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Ethereal
31-08-2006, 00:35
Me and my friend had a huge argument in a games workshop store over this one. I had placed a large unit of swordsmen along side my great cannon. They were touching its artillery base (textured move tray filled with thick card and slots for crew textured and painted.) when i rolled a misfire (the really bad one). I removed the canon only but he insisted i remove the swordsmen as well. It says clearly in the rulebook to remove models in base contact, but seing as there is no size limit for artillary bases does it mean the crews bases? W asked the staff and they said they didnt know so we rolled for it and i lost. What should have happened?

EvC
31-08-2006, 01:21
Even if he is correct (And I think dicing off was a perfectly reasonable way of deciding it), then if the rules say to remove the models in base-to-base then you should have only removed those swordsmen in contact with the cannon, I hope you didn't remove the entire unit..!

Ethereal
31-08-2006, 01:55
I did dont worry. but what if the base had been slightly smaller, then they wouldnt have been in base contact, and thats reasonable considering there is no standard for artillery bases, they should release some...

mageith
31-08-2006, 02:31
It says clearly in the rulebook to remove models in base contact

Where does it say that?

Ethereal
31-08-2006, 03:20
on the misfire chart it says "remove the cannon and its crew and any other models in base contact from the game"

Ethereal
31-08-2006, 03:21
or maybe thats in empire army book but it is somewhere

Krusk
31-08-2006, 04:02
Well, next time, place the Swordsmen as close as you can to the base without them being "in contact". Just resolve what "in Btb contact" means with your opponent, and stick to it.

Ethereal
31-08-2006, 04:05
ok ill do that next time

mageith
31-08-2006, 05:26
on the misfire chart it says "remove the cannon and its crew and any other models in base contact from the game"
Where? Not on page 123 in my first edition. Maybe there's a change I'm not aware of? The bold part isn't in mine.

If it's there in your edition, do what the rule says and remove the MODELS in base contact. But since charging units are supposed to line up on the crew and not the cannon it can only refer to characters and engineers that have joined the crew unless you've moved your swordsman unit so close that some are actually touching the cannon.

Learn something new everyday.

Mage Ith

squiggoth
31-08-2006, 05:44
Erm ..... Do Cannons actually HAVE bases?
As far as I know, most (or all) War Machines are basically 'baseless' ....

mageith
31-08-2006, 06:10
Erm ..... Do Cannons actually HAVE bases?
As far as I know, most (or all) War Machines are basically 'baseless' ....

It only takes one model with a base to be in base contact.

Now if the rule said base-to-base contact, you'd have a point. :)

Devil's Advocate

Avian
31-08-2006, 08:35
or maybe thats in empire army book but it is somewhere
I'd be very happy if you can quote a page for this.

eldrak
31-08-2006, 09:11
Uhm, different units are not supposed to be in b2b unless they have charged each other.
You had decided before the game that the movement trays counted as the size of the unit to all it's sides?

I think you got cheated here, big time.

T10
31-08-2006, 11:40
Wow. I've never really thought about studying the text of the misfire charts in such detail. I never knew I could just keep the crew slightly away and thus have them survive the destruction of the cannon.

-T10

blurred
31-08-2006, 12:00
Page 123 of BRB (misfire chart): The cannon is destroyed and its crew slain or injured. Remove the cannon and its crew.

Empire army book doesn't say anything about cannons really. Just that their rules are on the page 122-123 on the BRB.


I never knew I could just keep the crew slightly away and thus have them survive the destruction of the cannon.

:eyebrows: Read above.

T10
31-08-2006, 12:10
But it
... says clearly in the rulebook to remove models in base contact

:)

-T10

mageith
31-08-2006, 13:07
Uhm, different units are not supposed to be in b2b unless they have charged each other.

Where's that rule?

I think you are probably thinking of the one inch rule that applies only to ENEMY units("opposing troops"). (55)

generulpoleaxe
31-08-2006, 13:25
artillery do not have bases.

the models to be removed are the crew and any other models touching the offending artillery piece.

if your regular oponents get realy anal about things like this, don't play them.
or take the mickey out of there small willies, as they are obviously trying to make up for something.

TheWarSmith
31-08-2006, 14:08
When would anybody be in base contact with the cannon then? The crew maybe, but they're removed anyway, so it's moot. Enemies could never really be in base contact, and even if they were, it could never misfire with them there to get this result.

Now if it said "models within d3 inches" or something similar, that might be different.

Can you actually have friendly models in different units touching?

DarkTerror
31-08-2006, 14:26
It doesn't say you can't, does it?

Avian
31-08-2006, 14:28
Sure you can.


Again I'd be very grateful if people can provide a page reference for this "remove all models in base contact" rule I have not heard of before.

Festus
31-08-2006, 16:54
Hi

There is no page reference, as there is no rule... :(

Festus

DarkTerror
31-08-2006, 17:17
In short, the poster got screwed

EvC
31-08-2006, 17:30
Wow, so these two players had a huge argument, consulted the staff, dice-offed for the solution when they hadn't done the very first thing they're meant to and check the rulebook itself? Whoops :)

Revlid
31-08-2006, 18:16
Yes it does. Different units (i.e the cannon and the swordsmen) have to be at least 1" apart at all times.

blurred
31-08-2006, 18:56
Different units (i.e the cannon and the swordsmen) have to be at least 1" apart at all times.

No. No they don't. You could post some references to rules along with your shady interpretations.

Festus
31-08-2006, 19:22
Hi

Yes it does. Different units (i.e the cannon and the swordsmen) have to be at least 1" apart at all times.
utter nonsense, I am afraid :(

enemy models have to be kept 1" apart (except in a charge or in a close combat). Your own troops have no such issue with coming closer ;)

Festus

EvC
31-08-2006, 19:42
Indeed, the entire mechanics of combat would have to be changed if friendly units were not allowed to be next to each other, as in fact you have to maximise models in contact with the enemy during fighting, so if you have two of your units in combat with one enemy unit, they'll need to touch a lot of the time...

ZomboCom
31-08-2006, 21:15
This whole thread is utter bunk.

There is no rule that models in base contact with the cannon are killed when it explodes.

When a cannon explodes it destroys only the cannon and it's crew.

That's it.

End of argument.

Crazy Harborc
01-09-2006, 00:24
Um.....cannons and other artillery/warmachines don't come with bases except for the crew. IMHO, that alone says basing up the machine/cannon/whatever is NOT required.

Simple solution is to NOT put friendly units in BtB contact with frinedly war machines OR their crew for that matter.

T10
01-09-2006, 07:09
Simple solution is to NOT put friendly units in BtB contact with friendly war machines OR their crew for that matter.

Yep, that should protect them from the exploding cannon and the rule from no-where.

-T10

DeathlessDraich
01-09-2006, 18:38
Since no one is willing to quote, maybe this will end the debate.

Pg123 Misfire chart:
"1 Destroyed. The cannon explodes with a mighty crack. Shards etc... The cannon is destroyed and the crew are slain or injured. Remove the cannon and its crew."


1" rules:

Pg 55 1" apart:
"opposing troops have to be kept at least 1" apart ...models which approach to within 1" are halted 1" away... This rule is ignored during charge moves"

Pg 118 Warmachines: "Crew must be kept within 1" of the machine to count as crew"

No ambiguity here.

eldrak
04-09-2006, 22:17
Interesting, my BRB says "opposing troops are kept at least 1" apart when they are not fighting. ..."

Are people playing with this stop as soon as within 1"or do you let units trough as long as they don't end within 1"?

Weird i really thought you weren't allowed to put your own units in B2B, I'll have to devise some cunning underhand tactic for taking advantage of this.

Can anyone give me a quote from the rulebook where it says that you can't move trough your own troops? I can't find anything other than that it's implied in the flyer section.

GodHead
04-09-2006, 23:01
Weird i really thought you weren't allowed to put your own units in B2B, I'll have to devise some cunning underhand tactic for taking advantage of this.


The cunning underhanded tactic is to put your necromancer or heirophant in a unit of zombies/skeletons, and train it directly behind and touching a unit immediately in front of it so no one can contact your valuable spellcasters.

mageith
05-09-2006, 00:58
Can anyone give me a quote from the rulebook where it says that you can't move trough your own troops? I can't find anything other than that it's implied in the flyer section.
That's not the question.

We can only do what the rules say we can do.

Is there anywhere the rules indicate we can move through our own trooops? Not to my knowledge--at least not in this version.

Been answering questions for six years and this is the first time this has come up.

There recently was a related question about moving a unit partially, then moving another then finishing the movement of the first. Most of the posters thought this was OK.

Mage Ith

Crazy Harborc
05-09-2006, 01:26
Well, since 7th Edition is out/comes out THIS week, I'm not going to look it up, in 6th. It was/is IN 6th Edition that you do not do normal/march/charge moves thru/thourgh friendly units. It was in 4th and 5th as well.

mageith
05-09-2006, 05:04
Well, since 7th Edition is out/comes out THIS week, I'm not going to look it up, in 6th. It was/is IN 6th Edition that you do not do normal/march/charge moves thru/thourgh friendly units. It was in 4th and 5th as well.
Well charging is a different issue. Charges take place in a strict order so moving through other units wouldn't be allowed. In the other thread no one came up with a quote that required movement in any particular order nor requiring all movement to be done before another unit was moved.

The rule I cited was: "...it is good practice to agree what you are doing with your opponent before moving troops." (47)

Most of the folks in the thread didn't see a problem with moving stopping and moving again as long as everything was clear. Some did find a problem with it.

If it is in 6v it will probably be the same rule in 7v. I'd be interested to know where it is.

I suppose it could be inferred from this: "...you can move them as short or as great distance as you like up to their permitted maximum move distance." (46)
that you move each unit's Movement allowance all at once.

Mage Ith

peteratwar
05-09-2006, 07:28
GW issued a listing of all base sizes which included artillery I believe.

Milgram
05-09-2006, 07:37
yes, but even though the artillery was listet, there were no base sizes for them. warmachines normally don't have bases, even though I (and many others) base them.