PDA

View Full Version : Magic-less games



Xisor
23-06-2005, 23:00
I had an odd thought a wee while ago.

Has anyone tried playing games centred on 'no magic users'? I know this means that armies like CV and TK effectively can't play in such games, but the idea of Bret/Empire OG/Dwarfs fights is quite appealing to me. Not for *every* game, but how enjoyable have people found games where no magic occurs? Is it simply a refreshing change as opposed to a 'wayhey what a game!', or is there something deeper and more spiritual about it all :p ?

It's simply an odd though, as I say. Any anecdotes?

Xisor

User Name
24-06-2005, 00:04
The most magic I have ever used is a lvl 2 scroll caddy at 2000 points, I still find hte games to be quite enjoyable, not spending loads of points on magic means you can have a brutal shooting or combat phase.

Lordmonkey
24-06-2005, 00:50
I'm a von carstein VC player, but the idea of fielding an army led by a vampire thrall is VERY appealing. I really don't like magic that much, and I tend to play border patrol whenever I can (the rules allowing me to field a vampire thrall as the general). I think one lvl 2 mage can be alright... when you exceed 2 levels for every 1000pts magic becomes t3h gh3y.

I agree - WH without magic is more refreshing than Linda Barker without makeup/life-extending surgery, and it's a shame that the game has degenerated (yeah, I said it!) into a battle of "who can field the most magic levels at a time".

I really enjoy non-magic games of warhammer :)

Frankly
24-06-2005, 02:11
I'm a von carstein VC player, but the idea of fielding an army led by a vampire thrall is VERY appealing.

Thats how I've been playing, its lots and lots of fun.


I see the major problem is in scroll caddies and magic defense. I usually play aarmylists with very little to no magic(even V.C. ;) ), its mainly because I prefer troop choices over spending point on characters.

This draws me to armies that automatic anti-magic, for example khorne, cult of ulric, even some types of L.M.

Grumnir
24-06-2005, 02:39
We often play without magic --> by agreement beforehand though.

In fact we've been doing so for some editions --> shifts the focus to the battle part of W.H.F.BATTLE ;)

Lordmonkey
24-06-2005, 03:22
In fact we've been doing so for some editions --> shifts the focus to the battle part of W.H.F.BATTLE ;)

Aye, often i'll pop down to the local GW storea nd say "hey, anyone fancy a game of Magichammer?" To which someone will go "yeah ok, ill just grab my Skaven arm... huh?" as they watch me waltz right out the door, grinning ;)

Minotower
24-06-2005, 09:40
I think that you can contain enemy magic by spending only half the points on magic defence. Of course you will have the occasional magic missile coming in, but you have more troops, so this won't be so much of a problem. And nothing is more fun than a good mage hunt, some armies have really good troops for this.

Crube
24-06-2005, 10:09
I agree to a degree. I do have a Tzeencth WFB army, cos its funny when your 500 point sorceror lord turns into a gibbering Chaos Spawn, the same turn as your other lvl 2 sorceror flees off the table with a unit of Knights...

But also enjoy playing magic lite games with my Empire. Depends what mood I'm in really. I like both.

Darmort
24-06-2005, 10:22
Personally, I don't play with Magic Users unless I need too. Against Magic Heavy Von Carsteins, though.... I think that having more than 6 Levels of Magic in 2K is over kill, and more than two Magic Users is definitely over kill.

One tip for Vampire Count Players, just have a Count without upgraded Magic. Tomb Blade might be useful for that. I found it helped my friend in two battles out of three, the third it didn't reach combat (I blasted it with Cannon).

JackInTheGreen
24-06-2005, 11:02
I got 80 battle points at Heat 2 last year, with a Slaanesh mortal army. I had a lvl 1 caddie and Book of Secrets as my only magic defense.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
24-06-2005, 16:03
Considering that the magic phase is in need of some serious reworking for 7th Edition, I find the thought of playing without magic to be very appealing. Magic often makes or breaks games in Fantasy, but not in a good way. Its an all or nothing design, which leads to min-maxing.

the_night_reaper
25-06-2005, 17:03
I think the magic phase is fine. I really like to use magic in games, I only use 1 or 2 level 2 mages in a game because I think that magic really gives the game a sort of...randomness. Mostly because you don't know what spell you're going to get.

fubukii
25-06-2005, 20:35
so much hate on my 14 power dice :(

Lordmonkey
26-06-2005, 00:50
so much hate on my 14 power dice :(

*throws hate in fubukii's general direction*

Just kidding ;)

Frankly
26-06-2005, 06:36
Personally I find it get a bit on the bored side with a magic heavy list, both my undead and Southlands can get up to rack up 14P.dice a piece. Sitting there rolling a bucket full of dice is fun for the first few games, but I loss the taste for it pretty quickly...

... but I'll never loose the need for speed and mobility in my lists. :evilgrin:

fubukii
26-06-2005, 07:49
well if you think about it, everything really involves rolling dice so what does it matter what phase your dice rolling is in :)

I just wanted to be different so i started a All necromancer vc list, which around here is rare. Heck vc in general isnt played much around where i am its mostly lizardmen and chaos heh

Tormentor of Slaanesh
26-06-2005, 15:14
well, tournament armies need a caddy just in case. if u use tournament armies then u have to use magic. unless u rely on magic, eg. vc's, u can get away with virtually ne magic

Frankly
27-06-2005, 05:54
well if you think about it, everything really involves rolling dice so what does it matter what phase your dice rolling is in :)



:)

Sorry if you thought my comments were directed at you. Your right though .... accept for the movement phase offcourse.

Moonset
27-06-2005, 11:23
I'm like alot of you guys I'm more interested in defeating the other army in via tactics via close combat/shooting rather than fragging him with magic missiles or engulfing him in flames (although I make it sound like fun don't I...?;) That's where the old Khorne chaos army comes in - with a mix of magic resistence and additional dispel dice, magic hardly ever touches my army, effectively nuetralising it as an aspect of the game.

Other than that my other armies are geared more towards magic defence than magic attack.

that's just the way i prefer it - I like units rather than heroes and want to fight big battles rather than duels between superbeings - whatever floats your boat ;)

Darmort
27-06-2005, 19:06
Battles are won by Might of Arm, not Might of Mind, except when it comes to tactics. ;)


Take that, and then think; Is Magic really all that good? No. It sucks when you have 10+ Power Dice (unless in 4K or more!), and it's rubbish unless you hurt things anyway. With the number of Scroll Caddies now a days...

fubukii
27-06-2005, 19:42
you dont need to hurt things to have magic be effective for certain armies. Vampire counts for example your units may have magic resistance but other then gaze of nagash and curse of years they dont even need to cast on you. Their best 2 spells Invcation and vanhels dont target your units :)

Grand Warlord
30-06-2005, 04:28
I only field warrior priests for the extra magic dice and its never really hampered me.

made_of_metal
30-06-2005, 06:13
I like the idea of no magic. heck even no magic items could be fun (but really good for some like chaos, ogres and lizards. try taking on those lords then!) I do miss the days when 6th ed came out and most people would just take 2 lvl2's. I think that is what the system was designed with in mind.

mind you i do have a soft spot for magic sometimes. big floating frogs just look cool. and he is great for finishing off those little units so my plan can unfold. but even then i only go 9pd and a 4th gen slann.

Frankly
30-06-2005, 09:39
Does anyone take more than one scroll caddie. In tournaments around my area alot of armylists have 4 dispel scroll hanging around in it, I especially see this is infantry armies that have to weather alot of magic before they get into combat.

Has anyone noticed this around there neck of the woods.

Bortus
06-07-2005, 17:35
A game without magic? Heck, everytime I play my Empire army against my friends Tzeentch or his Khorne army I playing a magicless game! How many spells can a poor ole Empire wizard get off against that!? Ha,ha!!! Actually most of the games I have played are relatively magic free but I really get a kick out of my Gobbo army and the trouble they can get into with magic. Magic isn't something you can rely on every game but it adds that extra bit of fun that other table top games don't have like those Napoleonic type games. Personally unless I go all out on magic I usually only take caddies for protection and that's about it.

nurgle_boy
06-07-2005, 18:40
i generrally split my armies. 500pts, its a fighting hero, 1000, i have one of each, 1500 i have 1 fighting, 1 bsb, and one magic, and 2k, i have 2 magic, 2 fighting, one of the fighting is the lord.

i like magic with my orcs, not so much for the effects, but for the fun miscasts.

well, some of the effects are fun, but i prefer the little waaaaagh as i find that for a savage orc army, some of the big waaaaagh spells are slightly rubbish, only waaaagh would have a good efect.

Crazy Harborc
06-07-2005, 18:59
Over the last three years agrowing number of opponents have said yes to no magic casters or bound spells. Not just rarely but often. These days, the opponents suggest it more than I do. :)

IMHO, opponents who aren't restricted (for whatever reasons) to just one army choice, who tend to play for reasons beyond "beating somebody at something", who want some f.u.n., all seem to enjoy skipping the wizards and spells. Heck some opponents are happy to leave out ANY magic items.

WHFB 6th Edition rules are good without magic being in the game :D It's true and I love it that way!! Many of my opponents are not GW only gameplayers. I do try to do my part to encourage that too. :p

Tarion
06-07-2005, 19:10
It sounds fun. On the other hand, i love magic too much.

My Wood Elf force is going to be Magic-light though.

Crazy Harborc
08-07-2005, 01:32
Games are also faster. No 5 to 10 minutes of magic thinking and casting/dispel attempts per player per turn of the game.

Kensai X
08-07-2005, 06:00
I've hated the magic phase ever sense I went against a Khorne army with a whole bunch of DoW Wizards and blasted the crap out of me by converting his excess of dispel dice into power dice....

It was brutal and has been placed on my top ten unfluffiest/cheesiest armies ever!!

User Name
08-07-2005, 06:36
With DoW wizards how did he convert his DD into PD?

Lordmonkey
09-07-2005, 00:34
I've hated the magic phase ever sense I went against a Khorne army with a whole bunch of DoW Wizards and blasted the crap out of me by converting his excess of dispel dice into power dice....

It was brutal and has been placed on my top ten unfluffiest/cheesiest armies ever!!

Huh? How did that happen!?

Kensai X
09-07-2005, 03:08
The Truthsayer from Albion or whatever comes with one of those staff thangs...

Ganymede
09-07-2005, 03:31
Normally I field around seven levels of magic and one bound item. It is certainly up there, but I wouldn't consider that exactly overpowering magic. One of my wizards can't even cast any spells on his own.

FlameKnight
09-07-2005, 08:38
HA! Went up against a tzeench chaos army today, expecting it to be a khorne army. He had 13 power dice. He hid all of his units behind a (conveniently placed) hill, flanked me with a dragon and chosen knights. He got about 2000 victory points, I got 0! ARGH. I had four dispel dice and two scrolls, I used the scrolls on turn one, and my dice were never enough to stop the spells.

That was the worst defeat I've ever had, and there wasn't a whole lot that I could do to stop him :\

fubukii
09-07-2005, 08:53
a dragon and chaos knights that must of been over 50% of his army right there.

Hal
09-07-2005, 10:11
We usually play games of 2 wizards, 6PD, in 2000 points. The exeption is the local Tzeenchtian (sp?) 13 PD'er, but he's easy enough to neutralise with 6 dice and 4 scrolls. :evilgrin:

We find that 2 wizards in 2k makes magic a good balance - 2, maybe three spells per phase each, and they have to be tactically targeted.

I wouldn't mind high-PD armies if they weren't geatly magic missile orintated. A 16 PD VC army, for example, is fine. One that uses Lore of beasts or Shadow is fine. One that has Tzeentch magic and one or two MM's per caster gets annoying. They don't tactically target - they tac nuke. Fire and forget, mobile artillery armies are the only real magic armies that annoy me.

However, all that aside (and to answer the topic's question), No-magic battles are rather refreshing. The delicate dance of melee positioning, desperate maneuvering as we turn to face a charge, tactical setups for use in turn 5..... instead of moving my wizard and rolling dice. Repeat ad naeseum.

I know which type I prefer!

~Hal|WWI trench war or WHFBattlefield? You decide!~

Ganymede
09-07-2005, 18:17
I wouldn't mind high-PD armies if they weren't geatly magic missile orintated. A 16 PD VC army, for example, is fine.

I would crap my britches if I saw that force bearing down on me.

Lordmonkey
10-07-2005, 00:32
I wouldn't mind high-PD armies if they weren't geatly magic missile orintated. A 16 PD VC army, for example, is fine.
An army like this would double in size in a few turns!!!

Frankly
10-07-2005, 06:42
Worst magic/shooty army out there I've ever faced was/is my mates empire army. There's nothing like being able to back up 10 levels of magic with 40 to 60 handgunners and sniper rifles + either 6 cannons or 4 cannons and 2 hell blasters. Then he's got inner circle cavalry"counter attack"units.

Delicious Soy
10-07-2005, 06:56
I like the magic of my TK. I take two Liche Priests in 2000pts. I always view magic as an auxiliary element in my army in the same way I regard ranged weaponry, it's use is to get my unit units into a favourable position and soften up the enemy a bit.

Tarion
10-07-2005, 07:38
TK magic isn't a real problem. It doesn't absolutely crush the opponent. It's more of a way to make your troops good. Or at least, that's my experience of it.

Lordmonkey
10-07-2005, 23:05
Worst magic/shooty army out there I've ever faced was/is my mates empire army. There's nothing like being able to back up 10 levels of magic with 40 to 60 handgunners and sniper rifles + either 6 cannons or 4 cannons and 2 hell blasters. Then he's got inner circle cavalry"counter attack"units.

laughable. Take your flyers and get behind his lines. Charge his handgunners in the rear so he cant stand and shoot, or pick on war machines...

You DO have some flyers... dont you?

Rhamag
11-07-2005, 00:47
I play TK and I've never had much luck when I've gone magic-light in my list.

Now I take a High Priest, 2 Priests & a Prince at 2000 pts - 9 levels (inc. TP), 11 power dice, 5 incantations, 6 dispell dice. Chuck in 2 bound items and all looks rosy...

Except vs. Elves, who regularly out-magic me.

Frankly
11-07-2005, 05:50
laughable. Take your flyers and get behind his lines. Charge his handgunners in the rear so he cant stand and shoot, or pick on war machines...

You DO have some flyers... dont you?

LOL!

I'm sitting here looking at my 20 fell bats ... yes, I've got flyers.

Do you really think an army like that is going to let a few flyers bother it, if you way playing an armylist like that would you? If you split you battleline against so much fire power, it just means he can shoot/magic your units down in ways.

His target selection:12 P.dice of Fire lore Magic + two hell blasters = Flyers ;)

Honestly it's one of the most well oiled armies I get to play against(luckily its once in a blue moon, he usually plays alot more balanced), although its cheezy as hell, its kinda fun to watch all those cannons and gunners set up and try to run it down.

Frankly
11-07-2005, 05:56
I play TK and I've never had much luck when I've gone magic-light in my list.

Now I take a High Priest, 2 Priests & a Prince at 2000 pts - 9 levels (inc. TP), 11 power dice, 5 incantations, 6 dispell dice. Chuck in 2 bound items and all looks rosy...

Except vs. Elves, who regularly out-magic me.

Yeah, I've found it almost impossible to play without a decent amount of magic in my T.K. army although I haven't played it much.

I wonder if its easier for all cavalry type T.K. armylists.

Pravus
11-07-2005, 16:08
Worst magic/shooty army out there I've ever faced was/is my mates empire army. There's nothing like being able to back up 10 levels of magic with 40 to 60 handgunners and sniper rifles + either 6 cannons or 4 cannons and 2 hell blasters. Then he's got inner circle cavalry"counter attack"units.
I've seen similar Empire armies - all deploy 1" from their board edge and blast away. There's no "behind" to reach, flyers or not.

As for magic - I include 2 level 2s with the lore of slaanesh as an integral part of my strategy and tactics. Like the lore of shadows, it is a much underestimated lore because it hasn't got long range tw*tting power but it has significant tactical applications. As an aside, I'm not overly keen on elite troops - the bulk of my army is marauders and beastherds; a proper "horde of chaos". As such, a bit of magic adds an appropriate dash of spice to the mix.

Crazy Harborc
12-07-2005, 01:11
I count myself lucky. None of my regular long time opponents "always" push VC armies. In fact, I was the last one to use undead (more than a year ago).

My gaming against VC was two VC armies in a winter to spring campaign at the GW store. They are both in the summer Lustra campaign. 1000 points each to start, both players had two magic casters, at least 6 power dice AND 5 dispel dice........Oh no cheese there!! Oh, you want to use "our tables" on Tuesday night.........well, you "must" join the campaign league. Funny how that was WHFB open gaming night.........not anymore.