PDA

View Full Version : Differences between Chaos and normal Marines



UltimateNagash
10-09-2006, 17:53
OK, I've thought about the background of the Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines, and thought I would pose a few questions to you (both background and rules wise):

Why haven't Chaos Marines been able to make things like Land Speeders, Attack Bikes, Vindicators etc and Plasma Cannons and Multi Multas (all the things that normal Marines have that Chaos doesn't). This is just in background terms.
Who uses Land Speeders and Razorbacks anyway?
Why are Chaos Marines not subject to "Thou shalt not no fear" or whatever it's called? And is having better Leadership a good compenstion?

I'm sure I'll come up with more questions later, but that's all for now...

mooserehab86
10-09-2006, 17:59
While some of those things may seem questionable in terms of fluff, I think the main reason for the differences is so that loyalist marines have some advantages over chaos marines. It would make sense for chaos to have access to most, if not all of the same equipment, and to have the same special rules. However, if this were the case, chaos would be superior to the marines and there would be no reason (as far as gameplay is concerned) to use loyalist marines instead of chaos. They would both be essentially the same army, except chaos would have the additional options of demons, raptors, possessed, and other unique units. GW wanted to provide a good reason to collect marines, even if it doesn't necessarily fit with the fluff.

Kjell
10-09-2006, 18:08
Basically, in 2nd edition Chaos had access to Imperial weaponry but at +25% cost. This was to show pillaging, new traitors, etc. Nowadays something like this is possibly considered too complicated both to balance and to actually use.

As for why Chaos Marines don't have any special rules except higher Ld... Well, the stuff they've seen (and done) has pretty much broken them but also made them well 'ard. :p Also, Chaos Marines are much more selfish. They strive for a higher goal, sure, but they do it based on purely personal motivations. Hatred as opposed to duty.

So of course they'll want to save their own hides when things go pear-shaped. :p

UltimateNagash
10-09-2006, 18:09
That's fair enough.
On another note, is the entire reason Daemons need to be summoned is the distance from the Eye of Terror. Surely if near to a planet like Cadia they don't need to be summoned?
As although Daemons weaken from getting futher away, surely that wouldn't be a great enough distance.
Also, does anyone know what's happening with the Assualt weaponary, and rending (the whole SM have a Rending Assault Cannon, yet no other armies dont'). Surely CSM should get this as well? (If this has been FAQed, sorry, I haven't seen that).

Xander-K
10-09-2006, 18:28
Chaos don't have assault cannons, so how would they have rending?? unless you are talking about Daemonettes here?

Vanger
10-09-2006, 18:46
-They left for the Eye of Terror more than 10 millenia ago. They spent that time there with ploting Black Crusades, fighting each other, fighting others, etc. No time or motivation for progress. And do remember, that the loyalist scum (A.K.A. SM) didn't progress technologicaly, they only rediscovered some STCs (or what the hell are the universal constructions plans called).
It could be stated, that CSM remained on the tech level of the heresy.
-Who uses Landspeeders anyway? You're joking right? :wtf:
-Undivided CSM gets to reroll Ld 10 (if they take MoCU), Demagogue, Icon of CU makes troops Fearless. Cult CSM are simply Fearless. No need for ATSKNF. And btw they are fear incarnate, so if they know themselves, they know fear :D
-The Eye of Terror is a region of space where the there is no border between the Warp and realspace, so everywhere outside of the EoT, daemons need a gateway (read: need to be summoned) to realspace from the warp.
-CSM could loot SM equipment, but would they understand it? Maybe IW or AL (first is very technologicaly inclined, second spends lot of time in Imperial space), but not the others. But who knows what tere will be in the new codicies...

Any questions? ;)

UltimateNagash
10-09-2006, 18:46
Sorry, I mean the autocannons...Or am I just confusing them up?

Also, are CSM Dreadnaughts meant to be able to use multi meltas and plasma cannons, as in my 80 page codex with all 9 different legions in, it says they can. I just said what was in the codex so people knew I had the new one...

Vanger
10-09-2006, 19:08
You mean, why CSM have Autocannons, and only IG uses them? Dunno maybe it's considered "outdated" by SM forces.
But be aware that the the Assault cannon evolved form the Reaper Autocannon.
And also the weapon systems on the vehicles mean not that they have them for in useable form for troops.

Scythe
10-09-2006, 19:16
Remember that marines do NOT develop their equipment themselves (alright, that is not entirely true either, crusador and baal patterns were originally marine ideas if I remember correctly, but then those were only weapons swaps). Weapons like land speeders, razorbacks, plasma cannons, multi-meltas etc were rediscovered by the adeptus mechanicus after the hersey, and quite sensibly they didn't share their discoveries with their chaos counterparts.

Chaos, on the other hand, is way to busy being evil overlords to search for lost technologies...:p

Dreachon
10-09-2006, 19:28
They don't need to, with the aid of renegade techpriest the chaos legions can do far more, they can create their own weapons, just take an example of the defiler, hell talon and hellblade, they have more than enough power to build new weapons from scratch without needing to go and search for lost tech and don't forget many lost tech is still in the hands of the taitor legions, like the despoiler was based on the design of the Terminus Est.

UltimateNagash
10-09-2006, 19:35
What are the Hell Blade/Talon, and what's the Despoiler (not Abbadon)?

Also, could people confirm that a CSM can or cannot take a Multi Melta or Plasma Cannon?

Tonberry
10-09-2006, 19:40
What are the Hell Blade/Talon, and what's the Despoiler (not Abbadon)?

Also, could people confirm that a CSM can or cannot take a Multi Melta or Plasma Cannon?


Hell Blade/Tallon are Chaos fighters, available from Forgeworld. Despoiler is a class of battleship.
CSM dreads can take Multi Meltas and Plasma Cannons, havocs and the like cannot.

Scythe
10-09-2006, 19:47
Indeed. The man-portable versions of these weapons are not available to chaos, as they haden't been rediscovered yet. (could be wrong, but I thought chaos dreads didn't had access to multi-meltas either)...

bnf
10-09-2006, 19:50
could be wrong, but I thought chaos dreads didn't had access to multi-meltas either

Nope, they can use them.

Skyth
10-09-2006, 23:29
It's more a matter of 'flavor' of the armies. Space Marines excel at shooting matches. Chaos is set more towards assaulting. Having every army have identical options would make a balanced game, but would get boring quick.

BrainFireBob
11-09-2006, 00:29
skyth is probably correct, but fluffwise-

Some things were discovered after the Heresy, other things- Speeders and assault cannons in particular- are superior, however, they are far more difficult to maintain, requiring exotic hardware/specialist support, which CSMs don't necessarily have the facilities for.

EXAMPLE:
The most common kinds of CSM power armor (as I recall) are the two most easily serviced and maintained.

EXAMPLE:
The assault cannon is prone to jamming- note the description of the BAAL Predator gun- a nightmare for the Techpriests.

Summation:
I'd say CSMs possess still the tech level of the heresy (higher than Imperium, generally) but are essentially operating at a "battelfield repair" level for things that, frankly, ain't broke. Their limited R&D resource goes into things like the Planet Killer and Daemon weapons, etc.

chris_valera
11-09-2006, 02:09
It's been answered a little bit, but the CSMs went rougue ages ago, before certain things had been developed. Other things require constant maintenance and so have fallen out of use. The Death Guard makes specific mention of how their vehicles have been broken down, but that's to be expected, I guess.

My personal theory is that Chaos corrupts everything, including machinery and mechanized parts. CSM power armor only works because it's been bonded to the user, and in the case of the Thousand Sons, there's no way they would recharge their power supply (probably)

My theory is that stuff has to be demonically posesses, or corrupted to still work, which is why "real" things like jump packs dont work as well.

I was annoyed to see jump packs in the latest CSM book, and annoyed to see the ordnance-carrying Defiler. I think each side should have it's own flavor, and not getting all the toys the loyalist marines had was balanced out by demons and the rest.

--Chris
*********************

GrimZAG
11-09-2006, 03:52
Why haven't Chaos Marines been able to make things like Land Speeders, Attack Bikes, Vindicators etc and Plasma Cannons and Multi Multas (all the things that normal Marines have that Chaos doesn't). This is just in background terms.
Who uses Land Speeders and Razorbacks anyway?
Why are Chaos Marines not subject to "Thou shalt not no fear" or whatever it's called? And is having better Leadership a good compenstion?
[/LIST]


Things like land speeders, attack bikes, vindicators were "invented" after the Horus heresey, and as chaos marines don't invent things they don't have access to this stuff, they can use plasma and melta weaponry though

The chaos marines don't have the space marine special rule because they have been "chaosified" and would run from danger than stand and fight, because they're the bad guys, that's why they are only 14 points instead of the space marine 15 pts.

Drogmir
11-09-2006, 03:56
Ah I remember reading somewhere that the fact that they live in the warp means they can't access new tehcnology past the Horus Heresy. Thus no assult cannons Landspeeders Artificer armour and such.

The and they shall know no fear is a psyhic connection between the Emperor and his marines allowing them to you know never be caught in a sweeping advance. Since Chaos Marines are traitors the emperor cut off his connection with them. Since they now are connected to the Chaos Gods.

BrainFireBob
11-09-2006, 06:04
The one piece of wargear one is surprised is missing from the Chaos dex, though, is combi-plasma. What, they couldn't strap a plasma pistol to a combi-bolter? That's all many modellers do . . .

insectum7
11-09-2006, 06:24
Despite the fact that many chapters have fallen to chaos since the Horus Heresy, and probably brought much of their equipment with them, I always figured that they had trouble maintaining some of the more infrastructure heavy weapon systems. Loyalist marines tend to be deployed in specific fashions, and are backed up by a hefty amount of logistics and support systems. It seems to me that chaos is somewhat more uhhh, chaotic, and is continuously fighting in a more improvised, unpredictable and ad-hoc manner. So they would take weapons which were simpler to maintain and less reliant on supporting repair specialists. It would also help that they took weapons which used the common types of ammunition used by their enemies. So bolt weapons, autocannons and battlecannons would seem like good choices because those weapons are tremendously popular in the average Imperial army.

muskrat
11-09-2006, 07:33
Certain looter Legions make use of Imperial equipment fluffwise- Alpha Legion, for example. In order to make it convincing enough, they'd have to be able to repair the tanks etc.

As such, I use VDR to represent "looted" vehicles onm the tabletop- I have a landspeeder and razorback in my army. Also, using VDR, i have made a new fighter using flyer rules- showing off the tricks and such my corrupted techpriests and cultist mechanics have picked up looting impie vehicles.

Latro_
11-09-2006, 12:29
in the second ed chaos plasma weapons overheated because at the time of the herecy such weapons were new and unreliable. of course now all plasma wapons overheat

chaos have suff like havoc launchers an chain axes which the imperium has forgotten how to make

UltimateNagash
11-09-2006, 15:04
It just seems to me that surely Chaos could come up with some floating daemon thing, far outstriping the land speeder.
I see that the Havoc Launcher works as a Whirlwind (as such).
Razorbacks aren't that good, and so wouldn't really need to be included.
Multi meltas and plasma cannons would be nice though, or have a daemonic equivalant.

Latro_
11-09-2006, 15:40
And the TSKNF thing is obvious. In that loyal marines are pshyco conditioned to be fearless, pretty much ziots. During the herecy marines although well trainned and pretty fearless but not stupidly so.