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Eblis_Dead_Forever
03-09-2006, 21:10
I've wanted to do this idea for quiet a while as I always thought that there is alot of cool conversion potential attached to it. The problem is it plausible from a fluff perspective, if every other human is susceptible to the taint of chaos it would hold to reason that they are too. I mean look at Horus. For example if a canoness was to find out what really happened during the hersey or even just bits and pieces and started to spread these revelations in secret till you have the beginning of a cult with-in a cult. An inquisitor finds out and tries to put a stop to it before it gets out of hand. However the canoness and her disciples get wind of it and escape before the inquistion can move against them. The canoness falls into despair as she sees the hypocrisy at the heart of the emperium and with her faith in tatters she is open to explotation from the forces of the dark gods.

All feed back welcome.

Jo Bennett
03-09-2006, 21:13
Fine, just please, in the name of all that is holy, don't make them Slaanesh cultists. That idea is too old...

Eblis_Dead_Forever
03-09-2006, 21:15
That wasn't the intention. The thought never crossed my mind and lets face it's just sad....

The_Patriot
03-09-2006, 21:17
Fluff wise no it's not possible for an entire sister Order Militant to turn. In the 5k year history of the Sisters only one sister has fallen to Chaos. She is Miriael Sabathiel and Sabretooth created her solely for their CCG. Read Faith and Fire to fully understand the mindset of the Orders Militant as they would rather die at their own hands then submit to Chaos. In the novel when things seemed impossible the Battle Sisters main characters always saved a round for suicide and were prepared to use it. Also in the novel if a sister fails to perform her job to her satisfaction that results in the death of one of her squad mates they petition to become Sister Repentia with final absolution being available in death.

t-tauri
03-09-2006, 21:56
The Ephrael Stern comic strip has a few more SoBs turning to Chaos. Chaos sisters is a very old idea. I don't particularly like it and don't think it sits well with the fluff for entire groups of super-religious individuals to suddenly change their views completely on their head. It's like the Pope turning old style Mormon and taking a nunnery to be his wives.

That said, it's your army, do what you like.:)

Axel
03-09-2006, 22:01
Who knows what may happen if a battle group is stranded in a ship that looses its way in the warp and is exposed to several millenia of mind and time-twisting. I would not rule it out, though fluffwise is unlikely that such a group would exist for long.

The_Patriot
03-09-2006, 22:07
Who knows what may happen if a battle group is stranded in a ship that looses its way in the warp and is exposed to several millenia of mind and time-twisting. I would not rule it out, though fluffwise is unlikely that such a group would exist for long.

They'd kill themselves first before succumbing to chaos in the warp. Religious zeal is a powerful weapon and ally for a sister. ;)

Gen.Steiner
03-09-2006, 22:23
If a Space Marine can become tainted by Chaos...

So can a Sister of Battle.

If an Inquisitor can become tainted by Chaos...

So can a Sister of Battle.

If Primarchs can become tainted by Chaos...

So can a Sister of Battle.

Run with it, I like the idea, particularly of a bunch of Sisters thinking that they had found the Truth - that Horus was in the right (and also pure) and the Emperor had fallen to Chaos. That kinda thing. Or, alternatively, just some good ol' Daemonic corruption in the high levels of a hierarchical order, with the lower sisters being dragged down through blind obedience disguised as faith...!

The_Patriot
03-09-2006, 22:44
If a Space Marine can become tainted by Chaos...

So can a Sister of Battle.

If an Inquisitor can become tainted by Chaos...

So can a Sister of Battle.

If Primarchs can become tainted by Chaos...

So can a Sister of Battle.

Run with it, I like the idea, particularly of a bunch of Sisters thinking that they had found the Truth - that Horus was in the right (and also pure) and the Emperor had fallen to Chaos. That kinda thing. Or, alternatively, just some good ol' Daemonic corruption in the high levels of a hierarchical order, with the lower sisters being dragged down through blind obedience disguised as faith...!

1. Space Marines lack the religious zeal the Sisters have in the Emperor and place far greater emphasis on the Emperor as a man not as a deity.

2. Inquisitors do not necessarily have the religious devotion the Sisters have to the Emperor. Inquisitors are psykers and are in contact with the warp on a daily basis so it's expected for them to fall.

3. Primarchs lacked the religious zeal the Sisters have in the Emperor and placed a far greater emphasis on fulfilling the Man-Emperor's dreams.

In all three points you've brought up they all share a common denominator that deals with religious zeal. None of the three you've brought up share the same amount of religious zeal and faith in the Emperor as God. A sister is dedicated to the service of the God-Emperor and worships the Emperor as God. They are also devoted to the Emperor in a way a daughter is devoted to her father as the original name for the Sisters was Daughters of the Emperor. This is why in fluff out of all the Sisters that have served the Imperium only a handful have fallen to Chaos. I'm not saying that it can't happen as it has happened in the fluff, but when it does happen it is only a small handful not an entire order that falls to chaos due to the training and devotion to the God-Emperor.

Latro_
03-09-2006, 22:45
Tzeentchian Sisters would be interesting. Kinda the witch hunters become the witch.

Latro_
03-09-2006, 22:51
1. Space Marines lack the religious zeal the Sisters have in the Emperor and place far greater emphasis on the Emperor as a man not as a deity.

Word bearers - look what happend to them.


I'm not saying that it can't happen as it has happened in the fluff, but when it does happen it is only a small handful not an entire order that falls to chaos due to the training and devotion to the God-Emperor.

By the very nature of the way chaos is written in 40k you cannot say anything is not possible in regards to it. Could quite easily have a chaotic cannoness slowly corrupting her sisters. Hell chaos eats from the inside out. Said cannoess could be blissfully unaware she was on the path to chaos. ergo Sould Drinkers marines styley.

or.. while hunting a psyker in their normal witch hunting duties said psyker casts a potent spell on them utterly corrupting them.

The_Patriot
03-09-2006, 22:55
Word bearers - look what happend to them.



By the very nature of the way chaos is written in 40k you cannot say anything is not possible in regards to it. Could quite easily have a chaotic cannoness slowly corrupting her sisters. Hell chaos eats from the inside out. Said cannoess could be blissfully unaware she was on the path to chaos. ergo Sould Drinkers marines styley.

or.. while hunting a psyker in their normal witch hunting duties said psyker casts a potent spell on them utterly corrupting them.

1. Word Bearers fell to chaos due to the Emperor telling them to stop worshiping him as god.

2. A cannoness would rather eat a bullet then fall to chaos. Especially since the manifestations of the living saints are walking around as inspiration on the rewards a faithful Sister can achieve as a daughter to the Emperor.

I believe that is what happened to Miriael Sabathiel since according to her fluff she was fighting against the Thousand Suns and was corrupted. I could buy a background for something similar happening to Battle Sisters, but I can't see that happening to any Sisters unit that generates faith like Seraphims. Most certainly not a Cannoness since she generates 2 faith points.

Latro_
03-09-2006, 23:02
Yes thats right they did... So are you retracting your previous statement that marines dont have the zeal to worship him as a god then? :)

I'm sure a cannoness would rather eat a bullet. She is however flesh and bone a normal unmodified human. All the faith in the word cant protect you 100% from chaos/other mind altering mechanisms. Hell a cannoness could fall over hit her head and for the rest of her life think she was a small pony called betsy just because part of her brain was damanged by the fall.

Now thats something as simple as tripping over a lecturn, throw ancient limitless powered gods of pure evil into the mix and i think its safe to say it'd be pretty easy for a cannoness fall.

Also... come on its not like the imperial church cant be ran by mad men... Goge Vandire anyone?

Gen.Steiner
03-09-2006, 23:14
1. Space Marines lack the religious zeal the Sisters have in the Emperor and place far greater emphasis on the Emperor as a man not as a deity.

This depends on the Chapter. Several Chapters - such as, for example, the Word Bearers (although that's a Legion, please bear with me :p) - do worship the Emperor as a God, or are religious zealots. Black Templars, for example. And they have fallen.


2. Inquisitors do not necessarily have the religious devotion the Sisters have to the Emperor. Inquisitors are psykers and are in contact with the warp on a daily basis so it's expected for them to fall.

Hurr. That's a stupid thing to say. It's not "expected" for Inquisitors to fall. Inquisitors are supposed to uphold the laws and will of the God-Emperor, and those that fall are seen as aberrations to be destroyed. Not all inquistors are psykers, either - and those that aren't are just as capable of deciding to worship the many-headed Hydra as the Aquila.


3. Primarchs lacked the religious zeal the Sisters have in the Emperor and placed a far greater emphasis on fulfilling the Man-Emperor's dreams.

They are, however, the closest things to demigods produced by the Imperium. Forget your Living Saints, the Primarchs are the real deal. If Chaos can exert its will over people like Fulgrim or Horus, the favoured son (!), then why not the 105 women of the Minor Order of the Pure Blood, Adepta Sororitas?


In all three points you've brought up they all share a common denominator that deals with religious zeal. None of the three you've brought up share the same amount of religious zeal and faith in the Emperor as God. A sister is dedicated to the service of the God-Emperor and worships the Emperor as God. They are also devoted to the Emperor in a way a daughter is devoted to her father as the original name for the Sisters was Daughters of the Emperor. This is why in fluff out of all the Sisters that have served the Imperium only a handful have fallen to Chaos. I'm not saying that it can't happen as it has happened in the fluff, but when it does happen it is only a small handful not an entire order that falls to chaos due to the training and devotion to the God-Emperor.

How about, then, Goge Vandire? How about all the preachers, Ministorium, Ecclesiarchy, Tech-Adepts etc etc who have fallen to the powers of Chaos?

Faith alone is not protection! It helps, and the Adepta Sororitas aren't the militant wing of the Witch-Hunters for nothing, but the fact remains that the Galaxy is a big place, there is precedent - as you admit - and who says that by 'Order' we're talking the Order of Our Martyred Lady? Minor Orders of a few dozen or a hundred or so people (conviently the size of a 40K force) could easily fall under the sway of a charismatic Canoness and fail to notice.

After all, in Daemonifuge, the only untainted Sororitas in Stern's convent was, er, Stern herself. And they were the Order of Our Martyred Lady!

Don't rule it out so quickly, basically. It's a good theme, and quite plausible.

Morathi's Darkest Sin
03-09-2006, 23:15
Theres gonna be some real disapointed folks in this thread when some GW guy suddenly deciedes that Their going to ignore all fluff thats gone before to make a story or plot piece they really like... I mean it's never happened before has it. :p (As mentioned in this thread already there are actually Chaos Sisters already according to comics.. and I've got an horrible feeling they may have been Slaanesh as well.)

Sorry for the sarcasm folks but come on, its a setting for battles in the far future, who cares what the fluff says now.. do you reckon Squat players in 1993 where expecting the Tyranids to eat their favoured army?
I suppose I'm just a little shocked you've got peeps in here telling a guy not to go with an idea he likes as it goes against the fluff... GW's fluff, I mean it changes evey 6months as it is. ;)

Taking the Last shot to end it all scenario into account - why not consider that a Tzeentch sorceror loose on the ship cast a ritual that makes ever bolt round used in the act of suicide (regardless of how riteous that act was in the minds of the firer) to actually taint the shooter instead of kill them, bullet penetrates the skull then poof infuses chaos energies with the brain.. instant Chaos Sisters before the round gets a chance to kill them.. its too late Zeal ain't going to help them now as their mind has been taken by Chaos and don't you try and tell me that a Tzeentch Sorceror couldn't pul it off... and if you still can't accept it, switch him to a Lord fo Change and its goodnight Vienna.

Virtually anything can be explained with a little forethought in 40K, (and thats just popped into my head while answering this thread) but especially when dealing with Chaos.

I'd go for it dude and don't worry about naysayers.

Gen.Steiner
03-09-2006, 23:18
I'd go for it dude and don't worry about naysayers.

Exactly! Well said! :D

The_Patriot
03-09-2006, 23:34
Yes thats right they did... So are you retracting your previous statement that marines dont have the zeal to worship him as a god then? :)

I'm sure a cannoness would rather eat a bullet. She is however flesh and bone a normal unmodified human. All the faith in the word cant protect you 100% from chaos/other mind altering mechanisms. Hell a cannoness could fall over hit her head and for the rest of her life think she was a small pony called betsy just because part of her brain was damanged by the fall.

Now thats something as simple as tripping over a lecturn, throw ancient limitless powered gods of pure evil into the mix and i think its safe to say it'd be pretty easy for a cannoness fall.

Also... come on its not like the imperial church cant be ran by mad men... Goge Vandire anyone?

Nope since modern chapters do not worship the Emperor as a deity due to the lesson learned from the Word Bearers. If a cannoness was brain damaged she wouldn't be a cannoness any longer due to her not being in full control over her faculties. Vandire wasn't a Sister so that's comparing apples to oranges.

Kegluneq
03-09-2006, 23:35
Just don't go the renegade Chapter route, it's naff and overdone. Make it a proper Chaos army, with a variety of damned units, not just a standard Sisters of Battle army with extra pointy bits.

Isolated and Unknowingly Corrupted is another option of course, although not quite so fun.

The_Patriot
03-09-2006, 23:41
This depends on the Chapter. Several Chapters - such as, for example, the Word Bearers (although that's a Legion, please bear with me :p) - do worship the Emperor as a God, or are religious zealots. Black Templars, for example. And they have fallen.



Hurr. That's a stupid thing to say. It's not "expected" for Inquisitors to fall. Inquisitors are supposed to uphold the laws and will of the God-Emperor, and those that fall are seen as aberrations to be destroyed. Not all inquistors are psykers, either - and those that aren't are just as capable of deciding to worship the many-headed Hydra as the Aquila.



They are, however, the closest things to demigods produced by the Imperium. Forget your Living Saints, the Primarchs are the real deal. If Chaos can exert its will over people like Fulgrim or Horus, the favoured son (!), then why not the 105 women of the Minor Order of the Pure Blood, Adepta Sororitas?



How about, then, Goge Vandire? How about all the preachers, Ministorium, Ecclesiarchy, Tech-Adepts etc etc who have fallen to the powers of Chaos?

Faith alone is not protection! It helps, and the Adepta Sororitas aren't the militant wing of the Witch-Hunters for nothing, but the fact remains that the Galaxy is a big place, there is precedent - as you admit - and who says that by 'Order' we're talking the Order of Our Martyred Lady? Minor Orders of a few dozen or a hundred or so people (conviently the size of a 40K force) could easily fall under the sway of a charismatic Canoness and fail to notice.

After all, in Daemonifuge, the only untainted Sororitas in Stern's convent was, er, Stern herself. And they were the Order of Our Martyred Lady!

Don't rule it out so quickly, basically. It's a good theme, and quite plausible.

1. Do those Chapters have faith points and acts of faith? Didn't think so which means they aren't quite as faithful as the Sisters.

2. Funny but my codex shows that Inquisitors can take psyker powers and are psykers themselves.

3. The living saints are the embodiment of the Emperor's power bestowed upon the faithful sisters.

4. Comparing apples to oranges since those folks aren't part of the Sisters. Cannoness are held in check and outranked by priests. The only authority they have is over the Sisters that are under them which is why when you field a SoB to be able to have access to stuff like assassins you need an Inquisitor Lord as your HQ. In all the examples I've read from fluff the only sisters to fall were battle sisters ie sisters that do not have faith points.

Gen.Steiner
03-09-2006, 23:42
...If a cannoness was brain damaged she wouldn't be a cannoness any longer due to her not being in full control over her faculties. Vandire wasn't a Sister so that's comparing apples to oranges.

You, sir, are being silly. If a Canoness was brain damaged, she remains a Canoness until such time as she is replaced, because being a Canoness is a rank, and not a state of mind!

Vandire may not have been a Sister of Battle (because they didn't exist then - at least not as the Adepta Sororitas, militant wing of the Ecclesiarchy), but he was the TOP RELIGIOUS LEADER. Like the Pope. But more so.

Now, imagine the pope becoming a Satanist, or a plain ol' atheist. Unlikely, right? Yet Vandire was corrupted by Chaos...

The fact is that if you want to do Chaos SoB, feel free to do so. It's really that simple. There's precedent for sisters falling in the background, and where one leads, others follow. :D

EDIT:

I sit corrected - there are no Space Marine Chapters who worship the Emperor as a God. My mistake. My other points, however, stand.


..my codex shows that Inquisitors can take psyker powers and are psykers themselves.

Actually, it gives you the option to take psychic powers. In Inquisitor and Daemonifuge there are Inquisitors who are not Psykers. Many Inquistors are psychic, but not all.


The living saints are the embodiment of the Emperor's power bestowed upon the faithful sisters.

Yes, and the Primarchs are demi-gods. Demi-Gods. Half-Gods. Not saints. Not miracle workers. Nearly gods in their own right! And, arguably, Angron et al are even more so now that they're Daemon Princes...


Comparing apples to oranges...

No, not at all. I'm comparing highly religious humans to highly religious humans. :rolleyes:

You're a SoB fanboy. Fine. Just don't try and say that it's IMPOSSIBLE for more than one SoB to fall to Chaos, because, er, it's not.

The_Patriot
03-09-2006, 23:46
You, sir, are being silly. If a Canoness was brain damaged, she remains a Canoness until such time as she is replaced, because being a Canoness is a rank, and not a state of mind!

Vandire may not have been a Sister of Battle (because they didn't exist then - at least not as the Adepta Sororitas, militant wing of the Ecclesiarchy), but he was the TOP RELIGIOUS LEADER. Like the Pope. But more so.

Now, imagine the pope becoming a Satanist, or a plain ol' atheist. Unlikely, right? Yet Vandire was corrupted by Chaos...

The fact is that if you want to do Chaos SoB, feel free to do so. It's really that simple. There's precedent for sisters falling in the background, and where one leads, others follow. :D

She would be replaced by the Order due to her being unable to fulfill her duties as required by her rank. A person not in full use of their faculties will be replaced by someone that is since the Sisters nor the Church can take chances with Chaos.

You forget that it was the leader of the Sisters that killed Vandire once she found out the truth about him being a heretic. In Faith and Fire the Sisters took out the highest ranking priest on the planet because he was a heretic and working against the Imperium for his own gain.

Lastie
03-09-2006, 23:52
I've long held the belief that nothing is truly safe from the corruption (or salvation, depending on your point of view) of Chaos. I find it more frightening when not even absolute faith, the best pentagramic wards in the universe, or even the complete lack of any soul can protect you from turning to the Ruinous Powers (although, OK, that last one was a bit odd. Chaos Culexus anyone?).

I'll be the first to admit it's entirely my own personal opinion, but the rathe vague (and sometime contradictory) nature of the fluff allows it to exist. Everyone has their own view of the 40K universe, even GW themselves are divided on many issues. It's also your army, and frankly you can do whatever you want with it.

Although, if we're arguing about Sisters what happens when someone says Chaos Grey Knights (long-planned pet project of mine :D)?

Gen.Steiner
03-09-2006, 23:53
She would be replaced by the Order due to her being unable to fulfill her duties as required by her rank. A person not in full use of their faculties will be replaced by someone that is since the Sisters nor the Church can take chances with Chaos.

Unless - shock horror - she's in a position where the Church won't find out for quite some time. In Warp transit, for example, or even just on a far-flung world. And if it's a slow, creeping change, no-one will notice until it's too late...


You forget that it was the leader of the Sisters that killed Vandire once she found out the truth about him being a heretic. In Faith and Fire the Sisters took out the highest ranking priest on the planet because he was a heretic and working against the Imperium for his own gain.

No, I didn't forget. Leader of the Daughters, actually :p but the point is that she followed him blindly until it was pointed out to her that she was on the wrong side. Now, if no-one had pointed it out, she'd have kept on fighting for Vandire, along with everyone else. How hard is it for that to apply to a Canoness in an isolated preceptory with intermittent contact with the Imperium, and the Sisters under her? Not very hard at all.

And in that example from Faith and Fire, well done, but it doesn't stop a Canoness (or Superior) from falling and taking people with her... :rolleyes:

Note: See the edit to my previous post, please.

Latro_
03-09-2006, 23:53
Nope since modern chapters do not worship the Emperor as a deity due to the lesson learned from the Word Bearers.

At the time worship of the emporer was forbidden. Marines completly 100% only saw the emporer as a normal man. In their current stage they are a million times on the path to worshipping him then they were during the herecy. So on that point i fail to see where any 'lessons' have been learnt.

They do worship him, just not with the fanaticism of the sisters. They pray 3 times a day. It all comes down to levels of ziotry and the definition of god really. Something thats best not gone into when talking about toy soldiers.


If a cannoness was brain damaged she wouldn't be a cannoness any longer due to her not being in full control over her faculties.

So she wouldent 'be' a cannoness. Shed look like one, still command a cadre of sister troops. Sounds like chaos sisters to me.

Sisters are so religious and all that because its been drumbed into them since birth. Brainwashing call it what you like they have been made to think in that way. Which is what makes them who they are and what the believe.

I was merly stressing the unavoidable fact that if they can be moulded this way any external factor can change this moulding be it emotionally or psysically as in my silly example about banging their head on a lecturn.



Vandire wasn't a Sister so that's comparing apples to oranges.

Not really is like comparing apples to apple pie. People like vandire shaped and wrote the dogma that the imperial church is built on. When a sister is born she could quite easily become the whore from full metal jacket but its the imperial creed taught and drumbed into her that makes her what she is.
I should think it is therefore quite easy to link the teachers with the resulting students behaviour. A corrupted sector priest rewriting doctrine and suplanting ideas in young sister's heads. Its something that goes on in cults even today.

Gen.Steiner
03-09-2006, 23:55
Although, if we're arguing about Sisters what happens when someone says Chaos Grey Knights (long-planned pet project of mine :D)?

Go for it. :D

The_Patriot
03-09-2006, 23:58
Unless - shock horror - she's in a position where the Church won't find out for quite some time. In Warp transit, for example, or even just on a far-flung world. And if it's a slow, creeping change, no-one will notice until it's too late...



No, I didn't forget. Leader of the Daughters, actually :p but the point is that she followed him blindly until it was pointed out to her that she was on the wrong side. Now, if no-one had pointed it out, she'd have kept on fighting for Vandire, along with everyone else. How hard is it for that to apply to a Canoness in an isolated preceptory with intermittent contact with the Imperium, and the Sisters under her? Not very hard at all.

And in that example from Faith and Fire, well done, but it doesn't stop a Canoness (or Superior) from falling and taking people with her... :rolleyes:

Note: See the edit to my previous post, please.

1. In which case the Celestians and other elite troops would take her out to prevent her from falling.

2. Since Vandire such a situation was made nigh impossible for it to happen again which is why in Faith and Fire Miriyia and her celestians took out the cardinal.

Tymell
03-09-2006, 23:59
Fluff wise no it's not possible for an entire sister Order Militant to turn. In the 5k year history of the Sisters only one sister has fallen to Chaos. She is Miriael Sabathiel and Sabretooth created her solely for their CCG. Read Faith and Fire to fully understand the mindset of the Orders Militant as they would rather die at their own hands then submit to Chaos. In the novel when things seemed impossible the Battle Sisters main characters always saved a round for suicide and were prepared to use it. Also in the novel if a sister fails to perform her job to her satisfaction that results in the death of one of her squad mates they petition to become Sister Repentia with final absolution being available in death.

I'm sorry, but that's just the kind of attitude that can ruin this hobby. I agree far more with tauri's point: it's his army and he can do what he wants with it. the 40K universe is a big place and anything can happen. Looks at how many unpredictable things occur in the real world. Now think of how much bigger the 40K "world" is.

It can be explained anyway. You say they'd never ever turn traitor, but don't you think that's precisely what people said about space marines before the Horus Heresy? You can't honestly believe you can speak for -every- sister out there can you? I'd say about the only races you can really do that for are Tyranids and possibly Necrons. Humans are probably the most varied race out there.

Plus, there is one overwhelming point: It's a game.

It's just a bit of fun. If he wants to come up with an army like that, then go for it I say, and who gives a shiney nurgling if it technically doesn't fit? Hey, an army with a theme is always fun. Personally I'd much rather have an army with a theme that doesn't perfectly fit than a plain old typical sisters/chaos army with no theme at all.

The_Patriot
04-09-2006, 00:05
At the time worship of the emporer was forbidden. Marines completly 100% only saw the emporer as a normal man. In their current stage they are a million times on the path to worshipping him then they were during the herecy. So on that point i fail to see where any 'lessons' have been learnt.

They do worship him, just not with the fanaticism of the sisters. They pray 3 times a day. It all comes down to levels of ziotry and the definition of god really. Something thats best not gone into when talking about toy soldiers.



So she wouldent 'be' a cannoness. Shed look like one, still command a cadre of sister troops. Sounds like chaos sisters to me.

Sisters are so religious and all that because its been drumbed into them since birth. Brainwashing call it what you like they have been made to think in that way. Which is what makes them who they are and what the believe.

I was merly stressing the unavoidable fact that if they can be moulded this way any external factor can change this moulding be it emotionally or psysically as in my silly example about banging their head on a lecturn.




Not really is like comparing apples to apple pie. People like vandire shaped and wrote the dogma that the imperial church is built on. When a sister is born she could quite easily become the whore from full metal jacket but its the imperial creed taught and drumbed into her that makes her what she is.
I should think it is therefore quite easy to link the teachers with the resulting students behaviour. A corrupted sector priest rewriting doctrine and suplanting ideas in young sister's heads. Its something that goes on in cults even today.

No she would be taken care of by the Sisters Hospitallers and would not be able to lead her troops. Celestians and other elite troops would kill her before she had a chance to fall. That much is abundantly clear in Faith and Fire since they look out for signs of corruption within their ranks and if a sister is found to be corrupted she is assigned to either the Sister Repentia, Arco-flaggalents, or Penitent Engines depending upon if she realizes her crimes and shows remorse. If she shows remorse and realizes her crimes then she invokes the rite of sister repentia and joins their ranks. If she does not then she is made into an arco-flagallent or a penitent engine depending upon the severity of her crime.

The sisters have their own dogma and rituals that are not touched by the Church. It is this separateness that allows them to take out heretics within the Church and without.

The_Patriot
04-09-2006, 00:09
I'm sorry, but that's just the kind of attitude that can ruin this hobby. I agree far more with tauri's point: it's his army and he can do what he wants with it. the 40K universe is a big place and anything can happen. Looks at how many unpredictable things occur in the real world. Now think of how much bigger the 40K "world" is.

It can be explained anyway. You say they'd never ever turn traitor, but don't you think that's precisely what people said about space marines before the Horus Heresy? You can't honestly believe you can speak for -every- sister out there can you? I'd say about the only races you can really do that for are Tyranids and possibly Necrons. Humans are probably the most varied race out there.

Plus, there is one overwhelming point: It's a game.

It's just a bit of fun. If he wants to come up with an army like that, then go for it I say, and who gives a shiney nurgling if it technically doesn't fit? Hey, an army with a theme is always fun. Personally I'd much rather have an army with a theme that doesn't perfectly fit than a plain old typical sisters/chaos army with no theme at all.

He asked a question if it was possible to have a Chaos Sisters army and I replied to that question using fluff. Yes this is a game and if he wants to run a Chaos Sisters army then he should. He'd have to change a lot concerning them like converting acts of faith to be daemonic as well as explain how his sisters fell so it makes sense. If he can explain that then I'd be happy.

Gen.Steiner
04-09-2006, 00:14
No she would be taken care of by the Sisters Hospitallers and would not be able to lead her troops. Celestians and other elite troops would kill her before she had a chance to fall.

That's the theory, at least.

You're ignoring the following possibilities:

1) A gradual slide into Chaos that happens over a number of years and is not noticed.
2) A single, shattering sorcerous event which turns a large number of Sisters
3) A group of isolated Sisters declared Perdita - because they still use version 293 of the M32 text, particularly 3:42 sub-section D (ii) para. 12 line 3 - are forced onto the run, and gradually come to hate the Imperium and Ecclesiarchy.
4) It's a cool idea.
5) While in warp transit, the Destroyer Plague comes upon them! Nurgle tries it on again...
6) While in Warp Transit, daemons take over the sisters' officers.
7) A bunch of scribes within an order subtly re-write their texts and corrupt the Sisters that way.
8) An Inquisitor makes a pass at a Canoness, is rebuffed, and declares them Excommunicate Traitoris. See point 3 for what happens next.

And so on and so on.

EDIT:


He'd have to change a lot concerning them like converting acts of faith to be daemonic as well as explain how his sisters fell so it makes sense. If he can explain that then I'd be happy.

Yeh, we're offering possible reasons, and your response is basically "HURR IT AM NOT WORK LIKE THAT N00B RED TEH FLUFF"

Except with better spelling.

Latro_
04-09-2006, 00:16
No she would be taken care of by the Sisters Hospitallers and would not be able to lead her troops. Celestians and other elite troops would kill her before she had a chance to fall.

Not if they were corrupted too.



That much is abundantly clear in Faith and Fire since they look out for signs of corruption within their ranks and if a sister is found to be corrupted she is assigned to either the Sister Repentia, Arco-flaggalents, or Penitent


I bolded your use of the word if there. If a sister is found. What if they are not found to be corrupted. if i did notice my house was on fire i would do this... if i didnt then the fire would spread. This is the nature of chaos in the 40k fluff.
Eventually i'd noticed it was on fire. maybe with enough time to do something, maybe not and i resign myself to the fact my house has had it.



The sisters have their own dogma and rituals that are not touched by the Church. It is this separateness that allows them to take out heretics within the Church and without.

Who sanctions their own dogma and rituals?
If they do them selves then what you have there is a perfect dead end for corruption. Are you saying they can make up whatever rituals and belief systems they like?

could such a personalised ritual extend to praise to a vision of the emporer seen by members of an order? - mr tzeentch puts his emporers mask on.

Gen.Steiner
04-09-2006, 00:19
Who sanctions their own dogma and rituals?
If they do them selves then what you have there is a perfect dead end for corruption. Are you saying they can make up whatever rituals and belief systems they like?

The Ordo Hereticus... who aren't above corruption. :evilgrin:

The_Patriot
04-09-2006, 00:26
Oh it is a cool idea on them turning Chaos and I think it's a good one. However, he has to set it up and explain why they did turn to Chaos which is for him to do. My position in this entire discussion is to present obstacles using fluff to the ideas presented. As for the theory actually it's stated in the WH codex on Order Hospitallers. Let me go through the list you presented on possibilities for them turning to chaos.

1. Isn't seen in fluff and due to the watchfulness of the Orders of the Sisters it would be hard for it to happen.

2. Plausible due to this is what happened to Miriael Sabathiel when her squad faced the Thousand Sons.

3. Can't happen due to the existance of Orders Dialogous which are scholars and advisors. See page 11 of Codex Witch Hunters.

4. See above

5. Possible and presented in the comics.

6. According to Codex Chaos Space Marines, possession can only occur with the consent of the host.

7. Not possible since Orders Dialogous are watched over by the other orders from different sections that make up the administration of the Imperium.

8. Possible due to the nature and position of power an Inquisitor holds, but the Sisters do have the power to remove heretics even if they're Inquisitors.

The_Patriot
04-09-2006, 00:33
Not if they were corrupted too.



I bolded your use of the word if there. If a sister is found. What if they are not found to be corrupted. if i did notice my house was on fire i would do this... if i didnt then the fire would spread. This is the nature of chaos in the 40k fluff.
Eventually i'd noticed it was on fire. maybe with enough time to do something, maybe not and i resign myself to the fact my house has had it.



Who sanctions their own dogma and rituals?
If they do them selves then what you have there is a perfect dead end for corruption. Are you saying they can make up whatever rituals and belief systems they like?

could such a personalised ritual extend to praise to a vision of the emporer seen by members of an order? - mr tzeentch puts his emporers mask on.

1. Sisters Hospitallers are in other orders not in the Orders Militant. From Codex Witch Hunters here are two official orders for the Sisters Hospitaller: Order of the Cleansing Water and Order of the Torch.

2. Hard to do when you have your squad and your order watching your every movement. Guess that's why Miriael Sabathiel was the only Battle Sister left alive in her squad after the fight with the Thousand Sons.

3. The Orders Dialogous of the Adepta Sororitas keep their dogma and religious texts. Two official orders from CWH are Order of the Sacred Oath and Order of the Lexicon. They ensure that the Sisters of the Order Militant adhere to the official dogma of the Church and the Sisters.

Puffin Magician
04-09-2006, 00:35
Well The_Patriot, if you think that Sisters falling to Chaos is such an impossible idea, why don't you just ignore the thread and stop fighting against an idea that is wholly up to the player who conceives it? At the very least you could start supporting the idea even if you think it's utterly impossible within the 40k universe as you see it.

I'm a fluffnut as well, but Faith is no excuse for being totally impervious to darkness and trying to say exactly what the Dark Powers are and are not capable of is complete fallacy.

All that's needed is a occult opinion and a few agreeing minds, or the realization that something you believe so deeply in turns out to be untrue and bam, you've got some slightly peeved individuals. And as you say, they have such immense faith - imagine that faith placed in something other than the Imperium...

Quite a few of these "It can't happen because..." answers could probably be said about Space Marines before the Horus Heresy, and look what happened there.

I think a fallen group of sisters corrupted by Tzeentch would be stunning on the tabletop from a visual perspective; all that blue and brass coupled with the Sister's blinged-to-the-brim armour would be something neat to see.

Latro_
04-09-2006, 00:36
You take the fluff far to literal and are also trying to apply it to a background set that comprises near limitless spans of space and time.

For example... Order dialogous watches over them keeps in contact.
What if the planet/ship/donkey they are on gets caught in a warp storm and is corrupted there. These little simpets of fluff you are throwing into the mix are easily quashed with a mere smidge of imaginative thought and therefore really dont have to have an arbitrary adherance to every possible fluff hurdle.

insectum7
04-09-2006, 00:37
Fluff wise no it's not possible for an entire sister Order Militant to turn. [ faithful yada yada...]

Ever dated a catholic girl?


Ok seriously, the point was already brought up about Word Bearers. Along similar lines the Emperors Children became too ritualised and prideful.It is completely reasonable that in their very overzealousness the Sisters could become corrupted somehow.

Possible story... Space Marines are, in a way, the sons of the Emperor. A monestary aligned with one of the major orders takes this fact too far and the sisters begin zealously campaigning alongisde a particular chapter in the same sector. The combined forces go on a holy crusade, and both the sisters and the chapter become ever more dangerously bloodthirsty in their zealous butcherings. The chapter begins showing signs of falling to chaos, and the former allied Sisters become entwined in a struggle to first redeem their allies, and when that fails they are called upon by visions of the emperor to exterminate them. Betrayed and outraged, the Sisters mobilize and catch the weakend marine forces off guard (they saw much heavy fighting during the crusade) and revel to much in their wrath and victories, themselves becoming corrupted during the slaughter of their former allies. They realise their errors, and crusade even more heavily to redeem themselves, butchering all perceived heretics that stray from the strictest imperial creeds, but fail in their machinations to gain the favor of the emperors divine light. They flee further from controlled space, chased by imperial fleets, and further towards the Eye of Terror, and eventually are corrupted comepletely.

Perhaps every time they seek redemption through death, they are ressurected by Tzeentch for amusements sake. The sisters become some of his most favored warriors, as they give their lives readily in battle, forever seeking the Emperors Divine light through self immolation, but he always steers them toward the forces of his rival gods. Or tricks them into thinking that their next enemy is either themselves corrupted, or that the warband of desperate sisters will be released from his bondage after they dispatch one last foe...


Whoah that got longer than I thought it would be real fast! Hope that helps anyway.

Gen.Steiner
04-09-2006, 00:37
Oh it is a cool idea on them turning Chaos and I think it's a good one. However, he has to set it up and explain why they did turn to Chaos which is for him to do. My position in this entire discussion is to present obstacles using fluff to the ideas presented. As for the theory actually it's stated in the WH codex on Order Hospitallers. Let me go through the list you presented on possibilities for them turning to chaos.

Your obstacles from the background are w33k. :p


1. Isn't seen in fluff and due to the watchfulness of the Orders of the Sisters it would be hard for it to happen.

How else are the Sisters in Daemonifugue turned, if not over a number of years? :rolleyes: Ephrael Stern is in prison in Book 1 awaiting judgement for heresy, because she's been framed by the Slaaneshi worshippers in the midst of that particular group of Sisters...


2. Plausible due to this is what happened to Miriael Sabathiel when her squad faced the Thousand Sons.

Aha! A loophole! Victory!


3. Can't happen due to the existance of Orders Dialogous which are scholars and advisors. See page 11 of Codex Witch Hunters.

Too sweeping. Warp travel is bizzare - who's to say that the updates and revisions never arrived, or, equally likely, that group X of sisters were en route for 300 years, and when they re-emerge, they're hoplessly out of date and now heretics.


4. See above

Again, too sweeping. Nothing is impossible. Hence female Space Marines (Fighting Tigers of Veda) or beastmen in the Imperial Guard. Or even Squats.


5. Possible and presented in the comics.

Whee! Victory # 2!


6. According to Codex Chaos Space Marines, possession can only occur with the consent of the host.

And according to other sources, e.g. the graphic novels following Interrogator Defay, possession can occur when the host is weak-willed and psychically attuned. Furthermore, who's to say that a particularly strong and cunning Daemon couldn't convince people to let it into them...?


7. Not possible since Orders Dialogous are watched over by the other orders from different sections that make up the administration of the Imperium.

Again, far too sweeping. Corruption is deep and convoluted - and besides, in such a huge adminstrative network, there's a difference between filing a report and acting on it. Furthermore, when you're seven hundred light years and five month's warp travel from the nearest Inspectorate, anything can happen in the next half hour...!


8. Possible due to the nature and position of power an Inquisitor holds, but the Sisters do have the power to remove heretics even if they're Inquisitors.

Have to prove the Inquisitor's a heretic first, and you have to find out they're a heretic. And given that the Ordo Hereticus (hell, the Inquisition in general) wields the very will of the God-Emperor Himself... who's going to question Inquisitor Lord Karamazov, for example?

The_Patriot
04-09-2006, 00:44
Well The_Patriot, if you think that Sisters falling to Chaos is such an impossible idea, why don't you just ignore the thread and stop contributing useless counter-arguments? At the very least you could start supporting the idea even if you think it's utterly impossible within the 40k universe as you see it.

I'm a fluffnut as well, but Faith is no excuse for being totally impervious to darkness and trying to say exactly what the Dark Powers are and are not capable of is complete fallacy.

All that's needed is a occult opinion and a few agreeing minds, or the realization that something you believe so deeply in turns out to be untrue and bam, you've got some slightly peeved individuals. And as you say, they have such immense faith - imagine that faith placed in something other than the Imperium...

I think a fallen group of sisters corrupted by Tzeentch would be stunning on the tabletop from a visual perspective; all that blue and brass coupled with the Sister's blinged-to-the-brim armour would be something neat to see.

One thing I never said that it was impossible. I only said impossible when it comes to a cannoness and units that are faithful units. The point of my counter-arguments are to get ideas on how to impliment an army like this using fluff. Hard to have good fluff for the army when everyone is agreeing with each other without thinking things through while on the other hand challenge to the idea is good for generating ideas to get around the official fluff. I have already stated that it would be a good idea previously and my arguments are to be used to generate a way around the official fluff regarding this.

Since there is no record of a cannoness in fluff falling or elite units falling one could start with a Battle Sister Squad. The unit isn't faithful unless there is a veteran sister superior as part of it. The unit faces against Chaos and get corrupted through a spell/psychic ability. The sister superior stylizes herself as being a 'cannoness' and slowly corrupts the rest of the regular units involved in the fighting. Make it so that the cannoness of the order or elite troops are involved like they were killed when their drop pods crashed etc...

Cap'n Umgrotz
04-09-2006, 00:44
I'm pretty sure every chaos army that gets big enough ends up with one chaos sister, because after a certain critical mass of manliness, chaos players need that womens touch.
Usually slaaneesh though. Why is it that you never see any women worshipping Nurgle?And only occasionally Khorne or the other fella with the hard to spell name?Always with the slaanesh and the bare boobs and the whatnots.

Latro_
04-09-2006, 00:46
And according to other sources, e.g. the graphic novels following Interrogator Defay, possession can occur when the host is weak-willed and psychically attuned. Furthermore, who's to say that a particularly strong and cunning Daemon couldn't convince people to let it into them...?



And to further add creedance to this area of fluff LAST CHANCERS NOVEL SPOILER -> lieutenant kage is possessed by a demon without his own say so. Have we reached a point the debate where gamesworkshop fluff is proving to be inconsistant.

fancy that ;)

Gen.Steiner
04-09-2006, 00:47
Since there is no record of a cannoness in fluff falling or elite units falling...

I refer you again to Daemonifuge. :rolleyes:

The_Patriot
04-09-2006, 00:48
I refer you again to Daemonifuge. :rolleyes:

I haven't read it but I will when I get the soonest opportunity. :P

Gen.Steiner
04-09-2006, 00:50
Do so, it's jolly good and well worth it. :D

Even if it is hard to find now (although I've not looked that hard, in fairness).

The_Patriot
04-09-2006, 00:53
Ever dated a catholic girl?


Ok seriously, the point was already brought up about Word Bearers. Along similar lines the Emperors Children became too ritualised and prideful.It is completely reasonable that in their very overzealousness the Sisters could become corrupted somehow.

Possible story... Space Marines are, in a way, the sons of the Emperor. A monestary aligned with one of the major orders takes this fact too far and the sisters begin zealously campaigning alongisde a particular chapter in the same sector. The combined forces go on a holy crusade, and both the sisters and the chapter become ever more dangerously bloodthirsty in their zealous butcherings. The chapter begins showing signs of falling to chaos, and the former allied Sisters become entwined in a struggle to first redeem their allies, and when that fails they are called upon by visions of the emperor to exterminate them. Betrayed and outraged, the Sisters mobilize and catch the weakend marine forces off guard (they saw much heavy fighting during the crusade) and revel to much in their wrath and victories, themselves becoming corrupted during the slaughter of their former allies. They realise their errors, and crusade even more heavily to redeem themselves, butchering all perceived heretics that stray from the strictest imperial creeds, but fail in their machinations to gain the favor of the emperors divine light. They flee further from controlled space, chased by imperial fleets, and further towards the Eye of Terror, and eventually are corrupted comepletely.

Perhaps every time they seek redemption through death, they are ressurected by Tzeentch for amusements sake. The sisters become some of his most favored warriors, as they give their lives readily in battle, forever seeking the Emperors Divine light through self immolation, but he always steers them toward the forces of his rival gods. Or tricks them into thinking that their next enemy is either themselves corrupted, or that the warband of desperate sisters will be released from his bondage after they dispatch one last foe...


Whoah that got longer than I thought it would be real fast! Hope that helps anyway.

Very well done on thinking it through. :) I would agree with all the ideas you presented are very possible and being able to pull in a cannoness as well as other faith generating units into the thrall of Chaos.

The_Patriot
04-09-2006, 00:55
Do so, it's jolly good and well worth it. :D

Even if it is hard to find now (although I've not looked that hard, in fairness).

Well I got Faith and Fire and never heard of Daemonifuge until this thread. Thanks for adding to my reading list. lol :skull:

Puffin Magician
04-09-2006, 00:57
The point of my counter-arguments are to get ideas on how to implement an army like this using fluff. Hard to have good fluff for the army when everyone is agreeing with each other without thinking things through ... and my arguments are to be used to generate a way around the official fluff regarding this.Quite right and a good point; your posts simply appear to be awfully negative.

Since there is no record of a cannoness in fluff falling or elite units falling...Ah, but as Kage2020 always says... "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". ;)

One could start with a Battle Sister Squad.Exactly. All it takes is a puny splinter group and from there they grow with either IG followers, Chaos beasts and daemons, and a leader will eventually [likely out of necessity] be elected.

Gen.Steiner
04-09-2006, 01:01
...a leader will eventually [likely out of necessity] be elected.

Elected?!

Elected!?

A leader will eventually rise to the top through political machinations, blood sacrifices, death and destruction, surely... :D

The_Patriot
04-09-2006, 01:04
Elected?!

Elected!?

A leader will eventually rise to the top through political machinations, blood sacrifices, death and destruction, surely... :D

I like the self styled cannoness idea the best. This way to differentiate Chaos Sisters from just being evil nuns with guns using the same acts of faith as the good girls you can open them up to using daemonic gifts as presented in CSM codex.

Gen.Steiner
04-09-2006, 01:05
I thought the whole point was to use the CSM 'dex but with SoB minis...? :confused:

The_Patriot
04-09-2006, 01:08
I thought the whole point was to use the CSM 'dex but with SoB minis...? :confused:

I didn't think that was the idea. However, depending upon how he writes his fluff and how much thought he put into balancing his own daemonic gifts that suits his army I would be willing to play against it.

mooserehab86
04-09-2006, 01:08
Actually, it gives you the option to take psychic powers. In Inquisitor and Daemonifuge there are Inquisitors who are not Psykers. Many Inquistors are psychic, but not all.

I'm pointing this out because I'm not sure if you're referring specifically to fluff, or if rules are involved. Better safe than sorry:p Anyway what I was gonna say is that even if you don't give your inquisitor a psychic power, he still counts as a psyker when it comes to stuff that affects psykers.


Why is it that you never see any women worshipping Nurgle?

Well I think when it comes to plague marines and such, it would be hard to tell if any given marine is male or female.

Tymell
04-09-2006, 01:13
Demonifuge is well worth the read, definitely. I've got the graphic novel myself, and while I won't put up any actual spoilers, let's say that if you read it and accept it then it pretty much reduces any claims of sisters not turning to dust :p

Gen.Steiner
04-09-2006, 01:15
I'm pointing this out because I'm not sure if you're referring specifically to fluff, or if rules are involved. Better safe than sorry:p Anyway what I was gonna say is that even if you don't give your inquisitor a psychic power, he still counts as a psyker when it comes to stuff that affects psykers.

I was talking about the background and the rules interpretation of it, in an unclear manner. That said, I didn't know that they counted as Psykers even w/out powers. Bizzare!


Well I think when it comes to plague marines and such, it would be hard to tell if any given marine is male or female.

Autopsies, although you'd never perform them...!


Demonifuge is well worth the read, definitely. I've got the graphic novel myself, and while I won't put up any actual spoilers, let's say that if you read it and accept it then it pretty much reduces any claims of sisters not turning to dust

Agreed! :D

Sephiroth
04-09-2006, 01:16
Can Sisters of Battle be corrupted?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v289/Zekk/corrupt-sister.jpg

Of course they can. The above's 'official' Games Workshop art, and besides the already mentioned Daemonifuge, Dan Abnett wrote a story about a corrupted Sister.

They however, go to quite some lengths to cover it up. ;)

Tymell
04-09-2006, 01:18
Oh and good points from peeps about Chaos SoBs -always- being made to worship Slaanesh. I think a lot of people in GW (mainly men let's be honest) just hold females in warhammer as a sign of sexuality, because to be honest the main time (note I don't say only) that they crop up is to represent sexuality. It's a predominantly male hobby in both style and gamers, so males are the most common characters in it. The distinction between male and female in this context is one of sexuality, ergo females are mainly used when sexuality is the issue (i.e. daemonettes. Slaanesh is a god associated with sexuality, so his daemons are made female to emphasise this).

Some people in GW might do well to realise that female doesn't have to equal nymphomanic ;)

mooserehab86
04-09-2006, 01:19
I didn't know that they counted as Psykers even w/out powers. Bizzare!

Yeah I think it's pretty wierd too, or maybe I'll just go ahead and say stupid. It's on the GW site somewhere, probably in the FAQ or maybe the questions addressed by Pete Haines. It might even be in the WH codex itself, but I don't have the book with me so I can't check.

Gen.Steiner
04-09-2006, 01:19
Can Sisters of Battle be corrupted?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v289/Zekk/corrupt-sister.jpg

Of course they can. The above's 'official' Games Workshop art, and besides the already mentioned Daemonifuge, Dan Abnett wrote a story about a corrupted Sister.

They however, go to quite some lengths to cover it up. ;)

Debate ended, methinks...! :p

fracas
04-09-2006, 03:17
It all depends on what you define as a sister of battle.
If a chick in power armor = SoB then yeah, there can be chaos SoB.

If a SoB is defined as a chick in power armor who derives her power from faith in the emperor, and this faith is return as per acts of faith rule, then no there cannot be a chaos sister of battle.
Note, that this is not just about faith, as surely many warriors have faith in the emperor, marines and average human, and many will also view the Emperor as God. But unique to the SoB is that this faith is somehow actionable power.

It is not to say that a chick in power armor once a SoB cannot be turned to chaos. But once she turns to chaos she would no longer have the miraculous power of faith. Thus having fallen she is no longer a SoB. This might be analogous to the difference between angels and demons that angels bereft of God are no longer angels but demons instead. I think this is more than just semantics.

In game term I can definitely see a SoB model or even a squad in a CSM army or a LotD army, but I would take significant issues (though I would still play against one) with a SoB army modelled all chaos/spikey (as most chaos conversions tend to favor) using acts of faith rules.

An alternative interpretation is that the Emperor really is a God, in a Chaos/Warp sense, and in this sense all SoB are already "CSoB." Now this is just semantics.

Malphax
04-09-2006, 03:47
I always got the impression that the Sisters derive their power of faith not from what they worship, but from the faith itself. Their bulletproof belief in something greater than themselves protects them, not their particular patron. The Emperor was always vehemently opposed to peole worshiping him when he wasn't Thronebound, so I doubt he completely approves of the Ecclesiarchy in any of its forms, so having the Sisters derive their power not from the Emperor himself but the idea of the Emperor makes a lot of sense to me.* It's quite possible for their faith to remain ever steadfast, but the object of their belief and worship eventually shifts to something less... wholesome. Simply rename "Hand of the Emperor" to "Fist of the Righteous" and you've got something that can easily apply to Chaos. Most, if not all, Chaos Marines regard themselves as righteous.

Also, I really hate to bring this up, as it's horribly cliched, but it applies. Frogs and lobsters are generally cooked alive. Place the animal in a pot of room-temperature water, and slowly boil it. The soon-to-be-food cooks without realizing its predicament until far too late. If the corruption is subtle enough, it may be nigh-impossible to detect until it's too rampant to stop. If you have the 3rd ed rulebook, read the story about the Sensei at the back of the book for an example of a Tzeentch coven that some members of the Inquisition viewed as a worthy band of Emperor-loving men until they found out otherwise.



*See: celebrity infatuation. Many people are very occupied with the comings and goings of various celebrities, and/or develop crushes on these people... who they've never met. Idea of a person indeed.

fracas
04-09-2006, 03:54
Malphax,

The problem is that Faith/Worship of the Emperor is not enough to grant "miraculous" power to non-SoB. Why then does it work with the SoB and SoB alone? Even the Priests of the Cult of the Emperor are not empowered thus.
Speculation wise, the head of the SoB was brought before the Emperor in person and only afterward were their place (and power?) as SoB manifested.

Malphax
04-09-2006, 04:05
But each individual Sister is not brought before the Emperor to gain her power. Before induction into the Order, they're just regular girls with no special power of any kind. If the Emperor is the original source of their power, how is that power passed on to other Sisters? Furthermore, if that power can be passed on to other Sisters, then isn't the knowledge of how to pass that power sufficient? So they could take their Emperor-imparted power and go elsewhere with it.

Obviously there is something about the Sisters' doctrine, or methods, or rituals that provides them with their miracles, something that other priests and cults don't have. This leads back to the point of the power coming from the faith itself, as how else can miracles be performed by the successive generations of Sisters?

fracas
04-09-2006, 04:45
the miracles are granted to them by the Emperor? at least by fluff this is suggested. may not make sense in the real world but this is how i interpret the fluff.

but lets assume your interpretation. would this power, the very power that defines a SoB, remain in effect if the sister turns chaos?

The_Patriot
04-09-2006, 05:03
Well reading the special rules for Sisters of Battle it's obvious that their special abilities come from the Emperor. They gain Shield of Faith in which force weapons do not affect them, major psyker powers are nullified on a 5+ roll, and minor psyker powers have no effect upon them. Under Acts of Faith the first line states Acts of Faith are a manifestation of the Emperor's divine purpose; I'm guessing that the Emperor protects them from the warp and shields them since he is the most powerful psyker in existence.

cailus
04-09-2006, 06:06
Another issue that makes it difficult for SoB to turn Chaos is that they do not exist in a void of isolation like Marines or Inquisitors. SoB are integrated into the very structure of the Church and have daily contact with other church and imperial officials.

Compare this to an inquisitor who works undercover or a Marine Chapter which is usually very insular and independent. Of course the SoB's have a degree of independence but not as much as the other two organisations - i.e. they still have report to another body.

The chance of SoB falling to Chaos is therefore even more unlikely because someone would notice changes in practices or dogma (especially in a paranoid institution such as the Imperium).

So wheras it's possible it's probably very difficult to convert to Chaos without someone noticing.

Outlaw289
04-09-2006, 06:07
Because of the "anything goes" theme of the 40k universe, I'd say there can be Chaos Sisters.

However, very very few. I imagine they'd be harder than Pariahs to convert to Chaos

cailus
04-09-2006, 06:16
Because of the "anything goes" theme of the 40k universe, I'd say there can be Chaos Sisters.

My new army is based on an alliance between the Imperium, Nid and Chaos forces. They are fighting to rid the universe of the threat posed by the Communist Tau.

My story is set slightly more in the future where the Nids, the Imperium and Chaos have developed extremely close ties based on trade and the love of freedom and democracy. The Tau on the other hand are just filthy reds.

The Nids, Chaos and Imperium form a defensive alliance called the National Arbitration and Trade Organisation, whose purpose is to defend democracy and increase trade.

The Tau want to destroy them because they are filthy reds. The Tau leader, Jo-seph-au Ste'el and his cronies, Pol Pot and M'ao Tse T'ung hate democracy and freedom so they wage a war on NATO.

My own force, the 1st Imperial Airborne, is currently based in the Viet of Nam battling evil red Tau insurgents who want to destroy the Namese democracy.

Outlaw289
04-09-2006, 06:34
My new army is based on an alliance between the Imperium, Nid and Chaos forces. They are fighting to rid the universe of the threat posed by the Communist Tau.

My story is set slightly more in the future where the Nids, the Imperium and Chaos have developed extremely close ties based on trade and the love of freedom and democracy. The Tau on the other hand are just filthy reds.

The Nids, Chaos and Imperium form a defensive alliance called the National Arbitration and Trade Organisation, whose purpose is to defend democracy and increase trade.

The Tau want to destroy them because they are filthy reds. The Tau leader, Jo-seph-au Ste'el and his cronies, Pol Pot and M'ao Tse T'ung hate democracy and freedom so they wage a war on NATO.

My own force, the 1st Imperial Airborne, is currently based in the Viet of Nam battling evil red Tau insurgents who want to destroy the Namese democracy.

:D :p

Hey, I never said I approved of the idea. Its just the nature of the current fluff.

cailus
04-09-2006, 06:54
I don't like this current perspective. It dilutes core principles of the fluff.

There is no point in having a setting or a universe where there are no core values, principles, ideas etc. Once you have diluted these, all you get is a horrid jumbled mess.

The_Patriot
04-09-2006, 06:59
I don't like this current perspective. It dilutes core principles of the fluff.

There is no point in having a setting or a universe where there are no core values, principles, ideas etc. Once you have diluted these, all you get is a horrid jumbled mess.

I agree with you on that Cailus. This was the major reason why I was attracted to fielding a pure Sisters army. It was the principles and the idea of a religious fervor that puts a person above corruption of Chaos. The other reason was the fact that there weren't many Sisters that have fallen to Chaos and served them. For an order that's roughly 5k years old I'd say having only a minute fraction falling to Chaos makes them undeniably unique in the 40k universe giving a player a sense of esprit de corps with the unit they've chosen. Sure you've got Space Marines and been done to death with 50% of them falling to the hands of Chaos and you've got the IG with the same story.

Outlaw289
04-09-2006, 07:05
I don't like this current perspective. It dilutes core principles of the fluff.

There is no point in having a setting or a universe where there are no core values, principles, ideas etc. Once you have diluted these, all you get is a horrid jumbled mess.

I agree with you. However, the BL doesn't and if this guy wants to have Chaos sisters we can't stop him.

cailus
04-09-2006, 07:21
He can have his Chaos Sisters of course. No-one is stopping him. I just don't agree with the idea.

As for the Black Library, my own opinion is that most of their writers have no idea about 40K and only write BL books because it's probably easier to tap into an established franchise than write something new and original.

I personally don't think most of them have ever played a game of 40K or Fantasy or painted a single model.

Tymell
04-09-2006, 08:58
He can have his Chaos Sisters of course. No-one is stopping him. I just don't agree with the idea.

As for the Black Library, my own opinion is that most of their writers have no idea about 40K and only write BL books because it's probably easier to tap into an established franchise than write something new and original.

I personally don't think most of them have ever played a game of 40K or Fantasy or painted a single model.

Depends on the author in question. Some are very much into it and that's -why- they write in the first place. Also, some writers who organise their projects a bit more closely with GW rather than just submitting something actually get sent a big pile of background material to read through as research.

As far as the Chaos Sisters thing goes I will just re-state: who cares? Fair enough, if you want to state your opinion here (since he did ask for it after all) then go right ahead, but there seem to be a lot of posts here vehemently saying he can't have them. Nope, doesn't work, not in the slightest, how dare you try to apply imagination to -our- game!

You can sit down and think hard about any race, imagine all the things that could happen to them, and you can either try to think in a way that limits them as much as possible, trying to think of ways that certain things can't exist, or you can try to think of ways that open things up and makes things more original. After all, there was at least one post early on here complaining about the number of Chaos Sisters armies dedicated to Slaanesh. Well that's an example of something that's been done and dusted. If you insist on saying "This army can't exist, that army can't exist", then do you really think anyone's ever going to come up with anything new after 30 years of warhammer? It's only by thinking more freely that you're going to get interesting ideas like that.

And as for all the stuff about them being faith based, don't you think Chaos worshippers have faith in their gods (which have a lot more open signs of intervention in the 40K world than the Emperor does)? Taking that nullifying psykers thing, that would be perfect for Tzeentch or Khorne, for example.


However, the BL doesn't and if this guy wants to have Chaos sisters we can't stop him.

I don't quite know if it's your intention, but are you aware of just how spiteful that sounds? Like you actually want to stop this guy from having his army just because you don't like it, and would stop it if you could?

Eblis_Dead_Forever
04-09-2006, 10:47
I appreciate all the feed back espically since it is constructive and well informed. The Patriot espically for bringing his extensive knowledge of the sisters fluff to the table. I agree that there is not alot in the established fluff to support it and quiet abit that even contradicts or at the least makes it more difficult to make the whole thing plausible. Faith is a very powerful tool there is no denying, but thats not to saw that it is infallible. It can be manipulated and warped even with support structures around to keep everything in check. It's easy to see examples of it in everyday life. Look at the Horus Hersey it was subtle, it took alot of work to corrupt Horus and even then his fall was gradual and happened over time. Even when Horus was turned it took alot of his tactical genuis to instigate the Hersey and make sure that threats if they couldn't be turned were removed or out of the way. But I'm straying abit here.

Anyway once again thanks to everybody for your feed back on this idea. Plus given that this idea is still in development for the depth of some of your arguements. I realise that this is my army so I can do what ever I want with it but 40k is a community based hobby it's about interaction with others. Thus I feel that it is only right that I get feedback on this idea because although I may think it is a good idea, I might be horribly misguided. As although I am the one devoting my time effort and cash into the idea, most of the satisfaction comes from others responces to it. Besides it never hurt to get other points of view. Once I get time I will post a more detailed back story on how all this happened and logically adjustments to the theroy behind the rules. It will be quiet indepth.

ben8s8
04-09-2006, 11:03
I think anyform of fluff can be made up to support the army idea for any army.
Just use your imagination, after all it is only make believe! Enjoy. :)

Ulfhedin
04-09-2006, 11:14
Chaos sisters - absolutely possible (as is loyal Emperor-loving black Legion).

By the way - Vandire wasn't a Chaos Worshipper. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

Check out www.tempusfugitives.co.uk for more sisters/vandire goodness in the Age of Apostasy!

Inq. Veltane
04-09-2006, 11:27
Whilst part of my loathes the idea of Chaos SoB the other part of me thinks that if Vandire, a mere man, could persuade the entire order of the Daughters of the Emperor to become his harem then they can't be entirely immune from corruption...

Cosmic_Girl
04-09-2006, 11:32
I think Sisters word bearers would be great! Would sisters have something like a chaplain?

C-girl.

PS: I think in Ephrael Stern one of the sisters gets possessed by a chaos demon and Ephrael kills her, so I think it can happen.

The_Patriot
04-09-2006, 11:34
Whilst part of my loathes the idea of Chaos SoB the other part of me thinks that if Vandire, a mere man, could persuade the entire order of the Daughters of the Emperor to become his harem then they can't be entirely immune from corruption...

Except that they weren't corrupted. They were deceived which is completely different from corruption. Upon finding out about the deception Alicia killed Vandire to end his reign.

Icarus
04-09-2006, 11:44
Indeed, there is a big difference between being tricked (by that little stunt with a Rosarius) and corrupted. And, as I'm very glad Ulfhedin pointed out, Vandire was NOT tainted by Chaos, its a common misconception. The Age of Apostasy was not a Chaos-related heresy, it was about the rise of a dictator and the greedy power-gathering of his supporters.

Eblis_Dead_Forever
04-09-2006, 12:01
Very true but it could be argued that had this deception not been brought to light who knows what might have happened. But this is grasping at straws although it does raise interesting questions.

Theres an extract regarding Ephrael Stern on the GW website from the graphic novel Demonifuge. There is part of it that states she was the only survivor from an attack by a keeper of secrets and that her sanity was left in tatters. Inquistor Hand was sent to see if she had came under the sway of the dark gods. He found that she was not tainted by chaos but the influence of the Ruinous powers was uncovered amidst the Sororitas.

I have not read the whole book but I think that this is worthy of inclusion in this discussion. Perhaps someone can shed further light on this.

fracas
04-09-2006, 12:49
in our gaming interpretation of the 40k universe, indeed anything goes.

but what would you say about a chaos necron lord?
or a beastmen army using acts of faith?

there is a line beyond which "anything goes" becomes "that's just not right"
;)

ultimately, Eblis is absolutely correct to judge that there must be a balance between a gamer's personal desire and respect for the fluff as recognized by the gaming community.

Inq. Veltane
04-09-2006, 13:06
Except that they weren't corrupted. They were deceived which is completely different from corruption. Upon finding out about the deception Alicia killed Vandire to end his reign.

Allow me to rephrase then. If Vandire can deceive the Sisters into thinking that it is their sacred duty to 'entertain' him and that by serving him they are serving the Emperor is it not possible, at least in theory, that a minor order of Sisters could be deceived into serving the Chaos Gods whilst thinking that they are actually doing the will of the Emperor?

Of course Thor put safeguards in place to prevent that from happening and the Inquisition watches the Sisters closely but could a group of Sisters on a isolated world mistake the imbuing with the subtle power of Tzeentch for an imbuing with the power of the Emperor? To follow what they believe to be a Living Saint but is actually a daemonic pawn? If they were isolated from the Inquisition whose task it is to test such Saints... it is perhaps possible.

Kriegsherr
04-09-2006, 13:10
Now, imagine the pope becoming a Satanist, or a plain ol' atheist. Unlikely, right? Yet Vandire was corrupted by Chaos...


Were did you read that? As far as I know, he was a normal, traditional, old-school madman. As the ones we have in politics and "political motivated" organisations nowadays. There might be religion behind it as motivation. But men never needed to be corrupted by "evil" to commit "evil" deeds...

That said.... maaaan..... of course Sister can become tainted. No one is immune against something. Zeal might give you a statistical lower chance to be turned to the "other side". But beware if the zealot is turned!

I'll say there will be nothing more terrible than a chaos sister. As faithful as she was to the god-emperor before, she is now to the powers of the warp. So she should be rewarded by them quickly.

I'd say use csm to represent chaos sister veterans.... So that they are a lot harder than simple celestia.... They should be heavy converted though....

I personally like the slanni sisters idea even though its old school. If its well done on the conversion side of course.

The_Patriot
04-09-2006, 13:16
Allow me to rephrase then. If Vandire can deceive the Sisters into thinking that it is their sacred duty to 'entertain' him and that by serving him they are serving the Emperor is it not possible, at least in theory, that a minor order of Sisters could be deceived into serving the Chaos Gods whilst thinking that they are actually doing the will of the Emperor?

Of course Thor put safeguards in place to prevent that from happening and the Inquisition watches the Sisters closely but could a group of Sisters on a isolated world mistake the imbuing with the subtle power of Tzeentch for an imbuing with the power of the Emperor? To follow what they believe to be a Living Saint but is actually a daemonic pawn? If they were isolated from the Inquisition whose task it is to test such Saints... it is perhaps possible.

Keep in mind something about the fluff concerning Vandire. He was the one that discovered the Daughters of the Emperor and brought them into the service of the Church. Since these orders are well established and have the Orders Dialogous as a storehouse of knowledge in theory no it's not possible.

The problem with Tzeentch imbuing his power into a sister to make a living saint is that his powers are unique in look and feel. Since the manifestation of his power is sorcery it's the complete opposite of the living saint's powers. Also in order for someone to be a living saint they must undergo intense scrutiny of the Church, as well as the order they belong to, to ensure that they are indeed a living saint not an imposter. Any imposters are put either into the Arco-flagallants or strapped to a penitent engine to ensure their death.

Eblis_Dead_Forever
04-09-2006, 13:48
Just a thought from what I gather it is hard to find a way for the sisters of battle to be corrupted or tainted in all but the most extreme circumstances and given the way they run for it to spread. But what about through the training process or relatively new recruits is it possible, for them to say out of desperation, following some disaster, to rush new blood in without the usually rigirous training and screening processes. Thus making them more susceptible to the taint of chaos??? Desperate times call for drastic measures, like Corax rebuilding his legion after the drop site massarces.

Inq. Veltane
04-09-2006, 13:52
It would have to occur on a world which was isolated from the rest of the Imperium by Warp Storms because I absolutely agree that under normal circumstances it could not occur. It is only if the safeguards which Thor instituted in his reforms were somehow negated that we can even begin to consider a chain of events which would lead towards this end.

I think you are being too limited in Tzeentch's powers though, he is the master of subtle... Consider the (Fantasy) hero whose very footsteps bring new life with them.

A (almost plausible) scenario for the gradual corruption of a small convent:

On an isolated agriworld a convent is founded to watch over the people who are still in a quite primitive stage of development. They are the shining beacon's of the Emperor's glory and other than perhaps a small force of Arbites and the planetary governor who is based on the other side of the continent in a palatial estate there are no 'educated' humans on the planet.

Warp Storms engulf the planet and there is a subtle shift in the climate which causes feral orks grow from spores that have laid dormant for many centuries. A small waagh spills forth and the Arbites dedicate themselves to protecting the Governor, deciding to leave the people to the mercies of the invaders. The Sisters feel it is their duty to protect the Emperor's children and so go to war. The war is long and hard and sees the deaths of many experienced Sisters. Tzeentch subtly weaves the strands of fate to ensure that those who are purest of heart are those who die first. When only a small remnant remains, surrounded in the Convent, they meet and pray for a miracle. They then go out to battle and a particularly young and weak Sister is imbued with power. None of the surviving sisters have ever seen a Living Saint and so they assume that is what this must be...afterall did they not pray for just such a miracle?

The 'Saint' leads the liberation of the world and assumes command of the surviving sisters. Because of her obvious favour with the Emperor she is respected and has the oppurtunity to gradually pervert the Ecclesiarchy's teachings over a number of decades. She persuades the sisters that it is their duty to kill those who obviously were more concerned with their own safety than with the Emperor's work. They attack and kill the Governor and the Arbites and in doing so become even more under the thrall of the Dark Powers.

With more time they become increasingly corrupted until, when the Warp Storms cease, they head forth on a 'War of Faith' against the Ecclesiarchy that they now see as a perversion of the Emperor's truth.

You could even have the Sisters discover ancient texts which guide them in their damnations, ones from before the ascendancy of the Temple of the Saviour Emperor which prevent the Emperor's will as being very different from the modern Imperium. The Sisters believe that they fight for the Emperor and are blind to the obvious corruption within their own ranks...

The_Patriot
04-09-2006, 13:53
Just a thought from what I gather it is hard to find a way for the sisters of battle to be corrupted or tainted in all but the most extreme circumstances and given the way they run for it to spread. But what about through the training process or relatively new recruits is it possible, for them to say out of desperation, following some disaster, to rush new blood in without the usually rigirous training and screening processes. Thus making them more susceptible to the taint of chaos??? Desperate times call for drastic measures, like Corax rebuilding his legion after the drop site massarces.

Well the Church maintains orphanages on every planet in the Imperium and from those orphanages they get the children who will become Sisters of Battle. They enter training at a very young age and do not enter the Orders until after they have passed all their tests. Those that don't make it through the training are washed out and placed within the Church in some role. The role could be a secretary etc..., but they definately won't be allowed access to the armor or equipment of the Orders Militant.

The_Patriot
04-09-2006, 14:02
It would have to occur on a world which was isolated from the rest of the Imperium by Warp Storms because I absolutely agree that under normal circumstances it could not occur. It is only if the safeguards which Thor instituted in his reforms were somehow negated that we can even begin to consider a chain of events which would lead towards this end.

I think you are being too limited in Tzeentch's powers though, he is the master of subtle... Consider the (Fantasy) hero whose very footsteps bring new life with them.

A (almost plausible) scenario for the gradual corruption of a small convent:

On an isolated agriworld a convent is founded to watch over the people who are still in a quite primitive stage of development. They are the shining beacon's of the Emperor's glory and other than perhaps a small force of Arbites and the planetary governor who is based on the other side of the continent in a palatial estate there are no 'educated' humans on the planet.

Warp Storms engulf the planet and there is a subtle shift in the climate which causes feral orks grow from spores that have laid dormant for many centuries. A small waagh spills forth and the Arbites dedicate themselves to protecting the Governor, deciding to leave the people to the mercies of the invaders. The Sisters feel it is their duty to protect the Emperor's children and so go to war. The war is long and hard and sees the deaths of many experienced Sisters. Tzeentch subtly weaves the strands of fate to ensure that those who are purest of heart are those who die first. When only a small remnant remains, surrounded in the Convent, they meet and pray for a miracle. They then go out to battle and a particularly young and weak Sister is imbued with power. None of the surviving sisters have ever seen a Living Saint and so they assume that is what this must be...afterall did they not pray for just such a miracle?

The 'Saint' leads the liberation of the world and assumes command of the surviving sisters. Because of her obvious favour with the Emperor she is respected and has the oppurtunity to gradually pervert the Ecclesiarchy's teachings over a number of decades. She persuades the sisters that it is their duty to kill those who obviously were more concerned with their own safety than with the Emperor's work. They attack and kill the Governor and the Arbites and in doing so become even more under the thrall of the Dark Powers.

With more time they become increasingly corrupted until, when the Warp Storms cease, they head forth on a 'War of Faith' against the Ecclesiarchy that they now see as a perversion of the Emperor's truth.

You could even have the Sisters discover ancient texts which guide them in their damnations, ones from before the ascendancy of the Temple of the Saviour Emperor which prevent the Emperor's will as being very different from the modern Imperium. The Sisters believe that they fight for the Emperor and are blind to the obvious corruption within their own ranks...

That I can buy except for the War of Faith part and the living saint. In order to participate in a War of Faith there needs to be an edict issued by the Church at the highest levels and must follow the Decree Passive. For the living saint there would be records in the convent detailing the requirements and what a living saint is. Among those records would be descriptions of powers and abilities shown by a living saint. Think of it as how the Catholic Church decides who a saint is and how tough it is to have a saint declared. Last but not least is the iconography showing the living saints and how they appear. Tzeentch couldn't replicate the divine light that surrounds and engulfs a saint nor the abilities possessed by the saint. It is beyond his realm.

Kriegsherr
04-09-2006, 14:26
The problem with Tzeentch imbuing his power into a sister to make a living saint is that his powers are unique in look and feel. Since the manifestation of his power is sorcery it's the complete opposite of the living saint's powers. Also in order for someone to be a living saint they must undergo intense scrutiny of the Church, as well as the order they belong to, to ensure that they are indeed a living saint not an imposter. Any imposters are put either into the Arco-flagallants or strapped to a penitent engine to ensure their death.

I always thought of the living saints powers as some kind of warp powers.
I don't think its so much different from sorcery other than its seen by the witch hunters as beeing "the manifestation of his will". So its more due to the ignorance of the inquisition and the religious leaders that its not seen as warp sorcery, or maybe its even a really safe kind of sorcery (as I never read anything about a living saint beeing possessed), instead of "anti-magic" or such kind of BS.
But thats just what I read out of the Dex... fact is, they never did make it clear, and left it open for interpretation.

About the test put on living saints.... they vary, as does the zeal, the dogmatics and faith itself of the church over time. Also consider there are many worlds were the strong arm of the Imperium or the Ministorum is weak and noone is there to enforce "tests of faith" upon a living saint.... especially if you consider how powerful they can be.

There is always more to the church than the official rules. If the masses believe something, it will become the thruth until enough military force can be applied to show them the errors of their ways and purge them

And: Tzeentch is the master of sorcery and the changer of ways. There is virtually nothing he can't do as he is the shaper of the past and the future.
Granted, a very faithful and expierenced preacher or inquisitor might get suspicious.... but to mere mortals, It would be the same.

The_Patriot
04-09-2006, 14:39
I always thought of the living saints powers as some kind of warp powers.
I don't think its so much different from sorcery other than its seen by the witch hunters as beeing "the manifestation of his will". So its more due to the ignorance of the inquisition and the religious leaders that its not seen as warp sorcery, or maybe its even a really safe kind of sorcery (as I never read anything about a living saint beeing possessed), instead of "anti-magic" or such kind of BS.
But thats just what I read out of the Dex... fact is, they never did make it clear, and left it open for interpretation.

About the test put on living saints.... they vary, as does the zeal, the dogmatics and faith itself of the church over time. Also consider there are many worlds were the strong arm of the Imperium or the Ministorum is weak and noone is there to enforce "tests of faith" upon a living saint.... especially if you consider how powerful they can be.

From WH Codex on Living Saints as to their powers:

She was an angel, pure as righteous destruction. She laid low the twisted and lifted the hearts of the righteous. At her passing, a million voices cried out her name.

Another quote regarding them and their powers.

A Living Saint is an avenging angel, a terrible and wondrous being to witness, for they shine with the purest light, and bring death and destruction to the impure.

A quote regarding the process of declaring a living saint:

Before an individual can be declared a Living Saint, a joint enclave of the Inquisition and the Ecclesiarchy must first affirm that the declaration is true, and the individual is just and pure.

As you can see this is not something that Tzeentch can replicate. His power deals with sorcery and he cannot protect a person from force weapons or major/minor psyker powers. He just can't do it according to the CSM codex.

EDIT: I forgot to add that in the description for Celestine she is accompanied by cherubs and doves, wears golden armor that burns the eyes due to its radiant pure light, carries a sword that also burns the eyes and has the scent of sweet petals, glows divine light that carries her aloft, and when she looks at someone they feel the need to adore her and strike infernal terror equally.

Kriegsherr
04-09-2006, 14:56
From WH Codex on Living Saints as to their powers:

She was an angel, pure as righteous destruction. She laid low the twisted and lifted the hearts of the righteous. At her passing, a million voices cried out her name.

Another quote regarding them and their powers.

A Living Saint is an avenging angel, a terrible and wondrous being to witness, for they shine with the purest light, and bring death and destruction to the impure.

A quote regarding the process of declaring a living saint:

Before an individual can be declared a Living Saint, a joint enclave of the Inquisition and the Ecclesiarchy must first affirm that the declaration is true, and the individual is just and pure.

As you can see this is not something that Tzeentch can replicate. His power deals with sorcery and he cannot protect a person from force weapons or major/minor psyker powers. He just can't do it according to the CSM codex.


Okay, now two thing:

1. There is Fluff and there are Rules. the two should match.... ideally.
BUT - You can't say much regarding fluff from looking at the rules... its a blurry image at best that you get. Tzeentch SHOULD be able to protect his pupils from his "own powers"... granted, he is a tricky bastard and likes to have a laugh at the cost of his own followers, but he could give them some sort of immunity.... as he IS magic!

(Keep in mind I never said he could create a Entity that would be a perfect copy... only that it would be able to trick the normal mortals, something that is very eay to acomplish)

2. There are "official" living saints. The ones declared by the church to be ones. But every living saint starts as a entity very closely watched by the church and inquisition because they can't really decide at first if its a living saint... or a possesed. The difference is hard to tell, thats why tests of faith are needed.
But living saints are not kept in captivety until someone declare them to be living saints. Most of them are declared livings saints after their deaths.

So its absolutely possible that an "unofficial" living saint is at the vanguard of a crusade, having "been gifted with his powers" during the crusade, and dies very very long before the very very slow church official machinery even get to discussing his case.

This is exactly what the story of the WH special character suggested.


And finally: Religious people are still human. Preachers are still human. Inquisitors are still human. Space Marines, though not beeing human physically, share still some psychological weaknesses with humans.
All of them can be deceived. Its also up to their personal judgement if they recognize the holy as holy and the tainted as tainted. No book, no rules and no long indoctrination can ever lift the burden of having to choose from a persons shoulders.

The_Patriot
04-09-2006, 15:06
I always thought of the living saints powers as some kind of warp powers.
I don't think its so much different from sorcery other than its seen by the witch hunters as beeing "the manifestation of his will". So its more due to the ignorance of the inquisition and the religious leaders that its not seen as warp sorcery, or maybe its even a really safe kind of sorcery (as I never read anything about a living saint beeing possessed), instead of "anti-magic" or such kind of BS.
But thats just what I read out of the Dex... fact is, they never did make it clear, and left it open for interpretation.

About the test put on living saints.... they vary, as does the zeal, the dogmatics and faith itself of the church over time. Also consider there are many worlds were the strong arm of the Imperium or the Ministorum is weak and noone is there to enforce "tests of faith" upon a living saint.... especially if you consider how powerful they can be.

There is always more to the church than the official rules. If the masses believe something, it will become the thruth until enough military force can be applied to show them the errors of their ways and purge them

And: Tzeentch is the master of sorcery and the changer of ways. There is virtually nothing he can't do as he is the shaper of the past and the future.
Granted, a very faithful and expierenced preacher or inquisitor might get suspicious.... but to mere mortals, It would be the same.


Okay, now two thing:

1. There is Fluff and there are Rules. the two should match.... ideally.
BUT - You can't say much regarding fluff from looking at the rules... its a blurry image at best that you get. Tzeentch SHOULD be able to protect his pupils from his "own powers"... granted, he is a tricky bastard and likes to have a laugh at the cost of his own followers, but he could give them some sort of immunity.... as he IS magic!

(Keep in mind I never said he could create a Entity that would be a perfect copy... only that it would be able to trick the normal mortals, something that is very eay to acomplish)

2. There are "official" living saints. The ones declared by the church to be ones. But every living saint starts as a entity very closely watched by the church and inquisition because they can't really decide at first if its a living saint... or a possesed. The difference is hard to tell, thats why tests of faith are needed.
But living saints are not kept in captivety until someone declare them to be living saints. Most of them are declared livings saints after their deaths.

So its absolutely possible that an "unofficial" living saint is at the vanguard of a crusade, having "been gifted with his powers" during the crusade, and dies very very long before the very very slow church official machinery even get to discussing his case.

This is exactly what the story of the WH special character suggested.


And finally: Religious people are still human. Preachers are still human. Inquisitors are still human. Space Marines, though not beeing human physically, share still some psychological weaknesses with humans.
All of them can be deceived. Its also up to their personal judgement if they recognize the holy as holy and the tainted as tainted. No book, no rules and no long indoctrination can ever lift the burden of having to choose from a persons shoulders.

1. In Faith and Fire the Sisters were protected from the psyker and his attacks, except for one who failed her test and she became a repentia after he violated her mind. BTW it took major effort on his part and several minutes of a direct assault to breach the barriers to her mind. That fulfills your requirement for fluff matching rules does it not? Yet Tzeentch does not grant the ability to be safe from psyker attacks in the fluff and in the rules concerning him in Codex Chaos Space Marines. His majik cannot replicate what the emperor bestows upon a living saint. There's no fluff supporting your position.

2. Your statements contradict the fluff surrounding a living saint. Those that are declared to not be a living saint are put to death either in the arco-flaggallents or strapped to a penitent engine. If a person fails to show the outward signs as established they are put to death and are not followed. Which is a sticking point since it doesn't bypass the iconography and the religious texts that would be in the convent.

EDIT: One last thing which is according to Tzeetch's listing in Codex Chaos Space Marines he targets only sorcerers and the Sisters don't have any pyskers nor do they have psyker powers.

Inq. Veltane
04-09-2006, 15:09
That I can buy except for the War of Faith part and the living saint. In order to participate in a War of Faith there needs to be an edict issued by the Church at the highest levels and must follow the Decree Passive. For the living saint there would be records in the convent detailing the requirements and what a living saint is. Among those records would be descriptions of powers and abilities shown by a living saint. Think of it as how the Catholic Church decides who a saint is and how tough it is to have a saint declared. Last but not least is the iconography showing the living saints and how they appear. Tzeentch couldn't replicate the divine light that surrounds and engulfs a saint nor the abilities possessed by the saint. It is beyond his realm.

But by the time Tzeentch clears the Warp Storms the Sisters have been convinced that the High Lords and the Ecclesiarchy are corrupt and so their rules no longer need to be followed - because they are guided by the Emperor directly through the 'Saint'. The War of Faith will, of course, not officially be recognised as such but as the Sisters have now placed themselves outside the authority of the High Lords they will prosecute it anyway and, in their minds, it will be a War of Faith.

The Saint is surrounded by an aura of bright light, her very touch can bring healing and her eyes burn with the fire of the Emperor's Wrath. She preaches that the Ecclesiarchy are corrupt and that it is the duty of the remnant to fight for change... Strong, fast, surrounded by light and with a healing touch... That could easily pass for a Living Saint...

An experienced Inquisitor or Canoness would probably spot the signs but the 'Saint' would kill such individuals rather than allowing them to escape with news of her nature. These acts could be easily justified to her Sisters once they were sufficiently corrupted...

Of course when the Inquisition learnt what had happened they would probably devote considerable resources to destroying the threat and learning as much as possible about its cause. Such a perversion of the faith would cause a true War of Faith to be called to meet in and thus these Sisters become even more convinced that the Imperium does not truely serve the Emperor - because if it did it would support them and not fight them.

The_Patriot
04-09-2006, 15:22
But by the time Tzeentch clears the Warp Storms the Sisters have been convinced that the High Lords and the Ecclesiarchy are corrupt and so their rules no longer need to be followed - because they are guided by the Emperor directly through the 'Saint'. The War of Faith will, of course, not officially be recognised as such but as the Sisters have now placed themselves outside the authority of the High Lords they will prosecute it anyway and, in their minds, it will be a War of Faith.

The Saint is surrounded by an aura of bright light, her very touch can bring healing and her eyes burn with the fire of the Emperor's Wrath. She preaches that the Ecclesiarchy are corrupt and that it is the duty of the remnant to fight for change... Strong, fast, surrounded by light and with a healing touch... That could easily pass for a Living Saint...

An experienced Inquisitor or Canoness would probably spot the signs but the 'Saint' would kill such individuals rather than allowing them to escape with news of her nature. These acts could be easily justified to her Sisters once they were sufficiently corrupted...

Of course when the Inquisition learnt what had happened they would probably devote considerable resources to destroying the threat and learning as much as possible about its cause. Such a perversion of the faith would cause a true War of Faith to be called to meet in and thus these Sisters become even more convinced that the Imperium does not truely serve the Emperor - because if it did it would support them and not fight them.

See my replies to Kriegsherr.

Inq. Veltane
04-09-2006, 15:46
The problem is that you are both underestimating the power of Tzeentch and also the effect that a chain of unusual circumstances can have.

Of course normally she wouldn't be recognised as a Living Saint but isolated on the planet I'm suggesting there is nobody other than a collection of young and tired Sisters to test whether one of their number is blessed by the Emperor. Look at religious groups in the real world, they are always prone to thinking positively. They asked the Emperor for a miracle and a miracle occured...thus it must have been a miracle from the Emperor. The surviving Sisters probably have little direct experience of Chaos. They have been through a gruelling war with Orks and have probably been attacked by eldar pirates but the forces of the Dark Powers they know only through the sacred texts. Maybe one or two sisters have doubts but they are quickly shouted down and when miracles of healing are performed even the doubters begin to be convinced.

Hope is a powerful force, if the Sisters wanted to believe it was the Emperor protecting them then they probably would. The idea that it is the first step in the path to damnation would not occur, because those to whom it would occur have already been eliminated. It is an elaborate, complex plot but isn't that the very stuff of Tzeentch?

IG88
04-09-2006, 15:51
On the subject of Chaos Grey Knights, I am absolutely against the idea. I find it in horrible taste. Basing your army's fluff around Grey Knights that have fallen to Chaos is tantamount to declaring "Nothing is sacred." If you just want to use the Grey Knight models and Chaos them up, I'm all for that (they're sweet models!). But I draw the line at centering your backstory around the corruption of those who are supposed to be utterly uncorruptible. It's admitting that Chaos is stronger than the Imperial faith, something which should not be in the endless Mexican standoff that is the 41st millenium.

That being said, do whatever you want with your own models in your own games. But let's try to respect the fluff, at least to some degree; else why are we specifically playing 40k?

Eblis_Dead_Forever
04-09-2006, 15:52
Although I find myself asking what does Tzeench have to gain from turning a small convent of sisters to chaos. Plus is it possible for them to survive in the long term as the Inquistion would go out of their way to erradicate them.

Eblis_Dead_Forever
04-09-2006, 15:54
IG I said nothing about Chaos Grey Knights, infact no one has, please read the posts before commenting.

Inq. Veltane
04-09-2006, 16:21
Although I find myself asking what does Tzeench have to gain from turning a small convent of sisters to chaos. Plus is it possible for them to survive in the long term as the Inquistion would go out of their way to erradicate them.

Who knows with Tzeentch? Obviously their attacks on the Imperium will achieve something, the destruction of a potential future leader or Inquisitor perhaps? Imagine if when they fall upon worlds they attack Schola Progenia first in order to 'liberate' the orphans of the Emperor and train them up? How many potential Inquisitors, Canonesses and Commissars might they prevent from existing? How many battles might that turn, how many cults may that allow to continue to prosper?

For the record I'm also completely against Corrupted Grey Knights. They are too familiar with Chaos to fall for it. My scenario only works because the Sisters in it are not familiar with Chaos... It also relies on an incredibly unlikely chain of events to cause it. I don't like the idea of Chaos Sisters, but Corrupted Sisters fighting against the Imperium but 'For the Emperor' does have a certain poetic feel to it.

The_Patriot
04-09-2006, 16:36
Well read Daemonifuge and I can tell ya that even when the sisters died they sought redemption for their transgressions. They gave their life force to Epherial and managed to spirit her away to a different planet. Once they had done this they waited for her to return and to redeem them by killing the Keeper of Secrets that had seduced them.

Eblis_Dead_Forever
04-09-2006, 16:49
There is a certain poetic irony to it which is one the reasons I want to do it. I think that there alot of pit falls involved with the idea but if it is done right that it will be worth it. Thus it is open to change over the course of it's developement, it's still in the concept stages as it were. It's also playing with preconcieved notions of the 40k universe this one being that all sisters of battle are complete devot and have complete faith in the Emperor as a God. I guess by wanting a plausible justification for doing this I'm leaving the door open for all sorts of other ideas and questions. To a certain degree that is bound to make people uncomfortable doubly so for people who play with SoB because of their background and what they stand for.

I may yet drop the idea if I feel that it can't or shouldn't be done and just do a standard Sisters army. Like I said before I don't think personal desire to do an army a certain way should come before the hobby as a whole, unless it's only for abit of fun.

Inq. Veltane
04-09-2006, 16:52
Well...I think my Sisters would love to face such a force. The Sisters exist to find and destroy the tainted and the heretical... To see some of their own fallen so would be both a lesson in humility and also would fill them with righteous zeal to destroy such a force utterly, whatever the cost. Of course the Inquisitors would rather capture and interrogate and... it would be an interesting campaign.

Tymell
04-09-2006, 16:56
Well read Daemonifuge and I can tell ya that even when the sisters died they sought redemption for their transgressions. They gave their life force to Epherial and managed to spirit her away to a different planet. Once they had done this they waited for her to return and to redeem them by killing the Keeper of Secrets that had seduced them.

Yes, those were the ones who remained loyal. Did you also notice the rather large number of chaos-worshiping ones who were on the Keepers side?

Eblis_Dead_Forever
04-09-2006, 16:56
There's an interesting point that has to be considered as well just because they fall doesn't mean that they are beyond redemption. A running army background might be very interesting thing to do. Do they continue to fall or find redemption? If their transgressions are really serve do they ever find true redemption? Since they fell once whats to say they don't fall again?

The_Patriot
04-09-2006, 16:58
Yes, those were the ones who remained loyal. Did you also notice the rather large number of chaos-worshiping ones who were on the Keepers side?

I haven't read part 2 yet of the graphic novel. ;)

The_Patriot
04-09-2006, 16:59
There's an interesting point that has to be considered as well just because they fall doesn't mean that they are beyond redemption. A running army background might be very interesting thing to do. Do they continue to fall or find redemption? If their transgressions are really serve do they ever find true redemption? Since they fell once whats to say they don't fall again?

They can only find redemption in death so they get one chance at it.

Eblis_Dead_Forever
04-09-2006, 17:00
Good to see that some topics in 40k can still promote a lively debate.

Tymell
04-09-2006, 17:01
They can only find redemption in death so they get one chance at it.

Well that would be an imperial way of looking at it certainly, the sisters themselves might perhaps be a bit more flexible ;)

A good point about the changing background though, Eblis. It'd be nice to see not only a theme, but a running and evolving theme no less. Sorry, but armies with this level of backstory and themeyness are few and far between, and kudos to you for creating such a thing. Balls to any who try to deny it's existence because it doesn't fit with how they see the background :)


The Age of Apostasy was not a Chaos-related heresy, it was about the rise of a dictator and the greedy power-gathering of his supporters.

Followed by a group of people doing basically the same :p Sorry, not trying to disagree with you at all or take this off-topic, but I can't help but think (perhaps thinking of today's politicians) that since he didn't actually worship Chaos he probably wasn't that different to most other higher-ups within the Imperium.

The_Patriot
04-09-2006, 17:07
One quote from Part 1 of Daemonifuge strikes me and reinforces a point that fallen Sisters do not have access to Acts of Faith. Here's the quote from Epherial.

All is chaos and unreason... the absence of faith...

The_Patriot
04-09-2006, 17:13
Well that would be an imperial way of looking at it certainly, the sisters themselves might perhaps be a bit more flexible ;)


Codex Witch Hunters accompanying the listing for the Immolator and Exorcist: Heretics crave the cleansing fire of absolution. They need not fear, for we shall deliver.

Fluff accompanying Sisters Repentia: To the Adepta Sororitas, those who seek absolution as a Sister Repentia occupy a state of grace that many aspire to, yet few ever attain, for to earn redemption is to give oneself entirely to the will of the Emperor. Confession and penance are part of a Sister's everyday existance, and those who fall short of the Sisterhood's rigorous codes may, in the most extreme cases, find themselves exiled from their Order or banded into groups armed with the mighty eviscerators and led into battle by the harsh mistress. Indeed, through a deep seated desire to seek the Emperor's grace, some may willingly exile themselves, finding fault in the smallest imagined transgressions. These Sisters become outcasts seeking death in the heat of battle, yet at the same time revered by their Sisters, who see them as pilgrims seeking that which can only be found in death-absolution.

If I must die, I shall welcome Death as an old friend, and wrap my arms about it.

It appears that the Sisters do think that way. :D

Simsandwich
04-09-2006, 17:16
Let him do it.
It would be great, as long as its not Slaanesh, otherwise I'd call you a perv, Acts Of Faith=Faith to the Dark Gods.
Now, anyone can be tainted, heck, Commisars will turn to Chaos, as will Inquisitors.
It'd look great.
Go For It Dude, paint em up real nicely and tell the arguers to get to..

bnf
04-09-2006, 17:36
2. A cannoness would rather eat a bullet then fall to chaos.

Sure, but would Chaos announce itself and say "Hi, I'm the corruption spreading through you, I wish to kindly inform you that you only have a few days left to take measures until you will have fallen."? :eek:

What I'm saying is, Chaos is sneaky (Well apart from Khornates of course :evilgrin: ) - numerous scenarios have been presented in this thread (mostly isolation) that would allow for Sisters to get corrupted.

Tymell
04-09-2006, 17:43
Codex Witch Hunters accompanying the listing for the Immolator and Exorcist: Heretics crave the cleansing fire of absolution. They need not fear, for we shall deliver.

Fluff accompanying Sisters Repentia: To the Adepta Sororitas, those who seek absolution as a Sister Repentia occupy a state of grace that many aspire to, yet few ever attain, for to earn redemption is to give oneself entirely to the will of the Emperor. Confession and penance are part of a Sister's everyday existance, and those who fall short of the Sisterhood's rigorous codes may, in the most extreme cases, find themselves exiled from their Order or banded into groups armed with the mighty eviscerators and led into battle by the harsh mistress. Indeed, through a deep seated desire to seek the Emperor's grace, some may willingly exile themselves, finding fault in the smallest imagined transgressions. These Sisters become outcasts seeking death in the heat of battle, yet at the same time revered by their Sisters, who see them as pilgrims seeking that which can only be found in death-absolution.

If I must die, I shall welcome Death as an old friend, and wrap my arms about it.

It appears that the Sisters do think that way. :D


Sorry, I meant the Chaos sisters themselves, that they might not be quite so keen on the ole absolution and fire and so on. I apologise if that wasn't clear.

Kriegsherr
04-09-2006, 17:43
I fear, The_Patriot, that you take fluff, that is meant allegorically, literally.

All fluff in Dexes and in a lot of books is overexagerated to the point were it reaches mythical dimensions. If everything in all codexes is taken literelly its the usual immobile object meets irrestible force problem.

And no, thats not the way I read the living saint fluff. True, the tested ones have a high probabilety to be "real" saints, but until the slow machinery of the ministorum can test a subject, it can do a lot of things. And not all inquisitors see the danger of letting such a powerful subject to live and roam free as a price to high for the morale boost it can give to imperial troops.

You will not be able to convince me of your point... so lets just agree that, as usual, GW leaves a lot of room for interpretation in their fluff. So its not very fruitful to discuss details like this.... as GW fluff is also "heroic scale"

One last thing: A codex is not the bible.... please stop quoting dex fluff that not even is found in the fluff section, but in the armylist. We all have read Codex WH I think, and have made up our own interpretation of it.
If you have other sources for your.... radical theories, please share them with us, we would be keen to hear were you get your information from.
Thank you.

Eblis_Dead_Forever
04-09-2006, 17:57
I think that all that is left to do is to get on with it and see what happens. It will be a quiet a large undertaking as it entails alot more than simply modeling, painting and converting the army. But also fluff and background. I guess what makes it more interesting is how it will all end. Anyway I shall keep you all updated as to how things develope. I hope that it shall be an interesting and exciting experience for all that follow it.

I appreciate everyones input, feedback and encouragement. Like I said before most of the reward about doing anything like this is the responces of fellow gamers, like Tymell. Plus anything that is worth while doing sparks debate and causes controversy, something this has done plenty of already.

Gen.Steiner
04-09-2006, 18:02
Woops! Vandire didn't worship Chaos, true, my mistake. 'owever, he wasn't exactly an upstanding member of the congregation, was he...? :p

The main issue here is this: It is entirely possible for Sisters of Battle to fall to the Dark Gods. It's happened in the background, it's plausible, why not.

Now, Acts of Faith appear to be the sticking point for The_Patriot, right?

Well, why not have their blind devotion to the God-Emperor replaced by an equally strong faith and devotion to the Dark Gods, and all of a sudden you get the same results - Acts of Faith. Just a different faith.

As for Tzeentch being unable to mimic a Living Saint - he doesn't need to, he just needs to ensure that the Conclave of Inquisitors and Priests investigating the Saint are themselves his pawns. Which is much easier. :D

Finally, Chaos Grey Knights - why not? After all, to say that they can't fall implies that faith in the God-Emperor is stronger than the Chaos Gods, which tips the scales the other way, and the Imperium should've won by now if they've got troops who are incorruptible.

The fact is that human beings are always corruptible, and that everyone has a price - it's just that that price varies.

The_Patriot
04-09-2006, 18:06
I fear, The_Patriot, that you take fluff, that is meant allegorically, literally.

All fluff in Dexes and in a lot of books is overexagerated to the point were it reaches mythical dimensions. If everything in all codexes is taken literelly its the usual immobile object meets irrestible force problem.

And no, thats not the way I read the living saint fluff. True, the tested ones have a high probabilety to be "real" saints, but until the slow machinery of the ministorum can test a subject, it can do a lot of things. And not all inquisitors see the danger of letting such a powerful subject to live and roam free as a price to high for the morale boost it can give to imperial troops.

You will not be able to convince me of your point... so lets just agree that, as usual, GW leaves a lot of room for interpretation in their fluff. So its not very fruitful to discuss details like this.... as GW fluff is also "heroic scale"

One last thing: A codex is not the bible.... please stop quoting dex fluff that not even is found in the fluff section, but in the armylist. We all have read Codex WH I think, and have made up our own interpretation of it.
If you have other sources for your.... radical theories, please share them with us, we would be keen to hear were you get your information from.
Thank you.

In short you'll ignore an official source even when it disagrees with you. Fluff is fluff regardless of the source. Also the codexes are the bible for the races they detail. Afterall the Codexes came before the novels.

Eblis_Dead_Forever
04-09-2006, 18:07
And oftentimes, to win us to our harm,
The instruments of darkness tell us truths,
Win us with trifles, to betray's
In deepest consequnece.
- William Shakespeare, Macbeth

The_Patriot
04-09-2006, 18:10
Now, Acts of Faith appear to be the sticking point for The_Patriot, right?

Well, why not have their blind devotion to the God-Emperor replaced by an equally strong faith and devotion to the Dark Gods, and all of a sudden you get the same results - Acts of Faith. Just a different faith.

Pretty much my only sticking point regarding this. If they fell they lose their faith they gain chaos powers instead as per the CSM Codex. That's where I stand on it since Daemonifuge and the fluff surrounding Miriael Sabathiel shows that a fallen Sister no longer has any faith thus is unable to generate faith nor use acts of faith. They would also lose their abilities to be affected by force weapons, cannot take psyker powers, and are affected by psyker powers like other humans.

Inq. Veltane
04-09-2006, 18:10
The problem is that, like the bible, the fluff isn't always entirely consistent. It has to be interpreted into a wider framework in order to make sense. Taking individual 'verses' out of context is dangerous, you have to understand the Witch Hunters in the context of the Imperium and Humanity as a whole.

The_Patriot
04-09-2006, 18:12
The problem is that, like the bible, the fluff isn't always entirely consistent. It has to be interpreted into a wider framework in order to make sense. Taking individual 'verses' out of context is dangerous, you have to understand the Witch Hunters in the context of the Imperium and Humanity as a whole.

Yet this is backed up by Faith and Fire which is the latest novel concerning the Sisters of Battle. Have you read it? I have and it's quite enlightening on the thought processes of a Sister, especially an elite celestian sister superior.

Gen.Steiner
04-09-2006, 18:51
In short you'll ignore an official source even when it disagrees with you. Fluff is fluff regardless of the source. Also the codexes are the bible for the races they detail. Afterall the Codexes came before the novels.

Hehe.

When reading background, it's important to remember whose Point of View it is. The Imperial Propaganda Officio is unlikely to say of the SoBs:

"Yeh, well, er, they're chicks in armour, right, and, er... yeh, they've got this problem, loads of them go in for kinky sex in the nunneries, and, um... we think they might be predisposed to worshipping dark powers, er..."

Are they now? No, of course not!

Also, the bible is a collection of allegories, stories, lies, half-truths, metaphors, and all wrapped up in faith (i.e. belief without proof) - dating from about 2-3,000 years ago. So that doesn't really bode well for the Codexes, does it? :)


[Faith and Fire is] ... enlightening on the thought processes of a Sister, especially an elite celestian sister superior.

The operative word there is 'a'. One Sister is not every Sister, nor even the most Faithful. Even amongst the cloisters of the Ecclesiarchy lurks heresy!


If they fell they lose their faith

No, they lose their faith in the God-Emperor. That doesn't exclude them from putting that same faith in something else.

Inq. Veltane
04-09-2006, 19:03
No, they lose their faith in the God-Emperor. That doesn't exclude them from putting that same faith in something else.

In fact human nature is such that the most common reaction to a loss of faith is to put that faith in something else. It is incredibly uncomfortable to go from strong faith to no faith, normally a new faith (often even more strongly held than the old one) will replace the old one. Its not always pretty but thats what the research suggests happens.

Gen.Steiner
04-09-2006, 19:08
Exactly! It's why the converts to religions and ideologies are often the most fanatical. Think about it:

"AIIEEE! MY ENTIRE LIFE WAS A LIE!"

That's the kind of revelation we've got here. Going from total, unflinching, unswerving faith in the God-Emperor to nothing is too far - to take that faith and put it into a new god (or new gods) is much more likely...

Simsandwich
04-09-2006, 19:13
Guys, stop being so anal about it.
Steiner, I agree with you, you are campaigning for the guys free expression, which I know you feel strongly about, and If he wants to, let him do it, hes showing ingenuity, creativity, and a breakaway from the norm. If anything you should be praising him, not feeding him a million and one reasons why he is wrong.

Gen.Steiner
04-09-2006, 19:22
Guys, stop being so anal about it.
Steiner, I agree with you, you are campaigning for the guys free expression, which I know you feel strongly about, and If he wants to, let him do it, hes showing ingenuity, creativity, and a breakaway from the norm. If anything you should be praising him, not feeding him a million and one reasons why he is wrong.

Yes! Exactly! Simsandwich speaks the truth! Listen to him!

And if it still bothers you, don't worry, the likelihood is you'll never ever play against his army anyway.

Eblis_Dead_Forever
04-09-2006, 19:49
I think that everything has been said that can be said. People have voiced their opinions and made their positions clear and I doubt that anything will change how they feel. I started this topic to get feedback on an army concept, I knew that I would get negative responces to it the second I posted it. I know it bothers people that I want to do this, for all different reasons, yes they may never play the army but they will still have to hear about it from time and even see pictures of it. Perhaps people will feel differently about when they see the fruits of my labour or want to burn me like the heretic that I am. :D

I could say that I don't care about what others think but that would be idiotic and cowardly of me, as if I did I wouldn't have drawen notice to my plans. Just like I have the freedom to do this army others should be free to voice what they think about it. They can't force me not to do it and I can't force them to like it either.

If people want to continue this debate go ahead some interesting points have been made and I'm sure will continue to be made. But please if you have anything to say about my army idea message me instead of posting it here.

This is an on going project so there will be relatively frequent posts concerning it as it evolves. I hope everyone will at the least find it interesting. :D

Thank you Eblis

Azrael Rose Sanglante
04-09-2006, 20:12
Personally, i think it will be possible.
Sure, SOB are very fervents girls and her faith cannot be corrupted with theological arguments... But there are several ways to corrupt somebody...
Recently, i've created a slaanesh chaos army with SOBs models, in order to do this i studied a background as justification.
I've saw a film about some way to corrupt the mind and a way was the awakening of a need in the victim mind, something wich can act like a drug, something for what the victim can do anything and then i've an idea: SOBs are young girls, not women, their faith is too strong and like maiden there must be virgin! Then, it will be possible to Slaanesh to initiate these girls with some adult pleasures... It need some time but some girls now women will be corrupted, after all Slaanesh is the Master of Pleasures...

For my army, it was an adepta sororita mission lead by canoness and captured after a long fight... Slaanesh want them as captive to initiate them... After long years of "education", Slaanesh possess now his Devoted Sisters of Chaos...

Nobody is untouchable!

Outlaw289
04-09-2006, 20:21
Guys, stop being so anal about it.
Steiner, I agree with you, you are campaigning for the guys free expression, which I know you feel strongly about, and If he wants to, let him do it, hes showing ingenuity, creativity, and a breakaway from the norm. If anything you should be praising him, not feeding him a million and one reasons why he is wrong.

I direct you to cailus' post about the Imperial-Tyranid-Chaos alliance

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=919283&postcount=67


*snip*

Hey Slaaneshi sisters how imaginative and not blatantly nerdy

Simsandwich
04-09-2006, 20:23
Their are exceptions.
If it is a complete :wtf: ONO situation, I wouldn't allow it, Ie: Tyranids with Necron allis led by a GK Grandmaster.

Gen.Steiner
04-09-2006, 20:27
I direct you to cailus' post about the Imperial-Tyranid-Chaos alliance

Read it, disagree. Why not? It doesn't infringe on my personal take on the 40Kiverse, and as it happens in the future of that universe, why not...?

Simsandwich
04-09-2006, 20:29
Read it, disagree. Why not? It doesn't infringe on my personal take on the 40Kiverse, and as it happens in the future of that universe, why not...?

And it would be hilarious to play against.
"Ok, so my Warriors are going to fly with these Raptors, my Hive Tyrant will join this squad of Scouts, This Librarian will join the Termagaunts."

And the Slaaneshi SoBs just sound pervy, wrong and sick.
Nerdy as hell also.

Eblis_Dead_Forever
04-09-2006, 20:40
I don't understand why even people think of slaanesh they think of sex and boobies. He/She/It is the lord of excess, in physical emotional and mental terms, this can apply to anything food, alcohol, drugs, music, art, literature. People that follow him seek perfection they're not all nemphomanicas take Lucius he strives to perfect his fighting ability. The Emperors Children are about trying to be perfect thats why they fell.
Also as a dark god Slaanesh is about depravity, things that are taboo. Not an excuse to carry pervy fantasy into the game of 40k espically ones that are demeaning to the opposite sex.

Slaanesh is not the Prince of Porn...

Xander-K
04-09-2006, 20:48
Yes, and the Primarchs are demi-gods. Demi-Gods. Half-Gods. Not saints. Not miracle workers. Nearly gods in their own right! And, arguably, Angron et al are even more so now that they're Daemon Princes...

they aren't anything gods, they are just extra powerful marines, they are about as powerful as very high ranking chaos lords, nothing godly about them, they are just the most trusted of the emperor and thus the strongest/most skilled.

Gen.Steiner
04-09-2006, 20:50
they aren't anything gods, they are just extra powerful marines, they are about as powerful as very high ranking chaos lords, nothing godly about them, they are just the most trusted of the emperor and thus the strongest/most skilled.

Um.

Yes. That's right. Sanguinius, who has wings, Russ, who survives a power fist to the face... normal, everyday Space Marines there!

Xander-K
04-09-2006, 20:54
Um.

Yes. That's right. Sanguinius, who has wings, Russ, who survives a power fist to the face... normal, everyday Space Marines there!
I didn't say they were normal, I said they were exceptional, but I don't see how they are divine, just as the emperor is not a god but "gifted" with some psyker abilities/powers. (p.s. my termies can survive power fists to face lol)

anyway back to sisters idea, I think its overdone, so many chaos sisters (usually slaanesh ones) and it is hard to think of a good narrative for them, and it as people have said sounds extremely unlikely in fluff terms this would happen to a whole order.

what kind of ideas do you have for the army at the moment, perhaps we could help you with them, rather than argue about whether it will happen or not in the fluff.

Eblis_Dead_Forever
04-09-2006, 21:32
Yes it has been established that there isn't alot to support the idea in terms of offical fluff and that logically it is a pretty difficult thing to do. I don't mind this as it means that I have to be more creative to make this work, but I enjoy a challenge.

I haven't anything firm yet that I feel is right to share. There are two reasons for this the first is the difficulty involved in doing this properly. Second I think it would be stupid to present a mediocre or undeveloped idea for debate and feedback as this would cause me no end of trouble explaining why I thought this would work (not to mention a waste of time for everybody involved). As well as possibility of me rejecting an idea that has alot of potential.

Outlaw289
04-09-2006, 21:47
Russ, who survives a power fist to the face... normal, everyday Space Marines there!

Maybe the batteries ran out :angel:

Eblis_Dead_Forever
04-09-2006, 21:51
And thats why you should use duracell ultra. :D

Outlaw289
04-09-2006, 21:57
Read it, disagree. Why not? It doesn't infringe on my personal take on the 40Kiverse, and as it happens in the future of that universe, why not...?

Ugggh.


This is going the same way as console-vs-PC debates, saying "Im right your wrong" "Nuh-uh", "Uh-huh".


Fluffwise there is an extremely, overwhelmingly small chance of their being Chaos sisters. Cailus' demonstrated the extent of "personalizing" a universe with many defined tenents in the background.

I'm not saying "IF HE MAKES CHAOS SISTERS I WILL TELL GAMES WORKSHOP AND CREATE A HIT-SQUAD TO KILL HIM FOR THIS HERESY", I just think its fluff-o-logically nearly impossible

insectum7
04-09-2006, 22:03
When referencing the fluff, one shuold remember the differences in interpretation that arise out two codexes telling the same story. It doesn't happen much, but the differences are a pretty clear indication that the fluff shouldn't be taken too heavily.

The best example I can think of is the besieging of an Iron Warriors held planet just after the Horus Heresy, by the Imperial Fists. One gets two very different stories, in the Iron Warriors fluff, the battle is portrayed as a tremendous slaughter of the Imperial Fists, one of the worst defeats for the Space Marines in the entirety of the official fluff collection.

But if you read the story from the Imperial Fists perspective, that one speaks about the remakable heroism of those involved, and how the Imperial Fists were able to stand strong untill the Ultramarines arrived and finally drive the Chaos Forces from the planet.

A similar situation occurs when comparing th DA fluff to the Space wolves fluff regarding the start of their chapter rivalry, the codecies alter the storytelling and interpretation of events.

The Ultramarine stories tell of the Battle for Macragge and how they heroically defended their realm. But the story is never heard from the Tyranid perspective, which would make it sound pretty bad for the Imperium, billions butchered, whole planets devoured, and the entire first company of the Ultramarines wiped out.

The fluff itself is rank with flourishes and interpretation, and shouldn't be taken literaly.

Eblis_Dead_Forever
04-09-2006, 22:13
If such a thing as fallen sisters really existed do you think that the inquistion would let that get out. We are privy to stuff that only the most high ranking memebers of the imperium would know. Possibly things that they don't. It would be fair to say that the same applies for us there are things we don't know if the 40k universe and will never know.

Gen.Steiner
04-09-2006, 22:18
...I just think its fluff-o-logically nearly impossible

Operative word emphasized. :p

Tymell
04-09-2006, 22:51
Incidentally, just turn your eye to the Fantasy realm for a moment. Look at how many people like Chaos Dwarves and are clamouring for their return. Now imagine Chaos Dwarves had never been made, and were only now being suggested by GW. I'm guessing some people here would be shouting "But Dwarves would never turn to Chaos!" in the same way they are about Sisters. It illustrates that anything can happen, and that ultimately the game is just a bit of fun. ;)

The_Patriot
04-09-2006, 22:57
Hehe.

When reading background, it's important to remember whose Point of View it is. The Imperial Propaganda Officio is unlikely to say of the SoBs:

"Yeh, well, er, they're chicks in armour, right, and, er... yeh, they've got this problem, loads of them go in for kinky sex in the nunneries, and, um... we think they might be predisposed to worshipping dark powers, er..."

Are they now? No, of course not!

Also, the bible is a collection of allegories, stories, lies, half-truths, metaphors, and all wrapped up in faith (i.e. belief without proof) - dating from about 2-3,000 years ago. So that doesn't really bode well for the Codexes, does it? :)



The operative word there is 'a'. One Sister is not every Sister, nor even the most Faithful. Even amongst the cloisters of the Ecclesiarchy lurks heresy!



No, they lose their faith in the God-Emperor. That doesn't exclude them from putting that same faith in something else.

Actually they featured quite a lot of Sisters in the book and showed their thought processes. I take it you haven't read it and will refuse to read it.

Sorry back up your statement with fluff that they put their faith into something else. In the examples from Daemonifuge and Miriael Sabathiel they didn't put their faith in the chaos gods.

insectum7
04-09-2006, 23:03
Operative word emphasized. :p

Right on. I wasn't really speaking to anyone in particular, just sort of a general 'something to think about' post to add some perspective.


Incidentally, just turn your eye to the Fantasy realm for a moment. Look at how many people like Chaos Dwarves and are clamouring for their return. Now imagine Chaos Dwarves had never been made, and were only now being suggested by GW. I'm guessing some people here would be shouting "But Dwarves would never turn to Chaos!" in the same way they are about Sisters. It illustrates that anything can happen, and that ultimately the game is just a bit of fun. ;)


Heh, anyone remember the general uproar when the Necron Codex came out? Lots of people hated, hated, hated it, especially people who were real big on the Eldar fluff, because the Necrons introduced a whole new take on the history of the galaxy that made the Eldar appear less important.

I hated the Necron codex until I saw 'Terminator 3', and then I was sold. An army of machines that threaten all life as we know it, duh!, seminal SF theme since the dawn of science fiction practically.

Gen.Steiner
04-09-2006, 23:04
Actually they featured quite a lot of Sisters in the book and showed their thought processes. I take it you haven't read it and will refuse to read it.

No, I've not read it (I will though). However, my point is that no book or short story can provide you with a look into every SoB's mind. It can generalise, but it doesn't rule out the possibility, as you seem to think it does.


Sorry back up your statement with fluff that they put their faith into something else. In the examples from Daemonifuge and Miriael Sabathiel they didn't put their faith in the chaos gods.

What, like in Daemonifuge, where the Sister whose heart is torn out by Stern is wearing a Slaanesh pendant? Much as one would wear a crucifix, or for a more 40K approach, an Aquila... :rolleyes:

The_Patriot
04-09-2006, 23:11
No, I've not read it (I will though). However, my point is that no book or short story can provide you with a look into every SoB's mind. It can generalise, but it doesn't rule out the possibility, as you seem to think it does.

What, like in Daemonifuge, where the Sister whose heart is torn out by Stern is wearing a Slaanesh pendant? Much as one would wear a crucifix, or for a more 40K approach, an Aquila... :rolleyes:

Well then I suggest you read it because it does an excellent job of showing the training, rituals, etc... that a Sister learns while growing up. These things are ingrained into their mind and soul to keep them pure. Those that are not pure cannot serve in the Orders of the Sisters. Hence the reason why I generalize that it does rule out the personality.

The pendant was one from the Navis Noblite. It still doesn't provide proof that she had faith in Slaneesh to generate faith points for acts of faith. Come on surely you can find it in official fluff to back up your position. However, in Daemonifuge she does bear the Mark of Slaneesh which under the Codex: Chaos Space Marines she gained the Warp Scream ability.

Ouroboros
04-09-2006, 23:39
Why not just have them be female warriors of chaos that just happen to wear (or even have stolen) similar types of armour. It dodges the whole Chaos sisters idea from a background perspective but still lets you use the models, all be it altered, which I assume you intended to do anyway.

Also "The Patriot" what is your avatar from.

Outlaw289
04-09-2006, 23:59
Why not just have them be female warriors of chaos that just happen to wear (or even have stolen) similar types of armour. It dodges the whole Chaos sisters idea from a background perspective but still lets you use the models, all be it altered, which I assume you intended to do anyway.

Also "The Patriot" what is your avatar from.

Thats a good idea.

I think his avatar is from 99 Nights but I'm not sure

Kriegsherr
05-09-2006, 00:17
Sorry back up your statement with fluff that they put their faith into something else. In the examples from Daemonifuge and Miriael Sabathiel they didn't put their faith in the chaos gods.

How about demonifuge? In that comic there are a lot of slanneshi sisters. You can't ignore that just because the story was a little bit strange (Okay, I only read it more than once because of the good drawings. And the ugly slanneshi sisters. With CSM guns :)). And stranger things have happened in the 40k universe.

Always remember: The universe is big, the Imperator is far away, and anything can happen. Anything! ;)



Thats a good idea.

I think his avatar is from 99 Nights but I'm not sure

Isn't it from the long awaited and never finished Witchhunters mod for DOW?
Man, they should really get this mod running. It would get me back to playing DOW...

Kriegsherr
05-09-2006, 00:25
And the Slaaneshi SoBs just sound pervy, wrong and sick.
Nerdy as hell also.

So now Space Marines aren't the nerdiest army ever? Come to think of it, the SOB themselves came straight out of a sick nerds most wet dream.

Sado-Masochistic nuns in corsett-armour. Not to start on the whole repentia matter again.

But I love them even more because they are so nerdy and sick. And everything pervy slanneshy too.

Just accept it.... every nerd gets high on different things... some want chicks with big boobs whipping them half to death.... some want space marines and supermen in tights..... Or genderless, green loverboyz....

Kegluneq
05-09-2006, 00:36
So now Space Marines aren't the nerdiest army ever? Come to think of it, the SOB themselves came straight out of a sick nerds most wet dream.
Eh. To be fair, there's nothing especially wet dreamy about the Sisters of Battle as they are - simply portraying boobs is not inherently sexist, and they're strong characters in their own right. The Repentia lot are pretty naff, granted, but you're laying it on a bit thick if you think only male nerds think girls look good in corsets; astonishingly, lots of girls do too. Sigh.


Just accept it.... every nerd gets high on different things... some want chicks with big boobs whipping them half to death.... some want space marines and supermen in tights..... Or genderless, green loverboyz....
Someone is getting a little too keen on Slaanesh ideology :p

The_Patriot
05-09-2006, 00:37
Why not just have them be female warriors of chaos that just happen to wear (or even have stolen) similar types of armour. It dodges the whole Chaos sisters idea from a background perspective but still lets you use the models, all be it altered, which I assume you intended to do anyway.

Also "The Patriot" what is your avatar from.

I agree with what you said concerning the sisters.

It's from an Adepta Sororitas mod for Dawn of War and it's the cannoness. Here's what the picture looks like.

The_Patriot
05-09-2006, 00:41
How about demonifuge? In that comic there are a lot of slanneshi sisters. You can't ignore that just because the story was a little bit strange (Okay, I only read it more than once because of the good drawings. And the ugly slanneshi sisters. With CSM guns :)). And stranger things have happened in the 40k universe.

Always remember: The universe is big, the Imperator is far away, and anything can happen. Anything! ;)




Isn't it from the long awaited and never finished Witchhunters mod for DOW?
Man, they should really get this mod running. It would get me back to playing DOW...

From Daemonifuge there is no indication that Chaos Sisters had faith or used acts of faith. They did indicate that they had chaos gifts. When they showed the good Sisters you could easily see them use acts of faith like Light of the Emperor.

From the fluff surrounding Miriael Sabathiel she never manifested faith nor acts of faith when she fought her cannoness. She used booby traps and other underhanded tricks to kill them, but no sign of any faith nor usage of acts of faith.

SepulchreKnight
05-09-2006, 00:47
Cool idea.

You could just use lost and damed rules or choose appropriate doctrines for an imperial guard list and just call them traitor. Perhaps just use black legion or devoted chaos marine army list rules with SOB models.

Fluff can be as official as you would like it. If its not all important to you, convert and play what you enjoy and tell anyone who challanges you to just relax. I think the conversions could be great.

Tymell
05-09-2006, 06:13
Sado-Masochistic nuns in corsett-armour.

Sorry to go completely off-topic, but read "nuns" as "vampire-psycho-bitch" and that is so my girlfriend it's freaky :p


Or genderless, green loverboyz

Okay, now you've made me start thinking of the possibility of Ork porn...

"Oi've come ter fix yer fridge..."

Kriegsherr
05-09-2006, 10:44
From Daemonifuge there is no indication that Chaos Sisters had faith or used acts of faith. They did indicate that they had chaos gifts. When they showed the good Sisters you could easily see them use acts of faith like Light of the Emperor.


Okay, now, there you are completly right. The only wonder the chaos sisters used had the same caliber as chaos bolters and reaper cannons. I never said something different. But not to "have acts of faith" doesn't hinder a SOB to go traitor.

I for my part have to agree: If you wanna play chaos sisters, and avoid the "kount-as-krazyness", drop the acts of faiths.... OR, what I like more, change them to something more chaotic. Because, as I said, zealots converted are still zealots :)




From the fluff surrounding Miriael Sabathiel she never manifested faith nor acts of faith when she fought her cannoness. She used booby traps and other underhanded tricks to kill them, but no sign of any faith nor usage of acts of faith.

O_o yeeaaah okay..... so now its "they don't have acts of faith" time .... sorry ;)
You talked about that there are no indication of chaos sisters in GW Literature... does that mean you admit SOBs "seem to be able" to convert to chaos?
I never ever said that any element in a SOB chapter has to convert.... but if the canoness is gone, another sister will take her place sooner or later. The same can be said about celestia or any other element of the WH dex....



Eh. To be fair, there's nothing especially wet dreamy about the Sisters of Battle as they are - simply portraying boobs is not inherently sexist, and they're strong characters in their own right. The Repentia lot are pretty naff, granted, but you're laying it on a bit thick if you think only male nerds think girls look good in corsets; astonishingly, lots of girls do too. Sigh.


Man, I talked about the "whipping" and "sado-masochistic" part when I made my "nerdy" point.... but GW didn't had to make their armour a mixture of a Corsett and a nuns robe.... if they didn't counted on the "nerd" factor to make them more successfull.

Its not the boobs, its the way the boobs are hidden from view.

I for my part think the SOB are way more nerdy than the 'nettes. They could have also go "SM-Hell" on them, but didn't do it. Damn hot demon-chicks nonetheless

And I know... nerds also like them in school uniforms... or any kind of uniform for that matter... and with weapons in the hands....





Someone is getting a little too keen on Slaanesh ideology :p

Well, It gets me on... so what? ;)

Eblis_Dead_Forever
05-09-2006, 10:50
I would suggest it is possible in the short term that it is possible for sisters to fall and still be able to produce acts of faith. If they are being decieved into serving chaos but believe they are still doing the work of the Emperor. They could still use faith points because although they may believe he is a God he is not we know that he is not he is merely a very powerful psycher. Thus it is through the faith they have in the Emperor that they are able to use acts of faith not by the will of the Emperor himself.
If they were to start worshipping the dark gods instead then it would become a different matter entirely. As the dark gods are different from the Emperor himself in that they are more interactive with their followers and their influence is more tangiable than the Emperors. Although they themselves are more abstract. Due to this people worship them and even follow them but can't logically have faith in them because faith is believing in something that you little or no evidance that it exists. It is also seperate from reason and logic. In this case faith would be expressed as a form of loyalty. Sisters being zealots would be loyal to the point of death and exist solely to do the bidding of their Dark Masters. The dark gods grant favours or gifts for those that impress them. Thus faith points could become favour points granted to them instead. Same system different spin.

Now we come to the matter of if they can turn or not. I think they can be as long as they are human they have free will and emotions, yes they are going to repressed and dulled through they're training. But as long as they are human they will retain these traits through conpartmentalising them. You get trained to do it the army although it is passive rather than active learning.
Thus you can be decieved you can feel fear, hatred, angry, loss, joy, sorrow etc. They give them up they don't loss them maybe for some regaining their lost humanity is more important than their faith. It is well known that if you want people to do anything you prey on their emotions rather than appealing to them through arguement.

Besides in faith and fire Iona says "One single slip and even the most devout will fall, and open the way to the warp!" This is another point (I shall make it brief) that it is because the temptation is so great that they need to be so strong. I'd say that alot of what they do is out of fear to a degree.

Sorry that this is so long winded. I kept it as short as I could. While mainting the essence of what I'm trying to get at.

Eblis

Eblis_Dead_Forever
05-09-2006, 10:59
Everybody has their fantasy. Some of which you have already described. Does that make anyone that has a sexual fantasy or watchs porn a nerd or nerdy. It's part of a healthy mind set really. Although when you get your kicks out metal minatures thats a different story altogether.:p

The_Patriot
05-09-2006, 11:31
Okay, now, there you are completly right. The only wonder the chaos sisters used had the same caliber as chaos bolters and reaper cannons. I never said something different. But not to "have acts of faith" doesn't hinder a SOB to go traitor.

I for my part have to agree: If you wanna play chaos sisters, and avoid the "kount-as-krazyness", drop the acts of faiths.... OR, what I like more, change them to something more chaotic. Because, as I said, zealots converted are still zealots :)




O_o yeeaaah okay..... so now its "they don't have acts of faith" time .... sorry ;)
You talked about that there are no indication of chaos sisters in GW Literature... does that mean you admit SOBs "seem to be able" to convert to chaos?
I never ever said that any element in a SOB chapter has to convert.... but if the canoness is gone, another sister will take her place sooner or later. The same can be said about celestia or any other element of the WH dex....




Man, I talked about the "whipping" and "sado-masochistic" part when I made my "nerdy" point.... but GW didn't had to make their armour a mixture of a Corsett and a nuns robe.... if they didn't counted on the "nerd" factor to make them more successfull.

Its not the boobs, its the way the boobs are hidden from view.

I for my part think the SOB are way more nerdy than the 'nettes. They could have also go "SM-Hell" on them, but didn't do it. Damn hot demon-chicks nonetheless

And I know... nerds also like them in school uniforms... or any kind of uniform for that matter... and with weapons in the hands....





Well, It gets me on... so what? ;)

1. Well we're in agreement finally on something. :p

2. I never said that they couldn't turn. I did say that faith generating faithful units/characters are unable to turn. Upon turning they lose the ability to use acts of faith, treat force weapons as power weapons with no instakill, ignore major psyker powers on 5+, and immune to all minor psyker powers.

The_Patriot
05-09-2006, 11:45
I would suggest it is possible in the short term that it is possible for sisters to fall and still be able to produce acts of faith. If they are being decieved into serving chaos but believe they are still doing the work of the Emperor. They could still use faith points because although they may believe he is a God he is not we know that he is not he is merely a very powerful psycher. Thus it is through the faith they have in the Emperor that they are able to use acts of faith not by the will of the Emperor himself.

If they were to start worshipping the dark gods instead then it would become a different matter entirely. As the dark gods are different from the Emperor himself in that they are more interactive with their followers and their influence is more tangiable than the Emperors. Although they themselves are more abstract. Due to this people worship them and even follow them but can't logically have faith in them because faith is believing in something that you little or no evidance that it exists. It is also seperate from reason and logic. In this case faith would be expressed as a form of loyalty. Sisters being zealots would be loyal to the point of death and exist solely to do the bidding of their Dark Masters. The dark gods grant favours or gifts for those that impress them. Thus faith points could become favour points granted to them instead. Same system different spin.

Now we come to the matter of if they can turn or not. I think they can be as long as they are human they have free will and emotions, yes they are going to repressed and dulled through they're training. But as long as they are human they will retain these traits through conpartmentalising them. You get trained to do it the army although it is passive rather than active learning.
Thus you can be decieved you can feel fear, hatred, angry, loss, joy, sorrow etc. They give them up they don't loss them maybe for some regaining their lost humanity is more important than their faith. It is well known that if you want people to do anything you prey on their emotions rather than appealing to them through arguement.

Besides in faith and fire Iona says "One single slip and even the most devout will fall, and open the way to the warp!" This is another point (I shall make it brief) that it is because the temptation is so great that they need to be so strong. I'd say that alot of what they do is out of fear to a degree.

Sorry that this is so long winded. I kept it as short as I could. While mainting the essence of what I'm trying to get at.

Eblis

Deception is not falling/corruption and Alicia Dominican as well as the founding Sisters of Battle are proof of that. Also they founding Sisters spent time with the Emperor before they made the decision to kill Vandire. One could gather that from such exposure and communing with the Emperor they were granted powers by the God-Emperor. Also keep in mind that the ascension to godhood by the Emperor didn't occur until after he was struck down and put into the golden throne ala like the crucifiction and resurrection of Jesus. Jesus was a just a man before he was crucified as was the Emperor. Post crucifiction he ascended to godhood.

I would say no to the favor points mainly due to the rules concerning Chaos and the fluff about Chaos that there is nothing to back that up. A fallen sister does not get favor points, but instead get Chaos gifts as described in Codex Chaos Space Marines.

After reading the Codex Sisters of Battle Second Edition, it becomes abundantly clear on numerous things concerning the Sisters. The major one is that their lives are spent sheltered in the convent away from others. Only the cannoness and the veteran sister superiors have any outside contact. Their days are spent in contemplation on the words, books, etc... of the Church. They are completely devout to the Emperor and do not waver from the path as their entire existance is centered around being pure. They are puritans for all intents and purposes. If they are going to fall they will usually die at their own hands. Sisters report directly to the Ecclesiarch and are outside of the heirarchy for the Church. They have autonomous control over their actions and can purge the Church if corruption is found without getting permission from anyone in the Church.

Rayek-san
05-09-2006, 12:33
My 2 cents:

if your Idea is using a "in search of redemption" army you should use the WH rule, but with a sister-only list.

If you wanna go trough the pure chaotic road I believe you should use the CSM one:
-every weapon of the WH codex is present in the CSM one,
-u have rules more "fluffier" for demonic gifts
-u can have demons
-u open up to a whole universe of conversion (SISTERS ON BYKE above all, a penitent engine pumped up to a profanator etc.)

Eblis_Dead_Forever
05-09-2006, 12:49
The Patriot you've given me numerous reason why I can't do this, most of them fluff based. I understand that you have a better grasp of the fluff for sisters of battle than I have. But at the same time you have yet to give me a valid answer as far as I can see that address the human element in this equation. Humans are not born blank slates they are born with a certain degree of intiat knowledge, no amount of isolation is goign to change that you can repress desires emotions you can't get rid of them. What ever else GW are capable they can't alter what it means to be human, if they do then the empathy and connection is lost.

As it says in the chaos codex: This is the tragedy and sadest irony of Mankind that in a universe poised to destroy him at every tur, in a world where is friend is his only brother: Mankind is as likely to turn his weapons upon his fellow man as upon his enemy.

We know from the Daemonifuge graphic novel that this can happen. I think we can agree on that. If you read the Horus Hersey novels you'll find that there is the exact same argument in regards to the marines if it is possible for them to turn on each other. Of course they said it wasn't possible. People have done this before they have put no effort into making this plausible to making it realistic. They haven't bothered to think out the implications. Yet they did it, none the less, probably claiming that it's their army they can do what they want with it. I've always enjoyed making the background to my army as much I've enjoyed making the army itself. I find it more fun if there is a context in what I'm doing, there is a story behind it.

I want to play a sisters of battle army but I want there to be something unique about them, in looks and background. I want there to be a trajedy about them, there is something cathartic about it. For them to have a human element about them. I want them to fall yes but I also want there to be a chance of redemption. I could do this with another army yes I accept I could use the chaos rules and just use sisters of battle models, I might do this later down the line who knows. But I have played with chaos before I want to play with a different army. I like the Sisters of Battle thats why I've choosen them they have a unique playing style part of that is the acts of faith. I asked if this could be done in regards to fluff and I got my answer. Now I ask for your advice on ways that I could execute this idea so although people might not agree with the concept behind it at least I still have a quick ass looking army. :D

Kriegsherr
05-09-2006, 13:06
To support Eblis_Dead_Forever:

Isn't the whole story of the imperium showing that the biggest threat to mankind is not alien nor demon... but their own brothers led astray by their own emotions, be it pride or hate or greed?

Isn't every story that wants to be at least a little bit interesting in dire need of a little bit of traitorship? a little bit heresy? A little bit tragedy?

Where is the tragedy in humans without doubts? Without emotions? Without an inner fight fought every single day?
Its true the whole nature of turning humans into gibbering zealots is to wash away doubts. But the whole nature of war, of live itself will bring doubt back to their hearts.
Because however strong an ideology is, if you see you're religious leaders and heros spit on it every day and interpret it very open (and I don't think the Imperial faith says something about "Thou shallst kill innocent fugitives... Because your superior tell you they are tainted!".... its more like "Thou shallst kill the tainted!"), There are some that might get doubts in their hearts.

And thats were the infernal four come into play. Doubts are the seed for heresy

The_Patriot
05-09-2006, 13:50
The Patriot you've given me numerous reason why I can't do this, most of them fluff based. I understand that you have a better grasp of the fluff for sisters of battle than I have. But at the same time you have yet to give me a valid answer as far as I can see that address the human element in this equation. Humans are not born blank slates they are born with a certain degree of intiat knowledge, no amount of isolation is goign to change that you can repress desires emotions you can't get rid of them. What ever else GW are capable they can't alter what it means to be human, if they do then the empathy and connection is lost.

As it says in the chaos codex: This is the tragedy and sadest irony of Mankind that in a universe poised to destroy him at every tur, in a world where is friend is his only brother: Mankind is as likely to turn his weapons upon his fellow man as upon his enemy.

We know from the Daemonifuge graphic novel that this can happen. I think we can agree on that. If you read the Horus Hersey novels you'll find that there is the exact same argument in regards to the marines if it is possible for them to turn on each other. Of course they said it wasn't possible. People have done this before they have put no effort into making this plausible to making it realistic. They haven't bothered to think out the implications. Yet they did it, none the less, probably claiming that it's their army they can do what they want with it. I've always enjoyed making the background to my army as much I've enjoyed making the army itself. I find it more fun if there is a context in what I'm doing, there is a story behind it.

I want to play a sisters of battle army but I want there to be something unique about them, in looks and background. I want there to be a trajedy about them, there is something cathartic about it. For them to have a human element about them. I want them to fall yes but I also want there to be a chance of redemption. I could do this with another army yes I accept I could use the chaos rules and just use sisters of battle models, I might do this later down the line who knows. But I have played with chaos before I want to play with a different army. I like the Sisters of Battle thats why I've choosen them they have a unique playing style part of that is the acts of faith. I asked if this could be done in regards to fluff and I got my answer. Now I ask for your advice on ways that I could execute this idea so although people might not agree with the concept behind it at least I still have a quick ass looking army. :D

Well my advice is to drop the chaos idea completely. You could play a Sisters army that has a unique back story while retaining the stuff that makes a Sister a Sister like the acts of faith. The order I did was my own called the Holy Order of the Emperor's Blessed Angels. Their backstory is filled with tragedy, but it's also filled with hope. The key thing about what makes Sisters unique in 40k is that even when the going gets tough they may fail, but in the end there is always hope for redemption and success. By going with the Chaos Sisters you'll have lots of tragedy but no hope and definately no redemption as stated in the fluff. You'd also lose the uniqueness of the acts of faith.

No other army has these elements in this combination with faith. Sure the Eldar are tragic, but they have hope through the use of the infinity circuit as well as the spirit stones. Ultimately though they are doomed and nothing they can do to stop it. The Dark Eldar recognize this and proceed to do what Eldar do while aknowledging the fact that ultimately they're doomed so they don't fight it. Space Marines are boring, including Chaos Space Marines. Yet the the thing they all lack is the faith and the acts of faith the Sisters have combined with the hope of redemption of mankind to fulfill the edicts of the Emperor long since silent. They stand as reminders of the best of humanity and provide illumination along the path in a universe filled with darkness.

Instead of looking to Chaos to making your army unique look to the people that will fill your order and create an interesting backstory for them. It's tragic when your characters are filled with fears and doubts with one short step away from eternal damnation. Their struggle is mainly an internal one in trying to overcome what most of humanity fails to overcome which is compassion and doing things for the sake of others. Granted that 40k's vision of compassion isn't one in the current sense of what compassion is, but more of a 18th century view of compassion. It's tragic when one must kill someone in order to redeem their soul. The Sisters are quite familiar with tragedy as it shapes their very lives and impacts them directly. The most tragic thing about them is that they can never have what others have which is a family, children, ownership of property, etc... These things are barred to them as they can lead to corruption and damnation. Thinking that Chaos is tragedy is overstated, overdone, and frankly not even real tragedy. Tragedy is wholly internal in how it affects the person emotionally and spiritually. A good example of tragedy is the story of Iona in Faith and Fire. Only by sacrificing herself to save her Sisters did she gain the thing she sought most.... redemption. It was a tragic incident for the Cannoness and the Sisters to watch because they knew her for most of her life.

The_Patriot
05-09-2006, 13:53
To support Eblis_Dead_Forever:

Isn't the whole story of the imperium showing that the biggest threat to mankind is not alien nor demon... but their own brothers led astray by their own emotions, be it pride or hate or greed?

Isn't every story that wants to be at least a little bit interesting in dire need of a little bit of traitorship? a little bit heresy? A little bit tragedy?

Where is the tragedy in humans without doubts? Without emotions? Without an inner fight fought every single day?
Its true the whole nature of turning humans into gibbering zealots is to wash away doubts. But the whole nature of war, of live itself will bring doubt back to their hearts.
Because however strong an ideology is, if you see you're religious leaders and heros spit on it every day and interpret it very open (and I don't think the Imperial faith says something about "Thou shallst kill innocent fugitives... Because your superior tell you they are tainted!".... its more like "Thou shallst kill the tainted!"), There are some that might get doubts in their hearts.

And thats were the infernal four come into play. Doubts are the seed for heresy

See my reply to Eblis. ;)

Kriegsherr
05-09-2006, 14:45
Okay, your right in the point that to make an army unique you don't need to put the small word "chaos" in front of it.

If thats what irritates you at the idea, I can fully understand it. I also hate the "lets add some more spikeys and make them even more eeeeeevil!"-chaos GW has produced in the last few years (Even though I really like the spikes'n'chains'n'gothic-armour style of the second edition CSM), and I dislike the "They are so evil they will steal your grandmothers third theeths" idea some people like to create with their chaos army.
Even though I'm a big chaos fanboy myself, all my chaos armies have some kind of tragedy in them fluffwise. Wheter they're space marines that fell from grace in the heresy and now want to atone for sins to great to be ever forgiven by hunting other CSM, or they are still loyal Imperial servants to deeply tainted by the corrupting powers to be able to show themselves to other imperial servants, maybe they are just a human civilization that have lived under chaotic influence and rule for tousands of years and are on a crusade to convert to unbelievers to the way of the big four.

I really like the Iron Warriors fluff, or the one of the Word Bearers or Tousand sons for the simple reason that they didn't just decided "from now on, we're evil! Just because I like beeing evil!"... They had different reasons and motivations, the weaknesses in their hearts and misunderstandings was what turned them away from the imperators grace.

So yeah, making chaos sisters just because you like chicks with guns but want an "eeeeevil" army.... meh. But with enough "fluffwork" and one or two characters with a really interesting story, It sounds like an army with a great, epic and tragic background.

Something like the 13th company or the skullies of the lost founding (how where they called again), sisters caught in the warp for to long and now tainted and mutated, but still untouched by chaos in their souls thanks to their undieing faith, appearing out of the warp to help imperial troops in times of needs and disappearing back into the warp before someone can ask questions, sounds like a hell of an idea!!!
Or the other way round, sisters that lost their faith, and while looking like normal sisters faithful to the god-imperator on the outside, work against other imperial agents in secrecy.... Maybe they should be denied of their faith points though.

Would make an already very characterful army even cooler...

Eblis_Dead_Forever
05-09-2006, 14:56
Tragedy is wholly internal in how it affects the person emotionally and spiritually. A good example of tragedy is the story of Iona in Faith and Fire. Only by sacrificing herself to save her Sisters did she gain the thing she sought most.... redemption. It was a tragic incident for the Cannoness and the Sisters to watch because they knew her for most of her life.

I think you misunderstand what a tragedy actually is. The example that you state is not what is meant by a tragedy. Just because the sisters watch her sacrifice herself does not make in tragic this is an act of martydom and people of faith would not view this as a tragedy. A tragedy ends in disaster or clamity usually the death of a noble character that could have been avoided. Macbeth, Coriolanus, Hamlet, A Farewell to Arms, a Streetcar Named Desire, Death of A Salesman. What in the 40k universe is more noble than a Sister of Battle, thus what is more tragic than her fall that despite her training, her life of denial, her faith, she falls to temptation. What is wrong with me wanting to tell this story in such a way that it shows the other side as I see it. What about Paradise Lost the fall of Lucifer it showed one of the key events of christian mythos in a different light, was it the way it happened perhaps, does it matter it showed it from another angle. This is something I want to do a story I want to tell and well have immense fun doing and a sense of satisfaction. I have listened to your advice I have taken it to heart and considered it. But in the end it is my choice and I'm going to make my Fallen Sisters army. I'm sorry if there are those of you out there that don't like the idea or think that it has been done to death but I have given it alot of thought and have decided that it is a project that I want to dedicate my time, effort and money towards.

Kriegsherr
05-09-2006, 15:04
I'm sorry if there are those of you out there that don't like the idea or think that it has been done to death but I have given it alot of thought and have decided that it is a project that I want to dedicate my time, effort and money towards.

Hey, I only can say: do it! I'm thrilled by the idea.

Just ensure its not the "spikey and evil" way of doing it, and I'm absolutly with you that it makes an already cool army even cooler.

As usual: consider the nay-sayers points, but don't let them influence you when you have found their points to be lacking.

Mikko
05-09-2006, 15:05
2. I never said that they couldn't turn. I did say that faith generating faithful units/characters are unable to turn. Upon turning they lose the ability to use acts of faith, treat force weapons as power weapons with no instakill, ignore major psyker powers on 5+, and immune to all minor psyker powers.
Depends on where, exactly, these abilities come from. If they're divine favors granted by the sleeping Emperor to his faithful followers, then yes, you're quite right. But if it's the sheer force of the Sisters' faith in itself that empowers them, they could be lead astray, or simply turn officially Heretic (like the devout Chaos Marines who wage war to save mankind from a false Emperor), without it affecting their powers - or fidelity - at all. :)

The thing I most like about Imperial fluff is the fundamental vagueness of it - we have all these hints and implications about and subjective viewpoints on the setting, and no way to tell who's actually right about what, in the end.

Eblis_Dead_Forever
05-09-2006, 15:07
Have I given any indication that I want to do this because I want "evil" sisters of battle or that the idea behind it was "evil is as evil does". I don't feel that I have, this is meant to be an intelligent project rather than lets just stick spikes on sister models and be done with it. Allthough I have been rather vague on the specifices, this is because I need to do more research and develope the idea.

The_Patriot
05-09-2006, 15:15
I think you misunderstand what a tragedy actually is. The example that you state is not what is meant by a tragedy. Just because the sisters watch her sacrifice herself does not make in tragic this is an act of martydom and people of faith would not view this as a tragedy. A tragedy ends in disaster or clamity usually the death of a noble character that could have been avoided. Macbeth, Coriolanus, Hamlet, A Farewell to Arms, a Streetcar Named Desire, Death of A Salesman. What in the 40k universe is more noble than a Sister of Battle, thus what is more tragic than her fall that despite her training, her life of denial, her faith, she falls to temptation. What is wrong with me wanting to tell this story in such a way that it shows the other side as I see it. What about Paradise Lost the fall of Lucifer it showed one of the key events of christian mythos in a different light, was it the way it happened perhaps, does it matter it showed it from another angle. This is something I want to do a story I want to tell and well have immense fun doing and a sense of satisfaction. I have listened to your advice I have taken it to heart and considered it. But in the end it is my choice and I'm going to make my Fallen Sisters army. I'm sorry if there are those of you out there that don't like the idea or think that it has been done to death but I have given it alot of thought and have decided that it is a project that I want to dedicate my time, effort and money towards.

Actually I nailed tragedy head on and you just agreed with me. Iona was a noble character and she sacrificed her life to save her sisters.

The_Patriot
05-09-2006, 15:17
Have I given any indication that I want to do this because I want "evil" sisters of battle or that the idea behind it was "evil is as evil does". I don't feel that I have, this is meant to be an intelligent project rather than lets just stick spikes on sister models and be done with it. Allthough I have been rather vague on the specifices, this is because I need to do more research and develope the idea.

You certainly have by your insistance of using acts of faith and faith points. Those are abilities granted by the Emperor to the Sisters and the Chaos gods cannot grant those abilities. In short, all you'll have is Sisters with spikes on them to make them 'evil'. :rolleyes:

The_Patriot
05-09-2006, 15:20
Depends on where, exactly, these abilities come from. If they're divine favors granted by the sleeping Emperor to his faithful followers, then yes, you're quite right. But if it's the sheer force of the Sisters' faith in itself that empowers them, they could be lead astray, or simply turn officially Heretic (like the devout Chaos Marines who wage war to save mankind from a false Emperor), without it affecting their powers - or fidelity - at all. :)

The thing I most like about Imperial fluff is the fundamental vagueness of it - we have all these hints and implications about and subjective viewpoints on the setting, and no way to tell who's actually right about what, in the end.

Given that Sisters are immune to force weapons and their instakill effects, immunity to minor psyker powers, and immunity on a 5+ roll for major psyker powers I'm pretty sure that those abilities comes from the Emperor. Afterall he is the most powerful psyker in the material world. Also taking into account that the description for Acts of Faith flat out state they come from the Emperor you can be pretty sure it's from the Emperor as a reward for faith.

Kriegsherr
05-09-2006, 15:25
Given that Sisters are immune to force weapons and their instakill effects, immunity to minor psyker powers, and immunity on a 5+ roll for major psyker powers I'm pretty sure that those abilities comes from the Emperor. Afterall he is the most powerful psyker in the material world. Also taking into account that the description for Acts of Faith flat out state they come from the Emperor you can be pretty sure it's from the Emperor as a reward for faith.

Yeah, you're sure... I'm not. It might be something completly different. We will never know. We don't want to know, as ignorance is bliss and knowledge dangerous. So leave such things for everyone to decide.

And that they come from the Imperator is what the sisters think. If they're right, no one knows. And only inquisitors are interested in the truth. And often die a painful death for their interest.


Its the same thing that makes the DA so interesting. Without all their secrets, they would be one of the most boring Marine chapters...



Have I given any indication that I want to do this because I want "evil" sisters of battle or that the idea behind it was "evil is as evil does". I don't feel that I have, this is meant to be an intelligent project rather than lets just stick spikes on sister models and be done with it. Allthough I have been rather vague on the specifices, this is because I need to do more research and develope the idea.

Sorry, its just, whenever I hear "chaos x" I think about ugly tentacles and big spikes... must have seen to much such armies (and made some minis myself once... when I did "chaos tau crisis"... don't ask why I did that, I don't know anymore :))

Chainsworded Codpiece
05-09-2006, 15:26
Eblis,

I support your notion that Sisters of Battle could "turn". Whether it's directly to Chaos, or a slow change to some "renegade" status without becoming overtly Chaotic...try it. It's NOT anti-fluff. The Patriot may know "more about" the fluff than you, as you assert, but I assure you, his literalist reading of the Witch Hunters Codex, and all the other fluf he's read, means he doesn't have as full a grasp of it as he thinks. He's not showing himself to be particularly insightful, and you shouldn't take his assertions as some "disproof" of your idea.

Patriot, your arguments are absurdly absolutist. And even if you were right, you are presenting your arguments in such a way as to NOT WIN ANYONE OVER. Your assumption that because Sisters have the Acts of Faith, they are immune to being co-opted by the Fellstruck Powers is just without merit. Your other arguments are reductionist, within a framework that should be viewed much more subjectively than you seem to.

It's been made clear, time and time again, that in 40K nothing is so pure in the Human realm, that it cannot be corrupted.

I have a lot of problems with the way Chaos is portrayed. Yes, the idea of "chaos SoBs" is easily exploited to stupid extremes. That doesn't make it impossible or even unheard of.
The mention of the Christian Messiah, insofar as, "He wasn't a God until he died", was, to say the least, poorly worded, ill-informed, and extremely irritating.

Mikko
05-09-2006, 15:29
Given that Sisters are immune to force weapons and their instakill effects, immunity to minor psyker powers, and immunity on a 5+ roll for major psyker powers I'm pretty sure that those abilities comes from the Emperor. Afterall he is the most powerful psyker in the material world.
Is he, really? Is he even alive in the material world, anymore? Or is he a tortured prisoner in a golden cage, or a dead corpse preserved by the daily sacrifices of thousands of innocent souls just to keep the Imperium together? Or an empty vessel a-waiting for the greatest, most terrible demonic possession in the history of Mankind? :)


Also taking into account that the description for Acts of Faith flat out state they come from the Emperor you can be pretty sure it's from the Emperor as a reward for faith.
Don't take Imperial flavor text - which is what the italized paragraphs are - as the True Writ of GW. The flavor bits in most codexes directly or indirectly contradict eachother, and I haven't seen GW come out and explicitly say what's objectively right and what's wrong...

The_Patriot
05-09-2006, 15:36
Eblis,

I support your notion that Sisters of Battle could "turn". Whether it's directly to Chaos, or a slow change to some "renegade" status without becoming overtly Chaotic...try it. It's NOT anti-fluff. The Patriot may know "more about" the fluff than you, as you assert, but I assure you, his literalist reading of the Witch Hunters Codex, and all the other fluf he's read, means he doesn't have as full a grasp of it as he thinks. He's not showing himself to be particularly insightful, and you shouldn't take his assertions as some "disproof" of your idea.

Patriot, your arguments are absurdly absolutist. And even if you were right, you are presenting your arguments in such a way as to NOT WIN ANYONE OVER. Your assumption that because Sisters have the Acts of Faith, they are immune to being co-opted by the Fellstruck Powers is just without merit. Your other arguments are reductionist, within a framework that should be viewed much more subjectively than you seem to.

It's been made clear, time and time again, that in 40K nothing is so pure in the Human realm, that it cannot be corrupted.

I have a lot of problems with the way Chaos is portrayed. Yes, the idea of "chaos SoBs" is easily exploited to stupid extremes. That doesn't make it impossible or even unheard of.
The mention of the Christian Messiah, insofar as, "He wasn't a God until he died", was, to say the least, poorly worded, ill-informed, and extremely irritating.

For one thing I have stated the Sisters could turn, but it's very rare to do so. I also stated that they do not gain acts of faith after they have turned. The fluff supports this as in Daemonifuge the chaos sister that was autopsied had the Mark of Slaneesh and none of them used any abilities other then what were listed for followers of Chaos. They would lose any abilities granted by the Emperor as they no longer follow him. Frankly I could care less if you were irritated by my comparison of Jesus and the Emperor.

The_Patriot
05-09-2006, 15:38
Is he, really? Is he even alive in the material world, anymore? Or is he a tortured prisoner in a golden cage, or a dead corpse preserved by the daily sacrifices of thousands of innocent souls just to keep the Imperium together? Or an empty vessel a-waiting for the greatest, most terrible demonic possession in the history of Mankind? :)


Don't take Imperial flavor text - which is what the italized paragraphs are - as the True Writ of GW. The flavor bits in most codexes directly or indirectly contradict eachother, and I haven't seen GW come out and explicitly say what's objectively right and what's wrong...

1. Good point and concede that part. lol

2. This is from the rules on page 18 of the CWH under Acts of Faith.

Acts of Faith are a manifestation of the Emperor's divine purpose;

Sephiroth
05-09-2006, 15:43
So instead of Acts of Faith, they get the rewards of Chaos...

I don't see what the problem is then. :p

Mikko
05-09-2006, 15:45
2. This is from the rules on page 18 of the CWH under Acts of Faith.

Acts of Faith are a manifestation of the Emperor's divine purpose;
Note the exact wording, though. It could mean anything, from the Emperor Himself actually getting involved, to the Sisters' simply pushing themselves to superhuman feats in their fanatical pursuit of "the Emperor's divine purpose".

The_Patriot
05-09-2006, 15:50
Note the exact wording, though. It could mean anything, from the Emperor Himself actually getting involved, to the Sisters' simply pushing themselves to superhuman feats in their fanatical pursuit of "the Emperor's divine purpose".

The use of the possessive noun Emperor of the words divine purpose means quite literally it comes from the Emperor. If they had used different wording then the meaning would be different. Let's rephrase the statement to an article of clothing.

Acts of Faith are a manifestation of the Emperor's underwear.

Are the underwear from the Sisters simply pushing themselves to superhuman feats or are they from the Emperor himself? :rolleyes:

The_Patriot
05-09-2006, 15:51
So instead of Acts of Faith, they get the rewards of Chaos...

I don't see what the problem is then. :p

Which are detailed in Chaos Space Marines. :D

Kriegsherr
05-09-2006, 15:59
The use of the possessive noun Emperor of the words divine purpose means quite literally it comes from the Emperor. If they had used different wording then the meaning would be different. Let's rephrase the statement to an article of clothing.

Acts of Faith are a manifestation of the Emperor's underwear.

Are the underwear from the Sisters simply pushing themselves to superhuman feats or are they from the Emperor himself? :rolleyes:

Its in their underwear! Never heard of the superman-suit? This now is superwomans bikini.

You know what he meant. You know that RAW (Rules as Written), while beeing seen as a bad habit by a lot of players, is quite a valid habit for viewing the Rules, as they are something meant to be set in stone to be able to play a game, while FAW (Fluff as Written), is seen as fluff nazi style of the worst kind by all players i've seen so far, and lacks any basing....

Fluff is not meant to be taken literal, its meant to entertain, therefore exagarates things and is written from a particular point of view, the one of the sisters in this case.

The_Patriot
05-09-2006, 15:59
That's not what I was irritated about. That's a comparison made many times, and, though facile, not particularly problematic in and of itself.

You tried to shoot down the OP because you don't like the idea of an Order Militant "turning" at all. Everything else after that was you using fluff-ayatollah status as a way to discredit Eblis' idea.

You've also made some wildly innacurate statements concerning the fluff you supposedly know so well, such as Inquisitors all being psykers by default.

You are not the authority that your pompous postings are supposed to make you look like. Every other poster here has been attempting to argue with you under the assumption that you're in this for discussion. I think otherwise; I think your posts indicate you like to make others feel small.

However, their assumption that you are a better person than that is laudable; a very charitable attitude. That's what their discussing this subject with you is...an act of charity.

The tone of your posts suggests it is an act of charity you don't deserve.

Originally that was my position, but it changed after I read Daemonifuge. Funny how things work that way in that you learn something new and change your views on it. I had originally stated my position as such due to Miriael Sabathiel being the only fallen Sister I knew about.

Funny but according to the rules on Inquisitors it does have this statement under special rules.

Psyker: Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor are often potent psykers and may select psychic powers from the Ordo Hereticus Psychic Powers list.

The_Patriot
05-09-2006, 16:02
Its in their underwear! Never heard of the superman-suit? This now is superwomans bikini.

You know what he meant. You know that RAW (Rules as Written), while beeing seen as a bad habit by a lot of players, is quite a valid habit for viewing the Rules, as they are something meant to be set in stone to be able to play a game, while FAW (Fluff as Written), is seen as fluff nazi style of the worst kind by all players i've seen so far, and lacks any basing....

Fluff is not meant to be taken literal, its meant to entertain, therefore exagarates things and is written from a particular point of view, the one of the sisters in this case.

I used RAW to back up my position in that Acts of Faith come from the Emperor. There is no fluff involved since these are the rules concerning them. I take it that rules aren't to be taken literally right? :wtf:

insectum7
05-09-2006, 16:04
Funny but according to the rules on Inquisitors it does have this statement under special rules.

Psyker: Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor are often potent psykers and may select psychic powers from the Ordo Hereticus Psychic Powers list.

'often' doesn't mean always

Mikko
05-09-2006, 16:06
The use of the possessive noun Emperor of the words divine purpose means quite literally it comes from the Emperor. If they had used different wording then the meaning would be different. Let's rephrase the statement to an article of clothing.

Acts of Faith are a manifestation of the Emperor's underwear.

Are the underwear from the Sisters simply pushing themselves to superhuman feats or are they from the Emperor himself? :rolleyes:
"The Emperor" and "the Emperor's divine lingerie" are two different things. Anybody could wear the Emperor's unmentionables, but that wouldn't make him the Emperor (unless the cosmology of 40K is even more disturbing than I had imagined), and someone else putting on His knickers wouldn't require the Emperor's personal involvement.

Likewise, "the Emperor's divine purpose", an abstract cause, is not the same as "the Emperor", a person.

Kriegsherr
05-09-2006, 16:06
Which are detailed in Chaos Space Marines. :D

Aw common.... you can't be serious.

Possesed marines can get rending demonic talons.... sobs can get rending... ehr... knives or bolters or fists or whatever.

Whats the big difference? Why should Chaotic marines be more comparable to chaotic sobs than chaotic sobs to imperial sobs?

Marines are not human, they are aliens in every aspect except for the two small differences that they are seen a needed evil by imperial authorethies and therefore accepted as "not alien enough to be purged" (and of course, as creations of the god-imperator can be a little bit more heretic and alien than other imperial servants) and have started their lives as human beeing before beeing transformed into something quite different.

The point I want to make is: Only because a CSM can get a mutation without dieing from it and even put it to good use, doesn't mean a mere mortal like a sister would survive it when tentacles grow out of her head.

But I don't think you ever considered the differences between humans and Marines.... as you only seemed to be concerned about putting Sisters above everything else :p

The_Patriot
05-09-2006, 16:06
'often' doesn't mean always

Quite right, but according to the rules Inquisitors are psykers.

The_Patriot
05-09-2006, 16:07
Aw common.... you can't be serious.

Possesed marines can get rending demonic talons.... sobs can get rending... ehr... knives or bolters or fists or whatever.

Whats the big difference? Why should Chaotic marines be more comparable to chaotic sobs than chaotic sobs to imperial sobs?

Marines are not human, they are aliens in every aspect except for the two small differences that they are seen a needed evil by imperial authorethies and therefore accepted as "not alien enough to be purged" (and of course, as creations of the god-imperator can be a little bit more heretic and alien than other imperial servants) and have started their lives as human beeing before beeing transformed into something quite different.

The point I want to make is: Only because a CSM can get a mutation without dieing from it and even put it to good use, doesn't mean a mere mortal like a sister would survive it when tentacles grow out of her head.

But I don't think you ever considered the differences between humans and Marines.... as you only seemed to be concerned about putting Sisters above everything else :p

Actually Marines are human due to the genetic base. Are you seriously telling me that the Emperor and the geneseed he created are aliens? ;)

Kriegsherr
05-09-2006, 16:10
I used RAW to back up my position in that Acts of Faith come from the Emperor. There is no fluff involved since these are the rules concerning them. I take it that rules aren't to be taken literally right? :wtf:

You have to take it literally for playing the game, yes. But rules =/= fluff.

Its like the Marine fans calling for movie marines. In their fluff, they seem to be quite the one man army. But the rules suggest something different.

We can now assume marines aren't as good as bad story writers suggest. Or that the game designers toned them down to sell more minis / make the game more enjoyable.

The same applies to sisters. Fluff is not so binary as you seem to think.

The_Patriot
05-09-2006, 16:10
"The Emperor" and "the Emperor's divine lingerie" are two different things. Anybody could wear the Emperor's unmentionables, but that wouldn't make him the Emperor (unless the cosmology of 40K is even more disturbing than I had imagined), and someone else putting on His knickers wouldn't require the Emperor's personal involvement.

Likewise, "the Emperor's divine purpose", an abstract cause, is not the same as "the Emperor", a person.

I disagree since according to English grammar Emperor refers to a specific person and that he has a divine purpose. Let me guess when the Emperor ordered the Great Crusades and called them his divine purpose he really didn't mean that it was his divine purpose but some spin put out by the Imperium press corps. :p

Kriegsherr
05-09-2006, 16:11
Actually Marines are human due to the genetic base. Are you seriously telling me that the Emperor and the geneseed he created are aliens? ;)

They carry human genes in them.... so do genestealers according to fluff :p

insectum7
05-09-2006, 16:12
I used RAW to back up my position in that Acts of Faith come from the Emperor. There is no fluff involved since these are the rules concerning them. I take it that rules aren't to be taken literally right? :wtf:

Thats a rediculous presumption and you know it! There is the 'meat' of the rules, which tell how the power/ability eaffects the game in game turns, and then there is the flourishy description designed to make the player feel cool/good or add flavor/fluff to the action. The descriptions in wargear sections have led many a player to re-interpret the flourishy description and alter or convert models with a new theme in mind. This is totally within bounds for many gamers, as long as the item still works the same way on the tabletop.

The_Patriot
05-09-2006, 16:12
You have to take it literally for playing the game, yes. But rules =/= fluff.

Its like the Marine fans calling for movie marines. In their fluff, they seem to be quite the one man army. But the rules suggest something different.

We can now assume marines aren't as good as bad story writers suggest. Or that the game designers toned them down to sell more minis / make the game more enjoyable.

The same applies to sisters. Fluff is not so binary as you seem to think.

Fluff is fluff and rules are rules. The rules generally follow the fluff. As for the Movie Marines I've already detailed quite well how the stats in 40k for the Marines do represent their fluff stats in another thread.

The_Patriot
05-09-2006, 16:15
Thats a rediculous presumption and you know it! There is the 'meat' of the rules, which tell how the power/ability eaffects the game in game turns, and then there is the flourishy description designed to make the player feel cool/good or add flavor/fluff to the action. The descriptions in wargear sections have led many a player to re-interpret the flourishy description and alter or convert models with a new theme in mind. This is totally within bounds for many gamers, as long as the item still works the same way on the tabletop.

Explain to me how according to the rules that Chaos Sisters would be able to have access to faith and Acts of Faith using both the rules and the fluff. The rules state quite simply that Acts of Faith are from the Emperor and part of his divine purpose. The fluff backs this assertation up.

Kriegsherr
05-09-2006, 16:16
Fluff is fluff and rules are rules. The rules generally follow the fluff. As for the Movie Marines I've already detailed quite well how the stats in 40k for the Marines do represent their fluff stats in another thread.

Well, everyone interprets fluff in another way.

What makes you think your interpretation is the right one?

and if you're so keen on fluff, Fluff should be > than rules. In your case it seems Fluff < Rules. Don't try to bring rules into a fluff debate, or you will get the :wtf: responses you get now.

The_Patriot
05-09-2006, 16:16
They carry human genes in them.... so do genestealers according to fluff :p

Actually no since Marines start out human and undergo genetic manipulation to make them into Marines. They are human not alien.

The_Patriot
05-09-2006, 16:18
Well, everyone interprets fluff in another way.

What makes you think your interpretation is the right one?

and if you're so keen on fluff, Fluff should be > than rules. In your case it seems Fluff < Rules. Don't try to bring rules into a fluff debate, or you will get the :wtf: responses you get now.

I use both since the rules follow the fluff. Everyone is entitled to their own interpratation of the fluff, but the rules make it quite clear that acts of faith are from the Emperor.

insectum7
05-09-2006, 16:18
Quite right, but according to the rules Inquisitors are psykers.

Which rules state that all inquisitors are psykers? All I see is 'may be psykers' or 'many manifest psychic powers' nowehere does it say 'all'

Kriegsherr
05-09-2006, 16:19
Explain to me how according to the rules that Chaos Sisters would be able to have access to faith and Acts of Faith using both the rules and the fluff. The rules state quite simply that Acts of Faith are from the Emperor and part of his divine purpose. The fluff backs this assertation up.

How does the fluff do that? And why did you miss the ironic undertone in all imperial fluff? The little references to nazis, to the communists, to different religious zealots of different ages and color, to 1984 from orwell, to a dozen other sources of cool social criticism?

Its like if you take sarcasm literally...

The_Patriot
05-09-2006, 16:20
Which rules state that all inquisitors are psykers? All I see is 'may be psykers' or 'many manifest psychic powers' nowehere does it say 'all'

Special rules state they have the psyker ability whether or not they actually take a power.

Mikko
05-09-2006, 16:21
I disagree since according to English grammar Emperor refers to a specific person and that he has a divine purpose. Let me guess when the Emperor ordered the Great Crusades and called them his divine purpose he really didn't mean that it was his divine purpose but some spin put out by the Imperium press corps. :p
Running with that example, the crusades were a separate entity from the Emperor and functioned without his direct involvement, despite being called His divine purpose. Association a person with their cause is only a metaphorical convention. "USA conquered Iwo Jima" doesn't mean that the United States of America, the country, physically moved over to Iwo Jima, but that representatives of USA claimed the island in the country's name. Similarily, "the Emperor's divine purpose" can mean the Emperor's personal interest, or the abstract cause his followers follow, or any of a number of other things.

Mind you, I'm not saying I'm objectively right, just that there's ample room for interpretation and theological schism (which is pretty much the whole point of much Imperial fluff).

PS. And even then, there's the never answered (as it should be) question of what, exactly, is/was the Emperor's purpose...

Kriegsherr
05-09-2006, 16:21
I use both since the rules follow the fluff. Everyone is entitled to their own interpratation of the fluff, but the rules make it quite clear that acts of faith are from the Emperor.

Okay, I see it differently.

Its clear as in "its a clear, rainy day"

The_Patriot
05-09-2006, 16:21
How does the fluff do that? And why did you miss the ironic undertone in all imperial fluff? The little references to nazis, to the communists, to different religious zealots of different ages and color, to 1984 from orwell, to a dozen other sources of cool social criticism?

Its like if you take sarcasm literally...

The burden of proof rests on you to provide a basis for your position that Chaos Sisters can use Acts of Faith.

Outlaw289
05-09-2006, 16:21
How does the fluff do that? And why did you miss the ironic undertone in all imperial fluff? The little references to nazis, to the communists, to different religious zealots of different ages and color, to 1984 from orwell, to a dozen other sources of cool social criticism?

Its like if you take sarcasm literally...

I always took the Sisters of Battle to actually have divine powers. Because y'know, the warp, which the Emperor acts through, can channel that kind of stuff.

In 1984 and all that jazz there wasn't an Emperor-God that managed the movement of starfleets and fought daemons.

The_Patriot: What if you replaced "Acts of Faith" with "Trepidations of Heresy", and used all the same benefits except making fluff-rationalizations to make it sound like Chaos gifts

insectum7
05-09-2006, 16:22
Special rules state they have the psyker ability whether or not they actually take a power.

which ones?

In fact, under 'Iron Will' it says "Psyker or not, an Inquisitor Lord [blah blah]" Directly indicating that many Inquisitors are not psykers.

The_Patriot
05-09-2006, 16:23
Running with that example, the crusades were a separate entity from the Emperor and functioned without his direct involvement, despite being called His divine purpose. Association a person with their cause is only a metaphorical convention. "USA conquered Iwo Jima" doesn't mean that the United States of America, the country, physically moved over to Iwo Jima, but that representatives of USA claimed the island in the country's name. Similarily, "the Emperor's divine purpose" can mean the Emperor's personal interest, or the abstract cause his followers follow, or any of a number of other things.

Mind you, I'm not saying I'm objectively right, just that there's ample room for interpretation and theological schism (which is pretty much the whole point of much Imperial fluff).

So now you're saying that it's representatives of the Emperor that grant these powers to the Sisters. :wtf:

Kriegsherr
05-09-2006, 16:23
Special rules state they have the psyker ability whether or not they actually take a power.

What means, they have simplified the whole entry by just saying "they can be psykers and may take psy powers or be non-psykers, but still count as such" as it only makes a difference against one army.... WH themselves. so what.

The_Patriot
05-09-2006, 16:24
which ones?

In fact, under 'Iron Will' it says "Psyker or not, an Inquisitor Lord [blah blah]" Directly indicating that many Inquisitors are not psykers.

Psyker Special Rules. lol Psyker in Iron Will refers to them taking a psyker power or not.

insectum7
05-09-2006, 16:25
Psyker Special Rules. lol Psyker in Iron Will refers to them taking a psyker power or not.

how can you be sure?

Kriegsherr
05-09-2006, 16:28
The burden of proof rests on you to provide a basis for your position that Chaos Sisters can use Acts of Faith.

Yeah, like having to proof that moslems can be as religious as christians.... or the "my god is real, yours is not".

You know what I and other posting here think of it: They can use Acts of chaos faith. Because "the emperors divine will" is something different to "the emperor himself"

Mikko
05-09-2006, 16:29
So now you're saying that it's representatives of the Emperor that grant these powers to the Sisters. :wtf:
Er... no. I'm saying the Sisters wield powers that they, as representatives of the Emperor, naturally assume to be manifestations of His will. Whether that "will" is actively applied by the Emperor himself, or is just an abstract philosophical cause inspiring His followers to superhuman deeds, is unknown.

Kriegsherr
05-09-2006, 16:31
Er... no. I'm saying the Sisters wield powers that they, as representatives of the Emperor, naturally assume to be manifestations of His will. Whether that "will" is actively applied by the Emperor himself, or is just an abstract philosophical cause inspiring His followers to superhuman deeds, is unknown.

Absolutly... please notice the word put in bold letters. This man knows what he speaks of.

Only the imperator himself knows what acts of faith really are. Do you want to say you are the imperator incarnate? I think mister inquisitor will have some questions for you then.

The_Patriot
05-09-2006, 16:31
how can you be sure?

Witch Hunters FAQ states it.

Psykers

As Inquisitors and Inquisitor Lords have the special rule Psyker, they are counted as such whether or not they take any psychic powers. The same goes for Daemonhunters Inquisitors and Inquisitor Lords, and for models with the Mark of Tzeentch receive the sorcerer ability, even if they take no psychic powers.

http://us.games-workshop.com/errata/assets/witch_hunters_faq_v4-0.pdf

Outlaw289
05-09-2006, 16:31
Yeah, like having to proof that moslems can be as religious as christians.... or the "my god is real, yours is not".

You know what I and other posting here think of it: They can use Acts of chaos faith. Because "the emperors divine will" is something different to "the emperor himself"

The Emperor's Divine will is his psychic presence in the warp. I thought this was pretty clear

The_Patriot
05-09-2006, 16:33
Er... no. I'm saying the Sisters wield powers that they, as representatives of the Emperor, naturally assume to be manifestations of His will. Whether that "will" is actively applied by the Emperor himself, or is just an abstract philosophical cause inspiring His followers to superhuman deeds, is unknown.

The Emperor is a person not a country thus your point is invalid. Due to him being a person under the rules of grammar the powers come from him.

Kriegsherr
05-09-2006, 16:34
The Emperor's Divine will is his psychic presence in the warp. I thought this was pretty clear

Were do you get the inclination that this is the absolute truth? I only got the impression only the Imperator himself knows the truth about this matter. And he, sadly, don't talk directly to his servants... only through very questionable channels like the tarot, dreams or *gasp* psionic visions (heresy!)

The_Patriot
05-09-2006, 16:34
Yeah, like having to proof that moslems can be as religious as christians.... or the "my god is real, yours is not".

You know what I and other posting here think of it: They can use Acts of chaos faith. Because "the emperors divine will" is something different to "the emperor himself"

Back it up with fluff that they can use Acts of Faith. The burden of proof resides with you. Since you know that there is no fluff to support such a thing, but there is plenty of fluff supporting that Chaos gods cannot give out abilities like this that means Chaos Sisters can only use powers listed in Chaos Space Marines.

Azazel
05-09-2006, 16:35
I think it's a cool idea. Anything unusual is cool.

As for Fluff. Yeah its possible.

As for modelling, I'd like to see how it'd look.

Kriegsherr
05-09-2006, 16:35
The Emperor is a person not a country thus your point is invalid. Due to him being a person under the rules of grammar the powers come from him.

What? I think you're playing dumb on purpose! Thats not what the quoted post meant and you know it. Stop playing the grammar nazi, please... I feel reminded of my school teachers, not a very fond memory ;)

Outlaw289
05-09-2006, 16:36
Were do you get the inclination that this is the absolute truth? I only got the impression only the Imperator himself knows the truth about this matter. And he, sadly, don't talk directly to his servants... only through very questionable channels like the tarot, dreams or *gasp* psionic visions (heresy!)

I dunno I figured the likes of Saint Celestine and Ollanius Pius and others were psychich individuals further enhanced by the Emperor's Guidance. I also thought it affected every other faithful servant but to a lesser degree.

Unlike our world and the dystopian governemtns that the Imperium is based off of, the Emperor actually has godlike powers in a realm of the supernatural.


I think it's a cool idea. Anything unusual is cool.


I wouldn't say anything

The_Patriot
05-09-2006, 16:36
What? I think you're playing dumb on purpose! Thats not what the quoted post meant and you know it. Stop playing the grammar nazi, please... I feel reminded of my school teachers, not a very fond memory ;)

Then stop being obtuse about it and admit you're wrong. It takes a big man to admit they were wrong. ;)

insectum7
05-09-2006, 16:37
Witch Hunters FAQ states it.

Psykers

As Inquisitors and Inquisitor Lords have the special rule Psyker, they are counted as such whether or not they take any psychic powers. The same goes for Daemonhunters Inquisitors and Inquisitor Lords, and for models with the Mark of Tzeentch receive the sorcerer ability, even if they take no psychic powers.

http://us.games-workshop.com/errata/assets/witch_hunters_faq_v4-0.pdf

Interesting, I wonder why they did that... and though they count as psykers for the game, does that mean that all inquisitors have to be psychic for fluff purposes. Probably not.

Kriegsherr
05-09-2006, 16:39
Back it up with fluff that they can use Acts of Faith. The burden of proof resides with you. Since you know that there is no fluff to support such a thing, but there is plenty of fluff supporting that Chaos gods cannot give out abilities like this that means Chaos Sisters can only use powers listed in Chaos Space Marines.

Ok, as soon as there is "official" fluff (as in "codex fluff", because some people (me included) don't see BL books and stuff as canon fluff) on "chaos sororitas" or "witchhunter from hell", I will inform of this very happy occasion and point out the page were you find that information.

As long as there is none, I only point out that there is NOWHERE a sentence saying "chaos sisters of battle can't use acts of faith as they are not faithful to anything anymore" and thus a clear answer in this point is missing

Mikko
05-09-2006, 16:39
The Emperor is a person not a country thus your point is invalid. Due to him being a person under the rules of grammar the powers come from him.
That doesn't have anything to do with what I posted.

lomo
05-09-2006, 16:40
Hello, I have been reading this thread since its start, and I havent read codex witch hunters and have no real knowledge of the sob. However I do have one question.

This thread talk about alot about faith and rules and fluff regarding this, my question is simple.

What do the sob have faith in?

Kriegsherr
05-09-2006, 16:40
Then stop being obtuse about it and admit you're wrong. It takes a big man to admit they were wrong. ;)

You making fun of me right? Stop trolling! It gets on my nerves.

The_Patriot
05-09-2006, 16:40
Interesting, I wonder why they did that... and though they count as psykers for the game, does that mean that all inquisitors have to be psychic for fluff purposes. Probably not.

In the fluff I've read Inquisitors project a unique signature in the warp due to their nature in hunting down daemons and the like. They also have a psychic attunement that helps them find their enemy and recognize who they are. I point out Inquisitor Hand and Inquisitor Grinnen from Daemonifuge as examples.

Mikko
05-09-2006, 16:40
What do the sob have faith in?
Put brief, the Emperor.

The_Patriot
05-09-2006, 16:41
Hello, I have been reading this thread since its start, and I havent read codex witch hunters and have no real knowledge of the sob. However I do have one question.

This thread talk about alot about faith and rules and fluff regarding this, my question is simple.

What do the sob have faith in?

The Emperor as God.

Kriegsherr
05-09-2006, 16:41
Hello, I have been reading this thread since its start, and I havent read codex witch hunters and have no real knowledge of the sob. However I do have one question.

This thread talk about alot about faith and rules and fluff regarding this, my question is simple.

What do the sob have faith in?

they have a system called faith points. It allows them to get some boni for a turn that they think is a gift from the imperator.

The codex however quite clearly states that what this acts of faith really are is unknown.

Kriegsherr
05-09-2006, 16:42
In the fluff I've read Inquisitors project a unique signature in the warp due to their nature in hunting down daemons and the like. They also have a psychic attunement that helps them find their enemy and recognize who they are. I point out Inquisitor Hand and Inquisitor Grinnen from Daemonifuge as examples.

Stop mixing fluff and rules.

The_Patriot
05-09-2006, 16:44
That doesn't have anything to do with what I posted.

You said this did you not?


Running with that example, the crusades were a separate entity from the Emperor and functioned without his direct involvement, despite being called His divine purpose. Association a person with their cause is only a metaphorical convention. "USA conquered Iwo Jima" doesn't mean that the United States of America, the country, physically moved over to Iwo Jima, but that representatives of USA claimed the island in the country's name. Similarily, "the Emperor's divine purpose" can mean the Emperor's personal interest, or the abstract cause his followers follow, or any of a number of other things.

The Emperor is a person not a thing like a country. ;)

The_Patriot
05-09-2006, 16:44
Stop mixing fluff and rules.

When they stop putting fluff out in the Codex books I will. :p Oh since you're so adamant about not mixing fluff with rules then under the rules no sister can turn to chaos. Therefore, there are no Chaos Sisters.

The_Patriot
05-09-2006, 16:45
they have a system called faith points. It allows them to get some boni for a turn that they think is a gift from the imperator.

The codex however quite clearly states that what this acts of faith really are is unknown.

Not true since I already posted up from the rules concerning them that they are from the Emperor.

insectum7
05-09-2006, 16:48
In the fluff I've read Inquisitors project a unique signature in the warp due to their nature in hunting down daemons and the like. They also have a psychic attunement that helps them find their enemy and recognize who they are. I point out Inquisitor Hand and Inquisitor Grinnen from Daemonifuge as examples.

Yeah? And in the fluff I've read the inquisition is under orders from the Emperor to enslave and make docile the entirety of humanity using a multi-tentacled warp entity that spans the Galaxy. It was in the fluff so it must be true.

Kriegsherr
05-09-2006, 16:49
When they stop putting fluff out in the Codex books I will. :p

Maybe they should to stop people confusing it :p

Kriegsherr
05-09-2006, 16:50
Yeah? And in the fluff I've read the inquisition is under orders from the Emperor to enslave and make docile the entirety of humanity using a multi-tentacled warp entity that spans the Galaxy. It was in the fluff so it must be true.

It is.... its a galaxywide conspiracy that tries to exchange the imperator with the great ctullhu.

The_Patriot
05-09-2006, 16:51
Yeah? And in the fluff I've read the inquisition is under orders from the Emperor to enslave and make docile the entirety of humanity using a multi-tentacled warp entity that spans the Galaxy. It was in the fluff so it must be true.

You asked a question and I gave you an answer. Both according to the fluff and the rules Inquisitors are psykers.

lomo
05-09-2006, 16:51
Not true since I already posted up from the rules concerning them that they are from the Emperor.

But if they know these "gifts" are from the Emperor, why the need for faith?

The_Patriot
05-09-2006, 16:52
But if they know these "gifts" are from the Emperor, why the need for faith?

It is through faith that allows them access to these gifts.

Kriegsherr
05-09-2006, 16:52
Not true since I already posted up from the rules concerning them that they are from the Emperor.

Ehm.... yes, you posted it a lot of time. No, you didn't were able to convince anyone here of your point.

Kriegsherr
05-09-2006, 16:54
Ever played Inquisitor The_Patriot? There is no rule there that Inquisitor=Psyker.

Mikko
05-09-2006, 16:54
You said this did you not?
That's not the post you quoted back there.


The Emperor is a person not a thing like a country. ;)
It's called an analogy. And grammar is the same for all words, completely regardless of what they actually mean, which is why, for ex, you were able to replace "divine purpose" with "underwear" without turning it into gibberish...

Captain Brown
05-09-2006, 16:54
This thread has run its course and now is being employed as a method of getting the last word in.

Reminder: to all members not to let their passion for the game over ride their good sense and posting habits. In addition this thread is filled with double and triple posts by several members; this is a strikable offence under the WarSeer Rules. Please use the multiquote button instead of useless repeats to increase your post count.

Thread Closed.

Captain Brown
WarSeer Inquisition