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bluedwaggin
24-06-2005, 08:14
First...is there any picture of a Lord on a Great stag.

Second... Is there a list of Forest spirit units?

More questions as I think of 'em

Lord Setra
24-06-2005, 08:16
Forest sprite units:
Dryads
Tree kin
Treeman
and possibly the wild hunt.

And on the lord on great stag I dont believe there are any pics yet.

Galonthar
24-06-2005, 08:31
hmm I wonder id there will be a geart stag riding model,..

with the old range, a glade guardian (hero) and a forest lord, could ride a great eagle,... but I `ve never seen an official model of one,.. only converions

samw
26-06-2005, 23:51
True, but at least there were great eagle models, you just had to convert the riders. Converting an entire creature to a decent standard is a bit beyond most of us, besides, isn't that what we pay GW for? :p

Lestat
27-06-2005, 00:03
1. There is no picture of the stag rider yet. Including the army book.
2. No there isn't a separate list for forest spirits. But it is possible to do an entire army of them, from the normal list.

Xenageo
27-06-2005, 01:20
Forest sprite units:
Dryads
Tree kin
Treeman
and possibly the wild hunt.

And on the lord on great stag I dont believe there are any pics yet.

Wild Riders of Kurnous also have the special rule "forest spirits". The "wild hunt" would be orion accompanied by his hounds. Wild Riders are still elves, though.

Squirrel
27-06-2005, 11:44
yeah well they are half elf half forest spirit...

Might be better to convert dryads to rider their mounts to fit in with theme...

Brucey...

Galonthar
27-06-2005, 12:23
yeah well they are half elf half forest spirit...

Might be better to convert dryads to rider their mounts to fit in with theme...

Brucey...

hmm.... don`t really know if that would look all to nice

Kul
27-06-2005, 12:29
yeah well they are half elf half forest spirit...

Might be better to convert dryads to rider their mounts to fit in with theme...

Brucey...

hmm
they are in the forestspirit list anyway :P

I think I'll play the forest list, but there's not much to choose from :(

one core, 2 special and one rare :( :chrome:

Galonthar
27-06-2005, 12:34
hmm
they are in the forestspirit list anyway :P

I think I'll play the forest list, but there's not much to choose from :(

one core, 2 special and one rare :( :chrome:

and a couple of characters
(those dryad mages, and the ancient treeman lord)

Kul
27-06-2005, 12:47
well, that's still about one choise in every category.. :(

PARTYCHICORITA
27-06-2005, 19:50
treekind look interesting, iv'e heard a lot about them. One question though hoping not to break board rules to those who have seen the book. Are they cheaper or more expensive point wise than kroxigors? Just that. thnx

risK
27-06-2005, 20:00
What about converting Dryads into wooden Centaurs. Shouldn't be tat difficult and expensive, since they're plastic. THAT would fit into a all FS army without using elfves for the WildHunt'r ruleset.

Squirrel
27-06-2005, 22:46
That sounds a good Idea...I like it...

Might try that if I have a few spare models from my army box..

Brucey...

Bortus
28-06-2005, 00:23
Personally I can't wait to see the Stag pics and the new Orion model.

Ddraggoch
28-06-2005, 04:31
There are no stag pictures, because by the looks of it there is no stag model. Everyone who has seen the army book has said that there is no stag picture in there. That combined with the fact that there is no stag mounted character on the release schedule leads me to beleive that there is in fact no stag model.

Sylass
29-06-2005, 16:31
Anyone who knows if the Core, Special and Rare slots change if you pick a Treeman Lord as a General for your army? Or is everything the same in connection to unit slots?

Would be interesting to know...I've a certain army in mind and as far as I can tell (judging from the rumours here), I'd prefer if the slots would stay the same as if you'd use an Elven General. :)

Arthion
29-06-2005, 18:52
Afaik only change is if you have a highborn general in the army - then Eternal Guard becomes core. No other changes.

Lord Setra
29-06-2005, 19:03
Yeah the army list stays the smae with the treeman lord, only thing that changes is he becomes a bit harder.

PARTYCHICORITA
30-06-2005, 01:27
also, what was the final call with the scouts? are they +5pts per model or +5pts for the whole unit? They do loose the benefits for shooting at short range don't they?

Also is the no -1 to hit for moving and shooting a WE rule or a glade guard rule?

Jericho
30-06-2005, 05:58
+5 per unit doesn't make much sense, why would they bother on a unit that will cost you a minimum of ~120 points anyway? It would pretty much have to be per model to be worth doing.

Arthion
30-06-2005, 07:57
SNIP
Also is the no -1 to hit for moving and shooting a WE rule or a glade guard rule?

General Asrai rule.

PARTYCHICORITA
30-06-2005, 12:46
+5 per unit doesn't make much sense, why would they bother on a unit that will cost you a minimum of ~120 points anyway? It would pretty much have to be per model to be worth doing.

that's what i feared... well no expensive as hell scouts in my army then :cries:

zulusan
02-07-2005, 11:47
my first post, on new portent!
does anyone of you guys know orions stats and magic Items?!
thx for your replies.
cheers

Lady's Champion
03-07-2005, 16:32
Not to the point that I can post them no- all I hear is he is very fast and very strong, with a LOT of Special Abilities- a bit like Tyrion/Teclis in that respect

zulusan
03-07-2005, 23:06
thanks for your reply! even if i am still curious.
so we will figure it out in afew weeks. for sure he kicks as.s.

cheers

Galonthar
04-07-2005, 07:45
thanks for your reply! even if i am still curious.
so we will figure it out in afew weeks. for sure he kicks as.s.

cheers
thats what he`s a special char. for :p

Sagatarius
05-07-2005, 09:24
The two sister which will ride on the dragon will be hard also.

Xxcha
05-07-2005, 14:51
I heard that if you dont kill them both (they have seperate stat lines) in the same turn they come back to life. Whether they come back with full wounds i dont know, but i wouldnt of thought so as it would be a tad overpowered.

malisteen
05-07-2005, 15:59
Now keep in mind I'm working from memory, but I seem to recall that the sisters had to be killed in the same phase, not just the same turn, or they'd be restored to full wounds. Maybe I've got it wrong, but that's what I seem to recall.

zulusan
05-07-2005, 16:23
but this makes them nearly invinceable.

i donīt even count the dragon!! are you realy sure that it is
the same phase and that they get all wounds restored?!

but hey if it is true - i like it - we rule

Naghaz
05-07-2005, 16:37
Back on the subject of the Hero riding a Stag. Is there at least an option for a Stag as a mount for the Highborns? Or is there nothing at all for it?

malisteen
05-07-2005, 18:09
no, I'm not sure on phase vs. turn, I only got a quick look.

Yes, there is an option for heroes to ride a 'Great Stag', but the hero must be of the wild rider kindred, which means no bows, and no magical weapons or armor other then spears or 'armor', ie- a wild rider hero may not wear the helm of the hunt. odd, no?

Anyway, the stag is similar to a daemonic steed in stats and cost (not identical, just roughly similar), and requires a 50mm base. Which is lousy, because it means the hero can be picked out by shooting while within a wild rider unit, an cannot join any other units, and the steed just isn't tough enough to take it, you'll be on foot before you know it.

There is a similar problem with mages on unicorns. They can only ride a unicorn if they are of the glamourweave kindred, and the unicorn is the Bret kind on the 50mm base, which makes the character seperately targetable, and way too vulnerable for such an expensive option.

Too bad really.

Malakai
05-07-2005, 23:08
Forgive me for going OT, but I'm not that familiar with the wood elf army as it's been years since I actually saw someone playing them. I want to know is are there any spearmen other than the Eternal Guard? I thought WE's had normal troops that could carry bow or spear.

Malakai

malisteen
06-07-2005, 04:03
Wood Elves used to have two core infantry units- the first being archers and the second being a spearman unit called 'glade guard'. Now the old glade guard spearmen have been removed entirely, and the core archers are now called glade guard, resulting in a little confusion.

The new wood elf army only has three ranked infantry units- the core archers, the ogre-sized special treekin, and the special (unless the army is led by a highborn) eternal guard.

saï.gonn
06-07-2005, 07:31
Do you know how can we buy the WE models in attachment ?

I don't see them in the WE miniatures gallery section ! :-(

Thanks !



I can't attach the file ! :-(

In fact i talk about wardancers models with dynamic position ...

Sagatarius
06-07-2005, 07:36
I think they will appear in the gallery as soon the WE are released.

anarchistica
06-07-2005, 16:12
but this makes them nearly invinceable.

i donīt even count the dragon!! are you realy sure that it is
the same phase and that they get all wounds restored?!

but hey if it is true - i like it - we rule
It's true. Both have to be slain in the same phase or the slain one is revived at her starting amount of Wounds. However, they're only Hero-level characters and must both fight if challenged. It's not that hard to inflict 2*2 Wounds on a bunch of WS6 T3 girlies with no save. They're awfully expensive too. Almost 300 points for a 3" template S3 shot and a 'pass S test or can't move' shot. If you just kill the Eagle or Dragon they're riding this will make them even more useless.

Compared to Orion and Drycha, they suck. Drycha costs a bit more than the sister on a Great Eagle (which would make them even more useless) and she's a teleporting Exalted Champion of Tzeentch with Eternal Hatred that Causes Terror. Orion costs a bit less than the sisters on a Dragon and he's an Undead Daemon Prince with higher LD, a Wound+Attack more, a "foot-lance", a bolt thrower, 2 Inquisitor Acolytes, more dispel power and the ability to do almost the same as a Screaming Bell can do against cavalry when he charges the first time.

:p @ descriptions

Voss
06-07-2005, 20:56
The comparisons for Orion and Drycha are disturbing.
The term Wood Elf Undead Daemon Prince is going to give me munchkin dreams.

They do seem more useful than the twins though. (Which, while somewhat interesting, are a bit cliche in concept.)

anarchistica
07-07-2005, 06:00
Dude, stats of a DP, crumbles like an Undead (-1 if within 6" of a forest). Et cetera.

:p

Sylass
07-07-2005, 06:14
[...] If you just kill the Eagle or Dragon they're riding this will make them even more useless. [...]
Eagle?

You can choose to let them ride an eagle instead of the Dragon?

anarchistica
07-07-2005, 06:49
Eagle?

You can choose to let them ride an eagle instead of the Dragon?
I was waiting for that question. :D

Naestra and Arahan can either ride Ceithin-Har the Forest Dragon or Gwindalor (omg teh oroginal naem!!11) the Great Eagle. These cost the normal amount of points, so the unit will cost you at least 325 points and a Lord choice, and you don't even have a freaking General for that.

I truly wonder what the hell GW wanted with this unit. You get 2 shots at BS6. One will hit about 5-6 models at best with S3, the other can prevent a unit from moving if they fail a S test. That's it. They got the "gotta kill both" rule but they're naked T3 W2 girlies. In close combat, they only have +2In over two 18 point Wardancers! I'm sure i can make something far more useful at the same cost or less.

Highborn, Alter Kindred, Helm of the Hunt, Amaranthine Brooch, Gwytherc's Horn, Annoyance of Netlings, light armour, great weapon. That's 284 points. For that you get Movement 9 on a US1 character (hmm, what about Lizardmen was so annoying again?), 6 WS8 S6 Attacks on the charge (-1WS/A after that), a 5+ armour save, a 3+ daemonic ward save and, most importantly, opponents only ever hit you on a 6 in a challenge. Oh, and you can be Immune to Psychology once per game, i had some spare points and that can be a life saver.

Against a Blood Dragon Count with great weapon, Heart Piercing, Cursed Book and Master Strike (311 points):

Highborn charges, hits twice and wounds 1,3 times with no save.
Count hits 0,67 times, wounds 0,56 times and causes 0,19 wounds after the 3+ ward save.
Highborn wins.

Not the best Count or Highborn, but it does show that even BD's can lose from pointy-eared wusses now.

NakedFisherman
07-07-2005, 08:01
Sounds like a cool Highborn. Guess my Skaven will have to decline that challenge and guess my Tyrant will have to roll one 6 and smash him :P

Zeb
07-07-2005, 08:48
I'm going to use the girls for heroes on foot instead... I don't like SC and never play with them...

Sagatarius
07-07-2005, 08:50
Maybe i will put one oh them on the dragon as normal general.

malisteen
07-07-2005, 15:51
The girls on the dragon are interesting as a mobile, shootier unit. Between randomizing the hits between their dragon and between them most small arms should be about useless against them, and wood elves are pretty good at hunting war machines.

So for the first few turns of the game you get a flying terror-causer with three different ranged attacks that can target three seperate enemy units. Against certain armies this can be quite effective. Land behind a knight lance and breath armor-ignoring flame on it, force another lance to make a S check (vs. 3 on brets) or be unable to move, and drop a template on the heads of a peasant/pilgrim unit, then cause 2 to 3 terror tests to boot. Not bad for one turn's work.

So you go around like this for a few turns, and save the big dragon charge for mid to late game. Could be effective. Might not be. Probably not worth the points/slots. But there is potential there, so I hesitate to write them off so quickly.

Not that it matters much to me, as I'm not a big special character user, at least not since Nagash went away. I miss Thallandor, though, and Naith.


As a side note, Orion has some potential. Pretty tough, and S7 on the charge (nothing else in the army has more then S6, ever).

Xxcha
07-07-2005, 18:29
I'v gotta say that orion sounds bloody awesome!

Lord Setra
07-07-2005, 18:51
Orion is amazing I mean he has a bloody bolt thrower and two little minion dogs that are still quite good oh and his ridiculously high movement.

Xxcha
07-07-2005, 19:55
Can you tell any deails about any of his magic items or his rumored multiple special rules?

malisteen
08-07-2005, 00:20
Orion doesn't have a bolt thrower. The rules for that item have changed, now it's basically a lance.

He makes wild riders core, although archers/scouts become special and waywatchers are removed entirely. He's a forest spirit with stats similar to a daemon prince, undead-style unbreakableness/crumbling, good speed, and a few nifty tricks to boot. For the most part he's just a strong charge element, but he's good at what he does.

[edit] wait, he does have a bolt thrower. how did I miss that?

Simon23
08-07-2005, 00:32
Is a mounted noble allowed to take a great weapon?

Max_Killfactor
08-07-2005, 03:51
About how many points is Orion? Also, what does he have in terms of defense (besides toughness of five and 5 wounds).

Here is Orion's statline from what I've put together from a variety of sites:
M: 9 (someone said he could keep up with fast cav... could be 10)
WS: 8 (same as demon prince)
BS: No idea... probably 6 or something else high
S: 5/7 on the charge
T: 5
W: 5 (demon prince +1)
I: 8 (same as demon prince)
A: 6 (demon prince +1)
LD: 10

Overall, his stats are pretty close to last edition. I remember looking at his 5th edition statline recently and it was very similar to the current demon prince.

anarchistica
08-07-2005, 06:46
Orion doesn't have a bolt thrower. The rules for that item have changed, now it's basically a lance.
His bow, the Hawk's Talon, now does the trick. Hence the quiver. I got a "fairly" reliable source on this (you can hardly argue with a scan) so :p.


Is a mounted noble allowed to take a great weapon?
Well yeah, but you don't want him to be mounted, you want to make him a Nike Noble with the Alter Kindred. Sure he can't be the general or join any units but +4M, +1I and +1A makes up for that quite nicely.


About how many points is Orion? Also, what does he have in terms of defense (besides toughness of five and 5 wounds).
He's a Terror Causing Forest Spirit with up to 2 Inquisitor Acolytes...nearly 600 points.


W: 5 (demon prince +1)
I: 8 (same as demon prince)
My bad, it's a Nurgle Daemon Prince with +1W and +1I then. :p

User Name
08-07-2005, 06:59
Orion is not going to be that hard to kill, he only has a 5+ demonic ward save, if anything ever gets to attack back at him, with that high a movement he will probably be able to pick his fights, i guess thats sort of the point of the new WE.

maxwell123
08-07-2005, 08:01
Orion doesn't seem to be much of a match for a lot of other special characters though does he?? I think the likes of Tyrion and Archaon would make short work of him.

Voss
08-07-2005, 08:46
I truly wonder what the hell GW wanted with this unit. You get 2 shots at BS6. One will hit about 5-6 models at best with S3, the other can prevent a unit from moving if they fail a S test. That's it. They got the "gotta kill both" rule but they're naked T3 W2 girlies. In close combat, they only have +2In over two 18 point Wardancers! I'm sure i can make something far more useful at the same cost or less.

Maybe something fluffy or interesting without having to be uber-god-character? Just a thought.



Highborn, Alter Kindred, Helm of the Hunt, Amaranthine Brooch, Gwytherc's Horn, Annoyance of Netlings, light armour, great weapon. That's 284 points. For that you get Movement 9 on a US1 character (hmm, what about Lizardmen was so annoying again?), 6 WS8 S6 Attacks on the charge (-1WS/A after that), a 5+ armour save, a 3+ daemonic ward save and, most importantly, opponents only ever hit you on a 6 in a challenge. Oh, and you can be Immune to Psychology once per game, i had some spare points and that can be a life saver.

Against a Blood Dragon Count with great weapon, Heart Piercing, Cursed Book and Master Strike (311 points):

Highborn charges, hits twice and wounds 1,3 times with no save.
Count hits 0,67 times, wounds 0,56 times and causes 0,19 wounds after the 3+ ward save.
Highborn wins.

Not the best Count or Highborn, but it does show that even BD's can lose from pointy-eared wusses now.

And then you add in the unit size, standard and ranks into the Combat resolution, the Alter auto breaks because of fear (or if its that 1 round where its immune to psych, tests at -3/-4) and runs away. Huzzah.
Not the best use for 284 points.

Yes, you can pick your target and combine charges with units, etc. But, if you're spending 284 points with the expectation of doing *1* wound, its probably not worthwhile.

Zeb
08-07-2005, 09:01
I've gone light on items in my Dark Elf army, I'll probably continiue that trend with Wood Elfs.

If Bow of Loren benefit from the extra attack from Alter Kindered that's the only time I can see myself using that kinderd...

Akuma
08-07-2005, 09:27
And then you add in the unit size, standard and ranks into the Combat resolution, the Alter auto breaks because of fear (or if its that 1 round where its immune to psych, tests at -3/-4) and runs away. Huzzah.

Not quite - when you add the points for fully ranked unit with standar it comes about 430 pts ( unit of 20 zombis )

For that cost you can add a unit of let say 7 wardancers ??? or 8 Dryads ??? and with Alter keeping the Count busy thay will calmly grind you'r ranked unit Just with CR my shortsighted friend

malisteen
08-07-2005, 13:23
He's a good sight cheaper then Archaon. I don't know about Tyrion. Between being a M9 terror causing bolt thrower and having 6 S7 attacks on the charge, he seems somewhat reasonable to me. If you're willing to slow him down some, you could make him untargetable by having him join a unit of treekin, which is another trick archaon doesn't have.

Besides, I would think something was wrong if he could stand up to archaon in a fight. He seems quite sufficient to me, and if I were more of a fan of the wild rider models, I might even consider making an army for him.

anarchistica
08-07-2005, 17:22
Maybe something fluffy or interesting without having to be uber-god-character? Just a thought.
Something can be fluffy without being pathetic.


And then you add in the unit size, standard and ranks into the Combat resolution, the Alter auto breaks because of fear (or if its that 1 round where its immune to psych, tests at -3/-4) and runs away. Huzzah.
Not the best use for 284 points.
Yes, because that's an equal match up. A Count that costs as much as the Highborn but has a unit versus the Highborn without unit. :rolleyes:


Yes, you can pick your target and combine charges with units, etc. But, if you're spending 284 points with the expectation of doing *1* wound, its probably not worthwhile.
For feths sake, have you ever played Warhammer? The point of that example was to show that if a formerly incredibly wussy WE Lord goes toe to toe with a freaking Blood Dragon Vampire Count with Cursed Book (one of the toughest units) the Highborn can actually win. Aside from that, what Akuma said. Alot fo armies rely on their fat characters, what happens when those become utterly useless?

PARTYCHICORITA
09-07-2005, 01:00
Orion causes terror? i though he just caused fear... that would mean he's scarier than his previous encarnation :)

Simon23
09-07-2005, 02:41
What does fury of Kurnous mean?

Voss
09-07-2005, 04:27
For feths sake, have you ever played Warhammer? The point of that example was to show that if a formerly incredibly wussy WE Lord goes toe to toe with a freaking Blood Dragon Vampire Count with Cursed Book (one of the toughest units) the Highborn can actually win. Aside from that, what Akuma said. Alot fo armies rely on their fat characters, what happens when those become utterly useless?

Why yes, I have. My point was that you rarely have people stupid enough to have a character wandering around on their own so you can do Theoryhammer matchups without actual battle conditions affecting the math.
And I'd hardly call inflicted 1 wound making the other character utterly useless.

As for the wardancers/etc. Well, obviously they've been destroyed by magic missiles. Or delayed by bats. Or wolves. Or eaten by a small boy named Kevin.

@simon23- Fury of Kurnous is a special ability of the wild riders. When they aren't charging, they get an extra attack.

anarchistica
09-07-2005, 07:41
Why yes, I have. My point was that you rarely have people stupid enough to have a character wandering around on their own so you can do Theoryhammer matchups without actual battle conditions affecting the math.
The Highborn has M9 and his buddies have M5/skirmish or M9...you can easily get the charge.


And I'd hardly call inflicted 1 wound making the other character utterly useless.
Read what i wrote. This Highborn has Annoyance of Netlings. Remember Black Gem of Gnar from 5th edition? This Spite is possibly worse as it allows your character to strike freely while the enemy has to roll a 6 to hit.


As for the wardancers/etc. Well, obviously they've been destroyed by magic missiles. Or delayed by bats. Or wolves.
Magic Missiles? Wardancers have MR (1). Bats? Can't enter forests. Wolves? Those will last very long against WS6 A2 (3 with +1A dance) models...

Akuma
09-07-2005, 07:56
As for the wardancers/etc. Well, obviously they've been destroyed by magic missiles. Or delayed by bats. Or wolves. Or eaten by a small boy named Kevin.

No no no - Magic missile - disspeled or necromancers kiled with H.T and PoS
Bats eaten by warhawks
Wolves shoot to death by scouts

You can write junk like that all you want but the throuth remains and it's on Anars side. Lods of armys rely on uber hereos and braking oponent with it ( chaos , Vc , Tk - and lods of armys with otherwise crapy core troops that are worthless after a charge ) - WE with alter lord deny that by making it impossible for those characters to acctualy score CR due to beeing involved in a chalange with a character thay hit on 6 , who has great ward save and so on - such alter is designed not to acctualy kill the enemy character but to prevent it from killing hitty but valnurable WE Cr makers ( namly Dryads , Wardancers , Wild Riders ). You'r post looks like a desperate atempt to show that you'r gamestyle will suffice for the new chalange that rewroten WE bring. - Go play MtG instead :D

PARTYCHICORITA
09-07-2005, 17:05
that works of course as long as the unit's champion isn't the one to accept the challenge :p (although BD are screwed indeed)

anarchistica
09-07-2005, 17:17
that works of course as long as the unit's champion isn't the one to accept the challenge :p (although BD are screwed indeed)
Thankfully, WE have a Spite (Pageant of Shrikes) and a magic weapon (The Hunter's Talon) that both let you target single models in units. Both cost 25 points, as does Annoyance of Netlings...

Voss
10-07-2005, 05:09
No no no - Magic missile - disspeled or necromancers kiled with H.T and PoS
Bats eaten by warhawks
Wolves shoot to death by scouts

You can write junk like that all you want but the throuth remains and it's on Anars side. Lods of armys rely on uber hereos and braking oponent with it ( chaos , Vc , Tk - and lods of armys with otherwise crapy core troops that are worthless after a charge ) - WE with alter lord deny that by making it impossible for those characters to acctualy score CR due to beeing involved in a chalange with a character thay hit on 6 , who has great ward save and so on - such alter is designed not to acctualy kill the enemy character but to prevent it from killing hitty but valnurable WE Cr makers ( namly Dryads , Wardancers , Wild Riders ). You'r post looks like a desperate atempt to show that you'r gamestyle will suffice for the new chalange that rewroten WE bring. - Go play MtG instead :D

No, my last post is largely sarcasm, to poke fun at something I find funny.

In all seriousness, I don't find the alter all that impressive. It can be useful in some situations, I admit. But the alter kindred upgrade, by itself, isn't the great savior of Elf characters, which will force all races to bow to the godliness of the elven way. (which some people, and no one in particular, seem to be touting)

In fact, looking carefully at anarchistica's build, the main thrust isn't dependant on being an alter kindred. Its the combination of items and sprites that causes the majority of effects. (the +1 attack is a nice bonus, but thats all). And the inclusion of the great weapon, IMO, is a potential vulnerability, since against a character that doesn't have one, you'll be sacrificing that lovely elf initiative, and having a strength greater than 5 is worthless against this particular combo. (ward save negates the armor modifier, only has a normal save of 5+, and is wounded at 2+ at S5 anyway, so that blood dragon would be better off with 2 hw, or a low cost magic weapon)

But in any case, a normal elf lord on horse would be almost as effective in this role as the alter. On the upside, he could take a unit, standard (and possibly warbanner) with him at a slight lessening of free manueverability, and some minor losses, and won't be as vulnerable to magical and ranged attacks. (the unit can soak that damage, rather than risking a lucky shot on what is, in the end, a toughness 3 character). Yes, you do lose some options. Its slightly harder to pick your target, and you lose some ws and an attack. (You're already forfeiting the init upgrade).

And after all, if your intention is largely to tie up the enemy character, that extra attack isn't really worth that much. Just rely on that magic item combo on a standard character. You can save a few points.


finally, adding in the pageant or talon. You're relying on a lot of stuff to go exactly right with this thing. Plans rarely survive contact with the enemy after all. Gods forbid the enemy comes up with a counter strategy. Like a screening unit in front of his main one, so you can't shoot at his important stuff with impunity.

anarchistica
10-07-2005, 05:40
And the inclusion of the great weapon, IMO, is a potential vulnerability, since against a character that doesn't have one, you'll be sacrificing that lovely elf initiative, and having a strength greater than 5 is worthless against this particular combo. (ward save negates the armor modifier, only has a normal save of 5+, and is wounded at 2+ at S5 anyway, so that blood dragon would be better off with 2 hw, or a low cost magic weapon)
Oh yes, a character that is only hit on 6s and has a 3+ ward save sure is vulnerable if he strikes last. How could i not see that...


On the upside, he could take a unit, standard (and possibly warbanner)
An Alter can be supported too by such a unit...


slight lessening of free manueverability
Slight? A single model with 360 degree LOS is much more manueverable than a Lord in a unit.


won't be as vulnerable to magical and ranged attacks.
He's a skirmisher and there's the 5" rule. Oh, and the whole thing with forests helps too.


And after all, if your intention is largely to tie up the enemy character, that extra attack isn't really worth that much. Just rely on that magic item combo on a standard character. You can save a few points.
You can't really expect anyone to take on a BD Count and beat him to pulp, but this guy gets close and any other characters will be much easier targets so the +1A comes in handy there.


finally, adding in the pageant or talon. You're relying on a lot of stuff to go exactly right with this thing. Plans rarely survive contact with the enemy after all. Gods forbid the enemy comes up with a counter strategy. Like a screening unit in front of his main one, so you can't shoot at his important stuff with impunity.
Heh, wait till you see the book, screening WE is not very easy. ;)

Akuma
10-07-2005, 08:27
@Voss - If you'r beeing sarcastic post :rolleyes: - it will make things clerer.

As for Alter kindred I Fully agree - he's not the best character in chalange mover :D - there is one combination that is much more flexible - more surviable and all - and nobody thought of it ( I've pposted it int WE Tactica - which got deleted - thx Zeb Bored1 and Riddy )

Wardancer kindred + Blades of Loeac + Annoyance of nettlings - Then just fill up with the protective item you find most interesting ( you have 40 pts for that ) - Remember that he can have 4+ ward from dance every other turn and he has like 5 attacks with KB Reroling to wound roles :D - so acctualy the less S the better ( same goes for T ) - there is nice item that gives you 2+ ward for you'r last wound - in chalanges and beeing hit only on 6 this can be Very nice coupled with KB and Ward Dance.

On the Alter - I would have to say that the fact that he can be picked out from a unit with a cannon ball , magic and stuff like that is a little bit unplesant as magic heavy armys will make short work of him in no time - so I'd rather go for supportive role with him - make this Hunters Talon and Helm of the Hunt - ( GW and Light armour also ) - You've got char that can get good snipe posiotion and change it fast - and when oe of you'r unit is charging he can help with lets see 5A on 6S - I would say not bad for 145 hero :)

And in addition to that you can also pack Wardancer General - now then you have best of both worlds - you have Strong Character Kiling and Infantry mover ( in charge 6 attacks on 5S ??? ) which can be hidden in wardancer units so much more probable he'll make it alive. And Fast Supportive sniper that can charge even with fast cav boosting CR aginst T units.

risK
10-07-2005, 12:19
An Alter can be supported too by such a unit...


Slight? A single model with 360 degree LOS is much more manueverable than a Lord in a unit.



supported, yes, but the ride can join it

the rider profits of fast cavallery, so manueverability is nearly as good

kanluwen
10-07-2005, 18:12
Trust me. Characters in units=not safe. At bloody all. Waywatcher Kindred Highborn with Hunter's Talon,Amarathine Brooch and Resplendence of Luminesence. Magic attacks with his hand weapons that can target characters able to deploy with Waywatchers, 3+ ward save versus nonmagical attacks. I'm set :p

Voss
10-07-2005, 19:40
Heh.

@akuma. I figure any mention of small boys named Kevin removing units from the table is automatic sarcasm.

@anarchistica General statement. Pay attention to words like slight, potential, and things of that nature. At this point your just quibbling with some of your responses.

Second, if you're forcing the alter to stay with 5" of another unit, you're lessening his manueverability yourself.

Terms like vulnerable- lucky dice rolls come up a lot in warhammer. Your build minimizes a lot of risks, but doesn't eliminate them. In some cases (killing blow, some magical attacks, mutiple wound causing weapons, giants, etc) one lucky blow is all they need.

Lastly, if you really want to focus on character avoidance, you don't need a character at all. Hit them in the flanks with your fast units. Wild Riders, Dryads, & Wardancers are particularly good choices. The enemy character can't get involved until his next round (assuming they don't break). If you're really paranoid about the enemy character getting involved in the second round, take a noble with annoyance of netlings. You get the major effect with ~150 points to spare. Remember characters can only issue/accept challenges if they're involved in the combat (base to base with enemies). All the WE attack units are manueverable enough to avoid characters initially (except maybe treekin).

Oh, almost forgot.

Heh, wait till you see the book, screening WE is not very easy.

Can you back this rather vague statement up with something?
A 20 block of zombies (going from the blood dragon example again) isn't exactly the easiest thing to destroy with missile fire.

Thanks.

anarchistica
10-07-2005, 20:11
@anarchistica General statement. Pay attention to words like slight, potential, and things of that nature. At this point your just quibbling with some of your responses.
Wait, weren't you the guy who called a great weapon a vulnerability on a model that is only hit on 6s and has a 3+ ward save? And the guy who seems to think S5 models would want anything but a great weapon?

;)


Second, if you're forcing the alter to stay with 5" of another unit, you're lessening his manueverability yourself.
WE have Scouts, a magic item that allows them to teleport and a spell that makes a unit move 2D6. Staying within 5" of an infantry unit is easy.


Terms like vulnerable- lucky dice rolls come up a lot in warhammer. Your build minimizes a lot of risks, but doesn't eliminate them. In some cases (killing blow, some magical attacks, mutiple wound causing weapons, giants, etc) one lucky blow is all they need.
Read my lips. Only hit on 6s in a challenge. Remember what was so annoying about the last incarnation of the Dryads? Giants really aren't any good against WE. Their bows are S4 within 15" now, that's double the chance to wound a Giant.


Lastly, if you really want to focus on character avoidance, you don't need a character at all. Hit them in the flanks with your fast units.
Flanking has become a lots less viable option, Wardancers can't negate ranks, Glade Riders only have a 6+ save and Warhawks can't have a standard.


All the WE attack units are manueverable enough to avoid characters initially (except maybe treekin).
Wardancers, Dryads, Wild Riders, etc are Immune to Psychology, it's alot harder to avoid characters if you can't flee from a charge.


Can you back this rather vague statement up with something?
A 20 block of zombies (going from the blood dragon example again) isn't exactly the easiest thing to destroy with missile fire.
See above. Also, Wardancers can deal more easily with those (3A WS6 S4) and WE now have 2 Magic Missiles that are S5 near/in forests. You can't keep hiding behind the screen indefinetely and Dire Wolves also make a better screening unit...

Voss
11-07-2005, 04:42
Hmm. I think that werely largely bumping up against incompatible play-styles. We aren't going to convince each other because how we play is different.

the greatweapon thing- against wood elves (not necessarily forest spirits) it is largely a vulnerablity, with little benefit. They don't have high armor saves and the toughness is locked at 3. So forcing yourself to always strike last when you can easily wound on 2+ from other weapon options (or non at all, depending on the race) is a bad thing. That isn't quibbling, that's a basic strategy that works fairly well against all elves, and WE especially so since they have almost no armor available to them.

And a 1 in 6 chance is in no way untouchable. neither is a 2 in 3 wardsave. Its good protection, but I prefer something that feels a little less 'all or nothing'. You can tie up a character with a model thats between 250-300 points, and tie it up well. I prefer using those points for something a little more universal (like more troops). Or a nicely hard unit of wild riders that can negate rank bonuses.

But, in the end, the availability of different play styles is a plus for the new book.

So, cheers.

Naghaz
11-07-2005, 14:41
the greatweapon thing- against wood elves (not necessarily forest spirits) it is largely a vulnerablity, with little benefit. They don't have high armor saves and the toughness is locked at 3. So forcing yourself to always strike last when you can easily wound on 2+ from other weapon options (or non at all, depending on the race) is a bad thing. That isn't quibbling, that's a basic strategy that works fairly well against all elves, and WE especially so since they have almost no armor available to them.




You are right of course, but as a Druchii player I can honestly say my great weapon armed highborns are never supposed to see a second round of combat. Anytime I arm a hero with a weapon that negates his/her inititive my plan is to tandem strike whatever opponent they are going up against and in such a way that there will be little doubt as to the outcome.

Of course things go wrong once the dice start rolling, and from time to time I get stuck in for longer than that. But overall it's worked extermely well and has helped me secure more than a few tournament victories.

It is however an issue of playstyle. For many players, negating the high init of an Elf seems rediculous. First off you pay for the high attribute with the cost of the model, thus why take it completely out of the equation? In the end its up to each player to come up with a style that works for them. As you stated in the end, the WE book seems to allow for a lot of different playstyles which is a trend I really hope GW keeps up.