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View Full Version : Ultra Marines Doing something wrong.



Griffin
11-09-2006, 05:42
Is it just me or does it seem that the Ultra Marines must be doing something wrong. What I mean is, for all their talk of Honor, and following the Codex they seem to **** off a lot of People. Think about it.

Alpha Legion - Pissed off Alpharius, told him his accomplishments could never equal their own.

Word Bearers - Always were told that the Ultra's where the ultimate warriors, even though the word bearers were much better at spreading the imperial creed.

I'm sure there are other example's but for the ultimate spacemarines they sure do make alot of people turn to chaos.

Your thoughts here.

devolutionary
11-09-2006, 05:49
pffft you make it sound like the Ultras turned them. It was their own failings that did that. The dishonourable and corrupt will always take offence at the actions of the honourable and loyal, and the same is true in reverse. The Imperial Creed? There was no Imperial Creed as such, indeed that was teh problem - the Emperor never wanted to be a God and he never wanted disciples. The abilities of the Ultramarines had no bearing on this, and neither did the Word Bearers actions have any bearing on the Ultras. The Sons of Horus were the best marines anyway, Horus' competative nature (and their corruption, you could argue) saw to that. Ultras were the clean-up crew, teh administrators.

The rivalry with Alpha Legion though, that's very real. Both were tactical forces, it was simply an ideological dispute that got out of hand. You might as well say the Dark Angels **** off a lot of folks since they have the occassional brawl with the Space Puppies.

They never made anyone turn to Chaos. They had nothing to do with it. They were stuck in the Ultima Sementum when the whole Heresy thing happened. The Space Wolves all but catalysed the Thousand Son's shifting, and Lord knows they've pissed off more folks. I think the people the Ultras have most annoyed over the years are the remaining loyalists, notably Mr Dorn and his Yellow Boyz, and even time has shown that their grudging acceptance of the codex was a bloody good thing. Could you imagine an Astral Claws type rebellion if they still had a war fleet? It'd be much more than a simple insurrection, it'd be an outright bloodbath smothering whole systems.

Splagbot
11-09-2006, 06:07
The second war for Armaageddon when once the war was over they and other SM chapters, plus the Inquisition forced thousands of Imperial soldiers and citizens to work in forced labour camps until they died to cover up what had happened.

As for the Imperial Fists, reading the background I got the impression that they accepted the Codex Astartes because the Imperium was about to be flung into civil war, which Roboute Guilliman would have been more than happy to do for the sake of his book deal.

devolutionary
11-09-2006, 06:53
errr the post-war results are common enough in the Imperium that you can't precisely say they're going out of the way to **** folks off. That's standard practise. Hell, that's lenient compared to what often happens to those who combat the forces of chaos or xenos to such a high degree. Besides, the Blood Angels were in charge there, blame Dante :D

And Dorn opposed the idea of anybody breaking up his little legion, but saw that it was crucial to restabilising the galaxy. Guilliman's actions and marines helped in a dramatic fashion to hold the Imperium together after the combined ignorance of the front line chapters and the Emperor all but brought about it's destruction. They haven't done anything to specifically **** folks off other than ensure that the Imperium did not collapse inwards completely post-Heresy. So they pissed off some Chaos folks, big whoop? Who hasn't? :p

Griffin
11-09-2006, 07:02
Imperial fists are a bunch of ***** - It seems to me that the Ultra's are to full of themselves.

muskrat
11-09-2006, 07:10
dev, youre confused- he's talking about the 1st war for arm- the one angron led. Dante led the 3rd, led by Ghaz.

So actually, you both were a bit confused. Either way, the "head" of the 1st war was Logn Grimnar, who stills speaks out against the unfair sterilizations and internments.

Griffin said it right- and also, Alpharius led his forces against the Ultras to prove they were superior, which Roboute denied. And as such, the Ultras got their faces bashed in (supposedly) It's my opinion that after that, the Alpha Legion had no where to go but to Chaos- but no where near as much as the other legions, shown by their existance mostly out of the EoT.

devolutionary
11-09-2006, 08:15
So this is a personal thing. You don't like ultras, so you're going to attack them? That's not exactly productive is it?


dev, youre confused- he's talking about the 1st war for arm- the one angron led. Dante led the 3rd, led by Ghaz.

So actually, you both were a bit confused. Either way, the "head" of the 1st war was Logn Grimnar, who stills speaks out against the unfair sterilizations and internments.


You're right, I am confused, because I thought the 3rd and 2nd were both led by Dante, the 2nd being the 2nd Ed box games, and the 3rd being the Codex one. Meh, either way, it's irrelevant to my point. At no time were the Ultramarines in command.



Griffin said it right- and also, Alpharius led his forces against the Ultras to prove they were superior, which Roboute denied. And as such, the Ultras got their faces bashed in (supposedly) It's my opinion that after that, the Alpha Legion had no where to go but to Chaos- but no where near as much as the other legions, shown by their existance mostly out of the EoT.

This is a major point of contention. Alpharius never directly attacked the Ultras until after the Heresy, I believe, and while yes, Roboute was fatally wounded, I do recall that in general though that the Ultramarines were prefered over the Alpha Legion simply because the Alpha Legion relied so heavily on covert tactics which were not precisely useful to the Imperium at that time. The Alpha Legion are one of those groups that needs chaos to operate properly.

BrainFireBob
11-09-2006, 08:29
Roboute was wounded by Fulgrim, not Alpharius.

And the Alpha Legion came into their own too late to be relied on.

The major Ultramarine strength was to do so little collateral damage to infrastructure, and to rapidly rebuild after conquest, while still doing re-education into the Imperial philosophy- hence why Lorgar, who focused on religion, would feel competitive with them.

devolutionary
11-09-2006, 08:54
Ahhh see, Fulgrim, Alpharius, I always mix them up. Don't ask me why! That's all clicked in to place now.

Lorgar was at odds with everyone though, surely? His religious persuasion would have conflicted with the superiority of the Sons of Horus, and certainly come in to conflict with the vanity of the Emperor's Children. I don't think it's entirely fair to say that the Ultramarines did anything directly to antagonise. That's the overall gist of my statements - they aren't trying to **** folks off, and they aren't out to make rivalries. They're probably the least antagonising of all the chapters really. Everybody else has secrets, manias, and bitter secrets. The Ultras are just infuriated at the Nids, and that's an admirable trait in the Imperium ;)

Griffin
11-09-2006, 09:01
I've got nothing against ultra's besides the fact that they are filthy loyalists. Setting aside my justified Hatred for the corpse following scum, Don't you think for someone ruling a entire planet before joining the crusade that Gulliman would have dealth with his Brother Primarchs with a little more tact ?

BrainFireBob
11-09-2006, 09:01
The Ultramarines left happy, pro-Imperial worlds behind them in short order.

The Bearers left devastated, pro-Imperial worlds behind them but took forever. Why? Making sure they were pro-Imperial.

Hence the feeling jealous/why the Ultras would be held up as their counter-model by the Emperor.

I always had a soft spot for Fulgrim whupping Roboute- Roboute was the consummate general and soldier, and Fulgrim the perfect soldier. Roboute had the perfect system for practical usage- maximizing his supply/demand curve- and Fugrim bought the top end, ineffecient to train model. Head to head, Roboute gets his throat cut. Not quite head lopped off- stupid half inch longer, shoulda asked Ramirez about how that's not quite enough . . .

And I like the idea of the Ultras being the least antagonizing- what with Roboute telling every other Primarch, his equals, that they were going to divide their legions his way- and when Dorn said no, his supposedly independent Chapters prepared to move en masse to whup the Fists. They weren't offensive, they just pulled a gun and stuck it to everyone's head.

corax: My vote, Codex!
Vulkan: My vote, legion!
Dorn: My vote, legion!
Roboute: My vote, outnumber your @sses 23:1. I mean, Codex.

devolutionary
11-09-2006, 09:08
And that's where I disagree. He came in with the only fully functioning army and a guide on how to not only prevent another Legion plunging the entire galaxy in to war again, but how to organise the Imperium rapidly to the point that it would actually work again. He didn't point a gun so much as beat Dorn over the head with sheer logic. Yes, he threatened war if they did not accept, because at the end of the day he was right. Dorn wanted to keep his minions with him, cool, no biggie, but another Heresy could not be allowed to occur.

Basically, Guilliman is your mum. She'll ask, then demand, then threaten you to tidy your room, and you may not bloody well like it, but it's worth it at the end of the day. That doesn't make him antagonising, it simply highlights that of all the people left, only ONE of the active military commanders was in a position of esteem and power to hold such a fragile concept together throughout it's inception. The other great commanders of the age were dead (The Emperor's force of will, Horus' generalship, Sanguinus aura, etc...) or diminished to the point of clinging to a dream long past gone.

Hell, if you wanna stick to your version (not antagonistic) then no, they weren't. They were just very Imperial about it ;)

Okuto
11-09-2006, 14:08
sigh......smurfs......emperor's poster boyz.....scum......

ok enough of that, you can most likely tell that I don't like the ultramarines. Cause well, I'm an imperial fist.......but I switch my helmets from time to time if the changer wills it.

In short, I dislike the ultramarines cause their a bunch of snots and glory hogs. Always telling peeps what to do and what notz.

"Oh ummm....brother, you know....you should really do things by the book....my book that is....how about it?"

"**** off smurf!"

ryng_sting
11-09-2006, 17:24
Alpha Legion - Pissed off Alpharius, told him his accomplishments could never equal their own.

Guilliman pointed out that Alpharius's Legion had been founded centuries after his own, and so couldn't match the Ultramarines' tally of victories and honours. Admittedly, in this snippet - told from the AL's POV - Guilliman does seem dogmatic and inflexible. He could have accepted that not everyone was going to do things his way and left the AL to it. Did he ever suggest to Russ, Khan, Corax, or Sanguinius that they should specialise less and generalise more, as a 'codex' force would have?


Word Bearers - Always were told that the Ultra's where the ultimate warriors, even though the word bearers were much better at spreading the imperial creed.

The comparison came from the Emperor himself - not Guilliman. Spreading the 'Imperial Creed' (a post-heresy construct) was why Lorgar and his legion were reprimanded by the Emperor. They wasted conquering/liberating time building cathedrals and theocracies, and all in the name of a man dead-set against both. The Emperor had banned religion and chastised all who proclaimed him a god. The Emperor told Lorgar humanity had to put aside superstition and fear in favour of science and logic: Lorgar couldn't handle it.

The Imperial Navy fired on a single 'Fists cruiser, not the Ultramarines. All Guilliman did was call Dorn a heretic. Remember that Dorn's thinking was far from clear in the post-heresy years, and Dorn admitted as much before the Iron Cage incident. Let's not pretend that ego didn't play a part, either. Before the Dropsite Massacre and up to the Siege of Terra, the Emperor made Dorn the defacto head of the Imperium. Once the heresy was over that power passed to Guilliman. In the post-heresy years, it was the Ultramarines and their successors who did most of the work to keep the Imperium safe.

When it's all said and done, Guilliman was proven right. The success of his reforms were not that they prevented betrayal, but that they pulled its teeth. How farther and faster would the Tyrand of Badab's heresy have spread; or that of High Lord Vandire, given the time he had to spend reuniting the IG and the Navy?

Yahuboo
11-09-2006, 17:56
Also remenber that Guilleman rescued Dorn from the Iron Cage !

Splagbot
11-09-2006, 18:38
It doesn't matter that the Ultramarines where not in charge, if they had been dead set against going about the extermination of a planets population then would have done what the Space Wolves did and spoke out, even if they didn't agree with it, they where at the very least complicit.

Guilliman didn't beat Dorn around the head with logic, he persecuted his entire legion and as good as threatened to destroy the Imperium with another civil war if Dorn didn't agree, he used the superior numbers of his legion to cajole the rest of the Imperium in to doing things his way.

BrainFireBob
11-09-2006, 19:00
Yep. The Navy fired on the Fists, and the new Chapters "mobilized for war".

Guilliman effected what Horus attempted- he seized control of the Imperium and dictated its future and form. Because when the dust settled, the Ultramarines were larger and harder than ever, and the other loyal Legions were rather devastated (Salamanders, Raven Guard) or Primarch-less and apparently vote-less (Blood Angels, Iron Hands- and the Blood Angels were changed into Chapters very quickly by Roboute, by the Flesh Tearer fluff- before he presented his codex as the way of the future, otherwise the timeline doesn't work). Dorn was the only one in a position to attempt to argue, and Guilliman had the "independent" Navy and "independent" Chapters begin to mobilize to swarm the Fists. At that time, Guilliman- who also created th High Lords system (his appointees, mind)- was ruling in place of the Emperor.

And there's no reason that didn't de facto continue after he set the system in place- the only reason it's not Guilliman's Imperium today is that Fulgrim cut his throat. Perhaps the Emperor approved, perhaps he didn't- who can say? Point is, Guilliman gained what Horus sought.

2_heads_talking
11-09-2006, 20:53
True, Guilliman could have looked at the power vacuum made after the Emperor's sacrifice and decided that he wanted it for himself. However, that can only be considered if you forget on thing; from his earliest days, he was made to take command following the loss of his leader. Even on Macragge, when his father died, Guilliman had to take control and fight off his father's enemy. As such, he had experience of such situations, of being the man to stand up and fight for the benefit of his people.

So that changed to the Imperium at large; so what? Dorn, Russ and Jonson all made an agreement within the Emperor's Palace that no longer would they fight amongst themselves (although the Space Wolves and Angels kept up their 'feud', it eventually turned to a mutual respect of one another's chapters), but it took Guilliman to make that reality.

One last thing; yes he had the most men, but he threw his men in against every xenos force that saw Humanity as 'weak'. He did this, while the other Chapters licked their wounds, and while he managed to **** off folk like Dorn, Dorn and Russ were the exception. Who else muttered and complained? No-one, because Guilliman's warriors had performed the deeds necessary to give his voice a deserved authority.

And I agrre to whoever mentioned it, Guilliman only suggested war because he knew he was right. He could not allow his brother to even consider going down that same route again; although they had fought together for their Emperor, the minute he is entombed they began to bicker? That wouldn't have aved the Imperium. Even during this, he kept his head; he put all thoughts of bickering aside to save his brother at the Iron Cage, and although they were not involved in the great deeds of the Horus Heresy he did everything right in its aftermath.

Wow, sorry about that... just kept on going there... :D

Splagbot
11-09-2006, 21:19
There where chapters that weren't happy with the way Guilliman wanted things and while I can't think who they where a look back through the background would reveal this, Dorn wasn't bickering with anyone apart from Guilliman, as I remember it was Dorn who stopped Lion el Johnson form running Leman Russ through and admittedly Guilliman did send the Ultramarines in to help the Imperial Fists, but it wasn't like the Fists where in danger of being beaten by the Iron Warriors, it was a stalemate and the only reason that Guilliman helped Dorn was because he didn't want the Fists ground down too much as he recognized he needed Dorn if his plan was to succeed.

My point, Guilliman would have torn the Imperium apart destroying those he branded heretics if Dorn hadn't backed down.

Starscream1138
11-09-2006, 23:14
Guilliman pushed the Imperium to the brink of war because he knew Dorn was the type of man who would back down and let him do what needed to be done for the good of the Imperium at large.
Don't get me wrong i'm not saying Dorn was a wuss, i'm just saying that although he believed in what he was doing, he wasn't willing to see a war started over it. Guilliman knew this which is why he pressed the issue and backed Dorn and the others into a corner over it all.

Minister
12-09-2006, 00:17
The most significant point is that Guilliman was apointed a High Lord of Terra and the Lord Commander of the Imperium. This makes him the highest ranking military officer in human history, commander of everything (even Horus only commanded the forces mobilised for the Great Crusade). His subordinates refused orders, and he negotiated with them to bring them back into line, whilst mobilising troops to ensure that they did so (and to ensure that he negotiated from a position of strength). I see nothing wrong with this.