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View Full Version : A way to bring specialist games back? (bit of a read)



big squig
30-08-2006, 04:59
Ok, I'm going to open this up with a little fact about game design. Letís say you design a board game and you want to see it published. You submit it to lets say Fantasy Flights (a great game company). The good people at FF look at your game and see it has a few hundred parts including cards, tokens, pieces, rule books, board sections, whatever. FF then tells you they are not interested, there are too many parts.

The reason for this is because when a company produces a game every part in the box increases the manufacturing costs almost expediential. The lesson is, if you are going to make a board game for market, ask yourself if every piece in your game is necessary.

So, with that out of the way, I'm under the impression that the reason GW pulled specialsts games is because they cost a lot to make, have little return, and take up tons of shelf space needed for the three core games.

My idea is that GW shouldn't make so much extra junk for the SGs. It's cool that there are tons of teams for blood bowl, gangs for necromunda, and tribes for gorkamorka. But, do we really need them? Why dosen't GW use the $45 US WHFB/40K/LOTR core box sets as a template for Specialist Games?

Imagine mordhiem being $45 US, comming with a mini rulebook, and two multi-part human sprues. And that's it. No tons of blisters, no tons of terrain box sets and supplement books. Just the one box. Low on cost, takes up no shelf space at your local GW, and will actually see a return. You want to play skaven or undead or orcs? Then they should just put conversion articles in the rulebook or WD.

Are we really sacrificing that much by dropping all the extra blisters and suplements form SG? Space Hulk, Necromunda, Mordhiem, GorkaMorka, and BloodBowl could all easily return as games in a box. A couple pieces of terrain, just enough minis to play, and a mini-book is all we really need. The rest can be done through WD and conversions. Conversions are half the fun of GW games.

The only games that wouldn't work are Epic and Warmaster, so I don' know what to do about those.

Chaos and Evil
30-08-2006, 07:19
WD don't do rules anymore.

They also don't do articles that aren't supporting the latest releases or big sellers.


So basically, without the constant updates from WD (Which will never happen under the current WD ethos) your plan is missing an essential component.

Crube
30-08-2006, 08:57
Also, GW are minitures company, and produce games that require you to purcahse additional armies/minis....

I dont currently play Mordheim, but if i did, I'd play chaos, or undead, and like the diversity that the extra models give.

i think by limiting the extra armie to conversions, you'd be alienating a large proportion of your customers...As you say, though, i wouldnt work for Epic, Warmaster, or Inquisitor really...

Jedi152
30-08-2006, 09:14
What i genuinely don't understand is why they don't stick the older rules either on the SG site, or bung them on a disc and flog them.

They'll have all the books as pdf's on their computers, so just make them available. They've done it for the major ones, so why not the rest? We've heard that GorkaMorka is coming, a move that i fully applaud GW for, but we want more! :)

Take Warhammer Quest as an example. Put the rulebook, roleplay book, dungeon floor tiles and character sets on the site, or on a disc and sell them. Be sure to inform people that the will have to print their own templates, and buy their mini's from the WFB line. What's wrong with that?

Chiron
30-08-2006, 09:22
I would love them to put WHQ on the site, I already have the rulebook but I need the roleplay book to convince people to play, what warhammer lacks is a decent rpg aspect and that puts some potential players off as all they see is the battles

and yes I know about the RPG books, but you need more than 2/3 people to play those :(

10th clancannach rangers
30-08-2006, 10:29
The problem with producing only as single boxed game for games such as mordheim and necromunda is that they have a strong campaign element so the minis you need will constantly change.

Chiron
30-08-2006, 10:47
which is why it'd be nice to see some accessory sprues available in a blister pack, just 3/4 sprues with different guns/weapons on for each game system (40k and fantasy)

either metal or plastic, its all good

orangesm
30-08-2006, 12:52
Your ideas are great for the games that our on the standard Scale. But what about BFG, E:A, Warmaster, & LOTR Battle of Five Armies?

These are at different scales than the core games and would need support just as much as the games you mentioned - if not more because of the scale difference.

The parts required for Epic aside from Armies are Rulebook, Dice, Blastmarkers, Order Dice, Blast templates. Yes it is alot of stuff, but aside from the the rulebook all of it can be used in other games. The Dice are standard, the Blastmarkers & Order Dice can be used in Gothic. The templates are the standard that are used throughout the range of GW games. This is something GW has a good job of doing, making items for games that are used in multiple games.

precinctomega
03-09-2006, 19:54
I'm under the impression that the reason GW pulled specialsts games is because they cost a lot to make, have little return, and take up tons of shelf space needed for the three core games.

Then you are under a false impression. GW had a policy of pushing out occasional "niche" games as spin-offs from their Big Two (now Big Three) games. It was routine to support these for a short period and then gradually drop them. The objective of these games was primarily to boost interest in a particular games system or race. Space Hulk (40K, Marines) and Gorkamorka (40K, Orks) are the classic examples.

They give a good excuse to shake out the mental cobwebs on various background topics, break in a bunch of new designers, artists and sculptors and boost the bottom line. Ultimately, though, the rules were often clunky or imperfect or the game suffered from other obvious flaws that undermined the long-term viability of the game.

Over time, despite this, some of these games proved curiously durable and so Specialist Games was formed, to look after the principle seven games and maintain a "low level" central support (one full time staffer). New models for these ranges remain a means of breaking in new sculptors.

[I feel that I should add that at least two of the SG games were "pet projects" - Inquisitor for Gav Thorpe and Warmaster for Rick Priestley - that were almost vanity projects... except fortunately the designers were so good that they work... well, WM works, anyway...]

Other popular games were considered for inclusion. The main three were Space Hulk, Gorkamorka and Man O' War. They weren't included for one, big reason:


They'll have all the books as pdf's on their computers, so just make them available.

No, they haven't. They don't have electronic copies of the original rules. They lost them quite a long time ago. However, to be fair, they have put out rules for Kill Team: Space Hulk, along with free floor plans; and they are apparently going to put the rules of GM up for free download (they found them somewhere - apparently, they were quite surprised). I've not seen this yet, so if anyone has a linky, please post it.

R.

DisruptorX
03-09-2006, 19:58
All these games require more models than you think, as you have to constantly convert new members to your force, as well as swap weapons and such on old members.

Also, how can you "lose" the rules to older games? I have a copy of Gorkamorka right here, can't be all that hard to scan into a PC and save as a pdf.

revford
03-09-2006, 20:55
There was a rumour floating about on here that Specialist Games were hanging on to Gorkamorka until the new Ork codex is done, so they can release it as a promotional thing for new ork models.

t-tauri
03-09-2006, 22:46
Most of the early games-Space Hulk first edition, Warhammer Quest-were done before digital publishing became commonplace and were pasted up and then copied. The copies were lost with a move as I understand it so any reprint would have to be done using effectively scanned files which would be a little amateurish.

precinctomega
04-09-2006, 16:06
Indeed. GW has high production values. Given the choice between "put out something half-a**ed" and "put out nothing", they usually choose the latter.

Note that that was with respect to "prodction values", nothing else.

R.

Osbad
05-09-2006, 12:32
Conversions are half the fun of GW
Conversions are the work of the devil. Life's too short to spend much of it making stuff the company can't be bothered to...
If I can't buy it off the shelf, I can't be bothered.

Brandir
05-09-2006, 13:02
There is another issue with the older games. GW does not necessarily own the rights to all the artwork in these games. The artwork can include the box art, counters, rulebooks and maps.

In the early days GW used a lot of freelancers and secured the reproduction rights for a limited time or in a certain format. GW do not necessarily own the rights to reproduce these images digitally.

Grimshawl
05-09-2006, 18:14
Ok, I'm going to open this up with a little fact about game design. Let’s say you design a board game and you want to see it published. You submit it to lets say Fantasy Flights (a great game company). The good people at FF look at your game and see it has a few hundred parts including cards, tokens, pieces, rule books, board sections, whatever. FF then tells you they are not interested, there are too many parts.

The reason for this is because when a company produces a game every part in the box increases the manufacturing costs almost expediential. The lesson is, if you are going to make a board game for market, ask yourself if every piece in your game is necessary.

So, with that out of the way, I'm under the impression that the reason GW pulled specialsts games is because they cost a lot to make, have little return, and take up tons of shelf space needed for the three core games.

My idea is that GW shouldn't make so much extra junk for the SGs. It's cool that there are tons of teams for blood bowl, gangs for necromunda, and tribes for gorkamorka. But, do we really need them? Why dosen't GW use the $45 US WHFB/40K/LOTR core box sets as a template for Specialist Games?

Imagine mordhiem being $45 US, comming with a mini rulebook, and two multi-part human sprues. And that's it. No tons of blisters, no tons of terrain box sets and supplement books. Just the one box. Low on cost, takes up no shelf space at your local GW, and will actually see a return. You want to play skaven or undead or orcs? Then they should just put conversion articles in the rulebook or WD.

Are we really sacrificing that much by dropping all the extra blisters and suplements form SG? Space Hulk, Necromunda, Mordhiem, GorkaMorka, and BloodBowl could all easily return as games in a box. A couple pieces of terrain, just enough minis to play, and a mini-book is all we really need. The rest can be done through WD and conversions. Conversions are half the fun of GW games.

The only games that wouldn't work are Epic and Warmaster, so I don' know what to do about those.

The short anser to this " Are we really sacrificing that much by dropping all the extra stuff is YES!!!" get rid of everything that makes these games worthwhile and you might as well not bother.
Tell you what go back to playing a game of chess, okay now you and your opponet remove all the pcs for the next game except the kings and pawns. Something lacking in this second game? sure would be. Thats what it would be like.

precinctomega
06-09-2006, 11:31
^^^ What?

R.

DisruptorX
06-09-2006, 14:58
Conversions are the work of the devil. Life's too short to spend much of it making stuff the company can't be bothered to...
If I can't buy it off the shelf, I can't be bothered.

What? :confused:

This is a joke post, right?

rkunisch
06-09-2006, 17:33
What? :confused:

This is a joke post, right?
Why? Because not everybody has the time or the talent to convert minis? If I could buy reasonable pre-painted minis, I would most likely do so. There are too much aspects of the hobby to do everything - especially if you have a family and a job.

Have fun,

Rolf.