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Squirrel
22-06-2005, 21:44
Ok guys found this on the Waystone thought you might like a read...
All rights a copyright privliges go to Tarian Stormcaller who originally wrote it.

Original thread can be found here: Original Thread (http://s8.invisionfree.com/TheWaystone/index.php?showtopic=764&st=0&#entry3269016)



Right, I have the army box now, so here is my review! I won't give out too much, since I don't want GW's lawyers on me and that its such a nice book, you should buy it anyway!

Army Book

Background

The background isn't as drastically changed as was hinted - The elves arent all out savages in service to a demonic heart of the forest. Oirion and Ariel are still around, except Orion dies every winter and is reborn from a sacrifice in the spring (very Kaela Mensha Khaine from 40k). Ariel is awake all year round, but she rests in the Oak of Ages in winter and is only roused in emergencies.

The Wild Hunt are basically the same as the Court of the Young King from Eldar, they select somneone to be the new Kurnous Incarnate and he gets a life of luxury until he's killed in a a year's time The Wild Riders have part of Kurnous' spirit in them, making them kinda like possessed.

They confirm the Lady of the Lake is a Asrai sorceress, using her to keep the Brettonians in line and friendly.

Morgoth is now the arch enemy of the forest, and all their time is spent hunting and killing him, only for him to be reincarnated.

There was a civil war between a psycho treeman lord and the Asrai, which he lost. They've locked him up along with a load of nasty unfriendly spirits in the SE of the forest, and he keeps trying to break free and wipe out the elves.

Other then that, the background is same as last edition.

Artwork

I will spell this out. The artwork in the book is the best I've ever seen - beats any other army book hands down. It perfectly captures the spirit of the army (no pun intended) and the painting is of very high standard.

Army List

I'm not going to go into details here for obvious reason, just give my opinions and dispell any false rumours.

Overall, the list is very balanced and works well - the only obvious boo boo I can see is that great eagles are 1 per rare, with the competiiton for the rare slot, no one is ever going to use them. But you can still take them as mounts for your characters.

The design of the army is to hit the enemy before they hit you, inflict vast amounts of damage, and either break them in the first turn using fear, or just keep killing so many that they cant hit back. If you want anchoring units and rank bonuses, this army is not for you. This army is about hitting the enemy units with devasting force - but if they hit you, then you are in for a world of hurt. Luckily, they remain the most maneuverable army in the game, and the list is designed with guerilla tactics in mind!

The best thing about the list is how customisable it is. You can theme your army to the extreme - and still have a very viable army. You can turn your elf lords into lord versions of waywatchers, wardancers, wild riders, eternal guard, scouts, and a weird one called tha Alter kindred which is sort of a loner harrassing one. For the spirit minded, you can have treeman lords and dryad heroes - dryads being lvl 1 wizards. For more magical oomph, you can turn elven mages into forest spirits (but then have to take a mount from the list)

There is little point in comparing the list from the earlier chronicles list - it is far too different. Most characters have got more expensive, the troops have got cheaper. Loads of stat changes or complete rewrites (like dryads)

Magic item wise, wood elves get a huge array of extremely potent items - they are very specialised, so they'll either work well against your opponent or do bugger all. I must say that they seem to have access to some of the beardiest combinations of magic items and rules I've ever seen - you can make some quite disgusting characterss. But they are still elves and still fragile (but once the book is on general release, i might let people into the combination ive found to make a near invulnverable lord )

Wood Elves can also take a selection of Spites which work exactly like magic items. These little spirits bestow some pretty powerful abilities to the character - you can only take one of each in an army and only one per character unless they are a forest spirit. They can do anything from giving extra attacks to casting spells to shooting..

Mages get their own spell lore, which is similar to life and beasts magic, but adapted and changed for elven use. I don't think there are any duds in the list (hell, anything is better then marsh mistress!), but some do have a very strategic use - sutblety over raw power is the main idea of the army.

Treeman can be taken as lords, rather like Shaggoth. They are also As. Hard. As. Nails.

You can take a dryad hero called a Branchwraith, which is a magic using dryad (only lvl 1 though). Still, its more resilient then an elven mage, and better in combat. Great for people who want a combat army that still uses magic.

Archers are yummy - cheaper and more effective then before (at least at short range). You can also upgrade them to scouts, but they lose certain special rules if you do so.

Glade Riders at first glance got horribly nerfed, but on careful reading I see that this is due to the wood elven special rules. You'll see what I mean - they are better offensively, just a tad more fragile.

Eternal Guard, well, I love these guys. They are cheap (for wood elves), and about the only holding unit in the army. They are core if you take a highborn. (Ooh, highborn eternal guard, i love themage!)

Dryads have been rewritten - but they are awesome! They cost the same as eternal guard, and their role is damage dealing shock troops rather then defence. They are surprisingly resilient and can dish it out like nobodys business. The models are also fantastic - much better then the pictures!

Wardancers. Well now. More expensive then before (but did get a stat upgrade) and have been switched from the ultimate holding unit to pure and utter silly amounts of damage. I wont list their dances, but basically only 1 of the original dances remains - 1 gives a different stat upgrade when you use it, the unbreakable one is gone (replaced by a different defensive dance, more in character I feel), and the rank removal is gone (replaced by a dance of dubious and speicalised use). There will be people wailing at the changes - but come on, the unbreakable dance WAS silly good

Warhawks... Twice the cost, but twice as hard to kill. They are also VERY good shock/harrassment troops - they can hit and run. I like them very much now - before they used to be expensive more maneuverable glade riders - now they wittle down the enemy in combat (you'll want to use them against crap combat units, not ones that can do you a lot of damage back) and the enemy will not ever be able to run this unit down. Get em into combat, run out, repeat. Its good and annoying as hell to your opponent . Still, its a lot of points to invest.

Squirrel
22-06-2005, 21:46
Wild Riders. Well, these guy's are intended to be your combat cavalry, they get a large amount of special rules, and show in a nutshell that wood elves are absolutely not intended for beginner gamers. So many things to remember! Again, running with the theme of the army, they inflict lots of damage and are purely intended to hurt the enemy a lot - but they can't hold a unit on their own and will get munched if you charge them into a big unit (they are fast cavalry). They are forest spirits though, so are the only fast thing you're gonna get if you go the all spirit route. Be careful with these guys - they do have a fair bit of armour, but will die in droves if you charge them up against something mean. Use these guys in the flanks to finish off the enemy - thats what they are designed for. They arent that expensive either (couple more points then glade riders), so you can afford a big unit or two little ones if you like.

Treekin. Costing an absolutely huge amount of points, these are the only multiple model unit in your army that can take serious punishment. Similar in role and stats to kroxigor , ogres, etc, they INCREDIBLY hard to kill (seriously, these guys have lots of wounds, a high toughness and a silly amount of armour) and very very nasty in combat, but have a low initiative. So more like a conventional anchor unit really. Forest spirits, gotta love em!

Waywatchers. Oh. My. God. They immediately strike you as the beardy uber unit people are going to complain about, but, honestly guys, if the unsutble minded of the wood elf players out there think they are going to win with these alone, they will be dissappointed. Yes, they can kill like crazy. They can do a respectable amount in combat. They are very hard to hit with shooting. And they are superb infiltrators and can be placed where the opponent least expects it. You wont really want to stick these guys at the back of the board and plink away, you'll want to hit them from short range in turn 1 in the flanks, doing devastating damage to their elite cavalryo or war machines, and forcing his army to turn and face the threat, disrupting their battle line and allowing your other troops to get stuck in their flanks, or they'll have to ignore them, accepting that they are going to kill lots and lots of his force and stop them marching Course, you'll have to beware of fast cavalry and enemy skirmishers coming to find you.. They dont cost a massive amount, definitely worth their points.

Treeman, well, they cost a lot more now, and are slower and less leadership, but got a nice damage upgrade (sounds in line with the army, doesnt it!), and get a nice sort of short range mobile master of wood shooting attack. Thy lost their unbreakable rule but got stubborn instead. Making them a bit more consistant in the long run, but you roll unlucky with that break test, you have lost an awful lost of points.. Again, not designed for one on one fights really, you'd want to at least soften up the enemy unit first with missile fire or warhawks, or have someone ready to flank charge with the treeman.

Great eagles. What a load of crap. One per rare choice? I sure wont be using them. Can still take them as mounts for your characters though.

Models

Im sure I dont need to say how good they are, you've all seen them. Best models GW has ever done. Im not too impressed with the treeman or warhawks, but the rest are great. The plastic kits come with tons of extras, little Spites and foilage to put on the bases, owls, waystones, even butterflies They are very tricky to put together (especially the Glade Riders) due to their small contact points and spidly little arms. But they do look fantastic and are very nicely posed. I kept drooling over my Glade Rider champion, who is stabbing down with his spear, it looks so cool

Final Impressions

Im absultely chuffed with this book. It is far, far better then I was expecting, and this is the only elven army you are going to see which isn't the same army over and over, unlike their brethren.

You can customise it in so many ways. Want a waywatcher lord with his army of Scouts and waywatchers and warhawks, destroying the enemy with missile fire and vanishing like mist? Go for it. Want a winter army with an Eternal Guard lord, with lots of block regiments ready to defend their home? Sure, you can. Want a Kurnous army with a hero on a Great stag spurring his Wild Riders onward, lead by Kurnous and plenty of wardancers? Hell yeah! Want an army of the forest, purely lead by devasting spirits and impossibly hard to kill treekin? Woohoo! Get the idea? No "Oh, im high elves so I must take a cavlary army" or "Dark elves - crossbows, chariots and cold ones.." here thank you!

I hope you enjoyed this write up, Im not going to post rules or anything like that so please don't ask, this was purely to express my opinion and dispell false rumours, and hopefully you are looking forward to your own force

Hope you like...
Brucey...

Galadrin
22-06-2005, 23:11
Very nice. Thank you.

Archaon
22-06-2005, 23:34
Man..this sounds really awesome.

This army comes at a time when i put my unassembled 2500 Bretonia army on Ebay due to lack of time and a bit of money shortage but judging from this review and the models i've seen so far (apart from the abysmally bad Warhawk Riders) i'm really tempted this time.

It will pass..at least when my friend whips my ass with his Wood Elves afters he's gotten the book :D

amagi
22-06-2005, 23:43
I'm convinced. So far the wait appears to have been worth it.

A point of contention though--I disagree that having Great Eagles as only 1 per rare slot is much of a drawback. Yes the other rare units are tempting, but taking the others involves a large points cost. If your army is primarily made up of Core and Special then a cheap Rare eagle might be just what you need. Also the reviewer already noted that there's a large potential for customizing the army, and with certain tactical styles a couple of eagles might be preferable to the other rare choices.

Also, in response to the post above, if someone comes up with a good way to convert the warhawk riders into a kneeling position, they'll be fine. The models look great it's just the ridiculous standing pose that ruins it.

Lord Setra
23-06-2005, 18:43
This has just made my atcipation for the Wood elves even greater.

This guy has described exactly what i wanted to hear, he also makes the treeman sound like he is the daddy.

Cheers

Lord Setra

Crube
23-06-2005, 19:02
I think I just had an accident - I'm sooooo excited - i cant wait...

User Name
23-06-2005, 19:10
IM gettting rather tempted by the WE, they are starting to look better and better, Ill just have to wait until I can get a good look at the mook and models.

As for kneeling warhawks, isnt their a set of legs in the glade gaurd sprue that is kneeling, just chop off the top of the wahrhawk rider or make a suitable replacment, also a good way to make a charicter on a warhawk, if thats even an option. If theres a place for them to stand kneeling shouldnt be that much different, theres also grenstuff to fill in the gaps.

Neknoh
23-06-2005, 19:21
Why not simply take some of the more "moving" Glade Guards and put them atop warhawks?

And for the Wild Hunt, get Eternal Guard and place them standing on the Steeds, that will be scary.


As for myself and getting these dudes, I will probably get a small Warband with a Waywatcher theme to go against my Beasts of Chaos army (easy to make a nice warband out of them) and then use the two forces to encourage new players into the hobby.

The one thing though, should I use Trolls or Centigors in the BoC warband against the WE Warband?

User Name
23-06-2005, 19:41
centigors wouldgive chaos some more tactical options and provide a viable way to take out units of archers hiding in woods and such

trolls would give te chaos player a hard anchor that would take alot of firepower or commitment of multiple fragile units that could give te chaos player time to react and countercharge it really depends on how you plan to deal with the elfs, but if oyu were going to do a shooting WE army then a larer unit of centigors would probable be better, the do hit jsut as hard as chaos knights on the charge, and possably chosen if you roll a 6 for drunk on the turn you charge

Frankly
24-06-2005, 04:23
Everyone wants to play these guys in our club ... EVERYONE, I'm going to be swamped by elven forest hippes for the next year or two.

Galonthar
24-06-2005, 09:06
:eek: OMFG :eek:

mu..muuu...MUUUSTT.... hAaAAAa........ve :chrome:

the woodies will be awesome,.. the waiting wasn`t for nothing,.....


about the great eagles, I was about to break my mage from his warhawk, and place him on one of my 2 great eagles, if 1 of them is allready a rare choice (choices that will definately be fille up with waywatchers,... and maybe 1 treeman (depends on their stats))

Quetzl
24-06-2005, 17:13
I'll buy the book and see where I go from there.

Larithen
24-06-2005, 17:30
i would get them, but so many people are going to want them, after the first day they are going to be out of stock everywhere, plus i no someone who is collecting them, so i will have plenty of time to play them... hehe

Castigator
25-06-2005, 10:11
The design of the army is to hit the enemy before they hit you, inflict vast amounts of damage, and either break them in the first turn using fear, or just keep killing so many that they cant hit back...

... Luckily, they remain the most maneuverable army in the game, and the list is designed with guerilla tactics in mind!


These statements to me seem to be sort of a contradiction in itself.

I'm not a military expert, but as far as I know, guerilla tactics are primarily based on

1. - haveing superior numbers (the exact opposite of how wood elfs used to play)

2. - having inferior quality troops (once more, the exact opposite of how wood elfs used to play)

3- demoralizing the enemy through atricious and demoralizing attacks (not very elf-like either, except Dark Elfs I suppose)

4. - wearing the enemys resolve down, by drawing out the conflict into an endless quagmire (well, ya know, the exact opposite of the strike-hard, strike-fast tactics wood elfs used to employ)

5. - avoiding to meet the enemy head-on, on the battlefield (kinda the opposite of the very concept of Warhammer Tabletop fights, but even fluff-wise, things like the Wild-Hunt seem to point in a different direction for the WE.)


I could go on, but in the end, guerilla warfare implies a sort of Skaven-like army and background (ya know, poisoning the wells, sneaking about in tunnels, avoiding the open battlefield) and doesn't at all fit me mental image of the Wood Elfs as a highly specialized, quick-and-professional, special-ops kinda army.

Did they really change the Wood Elfs that much? Nothing I have read so far seems to even hint in that direction.

Brandir
25-06-2005, 10:27
I too now have the Wood Elf army book and agree with most of the comments fromt he review. The Giant Eagle affair is, in my opinion, a case of GW couldn't think of anything else to add to the Rare choices. It is a limp addition to the list.

The Treeman models are pretty poor, looking like the old Dryads, and I'm not 100% sure about teh Warhawk Riders.

There is a lot of hype about this release. Too much in my opinion. Far too many people are just going potty over the minis and rules and are not being objective enough about the quality. I suspect that this release will be wonderful for GW's turnover and the army sets will sell out within days (I've ordered mine already knowing full well that I will then have two army books!).

But I also expect that after the high many people will consign their models to the cupboard and there will be many bargains to be picked up on ebay!

But, overall it is about bloomin' time that GW have released this army for this edition of WHFB. Did they deserve to be last? Probably, given that they were one of the poorest in term of sales for the last edition.

Galadrin
25-06-2005, 12:04
Actually, the definition of guerrilla warfare (or 'guerilla warfare') is having superior position and maneuver as well as knowing the lay of the land. These are represented by the WE superior maneuver ability, plus the ability to move through forests (and place an extra forest). Guerrilla tactics also focuses on using suprise attacks (certainly Wood Elf when a three-part charge comes together) and on harrassment (the very nature of WE Scouts and Waywatchers). Contrary to popular belief, guerrillas are defined as fighting against a superior and outnumbering force. So 1 isn't true, 2 isn't true, for 3 the use of arrows and fear for panic is demoralizing, for 4 they do wear the enemy down and for 5 the WE certainly can't win a head-on fight (but maneuver can get us flanks and rears, or strike at units that aren't frontline).

In modern war, fighting irregular units is not always fighting against guerrilla warfare, which is probably where the confusion is coming from (and even when it is, it is called guerrilla warfare because of the tactics they use, rather than how many men or what quality men they have). Guerrilla warfare wouldn't stop being guerrilla warfare if the number of guerrillas was reduced below the invading force, would it?

@Brandir, Am I allowed to be pleased with the coming of the new book? I've played WE and only WE from the beginning : )

Frankly
25-06-2005, 13:47
But I also expect that after the high many people will consign their models to the cupboard and there will be many bargains to be picked up on ebay!



Music to my ears ;)

Brandir
25-06-2005, 14:15
... @Brandir, Am I allowed to be pleased with the coming of the new book? I've played WE and only WE from the beginning : )

Yes, you are. I am in the same boat as you - a Wood Elf player from the year dot. But there are many many many players who will be using Wood Elves for the firts time. Which is music to GW's ears!

Etienne de Beaugard
25-06-2005, 14:35
I remain very pleased for all the Wood Elf players out there, who have waited so long for your army book. It looks like your long wait has been well rewarded.

And Brandir, you will be happy to know, I am not buying a Wood Elf army. I have my one army. I think I'll stick with it.

Xavier
25-06-2005, 19:22
the next... 34 days 14 hours 28 mins are going to pass so slow...

lorelorn
26-06-2005, 04:59
These statements to me seem to be sort of a contradiction in itself.

I'm not a military expert, but as far as I know, guerilla tactics are primarily based on

1. - haveing superior numbers (the exact opposite of how wood elfs used to play)

No, guerilla tactics are based around being quantitatively and qualitatively outnumbered, but having an absolute mastery of terrain. The term guerilla 'little war' comes from Napoleon's invasion of Spain. The Spanish, finding themselves facing a force with better troops and more of them, took to attacking weak points in small groups, disappearing back into the hills when pursued.


2. - having inferior quality troops (once more, the exact opposite of how wood elfs used to play).
Yes and no. Guerilla tactics often suit the troops using them, that's why they are used, becasue they work so well. They don't work for conventional forces though.
So in battleground terms yes, guerilla troops are lower quality, which is why guerilla tactics involve avoiding a battlefield encounter.


3- demoralizing the enemy through atricious and demoralizing attacks (not very elf-like either, except Dark Elfs I suppose) Again no. Attrition is the exact opposite of guerilla. With attrition you basically say 'we have more men than them, so if we kill them on a 1:1 ratio, we will win.' Made famous by that idiot Haig in WWI, used ruthlessly by the Soviets in WWII.


4. - wearing the enemys resolve down, by drawing out the conflict into an endless quagmire (well, ya know, the exact opposite of the strike-hard, strike-fast tactics wood elfs used to employ)
No, guerilla tactics are employed by forces who want to win, but lack the resouces to mount a miliray campaign. Guerilla campaigns require less coordination. Guerrilla attacks are the epitome of strike hard, fall back.


5. - avoiding to meet the enemy head-on, on the battlefield (kinda the opposite of the very concept of Warhammer Tabletop fights, but even fluff-wise, things like the Wild-Hunt seem to point in a different direction for the WE.)
True. For warhammer it is better to think of an invading army which is met by a few sharshooters, which turns into a lot of sharpshooters. Troops who break their lines to go after the sharpshooters meet messy deaths to unseen forest assailants. Kind of like the Brits in the American War of Independence.



I could go on, but in the end, guerilla warfare implies a sort of Skaven-like army and background (ya know, poisoning the wells, sneaking about in tunnels, avoiding the open battlefield) and doesn't at all fit me mental image of the Wood Elfs as a highly specialized, quick-and-professional, special-ops kinda army. It should. Wood elves use exactly the tactics you woud expect, given their background and place in the Warhammer World. Skaven are more akin to the North Koreans, to keep up the real world analogy.

StarFyre
26-06-2005, 05:20
I hear about the wild hunt here...

The one led by the Master of the Hunt, antlered man, with pack of dogs...would appear in celtic lands, to avenge evil, hunt it down. Even if defeated, would reappear the next night. All who heard his horn, would join the hunt.

Is there such a model in the Wood Elf army? Is it that Orion guy?

What does Orion, and those sisters on the dragon do? I assume they are the special characters?

Oh, and Mistress of the marsh can be quite useful, if using the Trial rule Mazdamundi :)

Can auto kill almost any unit in the game with that spell and one of his unique spells :P

Sanjay

Sir Charles
26-06-2005, 05:48
"They confirm the Lady of the Lake is a Asrai sorceress, using her to keep the Brettonians in line and friendly."

Ok, I figured someone else would adress this, but since that hasn't happened I guess I will. So is this completly verified, since acording to rumors in the Rumor Forum that whole question was left unadressed, and I'm sure I'm not the only Brettonian player who would prefer that the whole thing had been left hanging or open to interpetation than have it be set in stone that our armies primary godess is just some elf jerking us a long.

Galadrin
26-06-2005, 11:36
I heard that the Lady of the Lake was NOT an Asrai, but that goes against everything I've found on Portent : P

malisteen
26-06-2005, 18:20
Maybe they meant the Fey Enchantress and not the Lady? The Lady is a bit ephemeral to be just a wood elf sorceress, she's more an idea then a being. What need would the wood elves have for the Fey enchantress if they could jest send out the Lady herself to tell the brets what to do? If the Lady is any specific being, it's more likely that she's Ariel, the Wood Elf queen then a common mage.

glimli
27-06-2005, 06:02
yeah she gives inv saves to every knight in bretonnia who bothers to mention her name. what level spell would that be 10000000exp^10000000000?

i can def see the fey being an elf witch, just look at the model but the lady herself. i bloody hope not!

Galadrin
27-06-2005, 11:47
No she's definitely not Ariel. I believe the book mentions that the Lady was in Bretonnia before the Asrai were formed up in Loren. It is quite possible the Fay Enchantress is an Asrai, but I doubt the Lady is. That being said, it most likely is the case that the Lady of the Lake and Athel Loren are connected in some way, atleast now-a-days (although certainly less than how the Lady is connected to Bretonnia).

That new rumoured Timeline post (on the original site) sums it up nicely. From the Bretonnian point of view, the Bretonnians are allied with the inhabitants (IE the Elves) of Athel Loren. From the Asrai point of view, they are using the Fay Enchantress and (by relation) the Lady to manipulate the Breonnians into defending the western border of Athel Loren. I hardly call that manipulation myself; what are they going to do, move Quenelles?

Galonthar
27-06-2005, 12:44
what are they going to do, move Quenelles?

no,.. raid it,...
don`t forget Orion has raided it before with this wild hunt thing :p

and if the enchantress is an Asrai,... is she allowed to de fielded in an battle against the woodies???... that would be like "kin strife" :eek:

Galadrin
27-06-2005, 14:22
Well what I meant was, it's not like Bretonnia could do otherwise than protect Loren's western border. The only way that the west border would be unprotected is if Bretonnia declared war, or if they packed up Quenelles in U-Haul vans and drove for the coast.

Lady Bastet
27-06-2005, 15:34
"Morgoth is now the arch enemy of the forest, and all their time is spent hunting and killing him, only for him to be reincarnated."

I hope he means Morghur otherwise the Wood Elves and the Warhammer World are doomed!

Nazguire
28-06-2005, 11:39
Well what I meant was, it's not like Bretonnia could do otherwise than protect Loren's western border. The only way that the west border would be unprotected is if Bretonnia declared war, or if they packed up Quenelles in U-Haul vans and drove for the coast.



Which is quite a possibility...:D


Quenelles apparently hasn't seen the Hunt for a long time, ever since the Quenelles Duke Family Massacre...Sounds like a CSI episode...

eagletsi1
28-06-2005, 19:49
Thanks for your hard work.

eagletsi1