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View Full Version : Move it Ladz!!: Orks and Game balance



kaptin_blacksquigg
06-09-2006, 15:05
Hey all thought I'd get this off my chest and see what you all think.

The Ork codex is great, a bit old and need some new units (to give more of the horde of allsorts of things feel) but full of solid units and character. The probelm comes when yoyu play against amainly shooting opponent, that is'n't going to move towards you. You now have to transverse over 24" of battle field befor you start realy killing stuff (I know ork list can have a good amount of firepower, but list like that ain't wat Ork iz about!). This mean you take alot of casuties and quickly run out of turns to kill the enemy in.
Surely other assault armies face the same problems, well no, I can't think of another army that has it so bad. Here's a list of the main assaulting armies and how they get across the board

Nids': Fleet of foot, leaping wing and deep striker mean you moving across the board at least 50% fast then the orks

Khorn Bezerkers: Blood rage, especially when combined with talisman of burning blood means about an average 40% faster than the greenskins

Other Chaos: Either Rhinos, Bikes, Raptors or Iniltrate will make it easy to get up close and personal (don't get me started on Daemons)

Marines: Oh the choices! Bikes, Jump Packs, Rhinos, Drop Pods, Iniltrate and will traits you can take prity nuch what you want.

Eldar: Wave Serpents, Iniltrate, Fleet and jetbikes

Dark Eldar: Raiders, Fleet, Jet Bikes

When it comes to Orks, sure you got truks, but only a few units can use them and you can get some bikes, but the Lads are always stuck walking there 6" and if they get to the enemy only about 2 turns to do damage befor the game ends! Sure you can buy 1 battle waggon, but only 1 and it get put in reserves without your bys in it in escalation.

Anyway another ranting, more being productive, what can be done about this problem unique to the Orks
1) Give them all transport options? Fine for speedfreaks, but too me mechanised Orks feels wronge
2) Fleet of Ork? Could be justified as some sort of WAAAAGH, but I think there al already too many fleeting armies (eldar, dark eldar, Nids)
3) Scout? Once again can be jutified as WAAAGH! This is perhaps my favourate option, but giving Orks the Scout rile also feels wrong.
4)Longer Games? Maybe you can make the game last an extra turn if your warboss is alive at the end of the game. Still leaves you the problem of catching your enemy, but if you do at least you'll have time to Krump him!

Anyone have any thoughts/comment or think of a better way of adressing this problem (if others actually see it as a problem).

lord_blackfang
06-09-2006, 15:14
Eh? Orks only do any real damage on the charge, so there's not much harm done if you only get 1-2 turns of melee. If you're using your support and fast elements right, the footsloggers just need to mop up, anyway.

Dakari-mane
06-09-2006, 15:19
4th ed is a shooting match so you need to play to the mission. Accept the fact that some units will not see H-H & use them to hold objectives. Against a well played IW or Tau army you will not see H-H at all. So its all about the mission.

:skull:

RampagingRavener
06-09-2006, 15:27
My own personal preferace is an expanded WAAAGH! test. Each unit can test once per turn, either in the move, shoot, or assault phase, with the following effects-

Movement: Can move an additional D3".
Shooting: Re-roll failed rolls to hit of a 1.
Assault: As codex.

This way, not all Orks will be moving faster, as some will be wanting the greater accuracy, smaller Mobs may fail their test, and Mobz which may just be 6" away from the enemy may wish to risk being a hair out to get the double-initiative if they are in. Plus, I think it fits well-the more Orks in a mob, the more they will be encouraging each other and trying to outdo each other, so they'll move a little faster. However, as they take casualties and there are less Boyz to ensure they're confident enough to keep slogging on, they'll start to slow down as they think about legging it. It also means they're not as fast as an Eldar or a Tyranid, but enough Orks bunched together combined with their natural high stamina would be able to sprint a little faster than a Human or Tau.

The Song of Spears
06-09-2006, 15:45
Personally I agree that ork boyz have a overly hard time making it across the field of play. Not even khorne want's to be assaulted by a mob of boyz. But they are 8+ points a pop, and my spine gaunts have similar stats and are only 5 points.

I say bring back movement stats for each race and let the orks 'run' in the shooting phase if they want. (move 4", run 4") it's not a LOT faster, but it would help.

Although I think a better option would be to update the codex and do a 'Chaos' speed freaks, full kommando armies(all infiltrators), heavily looted armies etc. Get all those great fluff clans in the codex and supported.

GloomyGrim
06-09-2006, 16:49
My proposal would be: In a sucessfull waaagh! check, orks would add D6 to their charge range. hopefully that would lead to orks being able to charge on turn 3-4 instead of 4-5 like now.

Dosadi
06-09-2006, 17:12
As a long time foot sloggin' Ork player I think i can shed some enlightenment on this. Or at least bash some grots heads so dez undastand wot I'z tinkin'...sorry.

Lord_Blackfang has it right. Orks only need the last few turns of the game to smash everything into little bitz. The trick is to minimise the impact of the first few turns of enemy shooting so you can rock their world in the last few turns.

I used a "foot slogging" army in the local Medussa V campaign recently and won the entire thing. I won all but one game which I tied. I skipped a week and still came in first place!
Foot sloggin' Orks can be very, very good if used properly. First, take grots. I use only one mob of 30 spread out in front of my line (Troop choices are too valuable to use them up with grot mobs). If the enemy is going to shoot you, make sure he's shooting through your grots for that 5+ cover save. 5+ may not sound like much, but it's served me very well. Second, BIG mobs! I always field a mob of 30 sluggas. These boys are my main mob and stay right behind the grots unitl the 4th or 5th turn when they can charge into hand to hand. Burna Boys with KFF also help keep your boys alive (and give you fire...fire is good). Third, use some cover man! I will gladly run a mob of boys through a building for a 4+ cover save. I use the grot mob to get a movement re-roll to aviod that dreaded 1" move.

Next, your mobs are going to take heavy casulties for the first three or four turns of the game. Do not fear this! I see way too many Ork players fret and moan when a mob looses 10 boys a turn to shooting. When this happens I laugh as I remove the models from that table. I make my opponent think I don't care about casulties...'cause I don't! It's psycological warfare! If your opponenet thinks his shooting isn't having an effect non your battle plan he will try shooting somehting different. I once goaded my opponenet into shooting everything he had a my mob of Grots in a building. It was damn funny.

The last few turns of the game belong to DA ORKZ!!! Even 5 boys with choppas led by a nob with a PK can still kill an entire marine squad on the charge.

Personally I don't think any of the above suggestions are nessesary. Orks are not "fast". That's why they drive red cars.
You need to be crafty to play orks proppa. Most people play them as a point and click force like bugs. This will not work. You needz da cunnin' planz! use Small shoota boy mobs with bosspoles to round up any of your choppa mobs that fall back. the best think about orks is that they never stop comming. you can't pin them or make them break until they are below 12 models. When your opponenet thinks they can make you take Ld test just laugh and count the heads!
Sorry, I just really likes me orks. The current codex is dated and is not without it's flaws but it's still very competative with even the most recent codexes. Even the mighty Black Templars get ground up in the choppa machine (I shoot them so they come closer...tee hee).
The only army I'm still trying to figure out how to beat are Tau...those little buggers just shoot the snot out of me. Even with my KFF's and Grot meat shield. I've started taking big mobs of Kommandos to given them somthing to worry about. If I can get into HtH with 'em dey is punked (like everything else). But They are so maneuverable and shooty it's hard to pin them down. But that's the challenge! Also, in CoD Orks own all! 'nuff said.

Dosadi

Da Reddaneks
06-09-2006, 17:47
Orks need a lot of improvements in my opinion but making them track stars is not one of them. orks simply are not fast. the only orks that would fleet would be orks who have painted theirselves red. If you want a fast footslogging army then play nids.

Furthermore, Orks always do poorly at the track and field portiions of the 40K olympics. the Orks are just not the Jessie Owens or Carl Lewis's of the 40K universe.

this discussion about orks needing to move faster seems to be coming up about every two weeks now.

Simsandwich
06-09-2006, 17:59
Orks need no movement bonus.
Orks need no improvement at all. They are Perfect. In My Green Tinted Spectacles anyway.

TheHereticsPaintbrush
06-09-2006, 18:09
Here is my take;

Universal Special Rules came along later than they were supposed to; Now IMO GW is trying to move codexes more towards these special rules to give 40k a general "core" in which they like to stick by. When the new dex comes out i think they will get a really neat special rules straight from the rulebook.

Also goes with my conpsiracy theory that "You cannot use the contents of this book unless you possess a copy of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook", make you spend more money

Also i think that one day necrons we'll replace the WBB roll with feel no pain.

one day that is...

Thnk about orks with Fleet of (Waaaaaaghh!!!) and counter attack.

The Song of Spears
06-09-2006, 18:15
Orks need a lot of improvements in my opinion but making them track stars is not one of them. orks simply are not fast. the only orks that would fleet would be orks who have painted theirselves red. If you want a fast footslogging army then play nids.

Furthermore, Orks always do poorly at the track and field portiions of the 40K olympics. the Orks are just not the Jessie Owens or Carl Lewis's of the 40K universe.

this discussion about orks needing to move faster seems to be coming up about every two weeks now.

Alright, alright! I conceed! orkz' slow unless you paint their '**** red. Maybe what the world needs is more ork players, give da ork snot nosed newbie warbosses some steady flow of pointers/tactics

Cyboss GrimTeef
06-09-2006, 18:34
The ork codex is one of the best works in the codex catagory. It's balanced, and no one ever thinks of orks as a powergamer's army.

I think Dosadi has the right of it. Orks need to be tough and weather the firestorm that comes at them. They can hit the enemy lines like a ton of bricks, but getting there is the trick of it.

The fast choices we have are necessary to take some of the fire away from the workhorse boyz mobz. I think that these units will be a little more readily available in the next codex. Going from the upcoming Eldar codex, ork bikes may be made into troops choices, just as eldar jetbikes are going to be.
This will be a way to have an Evil Sunz type army (as in the Clanz lists) but still be in line with the simpler codex layout, like the eldar one. No more confusing Marine Traits armies, I think that the Eldar book is going to show some clues as to the makeup of the new ork codex.

So, anyway, with bikes maybe being a troops choice, you'll have 3 other options with which to tie up your enemies as well- trukk mobz being a good plan...

But a Pure Footslogga list is going to be something that is difficult to run. No way around it. KFFs, grots, vehicles, cover, and your own units in HTH are going to be your saving graces for your boyz.

Latro_
06-09-2006, 18:51
who said orks are bad at shooting? i win 50% of my games by shooting alone and next to no hth

bob syko
06-09-2006, 19:30
If orks could get into combat quicker there would be no point people playing against them because they couldn't win, 100 boyz only taking 2 turns to get into combat would be way too good, they have stormboyz, kommando's and wartrkks as well, if these are used right there is no need for the boyz to be faster.

I'm an ork player so it would be in my favour is they could move more, it would ruin the game though, make it too easy to be green.

Xyon
06-09-2006, 20:37
like kermit said "it aint easy being green" but orks are great as is, they just need a shiny new codex similar to this one, but with weapon stats listed.

MadJackMcJack
06-09-2006, 20:54
The problem for footsloggers is the weight of incoming fire. Seeing as how moving faster to cut down on the shooting time is out of the question, how about other methods. I've always felt that making shoota boyz cause pinning is fluffy (due to the little description of them in the army list), and would help footsloggers by cutting down the amount of fire hitting them. Plus it would be funny as hell to pin a cocky stealth team.

Dosadi
06-09-2006, 21:03
I'm all for the Orks gettin' new toys. I'd love to see Shock Attack Guns back in the next 'dex. Now those should cause Pinning! Think of a squad of Space Marines suddenly finding they have to share their armour with an psycho snotling. The members of the squad who didn't die would certainly have to spend the turn getting the snotling out of their Power Armour.
I'd also like to se Tellyporta Boyz put into the codex. This would give the Orks some deep strikers.
:angel: Since I don't have any problem winning with Orks I don't see much that needs to change.:evilgrin:

...just some new toys please!

Dosadi

kd7svh
06-09-2006, 23:00
Think of a squad of Space Marines suddenly finding they have to share their armour with an psycho snotling. The members of the squad who didn't die would certainly have to spend the turn getting the snotling out of their Power Armour.

LOL! Man I almost spewed my soda pop all over my monitor. Thanks Dosadi, I needed that. :D

lord_blackfang
06-09-2006, 23:04
Latro_: Good point. I think people get carried away by the choppa that they forget the masses of firepower that the Orks can have. Shooting is a vital part of the Ork strategy.

I'll second that. I probably have more S5 shots in my army than I do Choppa attacks.

Latro_
06-09-2006, 23:26
Tell you what. I had a unit of 17 shoota boys in a ruin in a cod game with the re roll to hit strat and 4 big shootas. 4+ cover save.

They wern't going anywhere. 'dakka' 'dakka' 'dakka' 'dakka' 'dakka'

You need some luck but so many of the games i play with my orks my opponent is bewildered at just how many dice you can pump out and the fact you can do it on the move. Its simple and orky as hell:

da mo bozy u av shootin at da humies da mo chances u iz got to get em, cus der is more dakka in dey face see?

kaptin_blacksquigg
07-09-2006, 13:44
Thanks for all the comments.
I think some of you aren't quite getting what I'm saying.
I'm not saying Orks are a generically bad army, In cities of death or against closecombat armies they're as good as any other. but against a decicated shooting army it's nearly impossible to win.
You say 2 turns is enough to do damage, but with only 2-3 units left alive it ain't (haveing any more left after 4 turns of shooting is unlikely).
As for shooting, sure Orks can make on of the best shooting armies in the game, but that just doesn't feel right to me. Saying you win half your games without even getting into close combat kinda proves my point.
I've played all the armies at this state and after 12 years of playing the current Ork codex is the only one I can make a solid "take all commers" list from, unless I use extreemly un-fluffy shooting army.
Rant Over!!

Someone over on the GW formus had a great and simple idea, how about WAAAGH also atd 3" to your charge. Simple, not overly powerful but should be enough to make the difference.

Dosadi
07-09-2006, 15:26
I don't see orks moving faster than eldar. Giving thema bonus to their charge range is not nessesary. I think your issue is with the kind of Ork army you want to play vs. the kind of ork army that wins games. Foot Sloggers can't just be all about the choppa. I always take fat shoota boy mobs to back up my sluggas. I also take things like 6 Killa Kans to draw fire away from my boyz. Also, while Kommandos are expensive they are pretty useful to have buzzing around your opponent's table quarter on the first turn. Just keep 'em in cover and try to draw some fire power away from your main advance. I always have a couple of units still in fightin' shape by the 4th or 5th turn. Using a couple of smaller mobs (read:burnaz) mixed in with your fat mob of sluuggas will confound and confuse your opponent. I take a mob of 30 sluggas and 2 mobs of 10 burnaz. I field all these as one big 50 boy mob on the table. When my opponent declares they are going to shoot at that mob, I ask them which of the three mobs they are targetting. It's so funny...guess you had to be there.:p
Orks work best as a mixed army. Half shooty, half crumpy. This is "Fluffy". Orks love Dakka almost as much as they love Smasha. I think People make the mistake of thinking Orks are a HtH army. Only because that is obviously where they do good. But there is so much more you can do with Orks.:angel:

Dosadi

kaptin_blacksquigg
07-09-2006, 15:32
I think your issue is with the kind of Ork army you want to play vs. the kind of ork army that wins games.

Yup, thats it too a tee.
Always thought Orks should be all about cracking heads open. Oh well :)
We'll see what the 'dex brings.

smokingmonkee
07-09-2006, 16:44
Just make orks cheaper, so that way you can fit more orks on the table. problem solved.

gitburna
07-09-2006, 16:56
.... but against a decicated shooting army it's nearly impossible to win.

Thats not true to be quite honest. Certain Tau formats can be nasty since they combine firepower with mobility but armies like Iron Warriors,Dark Angels and Guard *do not* pose a problem to [my]orks.


You say 2 turns is enough to do damage, but with only 2-3 units left alive it ain't (haveing any more left after 4 turns of shooting is unlikely).
What was "your" army doing for 4 turns? people ignore the shooting potential of orks which is entirely missing the point.Loading up on burnas and skorchas is no good when you cant use them until turn 5-6. You need big shootas and rokkits to make sure you are actually playing the game for 6 turns rather than 2turns.


As for shooting, sure Orks can make on of the best shooting armies in the game, but that just doesn't feel right to me. Saying you win half your games without even getting into close combat kinda proves my point.
I've played all the armies at this state and after 12 years of playing the current Ork codex is the only one I can make a solid "take all commers" list from, unless I use extreemly un-fluffy shooting army.

Ork squads get to include 3 assault shooting weapons in them, 4 if you include a nob. If you're filling these slots with burnas then thats your problem.
I'd hardly say a slugga boyz squad including 3 big shootas or rokkits was "Un-fluffy shooty"


Someone over on the GW formus had a great and simple idea, how about WAAAGH also atd 3" to your charge. Simple, not overly powerful but should be enough to make the difference.

I wouldnt even go that far... +1" to move distances would be more than enough, small subtle advantage without making them seem like some sort of sprinting mob.

Maleficum
07-09-2006, 19:02
4)Longer Games? Maybe you can make the game last an extra turn if your warboss is alive at the end of the game. Still leaves you the problem of catching your enemy, but if you do at least you'll have time to Krump him!


This was a great idea, though.


I think the ork codex is great, and shooty ork armies is entirely "fluffy" ... dakka-dakka away!

Simsandwich
07-09-2006, 20:00
Shhoty Orks does not = Unfluffy.
Orks love fightin and killin in all its forms. Not just gettin righ' up close.
I myself have shooty Mobs. Flash Gitz are evil, 5 Rokkits against any tank=bye tank
5 Big Shootas=Bye Bye Infantry.

Shadowfox
07-09-2006, 20:15
I played a 1500 point game with an experimental list I was working on. One made up of, well not much other than hordes of boyz. My sluggas had a nice array of rokkits that got rid of enemy armour for me while they charged up the field and the combination of a grot shield and 2 KFF's reduced casualties as I moved. Backup firepower was provided by my trusty looted Russ. On the whole i find there are few things as satisfying as seeing your opponents face when you have roughly 120 models on the table. I've toyed around with some other ideas, mainly involving flash gits, but haven't gotten around to including them in any lists yet.

The fun thing with orks is that literally any army variation can be fluffy, as for balance issues, while I have run into problems but a simple lowering of the point cost and maybe a move bonus of some kind could fix minor inconviences. The rest is just for fun.

MadJackMcJack
07-09-2006, 20:28
5 Rokkits against any tank=bye tank


Someone's obviously never come up against Murphey. A few games ago, my rokkitz missed EVERY shot, even with ammo grotz. And I use 8 rokkitz! Said tanks went on to tear up my force.

Simsandwich
07-09-2006, 20:50
Someone's obviously never come up against Murphey. A few games ago, my rokkitz missed EVERY shot, even with ammo grotz. And I use 8 rokkitz! Said tanks went on to tear up my force.

Ye Gads man!
Sometimes its just the dice.
I myself have a good record against Imperial Guard.
And they are THE static gunline army.

Helicon_One
07-09-2006, 20:59
Ork squads get to include 3 assault shooting weapons in them, 4 if you include a nob.
This is the strength of the Ork list, right here. Every other army has to stand still to shoot at range, so they have to choose whether they want to shoot their big guns, or to lose their ranged attacks to advance with the intention of getting into combat.

Orks get to do both at once.

Tim

ZigZagMan
07-09-2006, 22:42
As for shooting, sure Orks can make on of the best shooting armies in the game, but that just doesn't feel right to me. Saying you win half your games without even getting into close combat kinda proves my point.
I've played all the armies at this state and after 12 years of playing the current Ork codex is the only one I can make a solid "take all commers" list from, unless I use extreemly un-fluffy shooting army.
Rant Over!!


Why is a shooting ork army unfluffy? Did you play 2nd edition, 1st edition?
Badmoons have ALWAYS been a shooty ork army, they haven't dissapeared yet. In the fluff of 1st edition, every Bad moon Ork "household" had to supply a heavy weapon to the army if they wanted to fight. Death skulls have lots of shooty weapons as well, just not always Orky ones.
I have been playing a bad moons speed freak army for about 6 years now, and it shoots alot. The other Orks may say that is not "orky", but it is in character for bad moons.
A good combo of shooting and assualt is what most other ork armies should have, Orks have been renownd for loving to fire large, loud, obnoxious Gunz when ever they can, and ya can't kill any large amount of skimmers in HTH now can ya. So don't be afraid of a little bit of massive firepower, its well within the fluff, no matter what GW has tried to brainwash ya with.

sulla
07-09-2006, 22:51
Someone's obviously never come up against Murphey. A few games ago, my rokkitz missed EVERY shot, even with ammo grotz. And I use 8 rokkitz! Said tanks went on to tear up my force.

Hehe, my orks usually go the other way, often hitting with over half the shooters... it's my marine snipers that can't hit anything. I once missed with 4 snipers for 3 turns in a row!

Toppan
08-09-2006, 04:41
i feel sad that i cannot comment on these or any of the topics about typical orks...im feral after all and have no experience with the regular orkses

BUT i will stick my 2 cents in somewhere. so you say orks need to move faster? but they have a 6+ save...that just means more dead orks as they get closer to rapid fire weapons. orks are big mushrooms with loud guns, big axes and little thought power. they are lumbering masses of killy and shooty that just surge forward in the classic green tide. tides dont have to be fast.

but then i also think of it in another way. green tide=tons of orks just rushing forward. itd be unfluffy if that green tide was to become a green trickle, correct? so maybe if you have the maximum number of boys in a squad, you can move like the scout special rule. itd encourage people to take large amounts of boys and would show the orks eager to die, and eager to krump!

sorta off topic, i think stikkbommaz need to have red painted armor (fleet) and/or a 5+ save, to give them use. wyrboys and minderz need to be re-implemented and allowed to deep strike maybe. or maybe kommandos can choose whether to deep strike or infiltrate.

or how about a new unit. mega armor/near killa kan ork that can deep strike from the opponent's table edge, but has a random movement like spore mines (because hes incased in so much armor he's blind), 2+save, 3+inv, twin linked kustom mega blastas and maybe a nice new piece of kit on the other arm...
itd be like

holy crap

STOMPAS SHOULD BE LIKE THAT

lastly...i have something to ask...has anyone seen any ork-based novels? if not...i was thinking of writing one as a fanfic. feral of course :)

MordrekDaMean
08-09-2006, 05:06
tis just popped into my head....
more boyz equals more surviving to get into HTH, right? You could really represent a horde if Ork armies were allowed to field troops choices as elites, fast attack, and heavy.
so, in a standard mission you could have a warboss, stormboyz, 4 slugga units, 3 shootas, 2 grots, warbikes, and a dread.

let em move up the table slow... keep killin em and more keep commin.

IJW
08-09-2006, 06:10
You say 2 turns is enough to do damage, but with only 2-3 units left alive it ain't (haveing any more left after 4 turns of shooting is unlikely).

Just out of interest, how much terrain is normally on the table? The full 25% should give you a LOT of cover to advance through, but most people play with far less than 25%...

kaptin_blacksquigg
08-09-2006, 11:31
Just out of interest, how much terrain is normally on the table? The full 25% should give you a LOT of cover to advance through, but most people play with far less than 25%...

We usually play about 25%, but this isn't a big deal. With grot and Kustom force fields most of my army usually has 5+ anyway, so they don't have to be slowed by terrain.

I realise that not all Orks are about h2h, but the majority are. As the shooter boys entry says, they are there to pin the enemy down untill the close combat units get there.

As for what your fire power is doing while your closing for the kill, usually not enough (uness you have a very shooty army), as rockets wont be able to kill tanks for a good 2-3 turn (assuming you opponent knows what he's doing and stay over 24" away). Shooters will do some damage, but no where near what a decent gun-line army can dish out.

Yeah I did play in 1st and 2nd ed and sure they where shooty then, but much more so in the game than the fluff (except obviously Bad Moons and maybe Death Skullz).

All that said I'm glad you guys are having different experiences than me. Maybe I'm not as good ork general as you guy or maybe I play in a more competative enviroment (not even going to get into if that is a good or bad thing!!).
I do love the Greenskins and always will, but I feel there is something lacking in the current codex and just can't put my finger on what!

gitburna
08-09-2006, 12:43
last game i played against a guard army and really crippled myself with a stupid deployment,much different to how i would normally deploy.In addition to this,i lost 2 of my 3 rokkit trakks and one of my skorcha traks with another with weapon destroyed. My trukk boyz with trukk got immobilised and i had pieplates dropped on my orks heads. By turn 2 i was about ready to give up but dont you just know those orks keep on going and little by little i clawed my way back into the game.

I'd say that orks struggle the most with Tau, imperial guard are probably the most naturally balanced foe, in over 6 years of orks v guard gaming ive always had close run battles which mostly seem to have ended in draws or very narrow defeats to one side or other... I've found marines + chaos and eldar to be slightly easier to face. Ive never faced tyranids but am looking forward to that particular battle someday

Mulciber
08-09-2006, 21:45
Kaptin Blacksquig, my friend you are totally correct.

You are also getting beaten up on by a bunch of sensitive ork players. You seem to have pressed one of their buttons. I don't lose to non speed freak orks when i play with tourney worthy lists. Black Legion and Necron both have no difficulty in dealing with them. If you tend to play more comp heavy lists in those armies you can be beaten pretty soundly, but a good mix of ordnance and autocannons/heavy gauss tend to kill at a higher rate than would be acceptable. I used to play Orks a few years ago (same codex) I've tried 150 model armies, I've tried speed freaks, and I've tried a mix. In my experience, the speed freaks were best by a large margin, followed by the green tide. A mix is the wrong way to go. One way to spin the mix is that the fast stuff gives your slow stuff time to get there. In actuality, against a competent shooty opponent, the fast stuff becomes the first priority, once its dealt with the slow stuff becomes the second priority, with 2 rounds of shooting left to clean up. It sounds like, while you may not be the best general, it is more of a case of the level of play you encounter. I assume your group has higher than average ability, and they don't get 'thrown out of their gameplan' by a big ball of orks.

There has been plenty of wisdom mixed in with the emotional responses you've received so far. To address your question, I believe the ork book needs an increase in power, applied judiciously, but a movement increase is not the answer. Orks have high quality long range assault weapons available in their basic troop squads. When you say that the weight of your slugga boyz isn't felt until turns 5 and 6 then you are indeed misplaying them. My best 'green tide' armies usually included 20+ rokkits. Rather than inflicting close combat wounds sooner (which the orks really only want to be in CC for one round. A 6+ armor save and initiative 2 make them terrible 'grinders') your best bet is to mix your wound output between long range assault weapons and that (hopefully) backbreaking waaahh! powered charge on 5 or 6. Fleet clearly destroys that, as you are giving up your shooting for marginal and unpredictable speed increases. Adding charge distance while keeping their current (incredibly) lean assault weapon costs would increase the cost of the basic boy to unplayable levels.

I will credit the ork codex designers. The ork book was a very creative mixed bag of incredibly devastating long range assault weapons that have the ability to self-support their own assault units, with a wild swingy BS2, it made for some fun games. The problem with the current environment is that the abundance of undercosted, well-protected and devastating shooty units are able to output wounds too fast and too efficiently. Whittled down ork mobs may still inflict moderate damage to non-reslient troops, but their victory points have already been reaped, and they are now forced to make up far too much ground during a phase in which you grant your opponent attacks on your own turn. Call it codex creep, if you like to name your phenomena...

I'd like to offer a suggestion. I think adding a cheap unrestricted artillery piece would fix the issue very well. By adding an unrestricted basalisk equivalent, you improve the ork early game, in that stage where their rokkits don't have their full range. If orks plan to get to assault late, then lets maximize the time they can inflict heavy casualties in apocalyptic, loud and incredibly 'orky' ways. Another perk to adding this artillery is that it won't increase the power level of an already devastating speed freak list. Perhaps indirect fire isn't the way to go. Maybe its a leman russ equivalent (I'd hate for it to be perpetually shaken and stunned however) so lets make it a defiler equivalent. An artillery piece strapped to a squiggoth? I leave those decisions up to the people who get paid to think about this stuff.

Nkari
10-09-2006, 11:04
Yeah, I wish they could or would focus on big artillery pieces with the orks.. sure the current ones are allmost ok, but the bs 2 hurts them to much imo.. and the range of the guns is about 6-12" to short (zzap 32", kannon 48, and lobba 60" with 12" minimum and added str for the template, or make it large template.)

scarvet
10-09-2006, 14:41
Rokkitz,Rokkitz,Rokkitz...and bigger gunz wu zolfu da problum

Grand Master Raziel
10-09-2006, 15:17
Okay, here it is, boyz. Orks don't need to be faster. They don't need new special rules. They don't need a load of new gear. Codex Orks is one of the best books currently in the game. It needs a little tweaking to make it mesh well with 4th ed, and to address the two complaints I've seen that I consider legitimate: stormboyz and the 'Uge Choppa.

Now, one thing that I've found to be true about this game is that winning requires moving, shooting, and assaulting. If you concede one of these aspects to your opponent and don't even try to contest it, then you are likely to lose. I've seen this happen to Imperial Guard armies, where the player pins all their hopes on shooting and doesn't have any counterassault. The same applies for Orks and shooting. Fortunately, Orks can muster a lot of shooting without significantly reducing their combat potential. You don't have to take a single mob of Shootas or Flash Gitz if you don't want to. Slugga Boyz have the option of taking up to three (3!) big shootas or rokkit launchas per mob, and those things are move-and-fire weapons.

Now, as far as speed goes, Orks have plenty of things that are fast - we're not even talking Kult of Speed here, we're talking vanilla Orks. Let's go through the list.

1: Warboss: he can take a warbike, but what I'm really getting at here is that if he's got a retinue, you can mount it in a wartrukk. That's better than a kick in the pants.

2: Stormboyz: okay, they do need a small fix, but only a small one - let them Mob Up. Otherwise, they're fine - heck, they're more than fine! In any other codex, jump pack squads would be a Fast Attack choice. Orks get them as an Elite choice.

3: Kommandos: Okay, not technically "fast", but Infiltrators get to start further forward than standard troops, so I thought they'd be worth including.

4: Trukk Mobz: This is an obvious one, really.

5: Warbikes: Warbikes are also sort of obvious.

6: Looted Vehicles: You can take up to three Looted Rhinos as a Heavy Support choice. That gives you a means of moving up to three Mobz quickly, for relatively cheap. What's that? You don't want to use small 10-ork mobz? Okay, I can understand that. However, that's not all you can do with the Rhinos. You can also use them as a rolling wall to protect your foot mobz from incoming fire.

7: Lootas: Lootas can take the transport option of the squad they loot from. You can have them loot from a SM tactical squad, taking the Rhino and a flamer (doesn't roll to hit), then use the mob as a power klaw delivery system/rolling cover/tie things up while the foot mobs advance.


With all that at your disposal, there's really no call to be complaining about how slow Orks are. Orks have plenty of options to go fast. You don't even need to use all of them. I find that a few fast units tie things up and distract opponents long enough for foot mobz to move up. Hopefully, that pretty much puts to bed the idea that Orks need more speed.

One more thing: as has been previously mentioned, when you're playing Orks, you can't let yourself get rattled when you take heavy casualties. Win or lose, you're going to take a lot of casualties.