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View Full Version : Do you think psychology needs to be reconsidered?



xibo
05-09-2006, 14:54
Considering the fact that 80% of the armies out there are Space Marines, and space marines are immune to psychologic effects, do you think psychology needs to become more important? Also CSM and Necrons can be considered as next to unbreakable ld-wise, and Tau and IG also have their ways to sidestep most psychologic effect.
At the local GW i seldomly can see someone doing a target priority check, because it's obvious one will not fail a ld10 rerollable check...

mooserehab86
05-09-2006, 15:18
I don't think it needs to be changed. Morale/psychology affects all the armies (except marines and others that are immune to it) as it should. The fact that the most widely used army is marines does not provide a good reason to change the rules. Rules should be based on the individual armies themselves, with the mindset that in an ideal gaming community, a wide variety of armies are being used. Marine players benefit from the fact that they are immune to many forms of psychology, while guard players have to accept it when designing their armies.

Doomclaw
05-09-2006, 15:20
I would actually like to see the full array of psychological effects, but first I would like it if it was actually possible to have space marine units and such run off, that and they shall know no fear combined with ld 10 makes them almost fearless, and I think that almost nothing would be fearless. Even gaunts still have the instinct to run away, even when under control of the hive mind.

Baneboss
05-09-2006, 15:44
Simple: yes. Maybe not terror but at least fear.

Isambard
05-09-2006, 15:46
I would go with a blast marker system, as units accrue markers their effectiveness and Ld goes down, at a variable rate depending on the troop type.

insectum7
05-09-2006, 15:52
Who says marines are immune to psychology? last I checked we failed pinning and morale tests like most other races. The ATSKNF rule is pretty good, but it aint what it used to be. The Chaos armies I see are more immune to psychology, them and Orks and Tyranids actually. Necrons are one of the few races that get no benefit to their Ld, though its a ten, so they are on the weaker side in my book.

As for wanting more Psychology, tough call really. I think it might be nice to see something in between 'unaffected' and 'pinning/breaking'. To what end I'm not sure, but there seems to be room for a middle ground. That being said, I'm pretty cool with where things are too. So many armies have bonusses or what not to their tests that if anything changed it would probably only seriously affect a few armies, which is kinda uncool.

William McCoy
05-09-2006, 15:54
I don't think it needs to be changed. Morale/psychology affects all the armies (except marines and others that are immune to it) as it should.

Sorry...I just found that quote, and the idea that it affects every army expect for the ones that it doesn't, funny as all get out.

Anyway, on with contributing. I like how it stands now, that on average its just a minor inconvience...but with the right planning, it becomes a major tactical advantage. Two cases in point: Pariah-Flayed Ones-Deceiver combo and Fear of the Darkness in general. Other things to keep in mind are a few of the One-Two's in the WH codex, like Purgatus and Hammer of the Witches.

I think it's a nice thing, really, that it can be exploited or pushed aside, but never fully ignored. And, just for the record, anyone who's ever had a bad day will be able to tell you exactly how possible it is to fail a test on Ld10 with a reroll. :skull:


---Slim

insectum7
05-09-2006, 15:55
Simple: yes. Maybe not terror but at least fear.

Theres that 'terrifying visage' rule for some chaos units and it's pretty effective.

The Orange
05-09-2006, 16:16
The psychology effects are fine IMO. GW needs to stop slapping LD10 or Fearless on everything, thats all. And woulden't you know it, I have to square off against Necrons (LD10) and SOB regularly (LD10 + the ability to make untis fearless with Faith points) . Because those abilites are so prevelant the changes they made in 4th edition to make psychology effects more important did little to affect those armies with such strong LD. I don't mind my army being hindered a bit because of it, it makes the army more characterful and challenging, but I just wish my opponints had to face those kind of problems to some degree, instead of just being able to pretty much ignore it.

As a Tau player I can tell you from experience that Tau actually do have a weak LD compared to other armies, our ability to "sidestep" it was severly nerfed with the new codex, besides their's no way for us to "reroll" a TP check (I don't think anyone can). Let's see how you like seeing your troops spend 5 of 6 turns shooting at a stupid Land Raider :cries: , having your kroot sweeping advanced by one Marine, or your single-suit Crisis Team run off the board due to some Witch Hunters psychic attack (at least it can still shoot at full range though :evilgrin: ).

mooserehab86
05-09-2006, 16:29
Sorry...I just found that quote, and the idea that it affects every army expect for the ones that it doesn't, funny as all get out.

I suppose I could have worded that a little better.:p

What I meant was, marines as well as a few armies that have some special rules/abilities may not be affected very often by psychology. The majority of armies though, in my experience, suffer from failed morale tests quite often, and the controlling player has to plan for such things. I have seen a failed target priority test ruin someone's plans more than once, and things like Fear of the Darkness can cause an entire battle line to fall apart, especially if used against things like guard and eldar. Even small things, like units fleeing due to tank shock, have happened several times in my gaming group. While it may provide some more variety if other things like Fear and Terror were added to the rules, I think the current set is fine.

10th clancannach rangers
05-09-2006, 16:33
I think it is silly that CSMs with any of the 4 marks of the gods are fearless, and if you buy undivided they get to re-roll leadership.

lord_blackfang
05-09-2006, 16:36
A little bit more Psychology would be nice. Even just reducing Ld by a point for armies that are now Ld9-10 would be an improvement. Fear/Terror would be nice too.

Cosmic_Girl
05-09-2006, 16:37
Hi,

Psychology needs to exist again, let alone be reconsidered. Morale checks, pinning and broken units are basically it. Bring back terror, fear, initiative tests, resistence etc... The game can only benefit from more depth.

C-girl.

Kahadras
05-09-2006, 16:42
I think fearless needs to be scaled back a bit. Thousand sons should get it (as they are already dead) and Grey Knights (because they're that nails). At a push I'd say Word bearers as well due to their religious nutters theme.

Kahadras

Vemetric
05-09-2006, 16:46
I find with the size of the average game unfortunately rising consistantly, the more you add psychological effects, the more the game bogs down. This is especially true of armies with massed infantry that aren't in mob-sized squads (I.E. Imperial Guard, a personal specialty). I already have to make an ungodly amount of leadership tests between pinning and morale checks, having to make even more modified checks would make my infantry heavy army near unplayable.

I think that if more psychology is added to the game you will see even *more* players turning to the high LD armies, not the other way around. Who wants to play Imperial Guard, Eldar or Tau when every turn you have to make 4-8 checks based on one of your worst stats?

On a bad day, I watched as by turn two over 3/4ths of my army was fleeing or pinned against chaos forces. I fear that this would become the norm should psychology become "more important".


Vemetric

Cheesehead
05-09-2006, 16:48
every single beakie is immune to psychology? Its a huge advantage over all the other races.

But I should expect nothing less for the omniscient beakies.

Drogmir
05-09-2006, 17:09
Well necrons should be fearless since they cannot experiance death. What should they be afraid of?

Drogmir
05-09-2006, 17:10
The possiblity that the will shut down for one battle?

Wraithbored
05-09-2006, 17:15
@Drogmir: Well to a Necron warp weaponry and psychic powers are a terrifying thing for one and they can't always selfrepair.

OT: Yes psychology definitely needs more stage time, and the liberal sprinkling of fearless or otherwise immune to psychology effects*cough*ATSKNF*cough* by GW didn't help much.

roadkizzle
05-09-2006, 18:03
I firmly believe that psychology needs to be relooked at. Whether this be revising what it does, or even just going through and relooking at the leadership values and special rules given for each army. For instance, I don't think that all CSM's should be fearless, or near to it. I think that if they allowed the morale and psychology play a larger role, then certain armies could unlock entirely new playstyles, and it would basically bring a whole new depth and dimension to the game. For instance, they have quite a few Dark Eldar weapons and abilities that are targetted to breaking units morale, but, when more than half of all races are either unbreakable, or leadership 10 and stubborn, there is no use for any of those abilities.

Another thing that would be interesting is to have the CSM slannesh armies working more like the fantasy ones, where they are focused on manipulating the enemies, as in distracting them, with illusions and all other manner of fun stuff.

On the other hand, I think that there would be other armies that would be good working the other way. While, Dark Eldar works on breaking units and using terror tactics, and slaanesh works on illusions and psychological manipulation, Witch Hunters for instance, would have many abilities that bolstered their, and allied armies morale, and helped protect more against psychological attacks.

Drogmir
05-09-2006, 18:06
@Drogmir: Well to a Necron warp weaponry and psychic powers are a terrifying thing for one and they can't always selfrepair.

OT: Yes psychology definitely needs more stage time, and the liberal sprinkling of fearless or otherwise immune to psychology effects*cough*ATSKNF*cough* by GW didn't help much.

But they have no emotions they are controlled by the whims of the C'tan they are being marched foward because they have no free thought. It's like the borg from star trek

paddyalexander
05-09-2006, 18:23
The current trend with most armies that have gotten new codices is to give them some ability that makes them less effected by psychology. Space Marines have the Commanders' ld rule, 'Nids have synapse, Tau have the Commanders TP ld (wargear) & the ability to use markerlights to bypass TP.

ATSKNF dosn't make Marines immune to psychology, it just means that they recover from the effects automaticly. Marines can be pinned & made fall back. They just always regoup next turn.

The rules were streamlined in the 3rd & 4th edition to allow quicker games. I'd like to see modifiers to weapon or balistic skills once a unit drops below a certain number.

Or make the Ld modifications more harsh - -1 for 75%, -2 for 50% -3 for 25% starting strength. This would make a unit more likely to break.

GW has this thing for releasing a ruleset that makes an aspect of the armies (in this case Ld) more inportant and then nullifying those rule changes with newer rules for armies.

Chaos and Evil
05-09-2006, 18:58
The 40k rules don't really represent any kind of psychology effects, and most armies have ways of sidestepping what few rules do exist.

Basically, it would need a redesign of the whole rulebook along the lines of Warhammer Fantasy, giving models Fear, Terror, panic checks etc.


Until then, 40k will remain a psychology-free zone.

Scythe
06-09-2006, 10:33
Psychology is fine enough, with morale, pinning and target priority. What needs work is the crazy amount of Ld10 with reroll/fearless armies out there. The basic leadership of a human is 7, however practically everything seems to be testing on 10, which is not the way it should be. Bring down leadership to manageable levels, and don't throw all those rerolls and fearless rules around like candy.