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DeathlessDraich
03-09-2006, 08:25
This may well be clearer in 7th but from my brief perusal, I don't think it is.
Please feel free to try to solve the problem using the 6th or 7th as well.

I can foresee this occuring more often with wider frontages in 7th.

W= warriors, A = Archers allied with the warriors, K = Knights, dots are to make the spacing similar to the actual situation, with the Knights in the flank arc of the warriors.

........................WWWW
........................WWWW
........................WWWW
................AAAA
............KKK.K.K.K

The knights destroy the archers in the first turn and overran. They clip the warriors.

Warrior player: "Thats a failed charge because the knights are in the warrior's flank and they hit the front"

Knight player: "In that case, the knights should be placed in the Warriors' flank"

Me: "An overrun move cannot wheel, it moves "directly". "All the rules governing charges apply" (except charge response & psychology). It cannot be a failed charge because "the overrunning unit must charge the enemy" and it's movement easily brings it into contact with a unit. To be a flank charge it must reach the flank, however, which it doesn't.

The clipping 'rules' were used eventually and the charge was frontal.

Is this correct?

This might easily occur in pursuit into fresh enemy.
If the Knights were placed at the Archers position instead, with no archers, normal charge declaration itself is problematic.

Atrahasis
03-09-2006, 08:42
Not having the 7th rules to refer to, I can't make a definitive call, but "All the rules governing charges apply" would suggest that you get to wheel once.

It depends on any test that might accompany "directly".

Neknoh
03-09-2006, 09:10
The 7th edition rules makes this completely obsolete, both players will be forced to adjust their fighting ranks so that a maximum number of models from each side can get into combat.

Atrahasis
03-09-2006, 09:15
The 7th edition rules makes this completely obsolete, both players will be forced to adjust their fighting ranks so that a maximum number of models from each side can get into combat.

It is true that when charging the charger must endeavour to bring as many of BOTH SIDES models into combat, but if there is something preventing maximisation, there is no requirement to "shuffle" units to make it possible.

Neknoh
03-09-2006, 11:22
I actually think it says that you are allowed to shuffle both units if that would bring more models into combat

Avian
04-09-2006, 08:13
I actually think it says that you are allowed to shuffle both units if that would bring more models into combat
Yep. Does anyone but me wonder what "allowed" means in this context? Does it mean that both players agree or what?
If it is done regardless I can forsee a lot of abuse created by awkward charges that force the target unit to align.

Atrahasis
04-09-2006, 08:16
If it is forced them I am definitely starting that Khorne cavalry army.

T10
04-09-2006, 09:15
If I understand the diagram correctly, the Knights will clip the Warriors if moving straight forward. However, as they start their move in a position to charge the flank, that the side on which they engage the enemy.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to recall that there was an article in the latest chronicles that covered a similar situation. It stated that a unit making a pursuit/overrun could only engage a fresh enemy if that enemy was in the direct path of the unit. However, if such was the case the overrunning unit was allowed a single wheel (as per a normal charge) to bring more models into combat.

You are also allowed a free wheel to align your unit with the target unit. Even if moving straight forward means contacting the target unit to the front, I see no reason why you should not be allowed to wheel (or rather: spin) the greater part of your unit into the target's flank, even if this means pulling back the models making the initial contact.

The end result is that you a) bring more models into the fight and b) engage the target unit on the appropriate flank. All good.

-T10

DeathlessDraich
04-09-2006, 20:11
You are also allowed a free wheel to align your unit with the target unit. Even if moving straight forward means contacting the target unit to the front, I see no reason why you should not be allowed to wheel (or rather: spin) the greater part of your unit into the target's flank, even if this means pulling back the models making the initial contact.
-T10

That would be allowed in a normal charge. There is similar problem in the scenario below **.

The overrun rules:
"When moving an overrunning unit, the player must endeavour to bring as many models into combat...This can usually be achieved by moving them straight forward but it will sometimes necessary to wheel the unit to face the enemy."

The wheel is only allowed for the final alignment or to maximise models. This is not the same as the single wheel allowed during charging
I don't think a flank charge can be accepted.

** The wide unit close to the long unit:
The Knights are in the warriors flank, while the warriors are in the Knights' front arc of sight.

...........WWWW
...........WWWW
...........WWWW
...........WWWW
KKKKKKKWWWW
KKKKKKK


The Knights can charge the warriors but the warriors cannot charge the Knights! :eek:
An unfair situation and both charges should be allowed in accordance with 'Generosity' rules.
Question is would it be front for both to make it fair?

Ganymede
05-09-2006, 02:23
It is true that when charging the charger must endeavour to bring as many of BOTH SIDES models into combat, but if there is something preventing maximisation, there is no requirement to "shuffle" units to make it possible.

After my read through of the rules, it appears that after you wheel to bring as many models into BTB as possible, you shift the charging unit over to create a flush battle-line.

Ganymede
05-09-2006, 02:27
If I understand the diagram correctly, the Knights will clip the Warriors if moving straight forward. However, as they start their move in a position to charge the flank, that the side on which they engage the enemy.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to recall that there was an article in the latest chronicles that covered a similar situation. It stated that a unit making a pursuit/overrun could only engage a fresh enemy if that enemy was in the direct path of the unit. However, if such was the case the overrunning unit was allowed a single wheel (as per a normal charge) to bring more models into combat.

You are also allowed a free wheel to align your unit with the target unit. Even if moving straight forward means contacting the target unit to the front, I see no reason why you should not be allowed to wheel (or rather: spin) the greater part of your unit into the target's flank, even if this means pulling back the models making the initial contact.

The end result is that you a) bring more models into the fight and b) engage the target unit on the appropriate flank. All good.

-T10


That article you mention definetly exists, and I think it would definetly be in the spirit of the rules and that article to allow the model to wheel along the corner at which it makes contact with the enemy unit. If we couldn't do that, then we would have absolutely no way to resolve standard charges who make contact with the corner of an enemy unit.

IronBrother
05-09-2006, 04:06
In seventh edition you do not get to wheel or change facing of any kind when redirecting or overrunning. As mentioned above you "shift" both units to bring the maximum amount of models to fight. In both instances I would think that it would be a front charge.

eldrak
05-09-2006, 13:26
In seventh edition you do not get to wheel or change facing of any kind when redirecting or overrunning. As mentioned above you "shift" both units to bring the maximum amount of models to fight. In both instances I would think that it would be a front charge.

Wouldn't it depend on the angle of contact still? If you touch the corner first you could do the align to the flank, if you connect to the front first it'll be a frontal charge.

DeathlessDraich
05-09-2006, 13:39
Wouldn't it depend on the angle of contact still? If you touch the corner first you could do the align to the flank, if you connect to the front first it'll be a frontal charge.

Touching the exact corner would be a unique case. The non Euclidean corner belongs to both a flank and the front and therefore either charge is permissible if the other conditions are fulfilled.

mageith
05-09-2006, 14:24
Touching the exact corner would be a unique case. The non Euclidean corner belongs to both a flank and the front and therefore either charge is permissible if the other conditions are fulfilled.
Interesting. So you are saying it's where the pursuing unit HITS as opposed to where it STARTS that determines the side of the unit that is charged?

eldrak
05-09-2006, 15:35
Touching the exact corner would be a unique case. The non Euclidean corner belongs to both a flank and the front and therefore either charge is permissible if the other conditions are fulfilled.

It's not an unique case. You hit the one of the corners first almost every time you charge unless the opposing unit is much wider. Where you started your movement decides if you align to the front or the flank.

DeathlessDraich
05-09-2006, 17:05
Interesting. So you are saying it's where the pursuing unit HITS as opposed to where it STARTS that determines the side of the unit that is charged?

No, I did mention "if the other conditions are fulfilled" - other conditions being in which quadrant it started.
In the overrun case above, the knights were in the flank and hits the front, on moving directly forward.
If the knights were slightly angled so they hit the front/flank corner, I think a flank charge would be acceptable.

Do you agree?
What is your opinion about the second scenario depicted at the bottom of post#9?

DeathlessDraich
05-09-2006, 17:16
It's not an unique case. You hit the one of the corners first almost every time you charge unless the opposing unit is much wider.

Probably true, for charges, but you do get to wheel once as well so there'll be no problem in normal charges. I was referring to the overrun scenario which is what Iron brother was referring to and you replied presumably with reference to the same.

Do you agree with my interpretation of
"When moving an overrunning unit, the player must endeavour to bring as many models into combat...This can usually be achieved by moving them straight forward but it will sometimes necessary to wheel the unit to face the enemy."

Secondly, how would you deal with the charge scenario at the bottom of post#9.

Avian
05-09-2006, 17:28
The overrun rules:
"When moving an overrunning unit, the player must endeavour to bring as many models into combat...This can usually be achieved by moving them straight forward but it will sometimes necessary to wheel the unit to face the enemy."

The wheel is only allowed for the final alignment or to maximise models. This is not the same as the single wheel allowed during charging
I am not sure how you came to this conclusion when the designers have gone out of their way to make sure they don't use the word "wheel" when describing the alignment move.

If that is your conclusion. I'm not really sure what you mean.

DeathlessDraich
06-09-2006, 12:53
They did use the word wheel in the description you quoted ...
If however you've interpreted the 'wheel' in the quoted passage as a movement wheel, then how does that square up with "move directly forward" and the word "This" which referred to maximisation from the quoted rules.

Avian
06-09-2006, 14:04
Again I am not sure what you mean. :confused:

If your pursuit / overrun path would bring you into contact with an enemy unit, you charge it. When you charge you must maximise models from both sides fighting. This can sometimes be done by simply moving forward and aligning, but sometimes it will be necessary to wheel before moving forward and aligning.

Festus
06-09-2006, 14:55
Hi

If your pursuit / overrun path would bring you into contact with an enemy unit, you charge it. When you charge you must maximise models from both sides fighting. This can sometimes be done by simply moving forward and aligning, but sometimes it will be necessary to wheel before moving forward and aligning.
My take exactly, and very intuitive to boot :)

Festus

DeathlessDraich
06-09-2006, 18:47
but sometimes it will be necessary to wheel before moving forward and aligning.

"before" is not in the rules as written.
The rules state that "This (maximisation) can usually be done by moving them* straight forward but it will sometimes be necessary to wheel to face the enemy"

*(N.B. models and not the unit)

This is secondary to the main problem which is:

Is the overrun charge (not move) a) allowed b) if so is it a front or flank?

Ganymede
06-09-2006, 23:28
If you start in the flank arc, you have to resolve your charge in the flank arc.

How would I do this? Well, imagine if the enemy unit was on my right, and a straight ahead movement would cause me to clip the front as opposed to the flank. What I would do is wheel along my left corner until the edge of my right corner lined up with the edge of the enemy's corner in a straight-ahead move.

Avian
07-09-2006, 11:11
"before" is not in the rules as written.
Well, no. Sometimes you move, then wheel, then move again, then align. Sorry, I should have specified this.

I still don't think I understand your problem. When you charge as a part of Pursuit into fresh enemy, you still have to maximise the number of models in the combat, just like with any other charge. All it says is that the normal rules apply.
:confused:

Spaco
07-09-2006, 13:41
Do units overrunning that come into contact with friendly units stop in 7th? I had a situation come up where I could of overrun into the rear of an enemy unit, but one of my herds was slightly in the path so we ruled it as not legal.