PDA

View Full Version : Your opinions of grand conflicts.



bertcom1
10-09-2006, 23:39
Necrons and the Ctan are supposed to be fighting against the Old Ones and their creations (Eldar and Orks).

Somehow, Humans and the Pariah gene are involved in this grand multimillion year conflict. Also stuff about Tyranids avoiding something possibly Ctan in origin. Nonsense about Tau and the Deceiver.

I don't like this thing where everyone is on one or other side of this conflict.


Personally, I would prefer it to be Old ones (Eldar+Orks) vs Ctan + Necrons.

The whole of everything else, Humans and Chaos, Tau and Tyranids are irrelevant to this conflict. They are meaningless in the context of the Old ones war.

I quite like the idea that humans and whether the Emperor or Chaos rules them is more or less irrelevant to who wins the Ctan/Old ones war. I think it is a nice bleak vision of insignificance.

Humans are not a weapon of the Ctan, they have no higher purpose, they just happened.
Tau are not a weapon of whoever, they have no significance, they just happened.
Tyranids are not a weapon, they just happened.
And so on.

Zephro
10-09-2006, 23:44
I just wish they'd never tried forcing the C'tan into the fluff atall because of this.

Drogmir
11-09-2006, 00:03
Well they pretty much all have a side in the Ctan/Old Ones war.

Humans- If the Ctan win they're screwed. If Old Ones and by that I really mean Eldar/ Orks since most of the Old Ones are dead if not all win then humanity's government is screwed.

Tau- Well they want to conquer the universe and such. Necrons win they're also screwed. Old Ones win they don't give a damn

Tyranids- They're just hungry and old ones and followers are eadiable. Last time I checked you couldn't eat a Necron

bertcom1
11-09-2006, 00:21
Yes, Humans, Tau and Tyranids would be affected by the war, but that does not mean that they should be able to significantly affect the result.

I prefer the idea that if there is some great conflict that would change the galaxy forever, then humanity plays next to no part in it.

But I like even more the idea that no individual civilisation's achievements or failures make any real difference to the galaxy.

Bleakness is nice.

FlashGordon
11-09-2006, 17:05
I am quite confused, although i like the idea of the emperor/starchild thingie i also love the fact that humanity is "in between" the wars of ancient aliens and evil gods.

lapis_lazuli
11-09-2006, 18:33
Well I like the idea that the Old Ones apparently seeded Earth and many other planets in the last desperate stages of the war, but these planets were abandoned and evolution was left to run its course, resulting in many of the random humanoid races - like human beings! Nice to have a Star Trek-esque "progenitor race" explanation for why so many bipeds in the galaxy.

Beyond that, I don't like the War in Heaven background. There is some pleasant irony to be had from the fact that the Eldar and Orks were once allies, but I intensely dislike the cut-and-dry good vs. evil aspect. But if GW are determined to have this, I agree that the majority of races should be irrelevant to the final outcome, at least.

Kegluneq
11-09-2006, 18:42
What exactly links the Tau to the Necrons? Am I missing something horribly obvious in one of the codexes (codes? codeces?)?

Iceheart2112
11-09-2006, 19:50
I'm curious about this as well...to my knowledge, the Tau are closest linked to the Eldar through the Harlequins (with the Etherals being made by them and all...). I've not heard anything about the Deceiver playing with the Tau, though it probably will/has in the past.

Zephro
11-09-2006, 20:04
The etherals are made by the Harlequins? That's new. Is there a cringe emoticon?

Helicon_One
11-09-2006, 20:27
I don't like this thing where everyone is on one or other side of this conflict.
Agreed. Goodies versus Baddies = bleh, having the galaxy as one big Royal Rumble where its everyone against everyone else is far more entertaining.

Tim

Kage2020
11-09-2006, 21:03
Overall, I don't mind the C'tan-Old Once conflict. It only gets a bit much when it is written as the explanation to everything as a way of wangling them into as much of the 40k background as possible. (E.g. Because the Dragon is on Mars coupled with some typically obscure reference to "old powers", then suddenly the C'tan are responsible for all the advancements of the Golden/Dark Age of Technology, etc.)

Other than that, though? I personally am never too fond of the idea that we have to make each race fit into the nice little box presented to us by the Old One-C'tan conflict. That was more than 60,000,000 years ago and I'm fairly sure that the races have the ability to make their own decisions, come to their own conclusions, in that intervening time period. So in that regard I guess I'm agree with the original thread, for the most part.

Kage

Kegluneq
11-09-2006, 22:02
The etherals are made by the Harlequins? That's new. Is there a cringe emoticon?
In Xenology it's revealed that the Ethereal forehead-stone thing originated in a race the other side of the galaxy, the Q'orl, that were tricked by Eldar out of their Queen who used the feature to control her minions. The source for this was a Q'orl poem that dated the Eldar treachery to 4000 years prior to current events, making it fairly likely that the pheremone node had this origin, and that Eldar played a role. That Harlequins are responsible is probably conjecture, but they're actually the best candidates for the role.

Zephro
11-09-2006, 22:08
Awwww christ, I thought it was a joke.

Kage2020
11-09-2006, 22:37
<twitch> Xenology <twitch>

Kage

Kegluneq
11-09-2006, 22:53
<twitch> Xenology <twitch>

Kage

What's wrong with Xenology?

Kage2020
11-09-2006, 22:58
Bugger... I'm going to derail the thread.

<fanboy answer>

OMG! Xenology is, like, the best! All that cool information and detail that has never been seen before. I mean, like, wow! Kewl! :D :D

<non-fanboy answer>

:eyebrows: Where to start. ;) Good story, but indicative of a lack of vision and scope that is quite significant. But, hell, I'm a tired old cynic according to Khaine's Messenger and Sojourner, so take it with a pinch of salt.

Regardless, if one uses the term "haversian", one should know what it roughly means or employ - or kibitz - with those that do.

Kage

Kegluneq
11-09-2006, 23:04
:eyebrows: Where to start. ;) Good story, but indicative of a lack of vision and scope that is quite significant.

Much like the entirety of 40k, then... It does the job well enough for me - and if the biology is off at times, I'm not terribly fussed - the exact biology structure of a Space Ork is not overly important to me ;)

I'd be interested to know how much of it could be considered canon, though, since with so many revelations that's really the crux of the matter.

Out of interest, what connection do you have with archaeology, if any? I've just finished my BA myself, and the second part of that quote is seeming terribly relevant XD

Kage2020
11-09-2006, 23:10
It is canon. Don't even question that. GW published it therefore it is canonical. Even I - a "'Fluff' Heretic" - do not question that.

As to my own problems with it? Ultimately it comes down to the lowest common denominator. It could have been so, so much more, but GW seems to have aimed low. They have good authors, but still they produce blinkered products?

Of course, I might be aiming a bit high. At the same time, I think that this is a good place to aim rather than producing material that is aiming, well, low.

The implications? They're interesting for those that are willing to sell themselves to the material in question, i.e. they can suspend disbelief not only on the content but on what it was attempting to achieve.

As to a question of archaeology? I have a BSc. (Hons), MSc. and PhD in archaeology, though the latter also delves into history (as well as palaeopathology and archaeomtry, but then so too did the MSc.). Does that answer the question?

Kage

Zephro
11-09-2006, 23:16
I dunno all this adding links between the races in the past. Like the Ctan and Cypher and so on are really getting annoying.

Kegluneq
11-09-2006, 23:19
It is canon. Don't even question that. GW published it therefore it is canonical. Even I - a "'Fluff' Heretic" - do not questio nthat.
Fair do. Some BL I do wonder about (Commissar Cain stuff takes place in a parallel universe as far as I'm concerned) but it's nice to know that a solution to the Tyranid threat is sitting right under the Imperium's noses...

As to my own problems with it? Ultimately it comes down to the lowest common denominator. It could have been so, so much more, but GW seems to have aimed low. They have good authors, but still they produce blinkered products?
How do you mean, lowest common denominator? Are you saying that unless it appears challenging to someone holding a scientific doctorate it's not in depth enough? What do you think they missed out on? I read it as short story with a great deal of contextual padding, and it's still the best value GW product I've bought (in my opinion, at least).

As to a question of archaeology? I have a BSc. (Hons), MSc. and PhD in archaeology, though the latter also delves into history (as well as palaeopathology and archaeomtry, but then so too did the MSc.). Does that answer the question?
Entirely, thank you ;) Interesting that archaeology is a BSc over there, when it's a BA here - perhaps we use a more historical foundation to our work, at undergraduate level at least? My condolences to you for being in America though; the lack of archaeology over there must be somewhat annoying :p ;)

Kage2020
11-09-2006, 23:28
Entirely, thank you ;) Interesting that archaeology is a BSc over there, when it's a BA here - perhaps we use a more historical foundation to our work, at undergraduate level at least? My condolences to you for being in America though; the lack of archaeology over there must be somewhat annoying :p ;)
For someone that has experienced both side of the ponds? It is far more complex than the common assumptions. It actually has far less to do with "historical foundations" than you might believe, more so since I have to work with US bias (arrogance?) against UK-based education. (E.g. Some people consider me to only have a partial BS., a half MS. and a fragmentary PhD.).

I think, however, that this side of the conversation is going to have to be continued through PM or IM...

Kage

Khaine's Messenger
12-09-2006, 00:35
Necrons and the Ctan are supposed to be fighting against the Old Ones and their creations (Eldar and Orks).

I would broadly disagree with that. Most of the races have objectives and desired end results, but their opposition to other races does not exclude the importance of conflict or influence within others. This web of connections does not mean they are all on one side or the other, merely that many movers and shakers have their fingers in a lot of pies. So saying...


Humans are not a weapon of the Ctan, they have no higher purpose, they just happened.
Tau are not a weapon of whoever, they have no significance, they just happened.
Tyranids are not a weapon, they just happened.
And so on.

...is silly.


Somehow, Humans and the Pariah gene are involved in this grand multimillion year conflict. Also stuff about Tyranids avoiding something possibly Ctan in origin. Nonsense about Tau and the Deceiver.

Exactly. Even if it is all nonsense, the Tyranids, Tau, and Humans are part of the present astropolitical organization of the galaxy, and ignoring them or failing to utilize/destroy them would be foolish for such powerful entities. Which is not to say they're the only ones with their hands in those pies...just the most advertised. And as The 80's Guy said, it's all about image, people, IMAGE! :)


I don't like this thing where everyone is on one or other side of this conflict.

But they're not. We here at Warseer and other boards have worked on this for some time since the War in Heaven stuff got fleshed out...just like the AdMech does not, as a whole, worship the Dragon (assuming any of them do at all), there's a whole aspect to the struggle that makes outside interaction all the more interesting.


They are meaningless in the context of the Old ones war.

Obviously not if the Eldar think the only hope for the future is to convince mankind of the danger the Necrons pose (Farseer Maechu of Ulthwe). The conflict of the Necrons vs. the children of the Old Ones is not just OO vs. Necrons/C'tan--it's a war that the Old Ones lost and lost bad a long time ago (while Xenology makes the case that this war is far from over, the background machinations are hail-mary desperation moves at this point, and whatever victory the OO accomplish, it won't bring back their former glory). With the Eldar down and all but out and the Orks something of an unknown quantity, the main combatants in the trenches of this grand conflit will be Men...for now.


I quite like the idea that humans and whether the Emperor or Chaos rules them is more or less irrelevant to who wins the Ctan/Old ones war. I think it is a nice bleak vision of insignificance.

What makes you think the results of that conflict are not relevant to the C'tan/OO war? The gods were once weapons created by the influence of the Old Ones, just like the Eldar and Orks. The outcome of the human/Chaos conflict is very relevant.

----
And you're not a tired old cynic, Kage. You're just a cynic, and one of the best and outspoken in the biz at the moment in the field of 40k background. I know you're an archaeologist, but I'm sure your truly haggard and hoary years are not yet come. ;)

Philip S
12-09-2006, 03:46
I think the C'Tan are doing a hatched job on history and purporting to be ghods, manipulating all to their own ends now.

But there again a prefer chaos to be the big evil in the 40K universe, and I think the C'Tan are their puppets in the materium.

Four Chaos Ghods and four C'Tan avatars.

:chrome:

Philip

El_Machinae
12-09-2006, 11:25
I prefer the idea that if there is some great conflict that would change the galaxy forever, then humanity plays next to no part in it.


In the 40k universe, I expect this to be true. While humanity will be involved in grand conflicts, they would be mere backdrop to the truely grand conflicts that are being waged.

By analogy, WWI saw millions of lives spent and nations moblised against each other for years. While the weavil vs. vole conflicts ensued in the chaos (and were important to their species); they were unimportant in the grand scale of the event.