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Sir_Lunchalot
31-08-2006, 17:22
I'm primarily a 40k player. My forays into Fantasy have been a number of army books and a regiment to match each. I also collected a rather useless Khornate army. Now I'm thinking of getting back into fantasy, again with Chaos mortals. I love everything about the army, be it the fluff, the models, and the general idea of northern barbarian killing machines. Anyways I know my khornate list failed because of a number of problems.

1) too many characters. I spent about, possibly more on characters than on units.
2) I never won combat. I don't care if I got four kills. when the enemy has 3 ranks a standard and unit strength plus their kill, you can only do so much. This can be blamed on 12 man regiments and flank charges.
3) the guy I played 90% of the time is a ruthless powergamer. I should probably find opponents who are as clueless as I am, at least while I figure out what the heck I'm doing.

So, this in mind, I made the following list using the rules for Archaon's Horde.

LORDS

Chaos Lord with chaos runesword, gaze of the gods, shield, Dragon of Chaos
673 pts

HEROES

Aspiring champion of Chaos (80) barded chaos steed (16) enchanted shield (10)
106 pts

CORE

Warriors of Chaos
20 warriors with hand weapon, heavy armor, and shield. Free command group for numbering over 16.
300 pts

Warriors of Chaos
20 warriors with hand weapon, heavy armor, and shield. Free command group for numbering over 16.
300 pts

Knights of Chaos
10 knights, full command.
380 pts

RARE

Chaos spawn
2 spawn
120 pts

Chaos spawn
2 spawn
120 pts

The Chaos lord on a dragon is in response to the rumors of there being a new plastic dragon, like the new giant, in the works. Really that's all abotu having an 'uber killing machine on a dragon. that's taken for the cool factor first, strategic uses second.

The main tactic is to advance the army as a solid block, knights in the middle, flanked by the warriors, who are themselves using the spawn as flank guards. The knights will always declare a charge, they'll end up a couple inches behind the warriors until they turn out to be in range. then the knights will either a) murder the unit they hit, plow through the enemy and get behind the enemy's lines to play Merry Hell with his army, or b) not break through, get charged on both flanks, hold anyways (T4 and a 1+ save counts for a lot) and then let the flank charging units get crushed when each of them take a unit of 20 warriors on the flanks. Even if the enemy doesn't go for the flank charge the knights trick, I've still got 20 man units of chaos warriors, which should be able to do serious damage anyways.

The Chaos Lord will have different stratagies depending on what the enemy has. If he's got fast cavalry to get behind my lines, I'll leave the lord behind my army to charge them. And that'll be the end, because if they flee, with the new fleeing rules, it'll be directly into my army. if they stand and fight, it's a chaos lord on a dragon versus lightly armed and armored troops. game over. If I'm fighting Empire, He'll try to get behind the army to get rid of that artillery. The chaos lord is basically the wild card to use as needed.

samw
31-08-2006, 18:35
Right. You've got to understand you have a choice here. Keep the lord, and buy loads of cheap troops to balance it out, or keep the heavy hitters and ditch the Lord to allow you to have some semblance of an army. I would actually do both.

Units of 10 knights are not worth it. You are paying 190 pts for +1 combat res! Cut it down to 5/6, make them chosen, they'll rip through anything far better.

Your chaos lord should never, EVER, be used to discourage fast-cav. He's 673 pts man! Your average fast cav unit comes in around 100. It's your opponent who's laughing when they get charged, because he's taken your lord out of the game for a turn.

Warriors, other than possibly a small unit of chosen as flankers, are not worth it either. You want marauders mate, and lots of them. This is Archaon's HORDE, you've been given the opportunity, now grab some big 25 strong blocks of marauders and show the enemy what it's like to be outnumbered. Nab yourself some marauder horse (flails, nothing else except a musician) and lots of warhounds for shielding, baiting and redirecting. Turn your aspiring into a Battle Standard Bearer to hold the line, especially with banner of the gods, that's a doozy, though not essential.

So (working of the points values as I remember) You should have something like:

Even with the Lord as you described

Aspiring champ BSB-105pts + whatever you wanna give him

Core-3 units of 25 HW&S marauders at 175pts each due to free command=525pts

5 warhounds-30pts

5 warhounds 30pts

5 warhounds 30pts

(Marauder horse with flails are 17pts a piece aren't they?)

5 marauder horseman, flails, musician-80pts (?)

5 marauder horseman, flails, musician-80pts (?)

Special

6 chosen knights with full command=320pts

Rare

2 spawn

That's 110 models WITH a dragon. I'm not saying this list is perfect by any means, but it's to give you an idea of the kind of thing you need to do if you want a dragon, otherwise you will simply be overwhelmed. And this is with no magic defence!

Sir_Lunchalot
31-08-2006, 19:35
Okay. I don't want to get rid of the warriors, or the Lord, the combination of the two is what makes me want to do the army in the first place. I dropped the knights down to a 5 man chosen unit, got rid of the champion with them, and I dropped one of the units of spawn. I took warhounds, marauder horsemen, and marauders.

Here's the new list

LORDS

Chaos Lord with chaos runesword, gaze of the gods, shield, Dragon of Chaos
673 pts

CORE

Warriors of Chaos
20 warriors with hand weapon, heavy armor, and shield. Free command group for numbering over 16.
300 pts

Warriors of Chaos
20 warriors with hand weapon, heavy armor, and shield. Free command group for numbering over 16.
300 pts

Marauders of Chaos
25 marauders, hand weapon, shield, free command.
150 models

5 warhounds
30 pts

5 warhounds
30 pts

5 warhounds
30 pts

Marauder horsemen
5 horsemen with flails, Shields musician
91 pts

Special

Chosen Knights of Chaos
5 Chosen knights, full command.
275 pts

RARE

Chaos spawn
2 spawn
120 pts

total: 1999 pts

The shields on the marauder horsemen are because I had 10 pts left and nothing else to spend it on. What do you think of the new list?

Voltaire
31-08-2006, 19:52
I would drop the Warhounds and get a second unit of Marauders identical to your first.

samw
31-08-2006, 20:03
If he drops the warhounds he has nothing to bait with or divert the enemy, they are one of the best units point for point in the chaos force, I wish my brets had access to them. Even if he did, it wouldn't give him the points needed for more marauders.

It is better I'll grant. The problem with chaos warriors though is you just can't get the kills. With the new 5 to a rank rule as soon as you lose one guy you're probably losing combat by 2, and 6 attacks just isn't enought to claw that back. Anyway, if you really want to keep them, use them in units of 18, three ranks of 6 would be my advice. If you want to have that many warriors and the dragon though, and still have an effective army, you're gonna have to play at 3K. You currently have zero magic defense, and without it you're gonna get creamed by the undead, tzeentch, high elves or any other magic heavy army. You're too slow to avoid being pasted by warmachines or flanked by cavalry. Yes, the dragon is very scary, but when people know the rest of your army will be 4 turns getting to them, they can afford to throw everything they have at it.

Voltaire
31-08-2006, 20:08
What utter tosh. Chaos Warriors can take a charge and deal out damage in a good way. Bearing in mind that there is a good chance of you being defeated by the Undead, there is an equally high chance that by using your Dragon you will be able to defeat the enemy general before you can say 'Jack Flash'. High Elves are going to suffer majorly against Warriors as it is. Tzeentch Chaos & Lizardmen are the only places I see you suffering, but even then that would be an uphill struggle against your Dragon because going magic heavy will leave you with a unit that will win the game for you if you Break it. I like your army a lot and believe it has a lot of potential for damage at a 2K level. It encompasses the Chaos "Small & Fighty" style that I play with. That and you use the same combo on your Lord as I use.

samw
31-08-2006, 20:51
I speak only from my own experience. Chaos warriors unless chosen or Khorne do not dish out enough attacks to win combats owing to the nature of combat resolution. They do very well against (non-Bretonnian) cavalry. However not only does a unit of 20 cost more than your average unit of heavy cav, but any general that charges them head on with one is an idiot. 6 WS5 St4 attacks does indeed sound good. However that comes out at between 1 and 2 kills depending on opponent. You will usually be outnumbered, and in your 4 turn slog across the field I'd be amazed if you hadn't lost 1 guy, a fact even more pronounced if you drop the warhounds.

The odds against undead are miniscule. Most undead armies pack around 9 PD plus the Book of Arkhan. He'll summon a unit on your flank and propel it in, and either tarpit you or autobreak you depending on how much he contributes to the effort. If you try and succeed in a charge against his general's unit, which I doubt when a unit can be summoned to give you no-where to land, he'll push the unit champ out. Next it's his turn and you get smashed in the rear by a unit of summoned zombies, or even better flanked by another ranked unit with another champion to push out. Even if you do smite the vamp, which is touch and go depending on the variant, you'll be losing combat by a considerable margin.

High Elves do not suffer against warriors because they simply don't fight them. They run rings around them, march-block them with Shadow warriors, divert them with great eagles, pepper them with RBT's and crush them with magic. Ring of Corin on that lord anybody?

This is really hero-hammer, and all it takes is for one unit to not break when that dragon charges and it's game over. A BSB, a stubborn/unbreakable unit, a Ld 9/10 general nearby, all could spell your doom. And that's not mentioning the bolt-throwers, cannons, rock lobbers and handgunners who will all be firing your way, BECAUSE THEY HAVE 4 TURNS BEFORE THE BULK OF THE ARMY GETS TO THEM!!!

Without magic defence, you either need the numbers to absorb it (O&G, skaven) or the speed to get their quickly (Brets, all cav lists). Either bulk up, and drop the warriors for marauders, or turn them into knight and run an all cav list with the dragon. Vanilla Chaos warriors, in my opinion of playing with and against them, are not worth the points.

Voltaire
31-08-2006, 22:09
Well, I am an advocate of using extra hand weapons on Warriors and upgrading them to Chosen so I won't argue. Though I do have 2 15 strong units in my Undivided army which have been serving as the anchor for a further faster contingent.

CrimsonFOX
01-09-2006, 01:26
I don't want to sound rude, but I'm going to ignore the positives and only point out the negatives I see because those actually help you. Saying "oh this is a great list!" isn't productive! :)

The chaos runesword is not worth the points at all. Get a great fang (out of the Beasts of Chaos book) for 50 points, it ignores armor saves. It also sounds a bit hypocritical to call your friend a powergamer and then take a Chaos lord on a dragon.

The spawn are fun to play with, I always recommend having as many of them as you can fit. Too bad you can't upgrade them in Archaon's Horde.

I'd recommend giving the marauders on foot flails, otherwise they're pretty wussy and never seem to do any damage for me.

Perhaps eliminate one unit of hounds. Having too many of them around is a liability because of their low leadership, they flee and cause other units to follow. With two units of five you can normally give them enough breathing room from your other units.

Warriors good, chosen knights good, marauder horsemen all look good. If you decide to drop the dragon I'd recommend putting aspiring champions in your foot units and the lord on a chaos steed or daemonic mount in with your knights.


Okay. I don't want to get rid of the warriors, or the Lord, the combination of the two is what makes me want to do the army in the first place. I dropped the knights down to a 5 man chosen unit, got rid of the champion with them, and I dropped one of the units of spawn. I took warhounds, marauder horsemen, and marauders.

Here's the new list

LORDS

Chaos Lord with chaos runesword, gaze of the gods, shield, Dragon of Chaos
673 pts

CORE

Warriors of Chaos
20 warriors with hand weapon, heavy armor, and shield. Free command group for numbering over 16.
300 pts

Warriors of Chaos
20 warriors with hand weapon, heavy armor, and shield. Free command group for numbering over 16.
300 pts

Marauders of Chaos
25 marauders, hand weapon, shield, free command.
150 models

5 warhounds
30 pts

5 warhounds
30 pts

5 warhounds
30 pts

Marauder horsemen
5 horsemen with flails, Shields musician
91 pts

Special

Chosen Knights of Chaos
5 Chosen knights, full command.
275 pts

RARE

Chaos spawn
2 spawn
120 pts

total: 1999 pts

The shields on the marauder horsemen are because I had 10 pts left and nothing else to spend it on. What do you think of the new list?

^DrAgOn^
01-09-2006, 02:28
A good combo I have found with a lord on a dragon is - Gaze of the gods, beserker blade (Because the dragon is so big) and the armour of damnation (This is just plain awesome with such a high WS). :)

Sir_Lunchalot
01-09-2006, 02:28
Okay, I'm not going to drop the warriors because they're half the reason I like the army. No warriors means I won't bother. I also won't drop the dragon, that's the other half of the reason for doing the army. What I will do is tweak the warriors and the lord and play around with everything else. I switched the weapon on the lord, also gave him an enchanted shield with the leftover points from the army. I also gave the marauders light armor and flails, and dropped one of the warhound units. I also dropped the shields from the marauder horsemen to give the enchanted shield to the chaos lord.

And he is a powergamer, he's said it himself. it was actually my powergaming friend who poitned out that I might want to start agaisnt non-power gamers. This is one instance where I use the phrase power gamer without any negative connotation. It's simply the most accurate word.

Here's the updated list

LORDS

Chaos Lord with Great Fang, gaze of the gods, Enchanted shield, Dragon of Chaos
660 pts

CORE

Warriors of Chaos
20 warriors with hand weapon, heavy armor, and shield. Free command group for numbering over 16.
300 pts

Warriors of Chaos
20 warriors with hand weapon, heavy armor, and shield. Free command group for numbering over 16.
300 pts

Marauders of Chaos
25 marauders, hand weapon, flail, light armor, shield, free command.
200 points

5 warhounds
30 pts

5 warhounds
30 pts

Marauder horsemen
5 horsemen with flails, musician
81 pts

Special

Chosen Knights of Chaos
5 Chosen knights, full command.
275 pts

RARE

Chaos spawn
2 spawn
120 pts

total: 1996 pts

samw
01-09-2006, 02:53
I never got the love afair with the great fang. Sure it's great in BoC lists which can have trouble popping armour, but on a lord on a dragon? At st6 (with the Runesword) you're negating anything at 4+ or worse already. And there are far more T4 things out there than 3+ armour save critters. I'd rather grab a halberd and spend the points on more doggies.

I say it again, this will be a tough list to win with.