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10th clancannach rangers
04-09-2006, 17:03
Why in many of the models that GW produces, do power/terminator armoured marines esp. sergeants/weapon troopers/characters go nito battle without wear any helmets. Why go into battle with the best armour the imperium has to offer and get killed by the first lucky head shot that comes your way! Also all the special marines without hats are making themselves obvious targets for enemy fire.

This of course leads to the question of how have the Space Wolves survived so long as half their chapter doesn't wear helmets!

Brother Smith
04-09-2006, 17:08
Artistic liscence.

Goq Gar
04-09-2006, 17:10
Snipers. With bad aim.

Wolflord Havoc
04-09-2006, 17:19
I have been told that wearing a helmet does 'dull' the senses when out on patrol etc. This is why you see chaps in the Jungle wearing caps etc instead.

Better to see the danger before needing the helmet to protect you than having the helmet and not seeing the danger.

However the real reason is Artistic licence and often to show who the Vet Sgt or Character is.

As for the Space Wolves not wearing helmets

A) They are really really Hard
B) Back ground would have us believe that their 'Wolf Senses' work better without the helmet
C) They like to show off their manly locks of hair and fine beards...by Russ

Kage2020
04-09-2006, 17:21
Rule of Cool, as others have suggested.

Kage

Inq. Veltane
04-09-2006, 17:28
Yep, simplt to look good. Marine helmets have autosenses which means that wearing a helmet actually has no negative effect for them. Basically...the marines do wear helmets really but the models don't.

Gen.Steiner
04-09-2006, 17:54
My marines do. It's easy with plastics, and makes a change from the Guard, who need acres of flesh (add up all those hands and faces) painting...

Philip S
04-09-2006, 18:12
Why in many of the models that GW produces, do power/terminator armoured marines esp. sergeants/weapon troopers/characters go nito battle without wear any helmets. Why go into battle with the best armour the imperium has to offer and get killed by the first lucky head shot that comes your way! Also all the special marines without hats are making themselves obvious targets for enemy fire.

This of course leads to the question of how have the Space Wolves survived so long as half their chapter doesn't wear helmets!
Iron halo?

Philip

Kage2020
04-09-2006, 18:45
Ah, wondered if that one would come out. Valid answer, though not everyone has one of them. Plus, one would imagine that there are times when it isn't going to be much help. (E.g. are Iron Halo's conveniently hermetically sealed?)

Kage

Philip S
04-09-2006, 18:47
(E.g. are Iron Halo's conveniently hermetically sealed?)
Er, yes?

:D

Philip

Outlaw289
04-09-2006, 19:05
Some old fluff had Marines getting shot in the head by some kind of Eldar weapon and regaining conciousness rather quickly for an otherwise fatal shot.

Still not a good reason though.

Kage2020
04-09-2006, 19:31
Er, yes?

:D
LOL. Well, that's answered it then! ;)

Seriously, though, it's an old argument. Do you consider the representations in the 'fluff' as defining a need for additional material to justify it, or do you take it as artistic license? I for one fall into the second category whereas, to my knowledge, Philip S falls into the former category.

To each their own...

As to the "fatal shot"? Remember that despite their technological advancement, Eldar utilise spit-wads and empty pens as their main offensive weapon. Or elastic bands, if you look to hellebore's signature! ;)

Kage

Philip S
04-09-2006, 19:35
An Iron Halo is artistic licence!

Philip

Kage2020
04-09-2006, 19:49
That was kind of the point, Philip. :D

Kage

Dominus Doloris
05-09-2006, 02:59
Basically...the marines do wear helmets really but the models don't.
I agree... Its just for basic heroism and theatrics
It's hard to associate heros and characters with faceless helmets...

Dark Apostle197
05-09-2006, 03:05
ALL my marines(when i played them) had helmets. the characters were still easy to see.

The_Patriot
05-09-2006, 03:21
It's newly discovered old tech for invisible helmets and they are rare. So rare that only Space Marines and Sisters of Battle get them!one! :p

cailus
05-09-2006, 04:48
Rule of Cool, as others have suggested.

Kage


Once again 100% right. It's the rule of cool.

Much like in Top Gun where all the bad pilots wear a visor and oxygen masks while Tom Cruise takes his off. My personal bet is on the pilot who can see and breathe properly.

But rule of cool specifies that Tom Cruise can take it off and still destroy those F-5's...whoops I mean MiG-28.

Indrid Khold
05-09-2006, 06:59
Or you could claim that all the guys without helmets (usually sergeants and such) are always at the forefront of the battle, and as such they always take more fire, and as such they have a higher chance of their helmet getting blasted and its internal workings fouled up.

I'm sure that's it. Yes, sure of it.

Or maybe they noticed that the Eldar were going into battle with virtually no armor at all, and decided to be sporting and leave the helmets at home.

Inq. Veltane
05-09-2006, 09:37
Or maybe they noticed that the Eldar were going into battle with virtually no armor at all, and decided to be sporting and leave the helmets at home.

:D

Something like that.

Nathaniel
05-09-2006, 10:07
I'd say in a practical point of view, like the warriors of old, Space Marine commanders & Sergents take their helmets off before battle to asses the situation, get a feel of the atmosphere before said battle & to give inspiring speaches & last minute orders to their detachments/squads without a helmet to impede said orders.

I always assume in battle they put their helmets on unless they gain a significant advantage in battle without head protection.

Mojaco
05-09-2006, 10:42
You can ask the same regarding camoflage. None of the races besides ig seem to use it.

Philip S
05-09-2006, 12:58
That was kind of the point, Philip. :D

Kage
Oh.


Once again 100% right. It's the rule of cool.
Well if we think it’s cool, I imagine marines think it’s cool.

If marines do this sort of thing a lot – wouldn’t the Ad-Mec find a way to protect the idiots from themselves?

Though the Iron Halo is restricted to one per army in the wargear book, I imagine any marine who is important enough for other marines to see his face would have an Iron Halo.

Marines are heroes, and a Blood Claw pack is going to need a whole heap of them!

The Space Wolves would probably call the ‘collars’ :p


I'd say in a practical point of view, like the warriors of old, Space Marine commanders & Sergents take their helmets off before battle to asses the situation, get a feel of the atmosphere before said battle & to give inspiring speaches & last minute orders to their detachments/squads without a helmet to impede said orders.
I don’t think wearing a helmet impedes orders and such in any way, the Space Marine helm is far too advanced for that.

I think the sole reason for a leader to not wear a helm (and an Iron Halo instead) is so his men can see his face and how ‘marine’ he really is, even under pressure in the thick of battle. They see the resolve and aggression in his face and this inspires them to similar feats.

Only the leader needs to inspire so the others in this fashion, so they others can remain faceless.

I also imagine there is a certain amount of pride, ego and general showing off to go with the Iron Halo.


You can ask the same regarding camoflage. None of the races besides ig seem to use it.
I would disagree, I think most of the non IG armies have no problem seeing through basic camouflage via infra-vision.

I think Eldar, Orcs, Nids, Chaos Marines and Necrons and probably the Tau all have counter-camouflage technology that make most targets show up like a bonfire on November the 5th.

The only opponents where camouflage would be of any use is when fighting rebel humans.

Philip

Sai-Lauren
05-09-2006, 13:14
So the enemy guardsmen get a chance to follow the sergeants orders and "wait until they see the whites of their eyes"? :angel:

As other have said, it's artistic license and rule of cool, a "faceless" helmeted hero is far less visually heroic than his helmetless counterpart - so by being bareheaded, they're automatically more obvious a leader than those around them.

Same for sororitas (I personally find the helmeted ones slightly less visually appealing than their bareheaded comrades).

Wheras the Space Wolves do it because they can't fit their beards and hair under their bone domes.:p

Anyway, I figure that the models capture the warrior at some point, and they actually do have a helmet when they go into battle - especially in non-oxygen atmospheres/vacumn.

Edit:

I would disagree, I think most of the non IG armies have no problem seeing through basic camouflage via infra-vision.
I doubt they're simply relying on basic camoflague - more likely armour (even a guardsmans flak jacket) includes heat diffusion, EMR supressants, radar absorbtion and/or scattering, sound muffling and pheremone absorbers to try and minimise every possible signature - although the sensors are good enough to work around most of it.

Lord Dante
05-09-2006, 13:25
I think the reason SM dont have camo is because in fluff term at least, they dont need it - they are shock assult troopers, probably in and out like the SAS.

A big red SM is probably a very scary sight, as it butchers your friends to death...

ancient_conflict
05-09-2006, 15:31
Oh.

I would disagree, I think most of the non IG armies have no problem seeing through basic camouflage via infra-vision.

I think Eldar, Orcs, Nids, Chaos Marines and Necrons and probably the Tau all have counter-camouflage technology that make most targets show up like a bonfire on November the 4th.

The only opponents where camouflage would be of any use is when fighting rebel humans.

Philip

its remember remember the 5TH of november gunpowder treason and plot.......

an also when you have an army of six million (an exageration i know) guardsmen its kinda nice to be able to easily distigush the leaders

Philip S
05-09-2006, 15:40
I doubt they're simply relying on basic camoflague - more likely armour (even a guardsmans flak jacket) includes heat diffusion, EMR supressants, radar absorbtion and/or scattering, sound muffling and pheremone absorbers to try and minimise every possible signature - although the sensors are good enough to work around most of it.
I think cermite flak jackets are good at stopping heat due to the material, but I don't think the guard are that worried about hiding (well the guardsman maybe! But command?) and it doesn't cover arms, face or legs.


its remember remember the 5TH of november gunpowder treason and plot.......
:p

Philip

Shibboleth
05-09-2006, 15:40
It's hard to associate heros and characters with faceless helmets... That's what bling is for. :D

Krusk
05-09-2006, 15:50
Bling, and cool and unique helmets and power armor. You can make heroes and such unique by giving them oldish lmarks of armor, IE they get the venerable and (especially) legendary armor of officers and commanders of the past.

Shaper Shakra
05-09-2006, 15:59
BAH! Who cares if their heads are blown off. They're Space Marines! They can probably fight just fine without them. I mean, what's the worst that could happen?

0011
05-09-2006, 17:35
BAH! Who cares if their heads are blown off. They're Space Marines! They can probably fight just fine without them. I mean, what's the worst that could happen?

true, true.

Kage2020
06-09-2006, 00:02
Oh...

Well if we think it’s cool, I imagine marines think it’s cool.

If marines do this sort of thing a lot – wouldn’t the Ad-Mec find a way to protect the idiots from themselves?
Once again, and just in case it was missed, this more than adequately represents the point that I was making. I would personally leave it at Rule of Cool and not try and justify it with increasingly more complex technologies just because it explains the "cool". Eventually we'll end up with naked Marines from the "celtic" mindset who are wearing completely enclosing power fields because that, too, is cool. :rolleyes: ;)


BAH! Who cares if their heads are blown off. They're Space Marines! They can probably fight just fine without them. I mean, what's the worst that could happen?
Now that explains it? The ones with the heads on are just the ones that haven't had them blown off yet! The rest have suffered this grievous wound and, like the demigods they so obviously are, shrugged it off and merely replaced it with the equivalent of a glass-eye prosthetic...

OMG! It makes perfect sense! :rolleyes:

;)

Kage

sulla
06-09-2006, 08:45
Hmmm, maybe it's an indication of how much protection those helmets really give. After all, I wouldn't trust a modern day helmet to protect me from a gunshot... maybe helmets in the 41st millenium don't either... besides there is historical precedent for taking off the helmet so friendly troops can rally to the hero (of course, there's also historical precedent for getting shot in the eye in this situation too but you can't have everything your own way).

Sulla

Kegluneq
06-09-2006, 10:22
There's also historical precedent for getting shot in the eye whilst wearing a helmet as well :p

Beaky helmets are horribly unsafe, everything that hits the face is going to be deflected right into the eyes anyway...

Ikkaan
06-09-2006, 11:48
Helmets only have offensive use for lower ranks, seargants consider themselves above pounding an orks face with a helmet. They leave the emperor-forsaken soup bowl at home so it does not lose its polish. :D

Darthvegeta800
06-09-2006, 13:45
Or you could claim that all the guys without helmets (usually sergeants and such) are always at the forefront of the battle, and as such they always take more fire, and as such they have a higher chance of their helmet getting blasted and its internal workings fouled up.

I'm sure that's it. Yes, sure of it.

Or maybe they noticed that the Eldar were going into battle with virtually no armor at all, and decided to be sporting and leave the helmets at home.

Which is pretty funny seeing as those Eldar and Dark Eldar look like huge tin cans. (women look like attractive tin cans but tin cans nonetheless)
I mean all that hightech fluff, all that visible armour and still it's pretty worthless lol :p
And on a secondary note:
And CC orientated CSM's of mine always get a helmet.
I think my second shootie one will go full helmet too.

Shibboleth
06-09-2006, 17:40
I've always wondered if a Space Marine could just remove his faceplate and leave the rest of the helmet on...?
or have it swinging to the side like a fighter pilot. :cool:

Darthvegeta800
06-09-2006, 20:22
Seems rather solid. Than again some CSM's seem to have the upper half removed.

Buttons
13-09-2006, 22:18
I think the reason SM dont have camo is because in fluff term at least, they dont need it - they are shock assult troopers, probably in and out like the SAS.

A big red SM is probably a very scary sight, as it butchers your friends to death...
No the fluff states that most Marines are afraid that it would upset their armor's machine spirit to be painted over and hidden, others that only a coward would hide their chapter's colors. In fact the fluff woudl have it, the wonderful Red Scorpions frown on it such that they refuse to fight with anyone using camoflauge.

Sai-Lauren
14-09-2006, 10:53
The very same Red Scorpions that have a vehicle in camo in one of the old paint scheme pictures?:angel:

I figure some chapters probably have multiple suits of power armour for most of their marines anyway, so it's perfectly reasonable to have one in chapter colours, and one in some camo scheme where appropriate - possibly even a "dress" suit for specific occasions (IIRC, some chapters use the very earliest marks for chapter ceremonies).

Even for those that don't, they could certainly add extra ceremonial attention to the suit as it's being repainted on the way to the warzone, in order to appease the spirits.
After all, they're supposedly highly trained and taught virtually all the nuances of tactics and strategy - they maybe heavily indoctrinated, but they're not stupid, and if stealth and concealment will mean they complete their mission, wheras a frontal charge with banners flying will mean they all wind up dead, they'll break the paint brushes and spray cans out - victory gives it's own honour, defeat gives none.

And some camo schemes can look extremely good on power armour.:D

Buttons
14-09-2006, 15:41
The very same Red Scorpions that have a vehicle in camo in one of the old paint scheme pictures?:angel:

I figure some chapters probably have multiple suits of power armour for most of their marines anyway, so it's perfectly reasonable to have one in chapter colours, and one in some camo scheme where appropriate - possibly even a "dress" suit for specific occasions (IIRC, some chapters use the very earliest marks for chapter ceremonies).

Even for those that don't, they could certainly add extra ceremonial attention to the suit as it's being repainted on the way to the warzone, in order to appease the spirits.
After all, they're supposedly highly trained and taught virtually all the nuances of tactics and strategy - they maybe heavily indoctrinated, but they're not stupid, and if stealth and concealment will mean they complete their mission, wheras a frontal charge with banners flying will mean they all wind up dead, they'll break the paint brushes and spray cans out - victory gives it's own honour, defeat gives none.

And some camo schemes can look extremely good on power armour.:D

Yep. The very same. Makes you wonder, thought not too much given the state of canon.

FireN.Brimstone
14-09-2006, 17:01
First I think Marines without helmets deserve to die. But that said when I was thinking about power armor a while back (This thread (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21942)) I decided that they sometimes don't want to wear helmets because it would dull the senses their Emperor gave them, thus commanders and sergeants, those who have to analyze the battle and make command decisions, might sometimes prefer not to wear them.

LarryS
14-09-2006, 18:18
Those darned eldar pathfinders again...all the marines w/o helmets just took sniper shots to the head, destroying their helmets and causing them to make the "angry sergeant" face...:D

That, and the more emo chapters have a fatalistic "If I get shot in the head a helmet won't save me anyway...*SIGH*" attitude...

Son of the Lion
15-09-2006, 12:45
Those darned eldar pathfinders again...all the marines w/o helmets just took sniper shots to the head, destroying their helmets and causing them to make the "angry sergeant" face...:D




"Son of a.....! I just had that waxed!"

Griefbringer
15-09-2006, 14:39
Don't the marines also have hardened bone structure as a result of their special re-engineering after recruitment? That would lead to them having harder skulls too, thus becoming less vulnerable to head injury. :cool:

Gen.Steiner
15-09-2006, 14:48
There is a limit to what bone will do. I would rather not try and fend off a high-velocity piece of metal with one, two or even six inches of bone, thanks muchly. Pass us the helmet!

Sai-Lauren
15-09-2006, 14:54
There's also the associated trauma (blood loss, possibilty of infection, impact forces causes soft tissue damage (muscles, nerves and tendons) and concussion effects, spalling (bone fragments in the cranial cavity - nice :eek: ) and so on).

A marine's body may be able to cope, but why overtax it when you don't have to.

Kriegsherr
15-09-2006, 15:21
Well, a helmet has advantages and disadvantages.

Todays helmets are quite heavy (tiresome to wear for long periods), they limit the vision (especially to the sides), they limit the sound quite much (not a problem in a warzone when you are deaf after some seconds anyway ;), but on a patrol its another thing), and, last but not least, it gets quite hot under this damned helmets, which leads to a higher loss of fluids.
And of course, a helmet does not always safe you from head shots even when the bullet hits the helmet, especially snipers with high velocity guns are able to penetrate a sub-par helmet if they hit it correctly.

So todays helmets are not always the better choice as already said....

how this translates into the techno-helmets of scifi-knights I don't know ;)



Don't the marines also have hardened bone structure as a result of their special re-engineering after recruitment? That would lead to them having harder skulls too, thus becoming less vulnerable to head injury. :cool:


I don't think so

They are not Wolverine of the X-Men :p

Griefbringer
15-09-2006, 16:21
As for modern-day military helmets, they are not actually intended to stop small arms rounds, but shrapnel/fragments from artillery and mortar fire - which are the major casualty inflicters in a modern battlefield.

As for the space marine helmets, they get nice auto-senses and cooling system as part of their power armour, plus with the neck piece the weight of the helmet does not need to be borne just by the head.

Nazguire
16-09-2006, 07:29
As others have already said, artistic licence. But it could also be due to the mentality of "an officer should never be afraid in front of his troops"

In WWI, one of our commanders in Gallipoli believed in this, and never ducked when he walked through the trenches, never waivered, just bellowed out orders in his peaked cap.

Until a sniper took his head off.

But all the same. This could also apply, though it is obviously the 'rule of cool' at work for the most part.

damz451
17-09-2006, 02:35
well humans today can occasionally take shots to the head, there was something on discovery where a kid lost half his head (and brain) and still lives a normal life
http://www.thebni.com/index.asp?pg=au_suc_fernando&supnav=off&catID=au

Skrittiblak
17-09-2006, 11:53
WHY MARINES SOMETIMES CHOOSE NOT TO WEAR HELMETS

This is the only answer you need to read. :D As people have pointed out, helmets can dull senses.

Now lets be realistic about it, right?

If we assume that an Autogun (with S3) is roughly the same power as a modern HK G3 then we can assume that a Boltgun has the hitting power of a heavy machine gun (this is further confirmed by the S of a Heavy Stubber which is a heavy machine gun).

The Tau Pulse Rifle therefore is a weapon that is many times more powerful than a heavy machine gun.

The game of Warhammer 40,000 is also littered with such deadly hand-held weapons as the plasma gun and the meltagun which can reduce an entire Battle Tank to sizzled scrap metal in a round of fire.

Now... you're telling me that with this kind arsenal on the foes of man a puny sheet of plasteel wrapped around your head will save your life? Hahaha!

I don't think so. Marines were helmets for the same reason real soldiers wear helmets, to prevent damage from shrapnel (exploding stuff about them, sharp bits from your mate when he is hit by a krak missile etc...) but not to realistically protect against a bolt round which is theoretically as powerful as an M2B Machine Gun.

The helmet can maybe, stop a poor shot from a Lasgun, but as its a fully automatic weapon a burst to the head is still like to kill a fully armoured Marine.

Now lets look at this mechanically. Marines have a 3+ save against attacks which mean 33% of effective hits will kill a Marine.

I think its safe to assume that 67% of hits that don't kill the Marine are not being aimed at the head, while those that do either are lucky enough to punch through the plasteel and ceramite that protects their heart or more likely have been a head shot.

~

So in conclusion a helmet for a Marine is useful, but not mission critical. Certain marines, particularly those that want to keep their keen senses about them, like the Space Wolves, prefer not to wear helmets.

The only thing I would say is that a Marine without a helmet is psychologically tempting as that small pink, fleshy thing is sort of like a bulls-eye for an Eldar Longrifle. ;)

BUT! If that Rifle hits a different Marine in the head (one with a helmet) its likely to be a kill shot as well.

10th clancannach rangers
17-09-2006, 15:09
Skrittiblak, I think you are vastly underestimating the amount of protection power armour gives in the background, it is enough to stop most of the weapons of the 40k universe.

Also

punch through the plasteel and ceramite that protects their heart Don't they have a spare heart anyway?

Philip S
17-09-2006, 15:20
This is the only answer you need to read. :D As people have pointed out, helmets can dull senses.
Auto-sense are superior to normal senses, the only time a marine has a ‘naturally’ higher sense is in the case of the Space Wolves and their sense of smell.

A marine helm is very tough and worth wearing. It has auto-sense and cooling/ heating systems, radiation protection, enclosed environment protecting against airborne pathogens, chemical contamination, vacuum decompression and water submersion. Full vox and tactical info-feds

So a helm is important to the marines special ops role. Fortunately a marine can replace his helm with an iron-halo which to all intents and purposes is an invisible helmet (or could be if you squint at the background and rules)

Philip

lapis_lazuli
17-09-2006, 16:56
They definitely need to keep their helmets on when the atmosphere isn't breathable or when there are biological/chemical weapons being used. Space Marines fight on all kinds of planets, plus they perform boarding actions.

As for the effectiveness of power armour - it's made from plates of ceramite and plasteel! Crazy nano-engineered materials from the future! With the properties of concrete, plastic and solid metal! Those occassions when a marine fails his save represent shots hitting vulnerable areas of the suit, like exposed cables, joints, eye pieces, that big grille on the front of his helmet etc etc.

So, in response to Skrittiblak, yes, a marine's helmet comes in very handy for stopping direct hits.

Philip S
17-09-2006, 17:33
Those occassions when a marine fails his save represent shots hitting vulnerable areas of the suit, like exposed cables, joints, eye pieces
Eye pieces? Why would eye pieces make the marine vulnerable? They aren't like a normal helmet, the marine doesn't physically look through them!

The could be a sensor laid on top of solid ceramite armour plating, hitting it may stop the sensor from working but that's it!

I don't think that would even slow a marine down, their sensor net could be all over the armour, the eye ones are probably for normal mode and least important.

I imagine the marine helm's is literally two armour plates (upper overlapping face plate) without any holes machined into it other that the neck opening. All the gadgets are external mounts.


that big grille on the front of his helmet
They don't breath through that do they?

I though it was a vox caster system, so behind the grill could be a speaker mounted on solid armoured plate.

The intake (if they have one) for filtering air is most likely via the backpack - though I think the marine make use of a re-breather powered by the central core and so never have to take in external air. After all a marine on a mission would never relax and set up camp like regular troops, they don't sleep and are always 'on' (that's how much they have been messed about with!)

Philip

Kage2020
17-09-2006, 17:34
Auto-sense are superior to normal senses, the only time a marine has a ‘naturally’ higher sense is in the case of the Space Wolves and their sense of smell.
Methinks that is mostly because it is unlikely that power armour has chemical sniffers incorporated into it. It's a tad too specialised, unlike passive electromagnetic sensors... ;)


So a helm is important to the marines special ops role.
Not just "special ops" unless, of course, that is a catch-all term for everything that a Marine is involved in.


Fortunately a marine can replace his helm with an iron-halo which to all intents and purposes is an invisible helmet (or could be if you squint at the background and rules)
Meh.



Eye pieces? Why would eye pieces make the marine vulnerable? They aren't like a normal helmet, the marine doesn't physically look through them!
One would imagine that they could make the Marine "vulnerable" or, rather, are a point of vulnerability. While the Marine might utilises the passive EM sensors - sorry, autosenses - of their power armour, that doesn't mean that you would want to include a nice little window just in case the electronics start going a bit haywire. ;)


I imagine the marine helm's is literally two armour plates (upper overlapping face plate) without any holes machined into it other that the neck opening. All the gadgets are external mounts.
I disagree for completely practical reasons.


The intake (if they have one) for filtering air is most likely via the backpack - though I think the marine make use of a re-breather powered by the central core and so never have to take in external air.
Since it is unlikely to take up that much space, chances are the grill does include a rebreather for specialised circumstances. If it's not going to be effective, just shut it off...

Kage

Skrittiblak
17-09-2006, 17:42
So, in response to Skrittiblak, yes, a marine's helmet comes in very handy for stopping direct hits.


Are you nuts!? A boltgun is practically a compact missile launcher for cripes sake! The GW Fluff goes on for hours on end about how uber-death-killy the weapon is. It's a fully automatic weapon with the punch of a modern day heavy machine gun.

When a Space Marine fails his saving throw - that's a head shot. Helmets do not protect against direct hits from contemporary 40k weapons.

"By the emperor Justarious! Did the alien scum just burst-fire a pulse rifle at your cranium?"

"No problem Captain. I'm okay! I have my trusty helmet... just feels like I spent a whole week drinking down at the Slaaneshi Dancers all night club."

I don't think so. The helmet is not that critical. With or without, the marines are still in the 3+ save bracket.

Skrittiblak
17-09-2006, 17:46
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying the helmet isn't useful. Getting brained by shrapnel or having a Plague Marine stick his knife through your forehead are stupid ways to go. But if we assume most of the time the Marines are engaged in bolter / bolter firefights I don't think the helmet is the be all and end all of the protection power armour provides.

Shibboleth
17-09-2006, 17:51
Eye pieces? Why would eye pieces make the marine vulnerable? They aren't like a normal helmet, the marine doesn't physically look through them!
:wtf: Of course he does. It's armour, not a mecha battlesuit like the Tau.

Philip S
17-09-2006, 17:56
Methinks that is mostly because it is unlikely that power armour has chemical sniffers incorporated into it. It's a tad too specialised, unlike passive electromagnetic sensors... ;)
Chemical sniffers would be kwell, so they must be in their somewhere!


Meh.
Pah!


One would imagine that they could make the Marine "vulnerable" or, rather, are a point of vulnerability. While the Marine might utilises the passive EM sensors - sorry, autosenses - of their power armour, that doesn't mean that you would want to include a nice little window just in case the electronics start going a bit haywire. ;)
Electronics? You mean self repairing bio-photonics surely? :p


I disagree for completely practical reasons.
Such as?


Since it is unlikely to take up that much space, chances are the grill does include a rebreather for specialised circumstances. If it's not going to be effective, just shut it off...
If it included a rebreather it wouldn't need an external access, hence no grill (more like the beakies? Perhaps the Mark 7 move this to the backpack to get it out of the way? Remove a leverage point on the head in close combat?).

I just don't see them breathing air form outside, outside is an open system, it's far too large a weakness. It's much easier to have a closed system and use it all the time while on a mission. The only time their natural breathing is needed is in the case of damage.


:wtf: Of course he does. It's armour, not a mecha battlesuit like the Tau.
So what are autosense then?


Philip

Kage2020
17-09-2006, 18:10
As above, I would suggest that a Marine can look through the eye slots if he so wants, i.e. there is a malfunction in the autosenses, their neural link or whatever. Redundancy is, in my mind, a byword of Imperial technology, and Marine power armour isn't going to be an exception.


But if we assume most of the time the Marines are engaged in bolter / bolter firefights I don't think the helmet is the be all and end all of the protection power armour provides.
Really depends on how you model it, something that isn't really going to happen in the normal 40k rules. For example, an interpretation of power armour that was created in an attempt to merge RPG with the common interpretation of how such things work in the wargame (i.e. vulnerability to lasguns), can be found here (http://wiki.anargo-sector.net/index.php?title=Power_armour). In the same light, the amoutn of damage done by a 'bolt gun' is around 5d+2(10) (in the system that I use based upon the background diameter of the bolt). So, an average damage of 19(10). Against the armour necessary to be able to allow a lasgun through on a high average score, that means a Marine would take from the average bolter hit (19-(60/10)) or 13 points of damage. Ouch.

Of course, that's to make them vulnerable to lasguns. The original value of the armour was 100, so they would take around 9 damage on average, which is still horrendously high...

Unfortunately getting the "feel" of the wargame to work in RPG rules can be most difficult at times! ;) :rolleyes:


Chemical sniffers would be kwell, so they must be in their somewhere!
Because they would be really useful for... what?


Electronics? You mean self repairing bio-photonics surely?
Electronics, biological circuits... It really depends on your interpretation, Philip.


Such as?
It's always nice to have windows. Very feng-shui.


Perhaps the Mark 7 move this to the backpack to get it out of the way?
You can justify it however you want. Personally I'm not sold, but then again it was just a possibility.


I just don't see them breathing air form outside, outside is an open system, it's far too large a weakness.
Ahahaha. ;) That's funny! Well, at least if you go by the background.


It's much easier to have a closed system and use it all the time while on a mission.
If power armour is capable of full environmental support.


So what are autosense then?
An advantage, or a critical disadvantage if damaged. It doesn't help to tear off your helmet in the vacuum of space... although amusingly Marines can do that. :rolleyes:

Kage

Philip S
17-09-2006, 18:24
As above, I would suggest that a Marine can look through the eye slots if he so wants, i.e. there is a malfunction in the autosenses, their neural link or whatever. Redundancy is, in my mind, a byword of Imperial technology, and Marine power armour isn't going to be an exception.
Redundancy is handy unless it impairs the design to such a degree it fails in what it was designed to do in the first place, like, err, putting a windscreen in the front of a tank in case the little periscopes fail.

If the eyes are that damaged, then the can take the whole face plate off, because if the eye systems fail the chances are all the systems are failing linked to the head. It's time for the marine to leave the area.


Really depends on how you model it, something that isn't really going to happen in the normal 40k rules. For example, an interpretation of power armour that was created in an attempt to merge RPG with the common interpretation of how such things work in the wargame (i.e. vulnerability to lasguns), can be found here (http://wiki.anargo-sector.net/index.php?title=Power_armour). In the same light, the amoutn of damage done by a 'bolt gun' is around 5d+2(10) (in the system that I use based upon the background diameter of the bolt). So, an average damage of 19(10). Against the armour necessary to be able to allow a lasgun through on a high average score, that means a Marine would take from the average bolter hit (19-(60/10)) or 13 points of damage. Ouch.
I tend to resolve this by imagining that the marine is vulnerable like a tank is vulnerable to certain damage like a lost track or vent blockage. It not so much a lasgun penetrates the armour, but instead it destroys a hose, cooling intake or joint and the marines armour is then defective and becomes immobile. The marine is fine and still encased in their armour, just not moving about.

As such I see the T:4 W:1 as really being the suits stats and what it takes to immobilise the suit rather than what it takes to kill the marine.

Bit off a fudge.

Edit:

Because they would be really useful for... what?
Sniffing chemicals? Smelling alien smell sigs, tracking like a dog?


It's always nice to have windows. Very feng-shui.
Not in a tank it's not (is that a double negative?), err, in a tanks it's not!


If power armour is capable of full environmental support.
Floating about in space would suggest yes.


An advantage, or a critical disadvantage if damaged. It doesn't help to tear off your helmet in the vacuum of space...
Suit breach = death? Not pulling anything off.


although amusingly Marines can do that. :rolleyes:
Yeah! Go marines!!

Philip

Kage2020
17-09-2006, 18:57
If the eyes are that damaged, then the can take the whole face plate off...
Seems to me that all the power armour have eyes/eye visors. Ergo, they can look out of the handily provided windows. Seems reasonable, all things considered.


I tend to resolve this by imagining that the marine is vulnerable like a tank is vulnerable to certain damage like a lost track or vent blockage.
That was my original argument, but if Marines don't fall to lasgun vollies like in the wargame this was considered to be a bad thing. That link, as normal, needs to be revised but there we go. I'm waiting to get the Anargo website up and running before I do that.


Bit off a fudge.
40k fans are used to it.


Sniffing chemicals? Smelling alien smell sigs, tracking like a dog?
Because, when you have all those other sensor systems, one more draw on power and volume is your friend?


Not in a tank it's not (is that a double negative?), err, in a tanks it's not!
Thankfully it's not a tank.


Floating about in space would suggest yes.
There's a difference between the two, Philip.


Suit breach = death? Not pulling anything off.
Not really, based upon the background and their "vacuum protection" (all that mucranoid malarky).

Then again, I'm not for making Marines even more high-powered than they are already, or attributing them god-like abilities because of interpretation of the background.

Kage

Skrittiblak
17-09-2006, 19:11
Really depends on how you model it, something that isn't really going to happen in the normal 40k rules. For example, an interpretation of power armour that was created in an attempt to merge RPG with the common interpretation of how such things work in the wargame (i.e. vulnerability to lasguns), can be found here (http://wiki.anargo-sector.net/index.php?title=Power_armour). In the same light, the amoutn of damage done by a 'bolt gun' is around 5d+2(10) (in the system that I use based upon the background diameter of the bolt). So, an average damage of 19(10). Against the armour necessary to be able to allow a lasgun through on a high average score, that means a Marine would take from the average bolter hit (19-(60/10)) or 13 points of damage. Ouch.

I'm pretty familiar with the difficulties of converting 40k to an RPG (see link in sig). I'm also pretty familiar with GURPS so I have some understanding of the power level ascribed in the link you provided. (GURPS is a much better fit for 40k, I did a d20 conversion because I'm a big fan of the d20 Open Gaming philosophy. The rules are all available online for free - to me that is the attraction.)

Anyway the point is that in an RPG you can model such rules as 'targeting the head' but in a tabletop game you don't. This is speculation (because they are fictional units) but I've always assumed that head shots from a boltgun will be pretty incapacitating to a Marine with or without a helmet.

Helmets will provide protection against lesser attacks (melee for instance), shrapnel (as noted before) and provide defense against photon-flash flare, deafening explosions and other battlefield hazards.

We may have to agree to disagree but I don't think that a helmet is necessary for a Space Marine and I can understand why certain chapters (like the Space Wolves) are quite happy not wearing one.

Skrittiblak
17-09-2006, 19:24
I'm just reading over the Anargo Sector. I'm really impressed!

Kage2020
17-09-2006, 19:33
I'm also pretty familiar with GURPS so I have some understanding of the power level ascribed in the link you provided.
Indeed. I'll probably end up going back to the higher armour rating and be darned with Marines being immune to lasguns! After all, that's why you have heavier weapons, i.e. infantry support weapons.

Erm, anyway, that's a paralell. I used it merely as illustration that things can be modelled. It just depends on how you interpret things working. (If you ever fancy dropping by and lending a hand with the GURPS version, just let me know!)


I did a d20 conversion because I'm a big fan of the d20 Open Gaming philosophy. The rules are all available online for free - to me that is the attraction.)
It's always nice to have a free rules set. I've always enjoyed d20 games that I've played, though it would not be my system of choice as a GM. Such is the way of preference.


This is speculation (because they are fictional units) but I've always assumed that head shots from a boltgun will be pretty incapacitating to a Marine with or without a helmet.
Given the description of what a bolt round does? Oh yes, I would imagine so. If the bolt detonated, remembering that they're mass reactive (and as such sometimes don't go off), the amount of damage that they're going to do is quite horrendous. Unarmoured head, that is. Melon and shotgun imagery spring to mind! ;)


Helmets will provide protection against lesser attacks (melee for instance), shrapnel (as noted before) and provide defense against photon-flash flare, deafening explosions and other battlefield hazards.
It really depends on how much armour you throw up there.


We may have to agree to disagree but I don't think that a helmet is necessary for a Space Marine and I can understand why certain chapters (like the Space Wolves) are quite happy not wearing one.
That's fair enough. For me the helmet is a redundant set of controls, even though the primary means of control and systems representation is through direct neural interface. (This is a bit of hand-waving to explain the discprenacy in the background, since many of the authors find it problematic to get on the same page, which isn't surprising.)

Kage

Lancaster
17-09-2006, 19:50
I agree... Its just for basic heroism and theatrics
It's hard to associate heros and characters with faceless helmets...

*cough* Tau Commander *cough*

Personally I think it looks stupid to have exposed flesh on the model as a varient head. I never use the helmetless guys, and neither do most of my friends (In the starter set, I gave my seargent the beakie head :) )

It may look heroic and dramatic to some, but to me it looks sensless and cheesy.

However, for orks, guardsmen, wyches, etc... I think it's ok, because it is their uniform. To me, Tau (with the exception of Ethereals), Space Marine, Chaos, Eldar, Dark Eldar, and anyone else with a standard suit of armour it is just repulsive to include in the army.

Now, this is not to say I want other people to lop off the heads of their marines, but I am not modelling anything without a halmit anytime soon. (mostly a non-issue as I use Necron, and they don't have skin)

Kegluneq
17-09-2006, 21:40
Taking off the helmet is obviously not very sound tactically, but it does make a model look cooler. Strictly speaking it also serves to immediately identify a character in authority to other members of their squad, giving them a little more character than a basic helmet would allow. In the case of a Tau Fire Warrior, the helmet actually serves purposes other than basic protection, but otherwise you'd have literally no non-aun Tau faces in your army, which is a bit rubbish. If you've modelled a sniper it's perfectly acceptable to show them not wearing a helmet though.

Kage2020
17-09-2006, 22:36
if the "other members" of the squad cannot identify the squad leader through means other than the chappie taking their helmet off, there is far more to worry about other than merely seeing who is behind the helmet! :D

Kage

Sai-Lauren
18-09-2006, 09:16
Methinks that is mostly because it is unlikely that power armour has chemical sniffers incorporated into it. It's a tad too specialised, unlike passive electromagnetic sensors...

Chemical sniffers would be kwell, so they must be in their somewhere!
Philip, sometimes I wonder what universe you think 40k actually occurs in - virtually every time you come up with something it's closer to Star Trek.;)

That said, I do think the helmet has some chemical sensors in it - but for specific toxic chemical compounds (cyanides for example), and nothing else - there simply isn't the room to have any more.
A marine in his helmet could likely walk through a perfume factory and not pick up a single scent.

Potentially, an Auspex could be calibrated to a specific chemical signature, but suits would only have enough sensors for specific physiological threats.

Vision.
I'd go for eyepieces (armoured glass or equivalent, containing auto-reactive tinting chemicals), with an additional HUD projector - a solid state laser above the lenses generating an image on them - and one of the jobs of the chemicals in the glass is to eliminate the show through of the projector.
There would also be a small camera in the helmet, both to record telemetry for transmission to the command vehicle (all those screens in the Land Raider and Rhino that they "borrowed" from the APC in Aliens ;)) or for later review, and to supply images to the HUD systems for enhancement as an overlay into their vision if the marine needs it (e.g. the contrast enhancement in the opening chapters of the first HH novel).

Tau would have the camera-fed vision screens in the helmet.

Vents
There was some old SW fluff about a combat drop, where the suit detected Ragnar was in a vacumn, alerted him, sealed the neck joint so he couldn't take his helmet off, and went onto internal air systems. That by itself indicates to me that the suits do have external air vents (on the "beaky" lids, they're the three vertical slits on the beak ;)) - the suits only have so much power available, and running the life support systems at full to reprocess CO2 to O2 when you don't need to is going to take away power from other systems (or give you massive heat build up).

Vacumn suit breach would potentially be fatal, depending on where it was and how severe - a breach on a limb would likely be an inconvenience (the marine would suffer capillary damage which would seal itself off and eventual frostbite on the skin surface, but everything else would probably be fine), whilst if the respitory systems are breached, then even with the suit feeding oxygen into the bloodstream and muscular control allowing them to effectively hold their breath, they've got a very short time to get back to a pressurised environment before they vent all the oxygen from their blood out into their lungs and then into space.

Even a cracked eyepiece might only leave them reporting for an augmetic replacement, once the medics have scooped the mush out of the socket.;)

Philip S
18-09-2006, 10:18
Philip, sometimes I wonder what universe you think 40k actually occurs in - virtually every time you come up with something it's closer to Star Trek.;)
Cut to the quick.

:D


That said, I do think the helmet has some chemical sensors in it - but for specific toxic chemical compounds (cyanides for example), and nothing else - there simply isn't the room to have any more.
There's plenty of room!


Vision.
I'd go for eyepieces (armoured glass or equivalent, containing auto-reactive tinting chemicals)
Autosense are plumbed directly into the mind and bypass the wears own natural senses entirely (RT p121).

That's why most of the time it seems marine look through their own eyes, as looking through autosense is a 'transparent system' and feels like using normal eyes (though you can see better).

That may give the feel of old world helmet and ties into the 40K style, but pulling off such a system in reality would require hideously advanced technology way beyond anything we have today, but that's 40K tech all over.


with an additional HUD projector - a solid state laser above the lenses generating an image on them - and one of the jobs of the chemicals in the glass is to eliminate the show through of the projector.
Shriek! HIERATIC!

You said HUD! You said it! I heard you! *Wails*

OK, I'm with Rogue Trader on this; RT p267
'- a stage in history when those HUD and computers are about as innovative as stone circles'

HUD are Tau tech, not Imperium. The Imperium may look technologically backward, but it only looks that way


There would also be a small camera in the helmet, both to record telemetry for transmission to the command vehicle (all those screens in the Land Raider and Rhino that they "borrowed" from the APC in Aliens ;)) or for later review, and to supply images to the HUD systems for enhancement as an overlay into their vision if the marine needs it (e.g. the contrast enhancement in the opening chapters of the first HH novel).

Tau would have the camera-fed vision screens in the helmet.
Please stop, please :p

I think this actually sounds more mainstream sci-fi (star*) than what is in RT. I think the view of Technology in RT was very interesting, that technology can become so advanced and so transparent you just don't see it anymore.

As an example: For treating seriously injures an operating theatre using laser scalpels and robots looks impressive and hi-tec, whereas auto repair bio-nanites are invisible and to a layman looks like magic.

I would say the bio-nanites are far more advanced, yet they do not scream hi-tech.

I suppose it's like Old Money and New Money, the Imperium is Old Money and sometimes you just don't notice it's 'wealth' yet they have that rich feel, whereas the Tau are New Money and they look flash yet they feel superficial, unsophisticated and naïve (bless 'em)


Vents
and running the life support systems at full to reprocess CO2 to O2 when you don't need to is going to take away power from other systems (or give you massive heat build up).
Why? Reptiles process air and we don't suffer massive head build up (I used them because they are cold blooded so it isolates the air processing point), and if the reprocessing was with artificial biological systems it would (could) be low power?

Philip

Sai-Lauren
18-09-2006, 10:56
Cut to the quick.

:D


There's plenty of room!

Depends on how many sensors you want to put in, plus the wiring for all of them, programming for the suit to work out what the systems mean and so on.
And don't forget that all that room is mostly filled with armour, and what's not armour is probably filled with marine. Take those two elements out, and you're starting to run out of space very quickly indeed.

Basically, what would they have needed back when the suits were originally done - likely CO, CO2, toxins, and possibly combustable gases. Anything else is un-necessary and costly (the imperium does care about money, it's just got a lot of it).
Since then, new systems wouldn't have been added because of the tech-ignorance, refusal to update a "holy design" and so on.



Autosense are plumbed directly into the mind and bypass the wears own natural senses entirely (RT p121).

That's why most of the time it seems marine look through their own eyes, as looking through autosense is a 'transparent system' and feels like using normal eyes (though you can see better).

That may give the feel of old world helmet and ties into the 40K style, but pulling off such a system in reality would require hideously advanced technology way beyond anything we have today, but that's 40K tech all over.


Shriek! HIERATIC!

You said HUD! You said it! I heard you! *Wails*

OK, I'm with Rogue Trader on this; RT p267
'- a stage in history when those HUD and computers are about as innovative as stone circles'

HUD are Tau tech, not Imperium. The Imperium may look technologically backward, but it only looks that way

And other references have HUDs (including the SW one I mentioned).

Don't forget that you're not getting access to sight, hearing etc unless you start taking a drill to the skull. But the highest plug-in point is at the base of the neck (RT - exploded Mk6 suit). So there's no way for the suit to actually interface with the sensory functions.

Anyway, what is a HUD - a system to display information in someone's vision so they're not looking for vital information at crucial moments. Now, that could be on an eyeslit or a screen, projected onto the retina by an implant in their eyeballs, or piped directly into their visual cortex (you don't see with your eyes, you perceive with your mind ;)).




Please stop, please :p

I think this actually sounds more mainstream sci-fi (star*) than what is in RT. I think the view of Technology in RT was very interesting, that technology can become so advanced and so transparent you just don't see it anymore.

As an example: For treating seriously injures an operating theatre using laser scalpels and robots looks impressive and hi-tec, whereas auto repair bio-nanites are invisible and to a layman looks like magic.

I would say the bio-nanites are far more advanced, yet they do not scream hi-tech.

And the imperium has them?:eyebrows:

I guess that's where we differ, you're going ultra-tech with a low-tech feel. I'm going from low-tech (more robust, easier to maintain, and cheaper), with high-tech in small areas where it's the only way to do it.



I suppose it's like Old Money and New Money, the Imperium is Old Money and sometimes you just don't notice it's 'wealth' yet they have that rich feel, whereas the Tau are New Money and they look flash yet they feel superficial, unsophisticated and naïve (bless 'em)


Why? Reptiles process air and we don't suffer massive head build up (I used them because they are cold blooded so it isolates the air processing point), and if the reprocessing was with artificial biological systems it would (could) be low power?

Philip
We don't suffer massive heat build up because we radiate excess heat out(compared to other mammals, we're very good radiators because our relative lack of hair doesn't trap heat) - but vigorous excercise will lead to heat build up (and can lead to heatstroke - proteins denature, and you start getting into serious trouble). And every time you breath, the movement of the muscles in your chest and diaphram will generate heat - not much, but some. Breath harder, generate more heat.

The suit's power systems only produce so much power - most of which is going to be used to actually move the suit around. This will generate some heat, which will be radiated off or vented.
Of the rest, some will go on internal control systems and the essential life support systems (monitors, blood dialysis, and so on).

On internal air, the suit now has to supply additional power to crack the CO2 back into O2 - it could do this by robbing power from other systems (and it can't rely on being in zero-G for example to rob from the motor systems - it could be a high G world with an unbreathable atmosphere) - leaving the suit sluggish in combat, or it could go above 100% of normal power takeoff - which will generate more heat, exactly like the vigorous excercise.

(For an actual fluff version, look at the Mk4 suit - where the wearer had to choose between running the suits low powered but within temperature tolerances or high powered but suffering unbareable heat build up).

ABO's could be an answer, but would need their own support systems (power requirements again), and would likely be very slow - too slow certainly to support a marine in combat.

Philip S
18-09-2006, 11:42
Depends on how many sensors you want to put in, plus the wiring for all of them, programming for the suit to work out what the systems mean and so on.
Seeing as it's plumbed into their brain why not use the brain to process the info?


And other references have HUDs (including the SW one I mentioned).
*Growls*


Don't forget that you're not getting access to sight, hearing etc unless you start taking a drill to the skull. But the highest plug-in point is at the base of the neck (RT - exploded Mk6 suit). So there's no way for the suit to actually interface with the sensory functions.
Well that plug-in point stuff is prior to the black carapace. Having said that, even using the old background I could argue that those plugs are for suit movement functions.

The autosense could be on a different system, after all we can't see the inside of the helm in the diagram (RT p115) Also while talking about that diagram, if you look at the helm you will notice that there are no eye holes or mouth holes in the main helm structure and is completely enclosed.

Therefore the autosense interface can be inside that helm.


or piped directly into their visual cortex (you don't see with your eyes, you perceive with your mind ;)).
Yeah get the brain the process the autosense data, or perhaps one of those fancy electrographts!


And the imperium has them?:eyebrows:
Why not? Though to be honest bio-nanties would not be a cure all sci-fi would have them seem. The would be more like cholesterol munchers rather that tissue regeneration, or more like virus.


I guess that's where we differ, you're going ultra-tech with a low-tech feel. I'm going from low-tech (more robust, easier to maintain, and cheaper), with high-tech in small areas where it's the only way to do it.
Try getting into the warp with Victorian era tech! Or even our modern day tech (OK, that was unfair).

As it says it RT, the Imperium is super dupper high tech: 'far above and beyond anything we can image of perceive in the Twentieth Century'

So I may well be too low tech for 40K, or perhaps that should be for the Ad-Mec.


We don't suffer massive heat build up because we radiate excess heat out
Alligators suffer even less being cold blooded.

As for dumping heat the backpack with those massive spherical vents up top.

Philip

Kegluneq
18-09-2006, 12:02
if the "other members" of the squad cannot identify the squad leader through means other than the chappie taking their helmet off, there is far more to worry about other than merely seeing who is behind the helmet! :D

Kage
Rules of cool! Giving them a face makes them more of a character, and as such immune to headshots...

On the practical side, it also makes it easier for your opponent (the one across the table from you!) to tell which of your FWs/SMs is the actual team leader (without having to explain the differences between Tau symbols).

On the HUD side - I don't see anything wrong with SM helmets incorporating them. The various 'runes' described as flashing up must be shown somewhere, and not all Marines have ocular implants.

Sai-Lauren
18-09-2006, 12:33
Seeing as it's plumbed into their brain why not use the brain to process the info?

Sensory overload? And maybe only the suit needs to know so it can lock various seals in place to prevent leaks, whilst merely flashing up a subliminal warning that there's something nasty around.



Well that plug-in point stuff is prior to the black carapace. Having said that, even using the old background I could argue that those plugs are for suit movement functions.

I wouldn't even argue it - they link directly into the spinal cord, they are for suit movement.
And it's only prior by a couple of months at the most.



The autosense could be on a different system, after all we can't see the inside of the helm in the diagram (RT p115) Also while talking about that diagram, if you look at the helm you will notice that there are no eye holes or mouth holes in the main helm structure and is completely enclosed.

Therefore the autosense interface can be inside that helm.

Yeah get the brain the process the autosense data, or perhaps one of those fancy electrographts!

Except how does the helmet link in then? The backplate can slot onto the marine's spine, but the helmet would come down from on top - plus the link between the suits neck seals and the helmet would be difficult enough as is - think of the range of head movement, and now try running power cables, comms systems and internal sensor wiring through it in one go - basically, you can put stuff up against the spine and that's about it.
Also, in every single model and piece of art, there's no cranial plugs - unless the helmets stick little probes into the marines ears to connect up.:p

And the more stuff you leave for the wearer to do, the more distracted he's going to be (plus all the fluff references are things like "the suit tastes the air").


Why not? Though to be honest bio-nanties would not be a cure all sci-fi would have them seem. The would be more like cholesterol munchers rather that tissue regeneration, or more like virus.

Well, to start with they're dangerously close to AI and the Iron Men. Secondly, where's the prior art and associated technologies? Even if it's the only thing left of old tech, then there'll be other variations on it around - especially within the AM.



Try getting into the warp with Victorian era tech! Or even our modern day tech (OK, that was unfair).

As it says it RT, the Imperium is super dupper high tech: 'far above and beyond anything we can image of perceive in the Twentieth Century'

So I may well be too low tech for 40K, or perhaps that should be for the Ad-Mec.

So why do it's warriors try and hit their enemies over the head with their guns rather than shoot them? ;)

As I said, high tech where necessary - of course you won't get into the warp with steam power, but you can certainly turn and elevate gun turrets with it. Manpower won't generate the same amount of energy as a fusion plant, but how many crews are there at the other end of the ship loading the torpedoes?

And far too high-tech for us to imagine? Fusion plants are being developed as I write this (JET and ITER projects), MIU's and the power armour spinal links are just an advancement of the neural linking so beloved of Cyberpunk (and 40k is really simply a variation on the Steampunk genre), and current research into bionics, and The Warp/Warp Drive's yet another variation on hyperspace from every Sci-Fi series that's used it rather than FTL or Traveller 2300 AD Stutterwarp style drives (although Babylon Five's probably the closest to the warp, and that did come after).

Even some of a marine's enhacement's aren't too far off the realms of possibilities today.



Alligators suffer even less being cold blooded.

And you're missing my point - living organisms generate heat through their muscle movements. The more they move, the hotter they get.

Cold-blooded species do bask - although partly to maintain their temperature (else they'll suffer hypothermic effects), and partly to raise it enough to digest their food - proteins work best at between 30-38 Celcius (although any higher and they start to denature) and some cold-blooded species are large enough to actually maintain their body core temperatures.

An alligator that's basking will be absorbing heat, when it's swimming or taking prey it will be generating heat (and in the last case, almost certainly lots of it).

So anyway, what do heat absorbing cold blooded creatures have to do with a heat-genearating power supply?



As for dumping heat the backpack with those massive spherical vents up top.

Philip

Yes, but it will be designed to get rid of that heat at a certain maximum rate - above that, you will start to get heat build up - same as a car on a very hot day in a traffic jam (you know, where most people spend their bank holiday's :p ) simply can't shift enough heat through the radiator to maintain it's temperature.

Or to quote Michael Caine in "The Battle Of Britain" when they're waiting for the big raid they know's coming...


Either we stand down, or blow up:D

Philip S
18-09-2006, 12:56
Sensory overload? And maybe only the suit needs to know so it can lock various seals in place to prevent leaks, whilst merely flashing up a subliminal warning that there's something nasty around.
I was thinking the sensors cut out dangerous stimuli merely by the fact their output it limited to safe levels, as for the brain processing I was thinking more subconscious. The marine just knows the light was too bright event though it has be clipped, he smells the chemical, or rather the synthetic generated smell within reason (rancid body fat could smell like apples).



Also, in every single model and piece of art, there's no cranial plugs - unless the helmets stick little probes into the marines ears to connect up.:p
Quite a few bare headed marines have cranial plugs, and it's not often we see the back of a marines head.

(What about wireless? Not like we have it, perhaps something like sharks electrical sense, but very short range)


Well, to start with they're dangerously close to AI and the Iron Men. Secondly, where's the prior art and associated technologies? Even if it's the only thing left of old tech, then there'll be other variations on it around - especially within the AM.
Genetic re-engineering of a space marine?


So why do it's warriors try and hit their enemies over the head with their guns rather than shoot them? ;)
Good armour, doesn't use ammo, more killing (if we are talking about marines)


And far too high-tech for us to imagine?
It was a quote from RT.


And you're missing my point - living organisms generate heat through their muscle movements. The more they move, the hotter they get.
I was saying that muscle heat isn't as much as people think, I was using cold bodied as an example because it removes the extra heat generated by warm blooded animals.


So anyway, what do heat absorbing cold blooded creatures have to do with a heat-genearating power supply?
Because the suits neuro-fibre bundles may be a form of artificial biology that does not need to be kept warm to function and may generate little heat (near frictionless coatings), that the reprocessing technology may be quite cool, and that the power plant may use a form of conversion field technology and produce very little excess heat.

Philip

Shibboleth
18-09-2006, 13:14
So what are autosense then?
Autosenses are in the little compartments on the side of the helmet/jaw area.
The eyes are more like what Sai-Lauren was talking about although with miniature binocular type mechanisms. The marine can view through these directly with his own eyes, aswell as the other data and autosenses along with it.

Overall I see it as an enhancement to his natural vision, not a substitute for it.

Sai-Lauren
18-09-2006, 14:08
I was thinking the sensors cut out dangerous stimuli merely by the fact their output it limited to safe levels, as for the brain processing I was thinking more subconscious. The marine just knows the light was too bright event though it has be clipped, he smells the chemical, or rather the synthetic generated smell within reason (rancid body fat could smell like apples).

But it's still better a lot of the time to let the suit react on the marines behalf (automatically darkening the lenses on the helmet, lowering the volume on his external sound pickups and so on), to prevent him from being distracted at a point where he may want his full concentration somewhere else.

Anyway, if it's not specifically needed for combat, then chances are it won't be included in the suit - not necessary, too expensive, too much power required to run it, too much weight and something else to be maintained in the field.

Yep, that goes for your marine trying to clip his iPOD on his belt as well.:p



Quite a few bare headed marines have cranial plugs, and it's not often we see the back of a marines head.

Which marines? And yes we do see bare headed marines - that's part of what the thread was about originally ;)



(What about wireless? Not like we have it, perhaps something like sharks electrical sense, but very short range)

You know, I thought that somewhere along the line, you'd mention some thing like wireless, or bluetooth.

Congratulations, that marine: a) has an EM signature that makes him look like a christmas tree (unless you shield it, which means more weight, which means more power needed to move him), and b) has just been war-jacked by the nearest teenage script kiddie ;).

Passive sensing wouldn't work for what would almost certainly need to be a two way communications system.



Genetic re-engineering of a space marine?

Ah, but they aren't genetically engineered - common misconception about marines. What they actually get given is much closer to gene therapy.

Corax genetically engineered the Raven Guard - and we know how that turned out.



Good armour, doesn't use ammo, more killing (if we are talking about marines)

Anyone got that piece of fiction where a bunch of 40k marines get utterly slaughtered by a bunch of troopers from Dirtside? (That's war, at Ground Zero! :D )

A marine wouldn't get within half a mile of anyone if all they did was the gung-ho charge across open fields (and IMO, it's the biggest reason to remove AP from the game and return to ASM - getting marines to be intelligent again and start hugging the walls).



It was a quote from RT.

I know, and I was pointing out how ludicrious it is.



I was saying that muscle heat isn't as much as people think, I was using cold bodied as an example because it removes the extra heat generated by warm blooded animals.

ATP conversion to ADP is about 12 kCalories/mole of ATP - or about 12,000 joules.

Now, I know that's not all at one time (there's only about 0.1 of a mole of ATP in the body, and we need about 200 moles a day), but that's still a lot of energy, and any guesses how much of that is turned into heat?

IMO - a lot.



Because the suits neuro-fibre bundles may be a form of artificial biology that does not need to be kept warm to function and may generate little heat (near frictionless coatings), that the reprocessing technology may be quite cool, and that the power plant may use a form of conversion field technology and produce very little excess heat.

Philip

Oh, I'll agree with you there. The suits could be very low heat generators (and would make sense on an IR detection basis).

But, if they are, then the heat dissapation systems will be keyed to that level of heat, not over engineered to be able to handle more. So, adding the CO2 recyclers into the mix WILL raise the temperature, or reduce the power levels of other systems in the suit.

And marines themselves, through their body mass and increased metabolisms are probably running body core temperatures close to what the proteins in their bodies can stand before becoming useless - and cooping them up in their armour isn't going to help matters.

Philip S
18-09-2006, 14:50
But it's still better a lot of the time to let the suit react on the marines behalf (automatically darkening the lenses on the helmet, lowering the volume on his external sound pickups and so on), to prevent him from being distracted at a point where he may want his full concentration somewhere else.
In a round about way that is what the system in RT is doing with some added advantages; The field of vision is form the sensor not the eye, so the marine is not looking through a hole but from the surface of the sensor, so do a marine it is as if he is not wearing a helmet.

As for processing, I figure that instead of darkening the whole lens, and hence the whole image it removes the brighter values from the information passed onto the mind (Like 32bit HDRI to 8bitLDRI) In this way all that happens is that the bright point is still bright but doesn't detract in the slightest, though the marine may 'feel' the light is excessively bright it wouldn't bother him.

The same goes for sound, the sensor filters the sound and removes excessive spikes. Particular noise sigs may be passed on as feelings, in the way people think they can feel a ghostly presence so a marine can feel the presence of a Tau via noise, visual info and smell even if these are too small to really notice. A kinda artificial sixth sense.


Which marines? And yes we do see bare headed marines - that's part of what the thread was about originally ;)
The ones with little wires stuck in there head, which is like, all of them. Look through the marine 'dex all the bare headed marines have wires in their head.


You know, I thought that somewhere along the line, you'd mention some thing like wireless, or bluetooth.

Congratulations, that marine: a) has an EM signature that makes him look like a christmas tree (unless you shield it, which means more weight, which means more power needed to move him), and b) has just been war-jacked by the nearest teenage script kiddie ;).

Passive sensing wouldn't work for what would almost certainly need to be a two way communications system.
Not quite what I had in mind, more low level powerfield harmonics for transmission. As such very shot range and controlled with no leak. Very unlike modern wireless systems.

Personally I would go for wires. That ridge in the centre of the helm will do. The wires don't have to be thick, and if bio-photonic the transmission cable would be as thin as a hair and can be embedded into the armour lining.


Ah, but they aren't genetically engineered - common misconception about marines. What they actually get given is much closer to gene therapy.
Genetically re-engineered, and while there do have the gene seed there is a re-engineering bit prior to implants, often via liquid intake.


A marine wouldn't get within half a mile of anyone if all they did was the gung-ho charge across open fields (and IMO, it's the biggest reason to remove AP from the game and return to ASM - getting marines to be intelligent again and start hugging the walls).
Different visions, for me, I would never use a marine in the open unless they had full photon/ thermal camouflage. At the very least some fancy photo-active paint.

To me marine are building stormers and drop pod into the middle of mayhem type troops.


ATP conversion to ADP is about 12 kCalories/mole of ATP - or about 12,000 joules.

Now, I know that's not all at one time (there's only about 0.1 of a mole of ATP in the body, and we need about 200 moles a day), but that's still a lot of energy, and any guesses how much of that is turned into heat?

IMO - a lot.
Overall the complete cycle is about 40+% efficient.


Oh, I'll agree with you there. The suits could be very low heat generators (and would make sense on an IR detection basis).

But, if they are, then the heat dissapation systems will be keyed to that level of heat, not over engineered to be able to handle more.
Off course they would! The marine has to function in many environments, as super harsh deserts is one of those environments. The marine has to be keep at an even body temp in the most extreme of conditions. I would imagine the system can dump heat exceptionally well.


And marines themselves, through their body mass and increased metabolisms are probably running body core temperatures close to what the proteins in their bodies can stand before becoming useless - and cooping them up in their armour isn't going to help matters.
All the more reason to keep them kwell! Er, cool.

Philip

Skrittiblak
18-09-2006, 15:47
*cough* Tau Commander *cough*

Personally I think it looks stupid to have exposed flesh on the model as a varient head. I never use the helmetless guys, and neither do most of my friends (In the starter set, I gave my seargent the beakie head :) )

It may look heroic and dramatic to some, but to me it looks sensless and cheesy.

I can't understand why you all think it's so safe to walk around in a helmet. No one's ever been capped in the head with a boltgun before obviously. I maintain that the helmet isn't the part of the armour thats saving the highest % of Space Marine lives.