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View Full Version : Lines of sight and shooting in ranks in 7th edition



Gazak Blacktoof
08-09-2006, 22:18
Most of what I've read in the new rule books seems very clear and concise. The one section I'm having major problems with is shooting in ranks. I'm entirely unsure how many ranks a unit may shoot in if aiming at a large target or if in an elevated position/ shooting at troops in an elevated position.

The rules state:


Units on a hill can draw line of sight from an elevated position and they can always shoot (and be shot at) over models that are not on a hill, in the same way as described for large targets.

I take this to mean that units on hills shoot as if they were targetting large targets all the time (not +1 to hit) and similarly can always be picked out as if they were large targets i.e. they will always have clear lines of sight over interposing models and can always be seen over interposing models.




Large targets can draw a line of sight over interposing models that are not large targets themselves. Orcs and goblins can't block line of sight to a Giant (large target), for example! This works the other way around as well, for example a Dragon (large target) can be seen and shot as by enemy models over interposing friendly models that are not large targets, even by models in the back ranks of a unit of troops armed with missile weapons.

Models in the back ranks of units can see large targets over the heads of other models in their unit. From the rule given for Hills and elevated positions I take it that units on hills can see and be seen in all ranks as well? This section explicitly states that individual models can see large targets, this is relevant as if it only concerned unit line of sight only the first rank would be covere, see the line of sight section below.

The only relevant paragraphs in the shooting section read as follows




The rules for determing a unit's line of sight are given on bage 8, but in the case of shooting, each model firing need to be able to see its target (instead of using the entire unit's line of sight).

Continued in Missile Fire From Hills



Troops on a hill are considered to be in a good position to fire, so can fire with one additional rank compared to missile armed troops on flat ground. For example, a unit of archers can shoot with its first two ranks when standing on a hill.

Troops on a hill can also draw their line of sight over models that are not on a hill. This works the other way round of course, making models on a hill visible to models that are not on a hill over intervening models, even over models in the same unit (see page 9 - Hills & Elevated Position).


This either implies that units on hills can be shot at in all ranks but may return fire in only 2 :wtf: . Or you could ignore the first paragraph (as an error) and assume that units on hills can shoot and be shot at in all ranks.

Any guesses as to what this means?

marv335
08-09-2006, 22:34
what it means is that units on hills may fire in two ranks instead of the usual one rank that would be able to fire if they were on the flat.

Festus
09-09-2006, 07:24
Hi

Units on hills are not at all comparable to large targets.

They have LoS over interposing units on lower ground, and can shoot in two ranks (all ranks can shoot at a large target).

They can be shot at by untis on lower ground over interposing units.

Festus

Gazak Blacktoof
09-09-2006, 07:59
Units on hills are not at all comparable to large targets.

That isn't what the rules state...


Units on a hill can draw line of sight from an elevated position and they can always shoot (and be shot at) over models that are not on a hill, in the same way as described for large targets.


They have LoS over interposing units on lower ground, and can shoot in two ranks (all ranks can shoot at a large target).

They can be shot at by untis on lower ground over interposing units.

Festus

But they can be shot at in all ranks though?

This is the implication of this paragraph.



Troops on a hill can also draw their line of sight over models that are not on a hill. This works the other way round of course, making models on a hill visible to models that are not on a hill over intervening models, even over models in the same unit (see page 9 - Hills & Elevated Position).

eldrak
09-09-2006, 08:20
A unit on a hill can shoot in two ranks at any other unit (even if target is uphill) and can pick targets that would normally be screened on lower ground.

Units shooting at targets on higher ground (or large targets) can fire in all ranks.

DeathlessDraich
09-09-2006, 08:59
3 slightly different conclusions derived from the same rules.
I can see how each conclusion has been made and its apparent validity. The rules are poorly worded!

Gazak Blacktoof
09-09-2006, 09:23
A unit on a hill can shoot in two ranks at any other unit (even if target is uphill) and can pick targets that would normally be screened on lower ground.

Units shooting at targets on higher ground (or large targets) can fire in all ranks.

This is what the rules indicate to me as well, though this seems counter intuitive.

DeathlessDraich
09-09-2006, 09:57
Just got my 7th!
pg9: "This means that models in the rear ranks of units on the flat may shoot against models standing on a hill"

A change in the rules but it's clear enough.
More realistic I think. It reduces the previous protection of shooters on the hill.

Avian
09-09-2006, 10:02
It is indeed a somewhat odd rule. A model in the third rank on a hill can see over models on a lower level, though he cannot shoot at them, though the guy in front of him can. Meanwhile, a model in the third rank on the ground below can both see and shoot at a target on a hill.

DeathlessDraich
09-09-2006, 11:19
Well.. I've interpreted it slightly differently
The second rank can see through the first rank on a hill but the 3rd rank cannot see through the second and 1st rank. Hence only 2 ranks can shoot.
In addition, only first 2 ranks can see over any unit or model at lower levels and can target all models at lower levels. 3rd ranks etc are blocked by models at the same level or height.
Conversely, using seeing = being seen, all models at lower levels can see the First and second rank on the hill only.
When They shoot, all models at lower levels are targeting just the front 2 ranks of an archer unit on the hill.

Festus
09-09-2006, 11:31
Hi

Had a read in my new book: Yes, missile units can indeed fire on a unit on a hill in ALL ranks.

And Draich: YOu don't shoot at ranks, you shoot at units. If your target has ranks or not don't matter a bit.

Greetings
Festus

English 2000
09-09-2006, 19:46
My interpretation is as follows:


Archers at Ground Level vs Large target - all models can shoot regardless of which rank they are in.

Archers at ground level vs Unit on Hill - all models can shoot regardless of which rank they are in.

Archers at ground level vs non-large target - only models in the first rank can shoot

Archers on hill vs large target - all models can shoot regardless of which rank they are in.

Archers on hill vs non-large target - models in the first two ranks can shoot

I'm quite happy about this change - I like to take my Bretonnian Bowmen in units of 16 with full command in an 8x2 formation. Now when I don't get a hill in my deployment zone I can still be effective at killing war machines/archers on hills fighting against me, as well as doubling my odds of wounding treemen and giants.

DeathlessDraich
09-09-2006, 19:52
Hi

And Draich: YOu don't shoot at ranks, you shoot at units. If your target has ranks or not don't matter a bit.

Greetings
Festus

Yes, I know but I found it easier to explain in terms of ranks because of the mutual nature of LOS which created the diffrences in interpretation in the first place.

hertz
09-09-2006, 21:12
having read trough the rules a few times, I think I also have come to the conclusion that English 2000 explained 2 posts up.

gonna be interessting to see how this changes gameplay
(and yay! shooting have, indirectly, been strenghtened all over!)

NakedFisherman
09-09-2006, 23:11
If a unit's first rank is on a flat and its second and third ranks are on a hill, I assume they can fire in three ranks against non-large targets on the flat. True?

Peegore
10-09-2006, 09:19
I have always assumed as you do NakedFisherman. As have the group I game with.

Otherwise, English2000 has pretty much summed it all up.

Gazak Blacktoof
10-09-2006, 19:38
Well I'll go with what English says seems right from the rules as written. Not so sure about firing in 3 ranks if 1 rank is on a flat though. The unit is just considered to be "on a hill" so the normal 2 ranks can fire. If you want to shoot over troops in front of you i guess only 1 rank (the one in the elevated position) could fire.

English 2000
11-09-2006, 04:56
Well I'll go with what English says seems right from the rules as written. Not so sure about firing in 3 ranks if 1 rank is on a flat though. The unit is just considered to be "on a hill" so the normal 2 ranks can fire. If you want to shoot over troops in front of you i guess only 1 rank (the one in the elevated position) could fire.

Yeah, that kinda sends my mind back to 4th ed where you could have two ranks firing if you were on a 2 tiered hill and one rank was on a higher tier...but the rules for hills have been streamlined a little now.

Voss
11-09-2006, 06:45
There is no reason to think that is the case from what's written in the book. Barring other rules coming into play (high elves), if the unit is on a hill, 2 ranks can fire- anything else is simply an incorrect inference of how someone thinks things should work.

Gorbad Ironclaw
11-09-2006, 07:42
If a unit's first rank is on a flat and its second and third ranks are on a hill, I assume they can fire in three ranks against non-large targets on the flat. True?


Not really. At least there are nothing in the rules that says so. If you are on a hill you can shoot with the first 2 ranks of the unit. Not with the first two ranks on a hill.

Aside from this English is correct.


And DeathlessDraich, what on earth have units on low ground only targeting the first two ranks to do with anything? (aside from it not being correct)

NakedFisherman
11-09-2006, 15:15
Not really. At least there are nothing in the rules that says so. If you are on a hill you can shoot with the first 2 ranks of the unit. Not with the first two ranks on a hill.

Don't they state that two ranks can fire? I don't remember it specifying the first two ranks...

Festus
11-09-2006, 17:44
Hi

Don't they state that two ranks can fire? I don't remember it specifying the first two ranks...
The rules say *one addtional rank*, so no fire in three ranks if partly on a hill. 1 rank + 1 additional rank = 2 ranks. Period.

Festus