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IcedCrow
11-09-2006, 12:48
Well... here we are. 7th edition. Some minor changes here and there. One of them being that wizards can no longer have power battery cells laying around the battlefield generating dice for them to use.

How do you feel about this?

ss_cherubael
11-09-2006, 13:08
Hmmmm, i think its good.

Magic i think for ages has been near perfect in my opinion (one of the only near perfect parts of any GW game) but at some point common sense has to come into it. The idea that one wizard can just use the magical power of all the others on the field was a little out of line with the ideas of magic being manifest inside the individual and that it takes a hell of a lot to channel magic from other beings into one person to use in a massively devistating spell that ends the world!

And i love the new miscast system, one of the funniest things is seeing those goblin shamen accidently take too many magic muchrooms and then get sucked into the realm of chaos and torn apart, the only thing funnier is a fannatic killing itself!

IcedCrow
11-09-2006, 13:21
The system itself is pretty good. The lores are what were broken. And by broken I mean, when people 99 times out of 100 choose one lore and there are eight present, that's broken.

Heavens anyone?

ss_cherubael
11-09-2006, 13:30
broken? no only slightly cracked, the problem with everyone choosing the heavens comes from too many people not knowing how to use the other lores. I am a firm believer that the two best lores and the two deadliest when used properly are the lore of beasts and the lore of shadows, use them in combo with the right units at the right times and you can do more damage than any commet ever could!

I think in all honesty that there also has to be some restrictions placed on the lore and their use by wizards, i have no idea how maybe some choices cant be taken or magic items cant be taken or inter lore rivalries things like that to spice things up and stop the over abundance of commets

IcedCrow
11-09-2006, 13:33
Heavens is the easiest as you pointed out. Even a trained monkey would realize "hey it has the most damage spells... I'm so there"

I think over the past five years we have killed all of the Imperial heavens mages.

Ironhand
11-09-2006, 13:42
I think the new system is excellent. The new miscast table should be very amusing, and I think they've balanced the lores better than they were, although they're still not perfect.

I very much like the fact that each mage is now required to use his own dice.

IcedCrow
11-09-2006, 13:52
DO you feel it hoses armies that rely on magic though? I have heard several people cry about how their mage lords are now "useless" because they don't get to use all 14 of their power dice on the mage lord's spells.

lord_blackfang
11-09-2006, 13:57
I play TK, Ogres and Dwarfs, so I couldn't care less :D

ss_cherubael
11-09-2006, 14:08
thanks for the fantastic in put there blackfang!!!lol

I think that people who relied on one mage to do all the casting have been hammed with the new magic system but it is their own fault, learn not to rely on one mage or one unit for that matter!

zak
11-09-2006, 14:11
I think it is certainly going to make people think twice about using a wizard lord as one wrong miscast role and your toast. I have read the spells for each of the eight colleges and must applaud GW on a good job. They all seem equally good with some colleges having different styles to match different armies. I think with the loss of the hidden mage using the thunderbolt that many will now stop usinh heavens.
Also the fact that mages can now be targetted if not in a unit will mean mages have far less line of sight and become slightly weaker.
I haven't used the new magic system yet, but it seems to have solved some age old problems of magic imbalance. I think it will stop the High Elf mage council, which willl weaken the HE if you prefer that style of gamaing.

IcedCrow
11-09-2006, 14:14
It hampers the mage council period if you prefer that.

I don't think hampers though... more like... you have to be more cautious.

Which I applaud. Anything that makes you think MORE I am all for.

zak
11-09-2006, 14:20
Unfortunately it will not stop my friend from using his 2nd generation Slaan in a 2000 battle due to the ignores miscasts. It never really does a great deal and he usually loses, but it's a nightmare in the magic phase and this isn't going to change.

IcedCrow
11-09-2006, 14:38
It's supposed to be a nightmare in the magic phase ;)

Eldacar
11-09-2006, 15:19
I think it will stop the High Elf mage council, which willl weaken the HE if you prefer that style of gamaing.
An Archmage using the two base dice, his own additional four, the Ring of Fury/Corin and all the dice from the Banner of Sorcery (D3) can still put out an impressive 7-9 dice plus a Bound Spell in the magic phase (and can take the Staff of Solidity to help stave off miscasts), while the lesser mages act as scroll caddies. The Seer Council has certainly been weakened, but it isn't entirely useless.

Gekiganger
11-09-2006, 15:29
I'm pretty happy with the magic changes. From what I've seen the lores are a lot better and removing the ability to use other mages power dice will weaken a lot of 'power gaming' style players magic phase.

truthsayer
11-09-2006, 15:38
I must say i like the changes, not being able to power up level 4's is excellent.

Now im just having trouble choosing a lore for my Slaan to use in my next game (they're all pretty good now!)

IcedCrow
11-09-2006, 15:47
And that my friends means it's a good system. ;)

Rioghan Murchadha
11-09-2006, 17:48
And that my friends means it's a good system. ;)

I dunno man.. Troops really seem to dominate in the close combat phase. I mean, my mage lords aren't breaking units and reaping their points cost back in CC... Units have all these unfair Combat Res bonuses so it's hard for any army that doesn't stack up for CC to not get hosed in the combat phase.

(tongue firmly in cheek there)

However, I do find it funny that so many people complain about magic. It's unpredictable at best, and a risky investment for potentially no return at worst. Why are people so offended by being hammered with spells in a fantasy game with a phase called the... wait for it... Magic Phase?

It's very difficult to have what, 12-13 unique armies when they're all just variations of foot sloggers or cav smashing into each other.

The new changes to the magic system absolutely hosed my Tzeentch Daemonic Legion. Running 3 core units of horrors at 2k pts means that, since I only generate 2 generic power dice, one of my horror champions is going to have to try to cast Red Fire (a mediocre random spell at best), which is a 5+ cast, on 1 die. Same with every other horror unit assuming I want to actually get more than 1 spell out of my lord of change.

I find myself asking exactly what the point of paying 42 pts for a unit champion who isn't even likely to get a spell off is...

For an army that is the manifestation of the will of the lord of magic that's pretty gimp.

and let's face it, this isn't a mortal chaos army where there are rock solid fighters to compensate for when the magic doesn't work... I still play it because I love Tzeentch, and I love the theme, and I refuse to break the theme to make it work better, but it's like trying to reproduce with both testicles cut off... Rather difficult :p

GrogsnotPowwabomba
11-09-2006, 21:02
I quit playing 6th Edition about 1.5 years ago because I was so sick of 14 PD one-man armies. I think the new magic system is excellent, both in the use of PD and the balancing of the lores.

IcedCrow
11-09-2006, 21:08
I think the new chaos book will address your issue. Until then ... you're right... the tzeentch demon list will only be played by devote followers of tzeentch who love their army.

Warhammer Calculus tells us the power rating of said army is 0.004821... which is pretty low.

(tongue also in cheek... I love my warhammer calculus formulas for winning tournaments!!)

zak
11-09-2006, 21:11
I didn't say that the seer council isn't viable. It is just now a lot more dangerous. You role snake eyes and your very expensive mage lord dissapears and leaves well...buggered!

vorin
11-09-2006, 21:24
Overall, the new magic rules are pretty good. The new miscast table is more fun , (and more dangerous)....

I would say, however, that the powerdice pool now being separated does hurt magic heavy armies. Some armies are more reliant on magic, (some aren't but choose to). If someone wants to take more risk and go more magic heavy for an army build.....the new system makes many think twice.

I enjoyed being able to have different options with my army builds not only with different troops, but different themes.

These changes tend to limit rather than expand.

I will say that the new lore tables look excellent.....am much needed tweak.

Dosadi
11-09-2006, 21:35
I've read through it but won't be playing my first game of 7th until tommorow night. I definatly like the current rules. I like that you can use unused power dice to dispell 'remains in play' spells in your own phase.
My new plan: Savage orc Great Shaman on a Wyvern with Warpaint.' Gives the wyvern 4 attacks as it is now subject to frenzy.

Dosadi

Voltaire
11-09-2006, 21:36
The new system is very balanced in my opinion.

It even gives people some reason to actually want to make a miscast. The possibility of a miscast and roll of snake eyes when a dragon has charged you, make it very characterful to see a Wizard commit suicide to destroy the powerful enemy mage.

Peegore
12-09-2006, 00:08
The new magic system is good. I look through the lores now, and would actually have to choose one as opposed to going directly to the tattered, thumbworn heavens page;)

Magic is, by it's nature within the Move/Magic/Shoot/Combat phases is a very stand alone element. The other three interact tactically, but Magic...well you either got it or you ain't. At least now it has been toned down a little, and has swung (slightly) to a more supportive role. Which IMO is a very good thing.

( a man weary from facing Necrarch and gobbo magic laden armies week in, week out... )

hacksaaw
12-09-2006, 00:55
The impact upon my vampire counts is going to be severe. i usually take a count, thrall, and 2 necros. now i may have to ditch the thrall and take 3 necros inorder to get much benefit from the magic abilities im paying for, and inorder to keep the count from having to cast as all it takes is some bad luck on a miscast and my army is crumbling.

Im somewhat stubborn so dont want to make a bloodcounts army, but it really does appear that the new magic rules are going to eliminate alot of the flexibility in Undead army design. While the Tomb Kings are going to rock with the new rules.

IsawaShori
12-09-2006, 04:52
I also think the new system is very balanced. Magic will be a key aspect, but I don’t think it will be as dominating as it was. I love the new miscast chart, even though the results are harsher, I will still take the risk and not let the miscast table intimidate my wizards.

AngelofSorrow
12-09-2006, 05:12
Even as a tomb king player the way magic works out now is great. because i dont have to deal with heavens wizards blasting the hell out of my casket anymore.

Also I dont have to worry about 2nd gen Slaans having gigantic amounts of power dice from those skink priests so now he has to use those little pains.

Also with nearly 5000pts of Chaos which has a fair amount of magic in it. I like the way it works as now i actually want to use the lore of beasts with my beast shaman and will continue to use, Fire, shadow, and death with my wizards and its even better as they are slightly better.

Although not a big fan of the Crown of Taidron

Shimmergloom
12-09-2006, 05:48
And i love the new miscast system, one of the funniest things is seeing those goblin shamen accidently take too many magic muchrooms and then get sucked into the realm of chaos and torn apart, the only thing funnier is a fannatic killing itself!

What's funny is that the greenskins have their own miscast table. So this should never happen.

whiteshields1830
12-09-2006, 06:59
its ok i guess...buggers my magic poweer dice allocation for my tzeentch daemonic legion buts its not biggy. (i used to use the power dice generated from my horror champions for my daemon prince...)

My miscasts havent been too bad... (my herald dropped a magic level - but its not like he blew up lol)

Overall i didnt really mind the changes ^_^

snurl
12-09-2006, 07:06
The new miscast table is the way a miscast table really ought to be.
Brutal, with teeth.

Zilverug
12-09-2006, 14:59
I like the changes to the lores and the limitation on moving power dice, I have doubts about the changes to the miscast table.

I can imagine 3rd/4th level weakling wizards (wizard lords and the like; not the likes of the Tzeentch lords or daemon princes) disappear because of their price is now too high due to the new miscast table. In 6th they were already pricy for the one-trick pony they were, as compared to the non-magic heroes.

Gorbad Ironclaw
12-09-2006, 16:11
Well... here we are. 7th edition. Some minor changes here and there. One of them being that wizards can no longer have power battery cells laying around the battlefield generating dice for them to use.

How do you feel about this?


I think the new system is an improvement over the old system, and a bit more balanced, but overall I don't think it will really change very much.

It will possibly make miscast resistant items more common, and I imagine that power stones will be be more common too, but I don't think you will see a great change in the amount, or power of magic.

What you might see is it costing people a few more points. Especially as heroes now give VP suffering halfwounds, rather than over half.

Rioghan Murchadha
12-09-2006, 22:21
Overall, I agree that the new system is a much better fit for armies that simply had magic as a part of a balanced whole.

What the new system really and truly does, is utterly devastates armies that live and breath magic. Tooling up for your magic phase is actually less effective than tooling up for any other phase, because there are counters readily available. Cheap lvl 1 mages with dispel scrolls.

What is my instant cheap counter to heavy shooting? Or grotesque combat ability? There isn't one.

Now, my 600+ Greater Daemon could forget all his spells at the drop of a hat, only gets a maximum of 6 dice, to sling a potential 5 spells with, most of which have 9+ or higher casting costs.

Something is going to have to give with the new army books. Either completely remove the armies that depend on magic, or do something for them that sets their magic phase above the one in the main book. Players of Tzeentch Daemons in particular are now running armies that can't shoot, can't fight, and now, can't reliably cast anything either.

Played 2 750 pt games of 7th ed the other day, and had a lvl 2 and 2 lvl 1s shut down by base dispel dice. The other forces didn't even HAVE mages.

Ragnoff
12-09-2006, 23:33
I worry about tomb kings, there magic already seemed to good, and now with this system may be even better (as they don't miscast, correct?). Their spells always cast!

Shimmergloom
12-09-2006, 23:51
Not always. You need at least a 3 to cast. Says so in the main rulebook. And any double ones may not miscast, but those are casted spells either.

Dtrik
13-09-2006, 00:08
EDIT: wrong thread

Gekiganger
13-09-2006, 00:16
The new miscast table is the way a miscast table really ought to be.
Brutal, with teeth.

:) Indeed. Miscasts previously were too fluffy and kept trying to rub up against your leg while making a strange purring sound.

marv335
13-09-2006, 00:30
Not always. You need at least a 3 to cast. Says so in the main rulebook. And any double ones may not miscast, but those are casted spells either.

not true for TK magic.
you're not casting. you're rolling the power level. the incantation is automatically cast no matter what you roll.

GodHead
13-09-2006, 02:57
Played 2 750 pt games of 7th ed the other day, and had a lvl 2 and 2 lvl 1s shut down by base dispel dice. The other forces didn't even HAVE mages.

Where do you play that someone you know uses a level 2 and 2 level 1 mages in a fricking 750 point game? The seventh ring of hell? That's beyond insane, and the person who didn't even HAVE mages is the only reasonable one in your group apparently...

StarFyreXXX
13-09-2006, 03:30
uhm?? my slann has never needed help from priests to cast...hehe.. I want my priests to use their spells and the slann can then unload ALL 4 or 5 of his on his own :)

My only complaint is that since liz have to take heavens with a non-sacred host army (for the priest) it kinda sucks that 2nd sign is the 2nd spell.

(we being the arch enemy of chaos, sadly, unlike chaos, our guys are either good at combat or magic, not both...so it's kinda like, IMHO, our priests aren't as good as other armies mages wherethey have a choice into what to take from the rulebook)...
BUT overall, the changes don't hurt me with my army style..so it's no big deal :)

Sanjay

Rioghan Murchadha
13-09-2006, 12:50
Where do you play that someone you know uses a level 2 and 2 level 1 mages in a fricking 750 point game? The seventh ring of hell? That's beyond insane, and the person who didn't even HAVE mages is the only reasonable one in your group apparently...

Heh.. I'M the one using a lvl 2 and 2 lvl 1s in a 750. It's a Tzeentch Daemonic legion for the love of god. What do you expect?

Exalted Daemon with Master of Sorcery + Diabolic Splendour + Power Vortex
2x 10 Horrors w/champion

Total = 748 pts

It's actually the only way to satisfy core. Even if I get rid of the champs, it's not enough to include another unit of anything, and I don't want to drop the exalted for the herald because it's just not the theme I'm running with.

You really think this is beardy? I can tell you from experience that it sucks something fierce. Can't fight, Can't shoot, the horror bound spell is S2, the Exalted Daemon is lucky to get off 1 spell, and the horror champs are casting red fire on 1 die.

Bloodknight
13-09-2006, 13:16
Well; there are those people who use 3 necromancers in a 750 pt game ;)

IcedCrow
13-09-2006, 13:22
Burned at the stake for heresy.

zak
13-09-2006, 15:57
Starfyre,

Your Slaan may be the only spell caster to escape the down grading of magic. This will only be if you make it a 2nd generation (poss 3rd) as it stops miscast and gives you the additional dice. A hell of a lot of points though if your only playing a 2000 point game.

mageith
13-09-2006, 16:04
Starfyre,

Your Slaan may be the only spell caster to escape the down grading of magic. This will only be if you make it a 2nd generation (poss 3rd) as it stops miscast and gives you the additional dice. A hell of a lot of points though if your only playing a 2000 point game.
A mere 4th generation slann does not suffer a roll on the miscast table. That can be gained for a mere 40 points.

The Slann largely escapes the down grading of magic but not completely. Fits the (new?) fluff...

Slann: "Though they do not possess the power of their ancestors, they are more potent that the greatest of the Elven mages." (194)

Pravus
13-09-2006, 16:23
I like the changes personally - if anything it liberates you from the idea that you need a load of magic to be competative. Its much more of a gamble to take all wizards considering you could potentially lose the lot in the first magic phase. I don't think it nerfs certain armies just certain flavours of army. For example, the zombie horde of eternal raising is far more risky but as a list, Vampire Counts is just as viable. Hell, we might even see a bit more creativity in army selection.

I'll still take my four Slaaneshi wizards on occassion but I'll be wincing every time I cast a spell!

lachlanwizard
17-09-2006, 02:24
At Rioghan; I was under the impression that GodHead was saying that he is amazed that you would bring such a force to the table. I was a little amazed myself personally, seeing as i don't touch magic until 2000+. Although, Godhead might have meant differently, so i can't really speak for him.

der_lex
17-09-2006, 02:44
I'm quite impressed with the Lore revisions, heavens doesn't seem to be the 'take under all circumstances lore' anymore. The Lore of Light especially seems like a very interesting thing to take when going up against undead or daemonic legion armies...

Rioghan Murchadha
17-09-2006, 05:43
At Rioghan; I was under the impression that GodHead was saying that he is amazed that you would bring such a force to the table. I was a little amazed myself personally, seeing as i don't touch magic until 2000+. Although, Godhead might have meant differently, so i can't really speak for him.

Nah.. if you read his post in context he's pretty much calling me a beardy git. However, it's simply from the realm of inexperience, as that 750 pt list I spoke of is the most singularly useless army in the entire world. 750 pts worth of shooting, or CC would be much more effective, and a hell of a lot more reliable. In fact, the 2 armies I got crushed by were Ogres, and DE With 2 large Xbow units and dark riders.

It's simply a kneejerk reaction from people who got hosed badly by mages in 4th and 5th edition. Magic is nowhere near the dominating force it once was. In fact, it's largely a waste of points these days.

lachlanwizard
01-10-2006, 10:00
My new High Elves symphasise with you. Playing around with magic at lower points is now my new hobby, with two level twos at 1000.

anarchistica
01-10-2006, 10:13
The new lores are an improvement but i think RiP spells are hurt by the "own PD" restriction. I ran 2 Level 2s in a 1500 points game (i use 1 level of magic per 325 points at most) last friday and they both rolled a RiP spell (Bear's Anger/Unit Causes Fear on 9+). If either had a spell in play the other guy's spell was very easy to dispel (even with just 3 dice), and if he fluffed it the RiP spell was dispelled because those 3 dice i had left were doing nothing anyway. Sure, i could try to get it off again, but i roll alot of 1s and the whole idea about RiP is that those things remain in play...

Frecus
01-10-2006, 10:33
The only thing that still bugs me about the system (and to be honest is a bigger bug now) is the random rolling for spells.
An army that relies on magic can be made or broken by those 8-11 dice rolls for spells if he's chosen the wrong lore (rolling only 1's and 6's for life lore was a pain, but rolling the master spells is painful for your opponent).

I don't mind extra danger while casting a spell, but the random spells just don't feel justified.

Frecus
The glade wanderer
Madwarrior

Cherrystone
01-10-2006, 11:08
Making each individual wizard use their own dispell dice and only when within potential range of a spell would of improved the system even more in the right direction.

Maybe drop the points of wizards and give each spell a points value where you can freely choice might also be another method worth looking into (5 years time for 8th ed that is)!

Gorbad Ironclaw
01-10-2006, 11:22
Making each individual wizard use their own dispell dice and only when within potential range of a spell would of improved the system even more in the right direction.

When you say in the right direction, do you mean by making it impossible to dispel anything?

Because thats all it would do.

Elcampbello
01-10-2006, 11:30
The only time I've ever found magic to be "unbalanced" was when I took 2K points worth of wizard in the 7 knigts senario.

truthsayer
01-10-2006, 11:56
Making each individual wizard use their own dispell dice and only when within potential range of a spell would of improved the system even more in the right direction.

This would only see the increase in the number of dispel scrolls, and that isnt a good thing.

Holy Crap! Manticores!
01-10-2006, 15:37
I never really used battey mages in 6th, so it doesn't really affect the way I play.

I think I used it once when two of my Sorcs had RIP spells running, so my High Sorc let loose for a couple turns. Obviously, that'll won't happen again (at least until 8th, when the whiners get GW to re-institute it.)

The Miscast table is indeed a bit nastier to the caster, but not that much. If anything, it encourages me to bring fewer casters and use them in more of a defensive role. Which is cool, 'cause I can buy another unit of troops with which to tie up the opposition.
The system itself is pretty good. The lores are what were broken. And by broken I mean, when people 99 times out of 100 choose one lore and there are eight present, that's broken.

Heavens anyone?As a Dark Elf player, I didn't have access to all 8 Lores,* though the ones we had were decent. I'm kind of upset that Pelt of Midnight was removed from Shadow Lore (the Witches LOVED that spell), compounded by replacing it with Crown of Hezbollahwhatever. I do appreciate the changes made to Shades of Death though.

If anything, I've always been impressed with Lore of Life and its ability to mess with units based on nearby terrain features. Master of Stone has always been a thorn in my side. As to the revised Lores, Lore of Metal looks pretty awesome, especially against artillery-heavy armies.

*This must be fixed with the new DE army book. We have 60,000 books of sorcery for pete's sake!!! That's exactly 20,000 books for eack Lore we have access to. Inexcusable. Two more Lores at least. We didn't pilfer those books for nothing!!!

Rioghan Murchadha
01-10-2006, 19:40
they need to do something to fix the system without making magic free victory points for the other guy.

As it stands, it is 1/4 of the whole game, (movement, shooting, CC being the other 3/4), and as of now, it is the singularly crappiest, least reliable phase in the game. My suggestion would be to return to something similar to the 4th and 5th edition method of power allocation.

You could still use dice, but you roll d6 for the winds of magic per wizard on the casting side per turn. the result is how many dice you get, evenly split between both sides. Now you let any wizard use the dice from his side, and you also make it so that a full 1/3 or 1/4 of the miscast table doesn't render your mage useless.

What this does is it makes magic a more reliable, useful proposition, while still allowing people who don't want to use their own mages a chance to not get hosed by magic without having to take a battery of dispel mages / scroll caddies.

One could also bring back the +1 or -1 to dispel based on relative caster levels, but that's a whole different story.

As it is now, I've been playing 7th ed, and I've retired my Tzeentch Daemon Legion as it is now completely useless in 3 out of 4 phases (the one remaining being movement). Grotesquely overpriced for what they can put out.

zodgrim
01-10-2006, 20:01
I haven't had a chance to play yet but I have read them. I like the changes. I learned to play with 5th ed and it was a choice to take a mage or wizard. When I started playing with 6th, it seemed like a requirement. I hope with the changes that it will go back to a choice.

adreal
02-10-2006, 01:40
Hmm, well recently I took on VC at 2000pts, and I didn't have any mages, thats right taking on VC with my two basic dispell dice. He had 3 lvl 2 necro's, so there wasn't any battery thype things we had to worry about, but I felt very nervous, untill he took 3 miscasts, yeah I know that's luckey on my part, but we got to see the new miscast table in action, yeah there is a greater chance of those wisards dies, but mostly it just stops the magic phase dead. So do I see the new magic phase as balanced, yes I do, In the older days, I would have been hosed by that VC army, but now, yeah you don't need a lvl 1 scroll caddy to play without magic, sure it might help, but you don't neeeed it which IMHO is a good thing

sephiroth87
02-10-2006, 02:07
Nah.. if you read his post in context he's pretty much calling me a beardy git. However, it's simply from the realm of inexperience, as that 750 pt list I spoke of is the most singularly useless army in the entire world. 750 pts worth of shooting, or CC would be much more effective, and a hell of a lot more reliable. In fact, the 2 armies I got crushed by were Ogres, and DE With 2 large Xbow units and dark riders.

It's simply a kneejerk reaction from people who got hosed badly by mages in 4th and 5th edition. Magic is nowhere near the dominating force it once was. In fact, it's largely a waste of points these days.

I think you're right. However, I never thought it was a dominating force. Magic, for what you spend on it, was always a crapshoot. You would use it to completely wipe out an army one game and spend the next one wondering why you put 600 points into magic users that didn't do anything. Now, you can shut down a magic using army with a level one scroll caddy and 2 dispel scrolls.

The problem is not the miscast table. The real problem is that the magic phase was never as powerful as people perceived it to be. There were certain powerful combinations (Heavens, Necromancy, and the Life Lores were the biggest culprits). But by and large, magic, and the rules that drove it, was easy to negate and cheap to counter. What a magic heavy army spent 800 points on, an opposing player could break it with around 100 points. To me, that is not a good return on an investment.

Right now, spending points on close combat or shooting is at least consistent, which is the biggest problem in the magic phase. With the "power battery mages," you could at least throw out some spells that would get through. This is especially important when you have a lot of spells that need 8 and 9+ to cast.

Rioghan Murchadha
02-10-2006, 03:06
I think you're right. However, I never thought it was a dominating force. Magic, for what you spend on it, was always a crapshoot. You would use it to completely wipe out an army one game and spend the next one wondering why you put 600 points into magic users that didn't do anything. Now, you can shut down a magic using army with a level one scroll caddy and 2 dispel scrolls.

The problem is not the miscast table. The real problem is that the magic phase was never as powerful as people perceived it to be. There were certain powerful combinations (Heavens, Necromancy, and the Life Lores were the biggest culprits). But by and large, magic, and the rules that drove it, was easy to negate and cheap to counter. What a magic heavy army spent 800 points on, an opposing player could break it with around 100 points. To me, that is not a good return on an investment.

Right now, spending points on close combat or shooting is at least consistent, which is the biggest problem in the magic phase. With the "power battery mages," you could at least throw out some spells that would get through. This is especially important when you have a lot of spells that need 8 and 9+ to cast.

Pretty much yeah, and at least in my opinion, it's especially important when there are entire armies that are hinged and themed around slinging spells (tzeentch, VC, some HE, etc.)

This is why I don't understand all the whining.. I was running my HE with no mages for the longest time against magic light/heavy armies, shooting light/heavy etc. My tradeoff was that for the points I saved on no cavalry/warmachines/mages, I had enough infantry to weather the storm and get dug in. but as you said, if I had wanted to shut down magic, 1 scroll caddy would do it to the critical spells.

It's funny that the same people who bitch and moan about magic winning a game never complain when their army wins through shooting someone, beating them up in hand to hand, or outmaneuvering them. Each of which, like magic, is merely 1/4 of what makes up our lovely game.

fracas
02-10-2006, 03:56
i like the new system though it doesn't really affect me. i take a 4th generation slann, thus immune to miscast.
i think lore of Light and Death are the best. I have been taking 2 from each for my Slann.

Alathir
02-10-2006, 05:41
I love the new magic system.. tones it down alot, which was what magic needed.

Rioghan Murchadha
02-10-2006, 07:17
yeah.. I hate the new Close Combat system.. it plays too much of a role in deciding games... I think they really need to tone it down.. I mean, it's stupid that if my opponent loads up on CC units, I can't counter it without taking CC units of my own.... :wtf:

BullBuchanan
12-10-2006, 09:53
So anyone have any idea where I can bury my High Elves until eighth edition? Already arguably the weakest army in the game, the one saving grace of the high elves was that its wizards were some of the most formidable in the game. Now, we were already paying out the ass for them to begin with, and god forbid if we hit a spell, we'd never hear the end of it, but then they have to totally nuke them out of existance. Now I'll be honest and say i've yet to play with the new rules in effect, but it was hard enough playing against tough melee/heavy magic armies to begin with, mainly brets and tomb kings, but now I think that any TK player worth his salt should wipe the floor with any possible list that a High Elf player can come up with. With pitiful overpriced melee combatants, the most expensive archers in the game, and a wonderfully nuked magic system, what are we to do?

I've got it!

"Cavalry, Charge!....****, it's the bretonnians"...

DisruptorX
12-10-2006, 10:15
I haven't had a chance to play yet but I have read them. I like the changes. I learned to play with 5th ed and it was a choice to take a mage or wizard. When I started playing with 6th, it seemed like a requirement. I hope with the changes that it will go back to a choice.

I didn't play that many games back in 5th edition, but if I remember correctly, the only difference between a lord and a wizard back then was a wizard couldn't wear armour and a lord couldn't cast spells. Wizards had godly melee potential combined with magic. It seems that lords got better in 6th, but maybe thats just because my 4th/5th edition books are skaven, undead, and chaos, where armies were primarily led by mages.

Tutore
12-10-2006, 10:32
I dont´think I have to throw away my HE army, since I never played them with heavy magic. I agree their infantry is overcost, though.

sps62487
12-10-2006, 11:09
a khorne army as i like to call it AM (anti magic) i mean the spell eater shield +1 dispell dice for each unit/hero w/ mark of khorn

the high elfs have great calvary
archers are the best in the high elfs since that shooting is another strong point of their army

Venomizer
12-10-2006, 11:15
I like the new magic system - my orcs aren't affected since I never use shamans with them.

As for my planned night goblin army.....it still doesn't affect me much since all 3 shamans in that list would use there own dice & spells anyway

No more do I have to face down a level 4 being fuelled by his mates who just do the funky chicken dance in some near-by woods for the rest of the game

BullBuchanan
13-10-2006, 07:00
You've gotta love the all the supporters of the new system who don't use magic. Now it was likely necesarry to fix some problems, ie Demon ARmys are sick, every unit can cast spells in addition to 3 mages and or a lord, and they are by far the most devastating army in the game. However, it's going to likely have a large negative impact on HE players as it's suppossed to be what they are best at and they arent that good at anything else(Empire and Brets have better cav). I'm thinking that the empire and wood elves may suffer as well. Again, GW did not do a good job of balancing here, the detriment they are inflicting effects mostly the "weaker" armies and did little to effect to the stronger ones(TK,most Chaos,and Brettonnia). I'm not excited to see what happens over the next few years as it gets exploited worse and worse.

vorac
13-10-2006, 07:40
Since i play VC i really don't like the new system, for starters the army is created through magic and now we can't cast spit, now i play every bloodline except lahmia which just suck and now i can't see the point of paying for a Vampire lord level 3, the guy costs 335 points naked and if i happen to miscast horribly then there goes my game, one things for sure i'm putting all my carstein,strigoi and necrarch models aside until late 2007 and consentrating on BloodDragons,Direwolves,Graveguard and Black knights oh and maybe felbatsand spirit hosts. Banshees become too difficult to protect and can be march blocked, ghouls can be march blocked too easily, zombies suck and are too difficult to raise in game now and same for skellies, and i can heal the crappy coach and don't even get me started about the use of bat swarms. Yup when GW wants to **** up an army they **** it up good.

ashc
13-10-2006, 08:43
My butchers are happy little psychopaths :evilgrin:

i never use more than one dice a ritual anyway and we have our own (brutal) miscast table even if i did.

and fielding 2 butchers at a time means i have plenty of chances to cast spells. :)

Ash

Latro
13-10-2006, 08:51
Since i play VC i really don't like the new system, for starters the army is created through magic and now we can't cast spit, now i play every bloodline except lahmia which just suck and now i can't see the point of paying for a Vampire lord level 3, the guy costs 335 points naked and if i happen to miscast horribly then there goes my game, one things for sure i'm putting all my carstein,strigoi and necrarch models aside until late 2007 and consentrating on BloodDragons,Direwolves,Graveguard and Black knights oh and maybe felbatsand spirit hosts. Banshees become too difficult to protect and can be march blocked, ghouls can be march blocked too easily, zombies suck and are too difficult to raise in game now and same for skellies, and i can heal the crappy coach and don't even get me started about the use of bat swarms. Yup when GW wants to **** up an army they **** it up good.

That's funny, because the people who know what they're talking about ... you know, all those experienced VC players on sites like The Bloodkeep and such ... all seem to agree that VC have become stronger this edition.

Maybe try a few games? ... perhaps change a few tactics where needed?

GranFarfar
13-10-2006, 09:23
the high elfs have great calvary
archers are the best in the high elfs since that shooting is another strong point of their army

Are you serious? HE archers a strong point? And by great cavalry, you do mean avarage right?

On the magic system- I am with Rioghan Murchadha(man, your name is hard to spell(!) ) a bit. I really donīt understand why people was so worked up about the immense power of magic in 6th edition. It was usually better to use fighter heroes and just get enough magic defence to fend of the worst spell each phase. All out magic heavy rarely paid of, and when it did, it was just for a few armies - beast tzeench, tk(though in most of the cases tk just loose), vc. I had minor success with the slann, meaning my opponents are used to me fielding fighters and thus lack magic defence.
Over all, fighters won the day. I have always theoriest that people donīt like being beaten by magic becaus it feels like there is nothing to do, so those rare occasions where magic blasts an army apart is what is remembered.

The changes. Wizards using their own dices, donīt think it matter that much, lvl 4 suffers a minor setback, but it is not such a big thing. The lores are much more interesting, most are viable - great change.
The miscast changes I do not like at all. The reason is simply that it got too much flux. One bad miscast can spell the doom for a magic heavy army, but if you roll no miscast at all it will do nothing. The same reason why I donīt like killing blow, it is to much all or nothing.

Latro
13-10-2006, 10:15
Nothing quite like some numbers to put things in perspective:

- cast on 3d6, chance to be killed by miscast: 0.2%
- cast on 3d6, chance to get a hit by miscast: 7%

- cast on 2d6, chance to be killed by miscast: 0.07%
- cast on 2d6, chance to get a hit by miscast: 2.5%

... I can live with that, and so can my Vampires and Necromancers! :)

StarFyreXXX
13-10-2006, 12:31
I still say the miscast table isn't harsh enough ....

(bring on the D&D Wild Mage tables!!!)

Sanjay

Grand Warlord
13-10-2006, 12:56
I like it ... I am bringing out my 2 level 2 wizards again.

Scythe
13-10-2006, 13:08
Pff, a lot of bashing going on here. And the debate somehow seems to drift towarts the high elves once more (who would have thought it? You must be loving this he Iced?) :p



It's funny that the same people who bitch and moan about magic winning a game never complain when their army wins through shooting someone, beating them up in hand to hand, or outmaneuvering them. Each of which, like magic, is merely 1/4 of what makes up our lovely game.

This is an illusion. The shooting and the magic phase have always been the supporting phases of the game. They can do some damage, but they won't win you battles on their own. Which is as it should be. We are talking about a wargame here, not a game of heroquest.

Furthermore, there is not much in the way of tactics and strategies in the combat phase. The worst you have to decide here is wether to attack the troops or the character. The rest is dice rolling. You could even argue that this is true in a slightly lesser degree for the shooting and magic phase as well.

Battles are fought and won in the movement phase. It is were you as player have the greatest influence over your troops, and consequently the most important phase of the game (and I wouldn't want it otherwise).

But I am rambling of topic. I like the new magic system. It is nice that all lores now have become attractive. Sure the stacking dice on a single wizard is gone, but it doesn't change that much for most armies. Evolve your tactics, and try something new, rather than sticking in the past.

CaptainExctasy
13-10-2006, 13:26
I like the new magic system. I have Slaanesh, High Elves, Orcs and Wood Elves and all have some type of magic user. My High elves are based on the White Tower so i have an Archmage and 2 Level 2 mages in 2000 points. I find the new magic system to add a lot of random chance into the magic phase, and considering the winds of magic i find it to be pretty cool. True i have a great chance of getting my **** chewed by miscasts, but is not magic supposed to be dangerous?. Until we all have played the new 7th edition alot more and against different armies and opponents i think we can't say for certain what effect the new changes have had on the game. But so far they seem balanced to me. The only gripe i have is people whining still about High Elves:)

Nkari
13-10-2006, 15:39
The magic system shouls have used avians thingie.. roll 3 dice, the highest and lowest goes to the one who is casting this magic phase, the middle one goes to the one who dispells this phase.. simple and effective.. doesnt matter if you have 1 or 4 wizards, only thing that matters then is how many spells you have etc..

BullBuchanan
19-10-2006, 09:38
So what would have been so wrong with the addition of a magic defense/offense stat for each unit, and just a standard dc test on a set number of die for the various spells? The idea of an army running out of "dispel dice" seems a bit assinine IMO, but hey I guess they know best. I know a lot of folks would make the arguement of too many defense checks but depending on the roll vs the defense it could be unblockable unless by scroll or magic item, aka the hit/wound chart. Not too difficult, but wouldve required a good deal of testing. Instead, GW can gimp an already broken system, and all the armies that rely on said system along with it, and slap a 50 dollar price tag and the number 7 on a new manual.