formation. 13 attacks(with a champion) potentially coming back at you will stop all but the most determined opponents from charging, or atleast give them pause.

As said before DE will really test your guile.

While other armies are a LOT more forgiving(chaos, Brets, for example) the DE are much like the DE of 40k, where a mistake, or two, will cost you the game.

Especially similar is the need to pick on certain units. See something that scares you? Kill it. While my Bretonnian army can afford to hit multiple units at once, and hope the kills rack up, a DE army will be looking to knock a unit or two out in a decisive combat phase.

Maximising this need is, IMO, paramount to making DE work. Basic "you charge this unit, I'll charge you in the flank with THIS unit" tactics will get you started, as will baiting charges(IE "charge this unit, and it'll run away, and then you'll get charged by THIS unit!).

The "this" units of the army usually fall to the basic spear-toting infantry, and dark riders.
While the "THIS" units tend to be coldone knights, chariots or other "elite" infantry (like executioners and black guard!).


I also see a TON of "shooty" "flighty" DE lists. That is alot of lists with darkriders, chariots, RBX-men, and sorcs. I'd applaud a player if he had a primarily infantry army, with sharp highlights of elite units (executioners, black guard, chariots, etc.)

hope this helps, just a bit.
d

The Song of Spears
06-09-2006, 14:35
I also see a TON of "shooty" "flighty" DE lists. That is alot of lists with darkriders, chariots, RBX-men, and sorcs. I'd applaud a player if he had a primarily infantry army, with sharp highlights of elite units (executioners, black guard, chariots, etc.)

hope this helps, just a bit.
d

Well, as it stands i am buying DE because of how they look, and nothing says fantasy army better than lots of rank and file troops! And honestly, i will prolly buy at least 1 of every unit available over time. Maybe mix in a few Reaper minis where the GW ones don't quite suit me. But by the time i am done, it will be a true army.

That's not to say i will field all this from day one, i just can't afford all that yet. So i was looking for a goor starting place to work my way towards approx 1500 points. After that i will fill out the ranks and try to 'fluff' the army as much as possible.

Camrion
07-09-2006, 03:08
Some of my most efficient dark elf units are..

Cold One Knights: I run this as a hammer unit with a noble wielding Crimson Death in them. Usually about 8 total strong with a Banner of Murder. Charge potential of 20". Very hard-hitting. I also know where my points are on the table, so while I'm diverting my opponent and harassing him with skirmishers and Dark Riders. I know exactly what to not let him hit. Very valuable.

10 Dark Elf Warriors with Repeater Crossbows. I simply do not leave home without this unit and I typically play fighty lists. Against some armies they sit on a hill, against others they become a bait unit that can shoot down the enemy's fast-cav or skirmishers.

Assassins: I love them and intend to field them in every Dark Elf list that can include them from here on. Flexibility is the key here. If your Shades got a particularly good scout position up the table, you scout your assassin in with them and all of a sudden you have a very dangerous combination very close to your enemy's lines. Or you can hide him with a unit of common warriors and give an overzealous opponent an easy charge, only to have the assassin pop out and mow down his front line or ice his character.

After that, I think the most generics of builds are 2x Reaper Bolt Throwers, 1 or 2 units of Shades or Harpies (Your preference, I like Shades for shooting and to give a scouting assassin a meat shield) and 2 units of dark riders. After that it's really up to the player.

Camrion

The Song of Spears
07-09-2006, 14:46
How many guys can an assassn be expected to mow down? Does he have a weapon that denies saves or the like?

Camrion
07-09-2006, 17:56
An Assassin with Manbane, additional hand weapon and Hand of Khaine is swinging 5 times at WS 9, I10 (always first upon revealing) and S +1 over the enemy's toughness, to a maximum of 6. So against something T4: Your assassin is swinging at S5.

Camrion

The Song of Spears
07-09-2006, 19:02
An Assassin with Manbane, additional hand weapon and Hand of Khaine is swinging 5 times at WS 9, I10 (always first upon revealing) and S +1 over the enemy's toughness, to a maximum of 6. So against something T4: Your assassin is swinging at S5.

Camrion



That's AWSOME!!! why won't more people use him with those stats? I mean what a hell of a suprise!!

Camrion
08-09-2006, 00:38
He costs 179 pts =)

Assassins are very viable, sneaky options. You can sometimes get away without wielding a noble or highborn for a general with Dark Elves if you minimize your stupidity units. Cold One Knights have Leadership 9 anyways.. musicians have you rallying at leadership 9 in most units. I do avoid Chariots in my armies though, (To be honest, they just seem too slow to keep up with my elves).

Assassin + Sorceress is a favorite pairing at games of about 1500-1999

Camrion

General Veers
08-09-2006, 01:51
Druchii.net is a great resource and good community...Dark Elves are beautiful models. The way models looks is much more important to me than how an army plays. That doesn't mean I won't keep how they played for me a secret.

I've played Dark Eldar in 40k and Dark Elves in WFB. The Dark Elves I've played since 4th edition into 6th edition. Heck, I liked the new models so much I sold off my old 4th edition models to pay for the 6th edition models. But I digress...

As someone who's played both armies in both game systems and done well with them both, I will boldly claim:

They. are. not. the. same.

I played a very fast, shooty but kick your ass Dark Eldar in 40k. I could make mince meat of Space Marines. One has to be very careful when using the army, but no other army out there would give a guaranteed smackdown on the Dark Eldar. Some could do very, very well, like IG and Tau, but not always. It was a lot of fun! :evilgrin:

The Dark Elves in 6th edition Fantasy didn't come close to the same feel, for me, in WFB that the Dark Eldar did in 40k. The Dark Elves are victim to the elite infantry problem and the archer problem in WFB. However the spearmen are a great deal and dark riders used correctly can cause all sorts of problems for your opponents. The Dark Elves don't have a reliable equivilent of the Dark Eldar Ravager with Disentigrators and/or Wyches on Raiders units. You sometimes simply will not be able to kill enough to make a difference in WFB using Dark Elves. That can be true of all armies of course but it's worse for Dark Elves and maybe even moreso for High Elves. Having written that, if you know what you're getting into, eyes wide open, then you can make it interesting and fun.

I was successful using Dark Elves units in teams. So I'd sometimes have:

Missle Teams:
Reaper Bolt Throwers
Unit or two of 16 Dark Elf warriors with repeater crossbows

Combat Teams (manuever teams included to show combo usage):
Witch Elves + Dark Riders
Executioners + Dark Riders
Spearelves + Dark Riders or other spearelves or chariots (always 2)
Lord on Manticore with Gauntlet of Power + Dark Riders
Cold One Knights (if you like stupid) + Dark Riders
Cold One Chariots (again, if you like stupid) + Spearelves

Maneuver Teams:
Dark Riders
Harpies
Lord on Manticore - Used to flank whenever possible. Or charge the Empire Stank which moves it back up to combat team.

The Missle Teams were usually included for fun. The reapers do well but the rxbs usually did not, considering how many T4 or horde armies there are out there. That's a basic math problem in the game design however and I lived with it for the odd game where they did do well.

Combat Teams work well two ways: MSU (Many Small Units) which maximize the number attacks at the expense of rank bonus, note that this also relies on removing the enemies rank bonus whenever possible as well. MSU will be destroyed by horde armies that can keep their flanks from being turned. I've had it done to me and I've done it with O&Gs. Skaven are even better at it since they're just as fast as the DE and usually have as good or better leadership. FLU (Few Large Units) which maximize rank bonus so not to rely on the dice GOD as much. However, FLU is very vulnerable to flank charges.

But that's where the Manuever Teams come in. The Dark Riders are excellent units to bait the enemy (so is a very small unit of spearelves if speed isn't a concern) and to harass your opponent. I fielded them with a musician only. No need for standards or champs, since that increased their cost and they should always be used to fight combats along with DE "combat" units that preferably have a standard. Experienced enemy generals will know these are the threat of a good DE player and will target them first. Avoid using Harpies to bait as their ld is very low and usually aren't reliable. Harpies can work well against warmachines, sometimes. I've had them run from Lizardmen Salamanders (duh) and Dwarfs.

Regarding Stupidity:
Dark Elf armies can be one of the most stupid armies out there! :D

Seriously, nobody can field as stupid an army as Dark Elves. :rolleyes:
If you can't handle the unreliability of certain Dark Elf units, and they do make Orc and Goblins look disciplined, then avoid them at all costs. While I'm at it, I've always considered Orc and Goblins "chaotic" in their behavior but Dark Elves can be simply unreliable. I've always found it odd that people think the O&Gs are the unreliable ones. :eyebrows:

I have to admit the "one two punch" of Cold One Knights to the front and Dark Riders to the side of a dwarf unit, winning the combat and forcing an autobreak is sweeeet. However, it's not a reliable combination.

One of the biggest problems I think is the serious misrepresentation of the Dark Elf army. It's not a tacticians army, it can be a stupid and still is an overpriced army. I'm not kidding now, btw. Beautiful models and it can be rewarding, IF you're not constantly playing against gunlines, Skaven, Chaos and certain O&G armies. Those aren't challenging games, just frustrating on different levels. That could be my jaded, veteran, "seen through the smoke and realize how the game is designed" view however. Just for the record, I didn't/don't just play DE. My Lizardmen, Chaos, Dwarfs and O&G do very well, thank you.

zoggin-eck
08-09-2006, 05:32
make sure you check this out and add it to your army book....

http://us.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/darkelves/gaming/darkelves_revisions/revisions.htm

these changes really do make the dark elves better (doesn't help me though, I still lose all the time! but I can't blame GW on that :p)

(sorry if anybody else has said this already)

General Veers
08-09-2006, 12:06
Yes, the revision is extremely important. It brings the army up from "poorly designed" to "usable without cursing a games designer". The army still doesn't "feel right" when playing them with the revision. But 8 point spearelves are a nice bone thrown to the DE. However the DE are by far the best looking army on the tabletop. :)

Well, maybe my Lizardman army looks as good now too...

Morathi's Darkest Sin
08-09-2006, 12:35
To give you an idea on how I play them, my main 2000pt army at the moment goes something like this.

Hero with mask of Terror and two hand weapons

Sorceress lvl 2 with D/scroll and tome of furion

Sorceress lvl2 with b/staff and p/stone

10 warriors with rxb, s,m and lordling

10 warriors with rxb s. m and lordling

10 Corsairs with s, m and Reaver

6 Dark riders with rxb, s, m and Herald.

20 Witch Elves, with s plus standard of slaughter, m, Hag with witchbrew

10 Executioners with s, m and Draich-master

5 Harpies

War Hydra or 10 Blackguard with Dread banner

2 Reapers

and then a couple of variables depending on what I'm facing.

So far its been very succsessful.



I'm sure some will wonder why i'm taking standards and lordlings in rxb units, but I take them as I like how they look on the field of battle and a number of times that standard has made all the diff for the unit.

The Song of Spears
08-09-2006, 14:54
Thats a very shooty army there (if i am to assume correctly that rxb is for repeater crossbow) Why is it you would take so many when previously people have said they don't do well?

Morathi's Darkest Sin
08-09-2006, 18:21
I've always used them, using a Druchii army without rxb's is like taking an army without Witch Elves.. what, no Witch Elves... that be no Druchii army... Arrrr.


For a slightly more serious answer I've always found them quite useful, yeah they they are only str 3, but I enjoy flanking my foes units and peppering them to death, it seems a solid tactic so far, and if they aren't a very good shooty army back, the crossbows can lay down some serious problems while standing there shooting twice each round.

Although I will say for a few months now my main foe has been a Wood Elf army and I've been out shooting them.. which is a little concerning for the Woodies so my current core probably reflects that. When I went through a stage of constantly playing Dwarves a couple of years ago I only took the one unit of rxb's and had Cold Ones and two more Reapers for stopping power. You should see a Dwarf generals face when 4 Reapers open up on his prize Hammerer unit with him in it.. messy.

The Song of Spears
08-09-2006, 19:06
I thought skaven were the bane of DE? They are shooty, mass numbers and decent leadership. true ja?

Are there no banners or such for re-rolling stupidity tests for cold ones?

General Veers
08-09-2006, 19:57
I thought skaven were the bane of DE? They are shooty, mass numbers and decent leadership. true ja?The skaven players I fight seemed to enjoy the mass numbers (very little flanking room if any) warplighting spell(? not sure of the name, but it's cheap and deadly) and since they're so hard to flank they're leadership is very good. The shooting bit is just a bonus. ;)


Are there no banners or such for re-rolling stupidity tests for cold ones?Not in 6th. Maybe something in 7th helps now? I haven't read the stupidity rules closely yet.

Cenyu
08-09-2006, 19:59
No. Such a banner was included in 5th Ed but was not included in 6th because it would be quite a no-brainer.

sulla
09-09-2006, 01:02
No. Such a banner was included in 5th Ed but was not included in 6th because it would be quite a no-brainer.

Don't worry, we got a new no-brainer banner for CoK in the Storm of Chaos...:evilgrin:

Camrion
09-09-2006, 04:04
Oh man, I let my friend use my dark elf list against my new orcs. He's quite new.

Highlight:
Charge a unit of 20 spear-elves with a sorceress with a bait unit of 10 boys (who can resist a charge with +S choppas?) careful to keep set 6" from nearby units to avoid break panic.

Assassin is revealed and brings the hurt. Sorceress dies in the melee but the elven spearmen pursue and cut down the boyz, only to fall into my unit of 20 Black Orcs with Orc Big Boss standard bearer and my Black Orc Big Boss general wearing Drog's.

Spear-elves open the first combat with the assassin challenging and eatting my unit champion with a total of 4 wounds. Spear-elves then turn in and kill 2 black orcs on the charge. (OUCH!) Pass my break tests and in the next round, Black Orc Big Boss vs the assassin. 2 wounds, roll Drog's at 4+ vs S6 attacks. Roll two 2's, another throat slit. Then the spear elves kill another black orc and win combat. Battle standard bearer is still there, we pass our break test. Last round.. Assassin pours 4 wounds into the standard bearer through challenge, major overkill...then the spear-elves kill 3 more black orcs. Route. Minor loss. Trolls ate the other side of the table to my luck.

Ouch..

Camrion

The Song of Spears
09-09-2006, 05:06
Don't worry, we got a new no-brainer banner for CoK in the Storm of Chaos...:evilgrin:

CoK?

Sounds like it was a hellavua game, not too many armies can stand toe to toe with orks in CC, if ork in WHFB are like the ones in 40k

General Veers
09-09-2006, 19:07
CoK?Cold One Knights


Sounds like it was a hellavua game, not too many armies can stand toe to toe with orks in CC, if ork in WHFB are like the ones in 40kThey're not the same. Orcs are good in cc in WFB of course but they don't wipe the field clean like Orks in 40K can.
Those spear elves killing so many Black Orcs is uncommon. I haven't run the numbers but methinks the Black Orcs with Orc STB and Black Orc General is about the same in cost as 20 spear elves, Sorceress and assasin. The assassin getting 4 wounds on an orc is unusual as well.

zak
11-09-2006, 11:21
I've read the majority of the posts and will try not to repeat too much.

As all ready stated there are many ways to play the DE. You will have to play and learn and see exactly what's best for you. I prefer the attacking army. I do not take any X-bows as I find them ineffective, especially when all my units are in combat and they sit their twiddling thumbs.
I'm amazed that no one has told you about what is my own opinion the best infantry unit for DE. The Corsairs are cracking. They have two attacks and have a decent save of 4+ against shooting and 5+ in combat. They always out perform my spearelves and only slightly more expensive.
For an elite choice I would take executioners as they are cheap, but effective. Black Guard are too expensive for 1500-2000 point games and witchelves do not usually fare too well against high toughness opponents even with poison.
You really can't leave home without the chariot. I try to take two and use them together. Stupidity is sometimes a problem, but with leadership 8 or better they are usually reliable. They are also toughness 5 making them one unit that can last in a fight.
Overall hit hard and break early. The bane of DE's is the protracted battle. Low toughness, high points and weak armour means that your always on a loser. Be careful about when and where you charge and you stand a good chance of winning.
On a diffirent note. Never found Skaven a problem.

The Song of Spears
11-09-2006, 14:47
So do you use your chariots for flanking or direct charged relying on their T5 to keep them alive long enough to get a flanking move from another unit? And while some units suffer from stupidity, do you think the DE have trouble with morale? Or simply just staying alive?

Venkh
12-09-2006, 14:46
Personally i pair my chariots with my infantry units. A combined charge with my chariot and a fully ranked unit will break most enemies effortlessly.

My warriors are usually able to take a charge too. Static combat res of 5 + generals leadership 9 usually means that they will be around at the end of my opponents turn. In my turn my chariot counter charges and again, i will most probably win combat.

The T5 really helps too, If my enemy is shooting at my chariot, he's not shooting at my more fragile infantry.

Simple but effective

Chariots can also be run in pairs. 2 can just about take on a fuly ranked unit frontally.

I dont really see chariots as wide flankers, that job is better undertaken by my dark riders and harpies. They are just too slow to be of use. Keeping them within your generals leadership zone is a good idea too

The drawback of chariots is their stupidity and the vulnerability to s7+ weaponry. Keep them away from cannon and reptiles wearing gym shoes!

On the subject of Morale, dark elves have excellent leadership and should pass psycology and break tests most of the time. So yes you will die, but you will be taking the blade in the chest, not in the back:evilgrin:

The Song of Spears
12-09-2006, 15:15
Chariots suffer from stupidity too? sheesh, whith the slaan army out there, why do the DE use the same units? Why not some nasty critter from the DE neck of the woods? I dunno, tigers/panthers, would be kinda cool... hmmm...using the same rules as the codex provides, i wonder if anyone would complain than i switched out the model the DE used for cold ones?

anyhoo.. chariots sound cool, and while they fall easily, the basic troop sounds good too.

I am thinking a solid line of troops and a chariot, plus a squad or two of dark riders and harpies all backed up by reaper launcher, rxb troops and cold ones would be a good start. how many of each exactly?

Venkh
12-09-2006, 16:42
Dark Elves have used Cold Ones since at least the dawn of 2nd ed, i dont think thats ever going to change! Nobody will compain if you swap the current reptiles with giant panthers, just tell me where you can find them!

What sort of budget are you working to?

Personally, if i was buying again i would do so in this order:


1 box of warriors (make 16 spear warriors)
Some character models a sorceress or two and a suitable noble type (initially convert one from a warrior)
One Chariot
Two reapers
5 dark riders
Another box of warriors (make 4 spearmen & 10 crossbowmen)
Another Chariot
6 Harpies
5 dark riders


Once you have all of this stuff you will have a good solid core that you can add to with more specialised units like witch elves and executioners.

Hope this helped!

The Song of Spears
12-09-2006, 17:10
Ok, makes sense, here's what i have so far...


1 box of warriors (16 spear warriors)
1 reaper bolt
3 dark riders Command
12 Harpies
3 Cold Ones Knights
3 Corsairs Command
1 Assasin
1 Malus Darkblade


But the list you provided sounds great i think i will work towards that.

As far as Panthers, i think Reaper has some, but i don't know if they are the right size yet, they only have a million models to search through on their website :p

General Veers
12-09-2006, 17:16
For Reaper Miniatures look at the War Store's site. Apparently they put it up so you can scroll through by type and/or faction.

http://www.thewarstore.net

Look under Fantasy on the left side for the Reaper lines.

Elves on Cold Ones predate the Lizards on Cold Ones I think. I remember something way back about how the Dark Elves discovered Cold Ones in the vast caverns under their lands in Naggaroth. This is similar to the Drow (who live underground, in suprise, large caverns) in D&D that have been known to ride lizards as well.

The Song of Spears
12-09-2006, 18:27
Yeah, while i am sure the cold ones are supported in the fluff someplace, i like the idea of big cats models as oposed to cold ones (also my girlfriend is collecting a lizardman army, so i was considering swapping the cold ones out for uniqueness sake)

Speaking of Drow, i found a WotC mini that Drizzt rode, a large panther..)

General Veers
12-09-2006, 23:35
I can definately see how big cats can stop and wait when you want them to go. Cats don't do what people want them to do. So cats having to take a stupidity test (although it's not stupid, it's them doing what they want, which if trying to get the charge off I guess makes it stupid) makes sense.

Let us know which panther models you end up getting!

Venkh
13-09-2006, 12:05
There is also an Aspect of Khaine in the army book known as the Iron Panther. So theres even background to support it.

The Song of Spears
13-09-2006, 14:31
Heck yeah! I mean, ever heard the phrase, "As hard as hearding cats." ? Hehehe, i think i found some that will work, once they arrive i will let youknow if they look ok (this has turned out to be harder than i thought becasue the size of a mount , a cold one, is actually the size of a Dire Jungle cat, so just a regular sized tiger/panther looks too small...)

Holy Crap! Manticores!
21-09-2006, 11:53
If you've ever played with or against Tau in 40k, this will make much more sense: DE are a "combined-arms" army, where everything works to support everything else, although the infinite tactica will vary from player to palyer and army to army. That is, Witch Elves are pretty damn good, but if you support them with Corsairs, vis-a-vis missile screening and combining charges, they're even better. (BTW, can we drop the term "paper tigers" for the more appropriate "glass cannons"?) Especially if you can pull off the hidden Assassin trick.:evilgrin: (Kudos to Zak for bringing these forgotten buggers up. Not only are they useful within the context of an army, but they're pirates, too! ARRRRRRR!)

Even druchii.net is by no means exhaustive of the possibilities with the army, so if you have a good core to start with, you can expand the list by plugging in a unit here and there.

Anyways, salutations for choosing the proper elf army.

The Song of Spears
21-09-2006, 14:51
HC!M! I see your point. I have been watching a few WHFB and have noticed that the armied that do poorly are the ones that set up poorly, so that when their CC troops move in, they have no support. (or for some strange reason people will just sit and shoot, then when all their cannons, reapers bolts, etc have been destoryed, then they move in to CC... ) I think DE sounds like fantastic fun, and i hope to use them well.

The Song of Spears
24-09-2006, 19:24
What size units(how many models) do you think i should field of cold one riders and darkone riders?

datalink7
25-09-2006, 06:20
Make sure to visit www.druchii.net

Biggest faction specific website that I know of. An indispensible resource for dark elf players.

Venkh
26-09-2006, 10:44
What size units(how many models) do you think i should field of cold one riders and darkone riders?

I would recommend:

5 dark riders crossbows & musician. A very versataile unit. Can shoot, flank, bait and rallies on Ld 9
or
5 dark riders naked. For flank, suicide charge, bait

6 cold one knights full command (warbanner). A nice hammer unit - still cant take on fully ranked infantry unit to the front.
or
5 cold one knights naked. flanking & bait.

Arch-Traitor Horus
26-09-2006, 11:23
Whats the full list of everything you brought??

zak
26-09-2006, 21:22
I would use units of about 5 or 6 Cold Ones in one rank. I never use any more as you need 10 for the rank bonus and that just seemed to be a points waste when you could take two units of 5 instead.
As for my chariots (sorry about the gap in posting) I use them as the game dictates. I usually set them up together and try to use them as a ram to open up a hole in the centre of the opposing army. The useful thing is that my opponents often see the chariots as the largest threat and target these. This allows the rest of the army who can't afford to be shot at to get in combat in one piece. Unfortunately, the old stupidity crops occasionally and mucks up the plans, but that's life!:rolleyes:

Exploited
27-09-2006, 11:05
About the assassin. I also think they are a bit pricey and as your assassin makes his appearance later replacing one of your fielded units you would loose all those points for that particular unit. So you are not going to put him with the cold ones, er not the crossbowmen, so its going to be the warriors. Unless I misunderstood the rule in which case correct me.

Does this make sense, sorry its late as I typing this 02:25 in the morning.


it doesnt replace an entire unit...

oh WAIT tis isnt 40 spearmen... its one really really angry bugger

he displaces 1 (1) standard rank and file model (which is moved to he back ranks if there isnt room for him)

personally hes my 10th shade mandbane and that +1 at = amusing when people accuse my army of being ****

The Song of Spears
27-09-2006, 14:45
Yeah i had looked that up in the book about how the assasin gets into battle, though i do like Exploited's initial responce, it was Monty python funny :p

Anyway. While i ask as part of a tactics query on how many to take, i also needed to know becasue I am buying panthers instead of cold ones for mounts, so i needed to know how many to order.

Thus far it looks like at least one 5 man unit of Dark riders and one 5 man unit of cold one riders...

The Song of Spears
29-09-2006, 01:50
Ok, so this is what i have:

10 Black Guard
16 Warriors
1 Cold One Knight
1 Malus Darkblade
6 Corsairs Command
1 Assassin
12 Harpies
1 Reapoer Bolt Thrower
2 Dark Riders Command

Whats that get me? What else do i direly need to get to really make these units i got work?

Prolly fill out the Corsairs, Cold One Knights, Dark Riders i imagine...

Zethal
29-09-2006, 02:33
dark riders are key to just about every druchii army. so yeah some of them.
filling out the corsairs is not a bad idea, however they are metal. If you just want units for static combat res spearmen are cheaper both in points and in $$.
If you want corsairs for active combat res, i prefer witches, they are simply amazing. the hag with manbane has won me more games then i can remember. I would invest in those before corsairs. Exspecailly because i would expect plastic corsairs before plastic witches.
when the DE book gets revised 18 months or so from now.

I have 20 Dark riders and am pretty happy with that number, mostly i just use 15 in 2k points though.

Unless you want a huge CoK unit 5 should be just fine.

The Song of Spears
29-09-2006, 15:10
Yeah i think i will get the spearmen, and DEFINANTLY i will get some witches, i am trying to think of a good bait unit that can actually recieve some punishment, take hits from ranged attacks and, withstand getting charged, or withstand charging a superior unit until i can reenforce them.

Venkh
29-09-2006, 15:38
If you need a unit that can take a charge and take some "moderate" punishment, you want spearmen. Theres not much else in the list that can take a charge well (other than black guard)

Holy Crap! Manticores!
06-10-2006, 13:13
Ok, so this is what i have:

10 Black Guard
16 Warriors
1 Cold One Knight
1 Malus Darkblade
6 Corsairs Command
1 Assassin
12 Harpies
1 Reapoer Bolt Thrower
2 Dark Riders Command

Whats that get me? What else do i direly need to get to really make these units i got work?

Prolly fill out the Corsairs, Cold One Knights, Dark Riders i imagine...I'd go with one or two boxes of Warriors... then more Dark Riders... you'll want a beefy Core available. Corsairs are pretty decent, plus they're pirates!!! ARRRRR!!! They are excellent against non-warmachine shooting for survivability and not half-bad with numbers. (I typically bring 20 of them when I bring them at all... start out 4 ranks 5-wide and FC for nice static CR to start. Next would be some Witch Elves to tuck your Assassin into... a box of ten and 6 command models should be more than you can use at first... As for myself, I have 45 (including 3 sets of command models) at my disposal, although I doubt i'd bring them all out against most armies. There are a few that I would though... Bonus points if you guessed VC... they have no real shooting (a couple magic missiles amongst the three lores available and a few bound items), they rip against low-armor infantry, and WS 2 troops will have diffuculty hitting back. As long as they don't lose their Frenzy, they will be immune to psychology, so no fear or terror tests! HA!

I'd hold off on Cold One Knights to start with. Sure, causing fear and S5 lances on the charge looks nice, but Stupidity has a way of dashing the best laid plans of mice and men at the worst possible times! (Oddly enough, it's a case of steeds being somewhat more relaible for wounding than the riders... I'll have a thread about these things coming up soon. They always hit at S4... the truly redeeming value of this unit.) I'd say get 5 (min unit size) to start, plus maybe a Noble on CO. My Highborn on CO with a unit of 6 COK's is pretty vicious... has yet to be killed. No VP's for you!

Aside from that, the best kit-out I've found for an Assassin is add HW +Rune of Khaine + manbane. He'll always have to pursue... not really an issue if you tuck him into a unit of Witches. Bonus points for revealing him when you've been charged and eating up three models from opponent's front rank.

The Song of Spears
06-10-2006, 14:52
Sounds like a good idea, i am not sure how much i like the look of the cold ones in the DE army anyway, they just seem so out of place...

could i put a assassin into a group of harpies? they are more mobile and would have a better chace at dropping him off in a preferred location, ja?

Holy Crap! Manticores!
06-10-2006, 15:20
could i put a assassin into a group of harpies? they are more mobile and would have a better chace at dropping him off in a preferred location, ja?
No, characters cannot join flying units (except bret peg knights, though i'm not sure about that...)

A neat trick is to deploy him as scout with shades. He can't be hidden, but with some terrain setup he can be deployed in an oppurtune position.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
06-10-2006, 16:40
The safest units in the list (like the HE list) are the cavalry...

The riskiest unit in our entire army is our heavy cavalry!

Vanger
09-10-2006, 09:11
COK out of place? After the WE they are the best looking models IMHO (but a pain to put the riders on the lizzies :( )

I only had a few games with DE (I started with them some weeks ago :) ), but I already love harpies. Took a unit of 10 with them... jump out from behind, teared up a block of infantry, and then a unit of fast cavalary. They caused enough mayhem to disrupt my enemies battle plans, and bring me a solid victory. I can see why they are 0-1 choice (not only from fluff view).

The Song of Spears
09-10-2006, 14:59
I only had a few games with DE (I started with them some weeks ago :) ), but I already love harpies. Took a unit of 10 with them... jump out from behind, teared up a block of infantry, and then a unit of fast cavalary. They caused enough mayhem to disrupt my enemies battle plans, and bring me a solid victory. I can see why they are 0-1 choice (not only from fluff view).

That's what i was hoping to hear. I have always like the use of jump/flying assault troops. Nothing can throw a monkey wrench in the works better! And if you have enough, and don't get countercharged, the low Ldrshp is no big deal.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
09-10-2006, 17:29
the low Ldrshp is no big deal.

Unless fighting a Fear causing army like Undead, where they become next to useless...

Having said that, I still like and use Harpies. I'm curious how they could rip through an infantry block (unless it was something really soft like Goblins), however. I am also excited to try them out with the new crossfire rules.

I do hope that they are allowed to use the General's leadership next edition, as I see no reason why they are handicapped in this way, when similar entries in other armies are not...

Holy Crap! Manticores!
10-10-2006, 13:32
COK out of place? After the WE they are the best looking models IMHO (but a pain to put the riders on the lizzies :( )

I only had a few games with DE (I started with them some weeks ago :) ), but I already love harpies. Took a unit of 10 with them... jump out from behind, teared up a block of infantry, and then a unit of fast cavalary. They caused enough mayhem to disrupt my enemies battle plans, and bring me a solid victory. I can see why they are 0-1 choice (not only from fluff view).lol, harpies are one of the worst units in the army. The only thing that keeps them from taking the title outright is that flying gives them a lot of mobility. Glad to hear that they are working so well for you. Maybe I need to bring larger units of them in the future. But my current units of 6-8 end up being expensive decoys who rarely get anything useful done.

*If I were to write them up for the next book, they would definitely be scarier.The current statline is comparable to a goblin, for 4-5 times the cost... and the gobbo can at least use the general's Ld.

Dranthar
11-10-2006, 09:01
For the record, I would say that harpies are definitely very useful for a few specific roles, those being warmachine hunting and sitting behind enemy units so when they break, they all die because they ran into my harpies. ;)

Vanger
11-10-2006, 09:06
Ok, Harpies are not cheap, but they fly, have two attacks. But I admit, this experience comes from fighting HE, which are not the toughest troops around. Surely agains chaos or dwarves they would be only point sink. Or Brettons. Or only good as march blocking units. But I like them :)

The infantry block consisted of HE spearelves. While I managed to get my 4+/4+ my opponenet wasn't so lucky. I won with 1 CR and he missed that Ld 7 test, so I run him down (not to hard with 3D6 against 2D6).

Maybe I'm only a lucky git :D

The Song of Spears
11-10-2006, 14:46
I am not sure how this translates into WHFB, but it takes roughly 15 jump infantry mariens to assault and kill 10 standard marines in WH40k. So assuming people use whatever the standard size infantry squad is, i would expect to never field less than 10 harpies in order for them to be effetive. In fact prolly closer to max squad size (15 right?) that way when i do get to attack i am hopefully casuing so many wounds i win combat and outumber who ever is left, is that possible?

Holy Crap! Manticores!
14-10-2006, 09:00
I don't think 40k ever translates to WHF properly... two totally different games.

The only exception I can think of would be harpies vs other flying troops. Just too much CR with ranked units.

Update... 4000 pts of Dark Elves
0% Executioners
(let the bashing begin.)