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Jackal-God
03-09-2006, 17:01
From the "which armies are a pain to win with thread" I am looking for those DE generals that have had success. I have never faced, nor seen a 2000pt DE army in action. So, c'mon.. let me in as to what makes the Druchii tick ;)
Thanks!

Bubble Ghost
03-09-2006, 17:29
In my experience there are as many tricks to winning as there are Dark Elf players. Some people wouldn't dream of leaving the tower without Cold One knights and bolt throwers, some with manticores and hydras and harpies, etc.

Personally, the first thing on my list is always a Cauldron of Blood, and the second thing is a noble on a dark steed. I put banners in my Dark Rider units, which gets me some funny looks, and I also actually use assassins. Despite all this flying in the face of conventional wisdom I seem to do OK. The trick (with all armies, but Dark Elves in particular) is more to pick a theme and make sure your army is very good at it, than picking the killer units.

Jackal-God
03-09-2006, 19:17
Thanks for sharing. My early thoughts were successful DE forces had to have a Dragon, although an infantry heavy Cauldron force is a nice direction.

Tanith Ghost
03-09-2006, 20:49
This may sound rather underhanded, but the secret to my seucess with my druchii force(and by extension my CoS army) is to do effective recon of what I'll be facing, and developing at least three plans to deal with said enemy force.

Dark Elves(and the attached cult) take a backseat to my skaven army and khorne horde, so I don't use them often.

Zethal
04-09-2006, 06:50
As ghost said there are lots of ways to make the Druchii successful. It mostly depends on play style.

Like ghost going into a battle w/o the Cauldron is something almost never do. I use the high leadership mobitly and number of attacks to great effect in my list. I would never go anywhere with out my hag with manbane, this little really expensive unit champ has suprised more opponents then i can count, her damage potential is huge exspecially with the cauldron.

However i have also seen defensive shooty magic list be effective, our archers have the best save we can get on infantry if you spend the points for the shield. Dark Magic is only ok but dominion and chill wind can do very well in the control department.

Theme is important however it will probably take some refining to get the units you want to be the right size and finding the best units you can get to support your favorite ones.

If you have a more specific question i may beable to help more.

Neknoh
04-09-2006, 08:59
Black Guard with Cauldron within range is still one of the things I find kill THE most basic infantry out there, you field them 7 wide + champion, this grants you 8 attacks hitting on 3's, you get to reroll misses all the time, then, you wound on 3's and get to reroll failed wounds, they chew through enemy units like there's no tomorrow, as long as said units does not have a 3+save or better in hth.

Gorbad Ironclaw
04-09-2006, 09:08
Personally I rather like using the Dragon. That, and executioners are the hard center of my army.On the other hand, I don't like anything with Cold Ones(although I recently started using chariots again, on a test basis), or RBTs(overpriced, underpowered and to easy to kill). The Cauldron is nice, but to pricy for me.

On the other hand, Dark Elf warriors, especially the RXB armed ones are a great buy for there point, and they, together with the executioners form the core of my army, with the dragon, and a few dark riders(and I agree with BG here, banners are a good addition) are the mobile part of the army.

Camrion
04-09-2006, 17:19
1500 pt game against Khorne Chaos that featured a Dragon Ogre Shaggoth and a tooled exalted champion in a chosen unit of foot chaos warriors.

Shaggoth goes down to Reaper Bolt Thrower fire on turn 1.

I give the chosen of Khorne their charge against a block of spearmen, only to show off an assassin with additional hand weapon, manbane and hand of Khaine. RIP one Exalted Champion.

Clean up.

Massacre for the Dark Elves

Camrion

sulla
04-09-2006, 22:15
All mounted DE with RBT's and a pair of Manticores are what I use if I want to win...

truthsayer
04-09-2006, 22:28
I use an Infantry heavy list with a cauldron, RBT's, a sorceress or two and chariots.

Only ever used black guard once.. must experiment with them again.

Gen.Steiner
04-09-2006, 22:57
Never fielded it, but I really want to run with my all-Dark Rider army. Repeater Crossbows and rear charges for the win!

Jackal-God
05-09-2006, 02:46
Excellent reads..


All mounted DE with RBT's and a pair of Manticores are what I use if I want to win...

Really!? I would think a large target mount without a scaly save to be difficult to handle.. care to expand on your tactics :)

sulla
12-09-2006, 09:45
Excellent reads..



Really!? I would think a large target mount without a scaly save to be difficult to handle.. care to expand on your tactics :)

You're right, It is risky. I rely on multiple diversions; 2 RBT's, a big block of Knights, a sorceress in one of the dark riders units all to hopefully soak up fire and disjoint the enemy force whie I work the manticores around cover for flank/rear charges. If all goes well, I usually unleash them about the 3rd turn to roll up the enemy flank while the remnants of my force mop up the survivors. If it doesn't go well, I usually end up scraping bits of monster off opponents cannonballs :cries: C'est la vie...
(I usually try to place the largest piece of terrain I have access to right in the centre of the battlefield to aid my big beasties and generally superior manouverability too whenever possible.)

ss_cherubael
12-09-2006, 14:01
i tend to play my DE army in a very different way to most others, i dont use dark riders (also due to the fact that over here in Australia they pulled the box sets off the shelves and u have to get them from the usa or uk.
i over dose on the repeater crossbows (i take about 80 of them in 2000pts) u can put the fear of Khaine into anyone with 160 shots hitting on fours!!!!!!!
I tend to use a solid defensive line with the crossbow men and a strong spearmen unit and then have my 10 strong cold one unit near one flank ready to counter charge and my executioners with a banner of murder (extra charge range) on the other and then you draw the enemy into the trap and smash them in the flanks.
In particularly large games 4000pts or so i dont mind fielding a Dragon for my highborn (i have one i can take one so i will thank u very much,lol). I also try to find room for a hydra and a bolt thrower or two.
I think the key to a good dark elf army and battle plan is knowing more about your opponets army than they do, know their weaknesses but also know their strengths, know what units to use to combat the others the best and make sure YOU charge (unless its spearmen in which case dont worry the rank bonus is worth more!) elves have massive movement and combine that with killing blow and great weapons, and you can eat cavalry or heavy shock troops for lunch. Make sure you kill enough in the first round of combat so they cant attack back, break them and run them into the ground!


my 2cents

Vogon
12-09-2006, 17:29
Hi there

I tend to run a beast heavy army at 2000pts,

Highborn on dragon
Beastmaster on Manticore
Corsairs x 2
Dark Riders x 2
CoKs
CoC
Harpies
Hydra

With this I find timing is crucial if you get that wrong you'll have a hard time winning. If you get it right you're on for a massacre.

The one thing I never leave home without though is the Harpies. I've fielded them in every game I've ever played using Dark Elves and never regretted it. They're great warmachine/mage hunters and with the new "crossfire" rule will be even more of a must have to get them behind enemy lines ready for a fleeing unit :)

If you want a really good website for all things Druchii including all the tactics advice you could ever need try this place

www.druchii.net

and have fun

Vogon

Emresh
12-09-2006, 17:40
Well, I only ever played 1,000pt games with them, but never lost at that point level, so...

My list was primarilly, RX armed warriors, RX Bolt Throwers (2), and Dark Riders w/ RX. I did have a unit of Corsairs as well, but they almost never saw action as everything tended to get shot to death before getting to me. :evilgrin: :cheese:

Scythe
12-09-2006, 18:44
I do quite well with a warrior heavy list. It is not uncommon for me to field 70 warriors in a standard sized game. Most of them are spearelves, but I also have some crossbow elves for support. These large blocks of infantry are supported by smaller units of corsairs, witches, executioners, cold one chariots and dark riders. I usually play minimal characters (a single general and a sorceress is usually enough for me) and put my faith in numbers. Add some disruptive units like bolt throwers and shades to the mix, and you pretty much have my army. It is fun to outnumber an opponent with dark elves...:p

fleshtuxedo
12-09-2006, 19:41
I have played with a nice mix that gives me 70% victory in a highly competetive play arena

heavy on the bolt throwers, two chariots, army standard bearer with banner of Nagaroth, sorceress, lord w/ cold ones.
One heavy unit of spearmen...30
two units of 20 crossbows...w/shield and full command
One unit of dark riders

spearmen hold the center, if needed, march on the supporting crossbowen as regiments of swordsmen, chariots harrass and crush whatever the spearmen catch, and let the bolts fly... its straight forward and nasty

jesters89
13-09-2006, 04:54
My DE list had gone undefeated until this last Friday (and they were my first army, starting back freshman year of college... I'm in a PhD program now... so its been a while). I run:
3 casters (Lord = dark, one or two death depending on my mood)
a noble on dark pegasus with wand of khaidron
3-4 units of 5 dark riders
2 units of 12 repeaters
1 unit of cold one knights
2 bolt throwers

I think thats it. The game I lost was against a guy who was running vampire counts. I showed up to the game store eager to try out the new rules and he tells me all he has is an old list. Turns out the old list contained Mannfred Carstein and about 2150 points whereas I had only 2000. To make matters a bit less favorable, we had to play on a 4x4 board rather than 6x4.
He pulled the rug out from under me a bit, but it was a great game. I had never play VC before... and believe me- an army focused on hit & run tactics does not fair so well against an unbreakable army.

Holy Crap! Manticores!
21-09-2006, 11:46
I seem to be doing better with every game I get to play. Sadly, that's not nearly as often as I'd like, but I guess everyone not on the White Dwarf staff can say that.

Anyway, I catch a lot of crap about taking 2 largish units of Witch Elves. Mostly the "no armor save" and "Frenzied units don't always go where you want them to go." Big deal, I've seen them get shot to 3 models (+hidden Assassin muahahaha) and win combats by 8, after charging a fully ranked unit of (admittingly chumpy) troops. BTW, check out my signature for a truly impressive round of combat I've seen them win for me.

Typically, 75% of my army has no better than a 5+AS. Big deal. I've learned to use misdirection and trickery to make my impact.

You want overkill... bring 4 Sorcs (including a High Sorc) in a 2000 pt game. Note that I never used the "battery mage" strat that has been nerfed in 7th, a. because the magic lists available have a lot of RIP spells, and b. I spread them out across the deployment zone to keep my opponents from concentratring fire on the ladies. (Guess what? More units with no armor save, unless they're mounted.) By the way, once you get in range, Chillwind is an excellent way to shut down the opponesnt's shooting phase. Yayyyy!!!

(I realize that 4 sorcs is unfluffy in a Temple of Khaine army, but screw it, we're on a mission from the Witch King to spread our dominance, take your complaints to him...Besides, WE's don't really mind when you shut down the enemy shooting phase, as most people dread CC with them. They are also fond of Unseen Lurker... fancy that.)

Oh, and contrary to popular belief, we're pretty damn good at CC. Armor saves be damned. When I first started, I used "typical" army lists, with balanced shooting and hitty units, with the odd sorc for magic defense. I lost. A lot. Upon furthur review, I discovered that shooting form RxB's was a point sink, so I dropped them for more WE's or COK's. Well, I started pulling out draws in the 5th and 6th turns. That's a nice step forward. Then I realized that my magoc phase was becoming ineffective, with a lvl 2 Sorc going up against the battery mage strat. So I dropped Nobles and went more Sorcs to go with the hitty Witches. I actually started winning with that.

But if I were to post an army list (as I've done elsewhere), I get the same crap.
1. No armor saves. (Big deal)
2. Fragile (Duh, we're T3 elves.)
3. No hard hitters. (NOT!)

On top of that, I've had no less than 3 ****** tell me that Dark ELves were... :eek: "The weakest army in the game." And not show up the next week to prove their point. No wonder we're so hateful.

If nothing else, I can proudly say that no one, I mean NO ONE, has ever accused me of being :cheese: CHEESY :cheese:

Scythe
21-09-2006, 12:49
I wonder how you are going to keep your sorceresses alive in 7th edition. They are now free targetable, and you can't join units of witch elves even if you wanted to.

Rork
21-09-2006, 13:00
I wonder how you are going to keep your sorceresses alive in 7th edition. They are now free targetable, and you can't join units of witch elves even if you wanted to.

I don't think you'd ever want them in Witch Elves :eek:. Spearmen or dark riders are probably the best place to put a sorceress right now, although taking the scouting cloak and hiding amongst some shades would be an equally valid tactic.

Scythe
21-09-2006, 13:17
That's what I said. However with 4 sorceresses and 2 fat units of witch elves I doubt you have that many other choices in 2000 pts.

jesters89
21-09-2006, 13:38
While characters are walking bulls-eyes now, you can still use your own units to shield them. I run three casters and havnt found them being picked off yet. Granted, youve got to be wary of hills.

Holy Crap! Manticores!
21-09-2006, 13:39
mmm... not really, but the 4-sorc army was more of an experiment, and no, I didn't use "two fat units" of Witches with those armies. It was one small unit of Witches and an infantry base of Warriors. It was also my first experiment with the no-cold ones list. The few games I played with those lists were fun affairs.

My typical lists nowadays are 3 characters (1 or 2 sorcs, althought he lvl3 high sorc is a favorite) with more infantry and Dark Riders. Once in a while I'll draw up a goofy variant list I think would be fun to play, but would never bring to a tourney setting. I have yet to do a proper all-cav list, although with the nuances involved in playing such a force, I'll probably try it out some day.

Scythe
21-09-2006, 14:05
mmm... not really, but the 4-sorc army was more of an experiment, and no, I didn't use "two fat units" of Witches with those armies. It was one small unit of Witches and an infantry base of Warriors. It was also my first experiment with the no-cold ones list. The few games I played with those lists were fun affairs.


Ahh, my mistake. I misread that.

AngelofSorrow
22-09-2006, 07:53
Now when I used to field the Dark Elves I never went anywhere with Dark Riders (thats right I never used them) granted I've come close to being crucified by hardcore gamer for not using them but its ok. I was very infantry Heavy.
I mean come on 21 Black Guard 7wide 3 deep was really effective Especially when my Highborn joined them.

Scythe
22-09-2006, 08:19
But very expensive as well. I mean, that unit comes close to 400 pts, right? Wouldn't you rather drop a rank to save pts?

szlachcic
22-09-2006, 14:15
But very expensive as well. I mean, that unit comes close to 400 pts, right? Wouldn't you rather drop a rank to save pts?

I agree, with Black Guard you don't need to waste so many points on extra ranks. They are stubborn on LD9 (or 10 if you have a Highborn nearby) and that only gets better if you have a BSB as well. I have used BG once in a game, and I actually really enjoyed them. It was only a small unit of 10, but it went toe-to-toe with a full unit of Longbeards for several rounds before I was able to flank the unit with some Dark Riders. It was a small unit so I was able to use it as a speed bump to good effect and didn't have to worry about losing them too badly.


Now when I used to field the Dark Elves I never went anywhere with Dark Riders (thats right I never used them) granted I've come close to being crucified by hardcore gamer for not using them but its ok. I was very infantry Heavy.
I mean come on 21 Black Guard 7wide 3 deep was really effective Especially when my Highborn joined them.

I used to do the same thing and swore I would never use Dark Riders since I found them to be of little use. I laugh when I think about that now and everytime my regular opponents see me field a few units of them they groan in frustration.

Holy Crap! Manticores!
23-09-2006, 13:03
Ahh, my mistake. I misread that.no fault, I probably should have spent a bit more time explaining the whole "evolution" thing better. Because of the flexibility of the army, I reccomend making a new list weekly, even if you don't have the models to field it just yet. I don't own a dragon (yet...) but I've written up a few monster lists that incorporate them. Why? a. to keep me inspired to do so, and b. to keep from becoming complacent, which is maybe the biggest downfall of DE players. Besides, I'll bet it would really catch people off-guard when you DON'T bring RBT's, for example. No easy VP's for you! Plus they have to face, say, bigger blocks of Warriors that take a bit more to force a Panic test. Double-crap! (This is my plan for today, btw.)

Anyway, it's a world of difference from say brets where you know you're probably going to face a ton of Knights, or dwarfs where you're likely to face a ton of powder. Why, because these are the tried-and-true core of these armies, so to speak. (I faced a bret bowline with the mandatory KotR, but that's the exception to the rule I'm sure.) But i could probably bring a totally different DE list every week for the next 4 years, which is , coincidentally, when we'll probably see the new army book. :mad: :mad: :mad:

I used to do the same thing and swore I would never use Dark Riders since I found them to be of little use. I laugh when I think about that now and everytime my regular opponents see me field a few units of them they groan in frustration.this probably illustrates my point best. Something that looks useless on the surface ends up being the most flexible unit you have. I'm not big on RxB's on DR's, but that's just me. That's not to say I never use RxB-DR's, though... just not all the time.

It's kinda like Markerlights for the Tau... they don't kill anyhting, they just help everyone else kill stuff. Yarrr!!!

Scythe
23-09-2006, 16:45
I agree. I think I never played with the same army list twice. Variety is the key. A few 'off' unit keep the opponent always guessing. Sometimes I switch to cult of slaanesh for a battle or so, just to get some variety.

That said, I have some units which are always in my army. I always have at least one unit of spearelves and a unit of dark riders. Usually more, but I can't bring myself to leaving them out completely (and they are simply too good for that as well).