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malika
10-09-2006, 13:11
I noticed this ancient thread by ML Kurze about creating an armylist for pre Imperial empires, and well I was pondering about throwing some ideas in there or at least trying to get a better picture of pre Imperial humanity.

Yes they had superior equipment, but at the same time they didnt. What weapons and vehicles did they already have and which were created during and after the Great Crusade?

For vehicles Im sure they had:
-Rhinos (and probably several variants, also ones we dont see anymore)
-Titans

Im not sure on the Land Raiders, eventhough they are an STC design (and thus pre Imperial) they seemed to have been discovered by Magos Land (after which the tank was named)...so where they used before the Great Crusade? What about Robots? (not AI but like the ones in Rogue Trader?)

For weapons Im sure they had autoguns and lasguns, MK1 and MK@ plasma weaponry would also be in place. For close combat weaponry I assume they would use powerblades and chainweapons.

But yeah...help is needed to get everything together!

damz451
10-09-2006, 13:59
I think pretty much everything was used before the imperium and a lot more, the only exceptions i can think of are custom made vehicles (such as crusaders). Also titans were designed and created on forgeworlds, one of the few vehicles that were created without an stc

malika
10-09-2006, 14:08
True, but wouldnt it be that the pre Crusade Titans were different marks than the current more squared shape Titans we see today?

Also, would local worlds in that time produce Titans of their own to fight against the Great Crusade for example?

Brother Smith
10-09-2006, 14:12
Anything you want. Literally.

There was no uniform technology, it was even more varied than it is in the Imperium.

malika
10-09-2006, 14:13
Right...but some weaponry and vehicles didnt exist yet, Im trying to figure out which ones were available and which ones werent. For example the Predator Annihilator wasnt available to after the Horus Heresy. Certain types of Titans (the more current models made by FW for example) were created later on. (I dont know if that was after or before the Great Crusade)

Stormbolters werent created until after the Horus Heresy, before that you had combi bolters, Terminator armour and Power armour used by the Space Marines developped during the Great Crusade, before that Power Armour probably had the capabilities of Carapace Armour.

Mechanicus
10-09-2006, 14:29
Right, well, they would have had everything that would have been on an STC and probably more.

So, that's:

Castigator autonomous bipedal weapons platform (From Dark Adeptus. I couldn't tell you whether it was a Titan or just a walking gun platform, unfortunately)

Leman Russ with variety of weapons variants

Baneblades, Fellblades, Stormblades, Shadowswords etc. (Not Stormswords though)

Chimera and variants

Sentinels and variants?

Lightning fighters

Marauder fighters

Furies

Rhinos

Land Raider (Minus certain variants, I'll get back to you on those)

At the very least. I'll check for the Titan stuff and see about that, but those are all I can think of off the top of my head.

Hope I helped!

EDIT: Well, all the Mk 1's on this page (http://www.netepic.org/GALLERY/view_album.php?set_albumName=album11) would have been in use, as far as I can find. Aesthetically, many Titans would have been different due to local materials, etc.

Brother Smith
10-09-2006, 14:29
Right...but some weaponry and vehicles didnt exist yet, Im trying to figure out which ones were available and which ones werent. For example the Predator Annihilator wasnt available to after the Horus Heresy. Certain types of Titans (the more current models made by FW for example) were created later on. (I dont know if that was after or before the Great Crusade)

Stormbolters werent created until after the Horus Heresy, before that you had combi bolters, Terminator armour and Power armour used by the Space Marines developped during the Great Crusade, before that Power Armour probably had the capabilities of Carapace Armour.

But there would have been equivalents, and many different versions and designs of them.

Minister
10-09-2006, 14:36
I suppose the main question to ask is which period you're looking at, and which area? Dark Age of Technology? Age of Strife? Earth? Core Worlds? Outer Rim?

malika
10-09-2006, 14:38
I assume that humanity wasnt as supersticious with their technology as they are now, hence no big giant rituals to use certain weapons or vehicles like the Adeptus Mechanicus does now. This could mean that people would create their local variations, however I think it would have been more improvised than for example a Predator Annihilator. Perhaps we could see the return of vehicles such as the Spartan Land Raider and that Rhino with an earthshaker like cannon in the hull.

Elements which would later on become the Legio Cybernetica might be present on worlds, so imagine those weird Rogue Trader robots running around.

What about dreadnoughts? Would they be in, or were these machines which have been designed purely for Space Marines?


I suppose the main question to ask is which period you're looking at, and which area? Dark Age of Technology? Age of Strife? Earth? Core Worlds? Outer Rim?

Good point you make there! I assume technology from the Dark Age of Technology and the Age of Strife, since well..they used the same technology sort of. The Age of Strife might have been more improvised and degenerating due to the war against the Iron Men and the manifestation of uncontrolled psykers. As for worlds, the STC's were used throughout the galaxy where humanity went, so the basis would probably have been the same, only with local variations.

malika
10-09-2006, 20:22
What about really high tech goodies such as Iron Halos, vortex grenades, digital weapons and all those other interesting goodies? Were these common in pre Imperial times (turned into rare relic today) or have they always been really rare for DAoT forces? I always assumed that the forces from these times were way more advanced than the current Imperium and would fight more in the way the Tau would fight instead of the IG now.

Nazguire
11-09-2006, 08:14
What about really high tech goodies such as Iron Halos, vortex grenades, digital weapons and all those other interesting goodies? Were these common in pre Imperial times (turned into rare relic today) or have they always been really rare for DAoT forces? I always assumed that the forces from these times were way more advanced than the current Imperium and would fight more in the way the Tau would fight instead of the IG now.


Yeah, they were all there, in varying amounts. And the Imperium has always fought like the Imperium, with exception to the Astartes. When you have such large numbers of man power, like the Imperium, you can 'afford' to use attrition as a strategy for every battle.

Not way more advanced in technology per se, but the availability was far more equal. Example, Land Raiders were available to Imperial Guard in large numbers, whereas nowadays, only the Space Marines have them. Anti-gravitic technology was available to the IG, whereas nowadays it is only available to the Astartes and higher echelon Imperial society (such as the AdMech)

malika
11-09-2006, 18:07
And the Imperium has always fought like the Imperium, with exception to the Astartes.
I wasnt talking about the Imperium, I was talking about pre Imperial military forces, they had smaller numbers and from time to time more exotic equipment...I assume that they would also have used different tactics than the Imperial Army which could fight like the Imperial Guard does now, but probably on a greater scale since each regiment also had its own fleet support.

lapis_lazuli
11-09-2006, 18:25
According to Codex: Witch Hunters, digi-weapons were developed by the Jokaero as some kind of tribute to the Imperium. No idea if pre-Imperial forces would have access to them.

malika
11-09-2006, 18:34
Tribute to the Imperium? Odd to see the Imperium accept a gift from a filthy Xenos species like that. I mean all other Xenos equipment the Imperium seems to use has been stolen. However it is still an interesting concept!:)

Kegluneq
11-09-2006, 18:44
They must have acquired the things somehow, and they even see Imperial patronage (ussed by Inquisitors and so forth regularly). My guess would be that Jokaeros are tolerated to the extent that they never try to assume the full rights of humans and never seek to leave their homeworld...

Zephro
11-09-2006, 19:12
Well wouldn't it have been totally different? As the different worlds/empires encountered during the great crusade showed great variety in technological levels. Wasn't there meant to be some really high tech (like proper sci fi not STC) factions that were brought back under control during the great crusade?

malika
11-09-2006, 19:26
The STC's were the basis ofall human colonisations throughout our Galaxy during the Dark Age of Technology. However I do believe that non STC technology was created by societies...but why do so if the STC would provide with everything needed?

Hideous Loon
11-09-2006, 20:18
malika: Maybe the scientists of those colonies were like scientists everywhere, curious, tinkering creatures who wanted to expand on the designs given.

malika
11-09-2006, 21:35
Of course this would also happen, however these would be the Stone Men IIRC instead of the Golden Men (who created the STC's), so in which ways are the Golden and Stone Men different?

lapis_lazuli
12-09-2006, 10:37
Oh no, not this again! ;)

Hideous Loon
12-09-2006, 12:14
malika: Yes, you've got a point there. The Stone Men are superstitious fools who couldn't tell one end of a wrench from the other, while the Golden Men are like the people of today. So why, then, are the AM so great when it comes to techy stuff? All those new gadgets cannot have been STC or reverse engineered techno-relics, can they?

malika
12-09-2006, 12:50
Why are the Stone Men like that? I mean how did the Stone Men exist?
As for the Adeptus Mechanicus, isnt it possible that the first members were Golden Men and later on they have educated Stone Men into thinking/working like them, however these Stone Men have their whole holy bit to it and turned the Adeptus Mechanicus even more towards the direction of a religion.

Mechanicus
12-09-2006, 15:40
It was said (I think in a BL book) that the golden men genetically engineered the stone men, and this is further alluded to in Xenology, in the Eldar section, where it is said that Eldar do not adapt to their environments, and they examine an Eldar skeleton from the fall and an Eldar pirate, and thhey hadn't changed over 10,000 years. A point is made of saying that only two other types of creatures do this: genetically engineered creatures and humans.

lapis_lazuli
12-09-2006, 21:08
There was a theory put forward in one of the other threads on this that the concept of Golden Men vs. Stone Men is just an artifice of confused Imperial scholars looking back at prehistory. Personally, I'm inclined to agree with that: there wasn't really a sharp distinction between the two groups, least of all genetically.

EDIT: Oh and as for the reference to human "genetic stability" in Xenology, I had that down as a reference to the Old Ones tinkering with us in eons past to make us that way.

Nazguire
13-09-2006, 07:33
The whole idea of Stone Men/Golden Men as seperate species is ridiculous in my opinion. Believe it was just a way of classifying the two, as it is quite possible that in this Golden Age of Technology human society, those with knowledge were treated as all powerful, as opposed to today where they are still respected, but it usually who is more popular that is in control.

malika
13-09-2006, 12:07
So its a cultural difference instead of a biological one?

Chiron
13-09-2006, 12:18
In WD when the Land Raider was first released that at the time of the heresy its use was a lot more widespread, even IG/PDF used them and they were restricted to marines after the heresy

malika
13-09-2006, 12:50
Yes the Land Raiders were used through the Imperial military during the Great Crusade, however during the Heresy the Traitors managed to take hold of the single planet that produces these tanks (that never made sense to me but ok) so then only the Space Marines were allowed to use them. Also makes me wonder if the Traitor Guard would have Land Raiders then...

Warden
13-09-2006, 16:38
Yes the Land Raiders were used through the Imperial military during the Great Crusade, however during the Heresy the Traitors managed to take hold of the single planet that produces these tanks (that never made sense to me but ok) so then only the Space Marines were allowed to use them. Also makes me wonder if the Traitor Guard would have Land Raiders then...

I believe the Forge World was Making Land Raiders Exclusively not that it was the only one, so the other Forge World’s couldn’t keep up with the demand now placed on them.

malika
13-09-2006, 17:28
I believe the Forge World was Making Land Raiders Exclusively not that it was the only one, so the other Forge World’s couldn’t keep up with the demand now placed on them.
Still doesnt make sense since the Imperium was still dependent on that one world for its production, eventhough other worlds produced them. Why wouldnt the Imperium figure out something smarter so if one world was lost the production could still go on at a reasonable rate instead of totally going down.

Nazguire
14-09-2006, 07:30
Still doesnt make sense since the Imperium was still dependent on that one world for its production, eventhough other worlds produced them. Why wouldnt the Imperium figure out something smarter so if one world was lost the production could still go on at a reasonable rate instead of totally going down.


It's GW trying to mangle the background enough to try and make it seem 'realistic' that a galactic empire with hundreds of worlds dedicated solely to manufacturing weapons of war, would be crippled or at least severely set back if one Forge World was taken over.

As it was said, they weren't dependent on that one Forge World. There still would have been plenty of Forge Worlds making the Land Raider. It is because that supplies were running low (having half your planets turn on you or have their populations butchered constantly does that to you) and that only those who could make full use of their potential (Astartes) were allowed them.

Then it comes down to Imperial beaurecracy. Since no one rescinded the order, no one bothered to do any different. God knows the IG would be better off with Land Raiders in their arsenal just as well as the Astartes.