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Harry
11-09-2006, 15:11
I know we haven't even got orcs and Goblins out of the way yet and Emipres next but....

It is now my understanding that the next Vampire counts book will include wraiths not as characters but back as a unit. A great big scarrey terror causing unit.

(Before you ask I have no idea if they come with the stats as listed in the back of the rulebook)

Jedi152
11-09-2006, 15:13
Hmmm ... could encourage more people to use them, but i hear the screams of 'broken' and 'nerfed' already.

Any more VC related rumour goodness?

fleshtuxedo
11-09-2006, 15:18
I dunno, those dwarf flaming bolt throwers, brettonian grail knights and anything woodelf forest spirity would make thier day pretty rough, and if memory serves me right, werent they also really expensive too?

truthsayer
11-09-2006, 15:23
Hmmm ... could encourage more people to use them, but i hear the screams of 'broken' and 'nerfed' already.

I gotta agree with fleshtuxedo on this one, with so many things being able to attack ethereals im not that scared to be honest.


Now the toughness 7 is a whole different kettle of fish ;)

Tastyfish
11-09-2006, 15:39
Not to mention that they would be hard pressed not to just disintergrate when fighting a ranked unit anyway.

lord_blackfang
11-09-2006, 15:46
Now the toughness 7 is a whole different kettle of fish ;)

No such thing!

NakedFisherman
11-09-2006, 15:48
Not to mention that they would be hard pressed not to just disintergrate when fighting a ranked unit anyway.

As far as I recall, they are/were a ranked unit!

Tastyfish
11-09-2006, 15:51
As far as I recall, they are/were a ranked unit!They were also 75 points each. Hmm, 1725 for full ranks and command...

EvC
11-09-2006, 15:56
Lol! Wonder how they'd work, and at what prices? I can't see a unit of five being viable at less than 3000 points if they're anything like they are currently. However, if they become simply character-lite units like the Banshee, then they'll certainly get a place in my army (Especially if the Wraith on the Black Coach has been nerfed thanks to Great Weapon rules changes).

Gekiganger
11-09-2006, 16:01
Thank god! I hope they do go back to the old R&F units before the undead split. Used to love being able to walk through random terrain and buildings with them.

Arduhn
11-09-2006, 19:12
I would like to see them back as unit champions of skeletons etc.

Gupp
11-09-2006, 20:27
yeah, having them as a "champion" type upgrade for skeletons would be cool, and maybe let them win combats a bit more than they do.

DesertDirge
11-09-2006, 20:51
No way... I like wraiths how they are!!! I hope they stay the same!

Senbei
11-09-2006, 20:57
Well.... Try thinking of them more as Ethereal Great-swords...... Jus without the armour...

Tili
11-09-2006, 21:05
Would be cool, maybe act as a unit like treekin or something. Maybe a nice support, flanker unit (movement 6 ?).

I cant wait for all those yummy undead rumours !! :p

Gekiganger
11-09-2006, 22:04
Why do people prefer unit champions? The best part about wraiths was that they could walk through things!

Anyway, does anyone have any rumours or is it just speculation?

Khabuldashudeth
11-09-2006, 22:28
Why do people prefer unit champions? The best part about wraiths was that they could walk through things!

Anyway, does anyone have any rumours or is it just speculation?

Here's your rumour. From what I've seen, this guy is pretty accurate too :p


I know we haven't even got orcs and Goblins out of the way yet and Emipres next but....

It is now my understanding that the next Vampire counts book will include wraiths not as characters but back as a unit. A great big scarrey terror causing unit.

(Before you ask I have no idea if they come with the stats as listed in the back of the rulebook)

Arduhn
12-09-2006, 07:22
well, they can still take challenges as unit champs and kill characters who don't have magic weapons (or other unit champions). I do also like how they can move through stuff though.

VanHel
12-09-2006, 07:33
I would like to see a hero level ghoul. A sort of uber ghoul that would be cool.

Milgram
12-09-2006, 08:20
isn't a strigoi vampire some kind of hero level ghoul? :)

Harry
12-09-2006, 10:45
They were also 75 points each. Hmm, 1725 for full ranks and command...

Good point...they might have to look at a points reduction.... 75 points a pop is not going to work out.


Not to mention that they would be hard pressed not to just disintergrate when fighting a ranked unit anyway.

The old ones did come with an extra point of toughness and an extra wound compared to the current wraiths (who are characters) but I seem to remember they still ran away a lot (even if they won the combat!)

So maybe some sort of stat reduction will equal a points reduction so you can take them in numbers. Or maybe they will just be hard enough they can hold there own against a ranked unit even without numbers. Remember they are going to need magic weapons to hurt them so if they pick thier targets...

Gekiganger
12-09-2006, 10:53
Good point...they might have to look at a points reduction.... 75 points a pop is not going to work out.

I'll still take them at 75 each. I know it's a bit of a stupid point cost but as a unit of 5 they can be used to good effect if there's enough terrain to cover them (or more appealing units to shoot at)
They were pretty good if they got a flank charge or if you used them to get around the side of a battle line and beat units up from behind.

Harry
12-09-2006, 11:15
I cant wait for all those yummy undead rumours !! :p

Sorry thats all I've got for you right now.
Except I know for a fact Vlad and Isabella von Carstein will be back!



Anyway, does anyone have any rumours or is it just speculation?

So heres some wild speculation....do you know how you know its speculation and not a rumour....cos I said here is some wild speculation!

Along with Vlad and Isabella I predict we will see the return of
Manfred von Carstein ..... obviously!
Hienrich Kemmler and Krell....They have been part of warhammers history/folk lore from very early and there appears to be a move to ensure this material is not 'left behind'
Zacharias the everliving...because he has a great big expensive model.
Walach...for the Blood Dragons, an based at blood keep...again old part of the history.

Maybe nefrata but I think they will let Melkior and Dieter Helsnicht quietly slip away.

As in orcs and Empire these 'special characters will be there in the main list to be picked with no extra hero slots ..but they will be expensive points wise.

Isabella and maybe Krell would be Heroes the rest Lord choices.

All the 0-1 s will be dropped.
It will be difficult to field enough magic weapons to cope with 4 special picks of 5 bases of spirit hosts so they will have to see a change of some sort. (maybe they will become rare with a banshee as a champion upgrade?
Even with the new rules taking the edge of a black coach two charging together will be a scarry prospect so they might have to limit them in some other way.
Bat swarms are so flexible I think without the 0-1 I wouldn't choose any other core so they may get the snotling treatment.

Skeleton Archers might make a come back...(were they in the sylvanian list?)

I think the toning down of the bloodlines has been mentioned enough but the impact on blood lines powers will be that if you want a female vampire with the power to summon wolves, beguile and is also a blade master....you will be able to do this.

All of this is just wild speculation.
As soon as I hear anything more concrete Ill bring it and say something like "it is now my understanding..."

All the best,
Harry

jimbob
12-09-2006, 11:29
from what i know, the bloodlines will work in the way chaos works. different bloodlines will restrict different units and such. of course there will be bloodline specific weapons and such.

i dont see bat swarms being toned down. as it stands, they are now one of the worst swarms out there, snotlings being the worst. they have a max move of 10", crumble under the new rules (so their alive ability is useless), and have no particularly good points otherwise.

Bubble Ghost
12-09-2006, 11:42
I'm more worried about the background implications of units of wraiths. It was a silly idea in the first place for one of unlife's natural loners - it made much more sense when they were made characters. One wraith is scary; several wraiths is a fancy dress party.

Jedi152
12-09-2006, 12:02
The would be better remaining as characters, or Banshee style rare choices (suitably upgraded).

truthsayer
12-09-2006, 12:06
The would be better remaining as characters, or Banshee style rare choices (suitably upgraded).

I would like to see them getting a hand of dust type bound spell or special attack. The idea of touching someone and sucking their soul out is a great idea.

Harry
12-09-2006, 12:37
from what i know, the bloodlines will work in the way chaos works. different bloodlines will restrict different units and such. of course there will be bloodline specific weapons and such.

i dont see bat swarms being toned down. as it stands, they are now one of the worst swarms out there, snotlings being the worst. they have a max move of 10", crumble under the new rules (so their alive ability is useless), and have no particularly good points otherwise.

It is my understanding that the bloodlines will only be in the book as examples. That the list will not be restricted and there will not be bloodline specific weapons.

They are the only flying swarm in the game. (I think?) making them uniquely fast and flexible with a 360 degree charge. With four units of them of them you could hit a big unit from all sides with 20 attacks. but other than that your right no particularly good points.

EvC
12-09-2006, 12:37
I agree... plus it'd let me run the "Four Horsemen" army I want, but a mounted Wraith = lol right now...

jimbob
12-09-2006, 14:43
They are the only flying swarm in the game. (I think?) making them uniquely fast and flexible with a 360 degree charge. With four units of them of them you could hit a big unit from all sides with 20 attacks. but other than that your right no particularly good points.

i just remembered that swarms can be march blocked like other units. yay! a use for batswarms! thanks for reminding me:)

truthsayer
12-09-2006, 15:10
making them uniquely fast and flexible with a 360 degree charge

Can swarms charge 360 degrees then? I didnt think they could :confused:

*rulebook time*

Gekiganger
12-09-2006, 15:24
Skirmishers have a 360 degree sight IIRC.

Bun Bun
12-09-2006, 15:54
So heres some wild speculation....do you know how you know its speculation and not a rumour....cos I said here is some wild speculation!

Along with Vlad and Isabella I predict we will see the return of
Manfred von Carstein ..... obviously!
Hienrich Kemmler and Krell....They have been part of warhammers history/folk lore from very early and there appears to be a move to ensure this material is not 'left behind'
Zacharias the everliving...because he has a great big expensive model.
Walach...for the Blood Dragons, an based at blood keep...again old part of the history.

Maybe nefrata but I think they will let Melkior and Dieter Helsnicht quietly slip away.

As in orcs and Empire these 'special characters will be there in the main list to be picked with no extra hero slots ..but they will be expensive points wise.
Isabella and maybe Krell would be Heroes the rest Lord choices.

I believe the special characters are going to be.........................

Nagash-Supreme Lord of the Undead.
Manfred von Carstein- They,ve had a model for him for years thats still got a bit more milage in him.
Vlad and Isabella von Carstein- Its not like they are going to leave these guys out now.
Zacharius the Everliving- As Harry said the model is too expensive to leave out. They want people buying him.
Heinrich Kemler and Krell- Will probably get new models.


All the 0-1 s will be dropped.
It will be difficult to field enough magic weapons to cope with 4 special picks of 5 bases of spirit hosts so they will have to see a change of some sort. (maybe they will become rare with a banshee as a champion upgrade?
Even with the new rules taking the edge of a black coach two charging together will be a scarry prospect so they might have to limit them in some other way.
Bat swarms are so flexible I think without the 0-1 I wouldn't choose any other core so they may get the snotling treatment.

I personally feel that the Black Coaches are a bit over-powered to warrent two of them in a 2000pt game.


I think the toning down of the bloodlines has been mentioned enough but the impact on blood lines powers will be that if you want a female vampire with the power to summon wolves, beguile and is also a blade master....you will be able to do this.

Adding some flexibilty I suppose to the Vampires. Nice.

Jedi152
12-09-2006, 15:58
Skeleton Archers might make a come back...(were they in the sylvanian list?)
Skeleton crossbowmen were in the Sylvanian list - archers were in the Blood Dragon appendix list.

I'd dearly love to see skeleton missile troops again.


I think the toning down of the bloodlines has been mentioned enough but the impact on blood lines powers will be that if you want a female vampire with the power to summon wolves, beguile and is also a blade master....you will be able to do this.
Hmmm. I don't know how i feel about doing away with bloodlines. They are too restrictive now, but a return to generic vampires just seems a bit of a step backards to me.

Gekiganger
12-09-2006, 16:06
I believe the special characters are going to be.........................

Nagash-Supreme Lord of the Undead.
Manfred von Carstein- They,ve had a model for him for years thats still got a bit more milage in him.
Vlad and Isabella von Carstein- Its not like they are going to leave these guys out now.
Zacharius the Everliving- As Harry said the model is too expensive to leave out. They want people buying him.
Heinrich Kemler and Krell- Will probably get new models.


Nagash I'm not sure about. Heinrich and Krell don't need new models either but I hope they're in. Wonder if that manticore riding guy Deiter IIRC is making a return...

DesertDirge
12-09-2006, 17:39
With all the talk about Nagash I'm sure he might make a comeback.

Gekiganger
12-09-2006, 17:45
With all the talk about Nagash I'm sure he might make a comeback.

As a campaign background yes, with fully playable rules I hope not. GW have made him into such a hyped character that featuring him as a playable character would make him too weak to represent the demi god he has became.

Harry
12-09-2006, 19:20
Yup. I am assuming he will be the center piece of the summer campaign. (and will not be included in the book.)

Tili
12-09-2006, 20:24
I dont think we will get any missile troops (aside from the banshee).
In 5th we go no shooting, 6th also no shooting. 7th ? Im guessing no shooting.

Bat swamrs in 6th edition were really cool, they could survive a grail knight charge!

Anyway, I would really like some shooting, maybe just normal bows, just somethng to kill of ranks and get more chance for outnumbering...

Im hoping for :
-better wolves (like the 5th edition ones, THEY ROCKED).
-Flesh Golems ?
-More useful magic items, nobody likes the Skull Staff or the Tomb Blade.
-Hand of Death spell gone, it has no use at all!
-Raiseable grave guard, black knights etc, ... but D3 models or something...
It just doesnt make any sense that they can make them but cant get them back ?

Hey it would be cool to use a Striogi or Blood dragon and give him Nehekara's Noble blood and have a general in -2000 pts that can take some hits and dish them out!

oh and PS, im not counting the bow of asp...

therisnosaurus
12-09-2006, 21:17
not to knock out the wraith rumors or anything, but if you look in the back of the army book, they're listed in the heroes section of the VC, with the new profile, so I assume they're still heroes (but they DO have toughness 7 :D)

edit: just a note, I just noticed that both spirit hosts and banshees are ALSO listed as t7.



can you say
YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHH HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!

jimbob
13-09-2006, 00:42
@tili: hand of dust? no use? are you mad? i've killed 2 hellcannons, 3 treemen and lots of characters with that thing. through it on a necro, have hellish vigour on him/his unit. hey presto, instant death! can you say: 'FATALITY!'

Khabuldashudeth
13-09-2006, 00:51
-better wolves (like the 5th edition ones, THEY ROCKED).


Can you explain this bit? I'm curious... (how were they better?)

thanks

EvC
13-09-2006, 01:14
@tili: hand of dust? no use? are you mad? i've killed 2 hellcannons, 3 treemen and lots of characters with that thing. through it on a necro, have hellish vigour on him/his unit. hey presto, instant death! can you say: 'FATALITY!'

I've used it just once, on a Dark Elf Dragon. It's a great feeling :D

Voss
13-09-2006, 02:00
I don't see Nagash popping back up as a special character. (Maybe an outside chance of a Lord Kroak style '1000 points but you will never use this in a game under 3000 points, and even then it isn't worth it' type of character.) Plus he doesn't really fit as a Vampire Counts special character.

Speaking of which...
maybe its just me, but I would like to see the vampires toned back a lot... both in abilites (and points) and also as the focal point of the army. I *like* necromancers. (and wraiths). They are far more evocative than 'night haunting blood drinker that happens to be leading an army for reasons that aren't clear, and we won't even mention the issue of daytime battles at all.'

I'd like to see more emphasis on the rank and file of the undead army, rather than the lingering herohammer that the vampires embody (along with Tzeentch chaos lords).

I'd also approve of the idea of blending the bloodline powers (since the bloodlines are in no way balanced and some of the powers are uber, and others rather worthless.

Other than that... models. The ghouls work for me, even if I don't like them. The current plastic skeletons aren't bad, and I like the spirits, wraiths and banshees.

On the other hand, the vamps are all pretty poor, the zombies are grosteque caricatures of proper proportions (i like what they were trying for, but the giant hands just get to me), the fell bats make me giggle/sob in quick sucession, the grave guard aren't horrible, but aren't right (and the nightmares need some detail). Rotting tack and barding, rather than bare horse skeleton. The wolves are just unispiring.

And while the black coach isn't a bad model, I just don't think it fits well with the feel of the army. Speaking of which...

it needs one. Tomb Kings are doing great, theme-wise. VCs got left with everything else, which is still a hodge-podge. Go with the Shelly/late medieval gothic horror. Mobs. Torches. Fresh zombies, bearing the scavenged weapons and the clothing of the recently dead. Monstrosities created in the tortured imaginations of Necromancers and Necrachs (like the rumoured flesh golems I suppose, though... I'd prefer something other than the D&D spin on that). Bats and wolves and ethereals still work, and should be prevalent in the theme.
And while I like the idea of ancient wights, (and if down well, dragged from the barrows of Sigmar's time, with appropriate kit), it kinda jumps the theme to something closer to the Tomb Kings. While the idea may offend some, I could easily see ceding all of the 'skeletal dead' to the Tomb Kings, and focusing more on the shambling horrors of the night. The things that civilized men have to fear when they've gone astray not far from home. Horrors hidden away, but not quite forgotten, in the dark corners of the Olde World.

And if someone pulls Buffy-style vamps out on us, I'm going to be quite irate.


As for hand of death, while it isn't necessarily great for vampire lords, for necromancers, a (usually) 50/50 chance of 'haha, you're dead!' is great.

And wraiths as a terror causing unit. Maybe its me, but I think this works out better for the enemy. Terror is almost a one shot deal. (at least, per unit, it is). Having all the terror in one place (or multiple, large point costs of terror) is a lot easier than having it scattered about as single characters in a bunch of different units, for less than 100 points a pop. It isn't any more effective in a large unit, and the US when they default back to just causing fear will be rather low.

Hellebore
13-09-2006, 07:31
I'd like to see vampires edge out chaos lords statwise.

They suffer from the undead crumbling rule, which effectively makes them worse than a chaos lord - despite being unnatural, immortal, unkillable monsters.

If, at the least, they got to cast magic in armour, it would be something...

Hellebore

Giladis
13-09-2006, 08:15
What I would like to see is that Vampires and NEcromancers are no longer crumbly.

Harry
13-09-2006, 08:31
One or two posts have mentioned flesh Golems. I asked Gav Specificaly about this and he shook his head and said it was just people making stuff up/wishful thinking and that flesh Golems (and werewolves) whilst being part of generic fantasy horror had never been part of warhammer undead and were not going to be part of the new Vampire counts. (I'm pretty sure he was being open and honest and not trying to 'fool' me.)

Jedi152
13-09-2006, 08:36
What I would like to see is that Vampires and NEcromancers are no longer crumbly.
I'll go for that.

I always saw necromancers as living wizards, and i would have thought Vampires would have had enough willpower not to crumble.

Bubble Ghost
13-09-2006, 08:46
The fact that they do is just a gameplay device, it's been acknowledged that it's a fudge.

lorelorn
13-09-2006, 08:52
It's a fudge that's no longer necessary given the new rules. I'd like to see living Necromancers again.

They just need to be made unbreakable to allow them to join undead units (assuming no change to the rules there).

Bubble Ghost
13-09-2006, 08:55
It's a fudge that's no longer necessary given the new rules. I'd like to see living Necromancers again.

They just need to be made unbreakable to allow them to join undead units (assuming no change to the rules there).

Unbreakable vampires?:eek: Good lord, no thanks. And I have a VC army.

lord_blackfang
13-09-2006, 14:21
not to knock out the wraith rumors or anything, but if you look in the back of the army book, they're listed in the heroes section of the VC, with the new profile, so I assume they're still heroes (but they DO have toughness 7 :D)

edit: just a note, I just noticed that both spirit hosts and banshees are ALSO listed as t7.


You DO realise that the charts in the rulebook have exactly zero bearing on the army books?

yohanes13
13-09-2006, 16:10
1) no new flexi bloodlines
2) two new blodlines chaos vamps and ninja vamps
3) one new unit type = flesh ogre thing (already mentioned)
4) 3rd or 4th book competing with de (sos if already mentioned)

Autobot HQ
13-09-2006, 16:21
yes ... ninja vamps ... that line alone destroyed any kind of believability personally

Baindread
13-09-2006, 16:28
So Chaos Vamps didn't do it then? =)

Jedi152
13-09-2006, 16:29
Exactly. The rulebook is superceded by the current VC book, and will be superceded by the new vampire book when it is released.

The only reason you will ever need to use the stats in the book is if you decided to use a lone wraith for a scenario (if you collected the army you'd buy the current army book).

The T7 is only to compensate for the fact that there are no Ethreal rules in the main book, as has been said many times before.

Mephistofeles
13-09-2006, 16:30
Well, I mean, there are Ninja/Pirate/Arab-Ogres...

It would be so typicaly GW of late to produce something like that. But I sure hope this is a crappy-Red-shirt-********-rumour. I really hope.

Autobot HQ
13-09-2006, 16:48
Chaos vamps 4 teh w1n innit .... Ok I'll stop now ;)

Gekiganger
13-09-2006, 17:15
Ha! What Bull shirt.

I want to become a red shirt one day and be the (currently non existing) type that doesnt' sprout bull for no apparent reason.

EvC
13-09-2006, 17:28
Gav has already dispelled the Flesh Golem rumour, more than once. Let's end it now, please.

Tili
13-09-2006, 17:38
Can you explain this bit? I'm curious... (how were they better?)

thanks

Dire wolves in 5th ed had always strenth 4 and gained an extra attack on the charge...

so a doom wolf had 3 S4 attacks on the charge for example...

and hand of dust is just to random i never take that spell... its just soo situational... And i am not going to charge and kill things with necromancers, they are supposed to blast things from afar...

UH, i really have to stop ending my sentances with "..." ...

ZomboCom
13-09-2006, 17:45
Red shirts know no more about the Vc book than we do.

Arnizipal
13-09-2006, 17:45
Gav has already dispelled the Flesh Golem rumour, more than once. Let's end it now, please.
He has? I thought it was werewolves he denied.

Gekiganger
13-09-2006, 17:49
He has? I thought it was werewolves he denied.

Mentinoed flesh golems too. Somthing along the lines of 'flesh golems and werewolves are part of teh D&D genre but not GW'.

Kristov
13-09-2006, 17:55
too bad too, as wereweolves would have been really awesome in the army IMO.

Maybe they didn't they they couldn't make a better model than Rackham's Varghar model.

Kristov

Lordsaradain
13-09-2006, 18:49
chaos vamps...

we already have strigoi (ie mutated vamps) and blood dragon (ie great champion vamps). What we need is lustrian vamps!

Ninja vamps sound pretty cool, though I wonder how useful they'd be gamewise...

yohanes13
13-09-2006, 19:06
sorry maybee i should clarify

1)chaos vamps = vampire bloodline that went to live in the chaos waste not neseserily chaos but definatly mutated

2)ninja vamps = vampires gone to live in cathy or nippon excel i martial arts etc

both highly believable as these bloodlines were both conformed of thier existence in liber necis

also when did gav so no to flesh golems imy red shirt friend who rarely ********s says he spoke to him recently and confouirmed that some form of large multiwound unit was going to be included

gorenut
13-09-2006, 20:06
The one good thing about redshirts in my area, they don't know anything, but they act it too. No false rumors.

gorenut
13-09-2006, 20:08
chaos vamps...

we already have strigoi (ie mutated vamps) and blood dragon (ie great champion vamps). What we need is lustrian vamps!

Ninja vamps sound pretty cool, though I wonder how useful they'd be gamewise...


Perhaps the Ninja Bloodline would allow thralls to operate like assassins for Skaven and DE... now that would be brutal.

sodapopinski
13-09-2006, 20:16
About werewolves and vampires:
Isnt it like "common lore" that these two races are long known for their rivality and hatred for each other?, like it is known in most fantasy settings that dwarves and elves dont like each other.

I dont know too much about the subject (correct me if you know better), but i think it would be strange for werewolves and vampires to tag along...

cardboard_armour
13-09-2006, 20:28
It's not what I would say common lore that Vamps and werewolves hate eachother. It's more like a common interpretation.
Just because its the case in those Underworld movies doesn't mean we have to have it in Warhammer.
Anyway don't Von Carstein have some sort of affinity with wolves and don't some of them have the power to turn into wolves anyway.
Not that I wouldn't like to see were-wolves in warhammer it seems that that ground has already been covered as a vampire special power and as a chaos mutation (see that bit of flavour text about The Were in Hordes of Chaos).

Revlid
13-09-2006, 20:41
sorry maybee i should clarify

1)chaos vamps = vampire bloodline that went to live in the chaos waste not neseserily chaos but definatly mutated

2)ninja vamps = vampires gone to live in cathy or nippon excel i martial arts etc

both highly believable as these bloodlines were both conformed of thier existence in liber necis

also when did gav so no to flesh golems imy red shirt friend who rarely ********s says he spoke to him recently and confouirmed that some form of large multiwound unit was going to be included

Chaos: Bull. The only pureblood Vampire who went close to the Chaos Wastes was Vashanesh, who later moved South to Kislev and then to Sylvania. He was Vlad, and his children became known as the Von Carsteins.

Ninja: Again, unlikely, although not as idiotic as Chaos Vampires. Although Harakhte (Lahmia's obssesive court vizier, sounds like karate) did indeed go East, his previous status as vizier is unlikely to translate well in "Ninja". Especially considering Ninjas are from Nippon and he went to Cathay. He is more likely to take after the jiangshi of China (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hopping_corpse).

Liber Necris: Wrong. As mentioned above, Harakhte went East. The other, Maatmeses, judge of Lahmia, went South, even further from the Chaos Wastes. She ended up in the Southlands, meaning her bloodline is likely to be Voodoo-themed.

So basically, what we have here is a redshirt skim-reading Liber Necris (or an internet synopsis) and tossing in some crap about ogre-sized creatures that's already been brought up and denied about a dozen times.


too bad too, as wereweolves would have been really awesome in the army IMO.

Maybe they didn't they they couldn't make a better model than Rackham's Varghar model.

Kristov

Werewolves and Vampires only have anything to do with eachother in Hammer Horror movies. Let's keep that seperate from Warhammer, shall we?
The Were already exist as a specific type of Chaos Spawn, Chosen Marauders (e.g. Beorg Bearstruck), the Children of Ulric, and a Bloodline Power. (although the first three are all likely the same thing).

75hastings69
13-09-2006, 22:35
Werewolves and Vampires only have anything to do with eachother in Hammer Horror movies. Let's keep that seperate from Warhammer, shall we?

If I am right were there not a clan of Werewolves in one of the Slayer series of BL books? (was it Vampire slayer?)

I am pretty sure that both Werewolves and Flesh Golems have now been confirmed as NOT being in the new book by several people, BUT 2 of my sources are still claiming that Flesh Golems WERE in the running (but they don't know if they made the final cut).

*EDIT* BTW I believe the 2 new bloodline rumours that were given out by a redshirt are innacurate.

DarkTerror
13-09-2006, 22:48
Perhaps the Ninja Bloodline would allow thralls to operate like assassins for Skaven and DE... now that would be brutal.

Can you picture a vampire hiding in a unit of skeltons? :rolleyes:

Maybe he's white enough to hide naked...

Tastyfish
14-09-2006, 00:37
Werewolves and Vampires only have anything to do with eachother in Hammer Horror movies. Let's keep that seperate from Warhammer, shall we? Well...thats actually completely backwards. Traditionally werewolves (people who could change skin/witches) who weren't killed properly, either beheaded or burnt would return as vampires. There is a direct connection, its just faded into two seperate pop culture things and then recently been combined again.

Tili
14-09-2006, 01:37
Fluffwise ninja vampires are out of the question. Its just plain ridiculous.
Ninja's are assassins. They kill people, they DO NOT suck blood out of living things :p (I feel like "Ask a Ninja") :D

Chaos vampires ? I tought everyhthing(almost) in de warhammer world was created/ contained Chaos... all the monsters are Chaos right ?
Hippogrif,pegasus, etc all chaos ; vampires, magic = chaos ...
so a chaos vampire is like, I dunno, the same thing as a vampire.

logicly: vampire = chaos vampire(cause it is chaos)
so a chaos vampire = vampire...

(Sorry for the maniac rambling, its late for me)

Its just some comon sense and some fluff i happen to type here, but I think it makes sense...

EvC
14-09-2006, 01:52
Actually vampires are one of (If not the only) things that is completely disconnected from Chaos, according to the Liber Necris...

Senbei
14-09-2006, 01:56
Of course, we all know that they will in fact be Fish-Man Vampires with a dislike of clothing... Though admitedly... voodoo Wampirs sounds kinda cool :D

Varath- Lord Impaler
14-09-2006, 01:58
Actually Vampires are the one entity in the world which ARNT of chaos.

They do not own a soul so they have no imprint in the aethyr.

Thats also why i dont like the idea of chaos vampires.

Heres my wishlist:

"Vlad in the book- such a brilliantly awsome character

When looking for inspiriation for von carstein models- Lestat, so very Lestat.

add in more 'children of the night' to have horrible horrible dead animal armies

A big multiwound unit wouldnt be horrible but it could be anything from Flesh Golems to Ice revenants.

Less emphasis on necromancers, i dont like them that much. I love vamps though.

Let the Von carsteins have either walking death or Aura of dark Majesty for 20 NOT MAGIC points when they become von carstein.

(you may notice a trend)

Nightmare models, make MUCH better please, more zombie horses.

give Vampires a blood drinking boost for killing characters.

kris.sherriff
14-09-2006, 02:18
I heard that they are doing plastic ghouls which sounds quite plausible to me them being a core unit.

Also I hate the fact that you have to take a necro in under 2000 points I just can't see him ordering a blood dragon thrall around so I really hope they change the way that works.
Kris Sherriff

Goodthrust
14-09-2006, 04:19
As far as I can recall I though Chaos and Undead didn't get along not due to what created them but because of their styles of management. Chaos preffers to enslave and corrupt. Undead prefer to kill and raise. The differnce being that Chaos like to have their victims turn to the dark side and Undead just want you as a hapless slave with no will.

Didn't Nagash create that elixer that created Vampires from warpstone long ago? I think i recall that somewhere. If so Vampires were, in a way, created from the stuff of Chaos.

Hashut
14-09-2006, 06:30
Fluffwise ninja vampires are out of the question. Its just plain ridiculous.
Ninja's are assassins. They kill people, they DO NOT suck blood out of living things

Erm, yes. That is what Ninjas are like in the real world. Why is it so unreasonable to assume that a 'Ninja' Vampire, would not sneak in somewhere, assassinate somebody, and then such their blood from the corpse? It's hardly a stretch of the imagination, given that we are dealing with the context of a fantasy world.

So fluffwise they are not out of the question in Warhammer, a fantasy game, where there is no material covering the behaviour, or even existance of more mundane Ninja, let alone vampire ones.

silashand
14-09-2006, 07:52
maybe its just me, but I would like to see the vampires toned back a lot... both in abilites (and points) and also as the focal point of the army. I *like* necromancers. (and wraiths). They are far more evocative than 'night haunting blood drinker that happens to be leading an army for reasons that aren't clear, and we won't even mention the issue of daytime battles at all.'

For me I disagree entirely. Vampires are the archetypical villain and should be IMO almost the most powerful individuals in the Warhammer world. JMO, though I would like to see more Thralls on the field. You almost never see them now...

Cheers, Gary

Jedi152
14-09-2006, 08:29
About werewolves and vampires:
Isnt it like "common lore" that these two races are long known for their rivality and hatred for each other?, like it is known in most fantasy settings that dwarves and elves dont like each other.
I can't say i've ever heard of that outside of Underworld.

Weres do exist in warhammer, but have no affinity with undead whatsoever. Why would they?

I think everyone's reading too much into ninja vampire. The VC book only stated that one went east - if they do follow that bloodline then an eastern-style warrior vampire is more likely (think like the warriors of Khand in LOTR).

If they do do actual ninja vampires, i will sell my vampire army and never pick up the book again in disgust. So far GW has evaded the "ninjorz+teh samurai are teh keeeewwl!!!!!!!!!!!lol!!!" phase that all kids seem to be going through...

McBaine
14-09-2006, 08:48
What's about all that Ninja-Bloodline Vampires, Werewolfs and Plastic Ghouls or that kind of stuff ?
Wasn't it said that Bloodlines should be more like examples ? Gav said (according to unheilig) :
Vampires: Gav feels the bloodlines are too restrictive. allusions were made to more customizable vampires. the bloodlines should serve as examples, not restrictions.
From Avian came this :
Gav Thorpe has denied rumours of plastic Ghouls and Dire wolves as well as the existance of a new unit type of Werewolves.

marv335
14-09-2006, 08:51
i'd like to see the black periapt (sp) wording tightened up. it's a little too cheap for it's effects.
and i'd also like them to put a stop to blood dragon vampire lords riding zombie dragons ;)

vinush
14-09-2006, 09:37
The focus of the new rules for WFB in general, according to one of the Hobby Managers (one of the big cheeses) is a move to the 2,000 point games.

It was explained to me that 40k is a game about a skirmish, whereas WFB is a game about an army. With that in mind, an army is led by a General (i.e. a Lord)

Thralls don't get used much because they're too expensive in less than 2,000 and take up a much needed character slot for a magic user.

I play Von Carstein, and in 2,000 points+ I'll always take a count and a thrall for that classic Husband and Wife partnership. In 1,000 I don't take a thrall because a Necromancer could never boss it around, so I stick to a Wraith and a Wight to accompany my Necromancer into battle.

Vince.

Gorbad Ironclaw
14-09-2006, 09:57
Speaking of which...
maybe its just me, but I would like to see the vampires toned back a lot... both in abilites (and points) and also as the focal point of the army. I *like* necromancers. (and wraiths). They are far more evocative than 'night haunting blood drinker that happens to be leading an army for reasons that aren't clear, and we won't even mention the issue of daytime battles at all.'



Just you I think. I actually choice VC because I'd get to play with Vampires. I wanted some hard, armoured fighters that could actually survive in an extended fight.

Besides, that was kind of the whole idea of the split, to create a vampire army, and a lich army.

And as for daytime battles. You do know that Warhammer Vampires doesn't die to sunlight, right? Weakens them(for some of them), maybe, and sure, it might burn some of them, but it's not like sunlight is instantly going to obliterate a Vampire in Warhammer. Although presently, I do have a necromancer leading my army. But thats so to better allow my vampires to do there job fighting.



Thralls don't get used much because they're too expensive in less than 2,000 and take up a much needed character slot for a magic user.

I disagree. I use two thralls in my 2k army, backed up by two necromancers. Works perfectly fine. And I also use at least one in less than 2k. The Thrall BSB is just so good that it's hard to pass up.

Gekiganger
14-09-2006, 16:54
Just you I think. I actually choice VC because I'd get to play with Vampires. I wanted some hard, armoured fighters that could actually survive in an extended fight.

Meh, he isn't alone. Only reason I have a VC army is because I was a leftover from the undead age. Shattered me when they split...

Anyway, I'm just hoping for some new sculpts and perhaps a new unit type, definitly want bloodlines sorting out.

Revlid
14-09-2006, 17:22
If I am right were there not a clan of Werewolves in one of the Slayer series of BL books? (was it Vampire slayer?)


Aye, in Trollslayer. The Children of Ulric.

As has been said, it's nigh-impossible to make a Chaos Vampire, since their souls have been bound to their bodies, and are "beyond the reach of gods".


maybe its just me, but I would like to see the vampires toned back a lot... both in abilites (and points) and also as the focal point of the army. I *like* necromancers. (and wraiths).

While I'd like to see Necromancer armies made a more plausible choice, I don't think Vampires need to be toned down in their role or their power. For reasons stated numerous times in numerous books.


They are far more evocative than 'night haunting blood drinker that happens to be leading an army for reasons that aren't clear, and we won't even mention the issue of daytime battles at all.'

What's unclear? They're leading the army because, as Vampires, they have an innate understanding of Necromancy and are more powerful, charismatic, survivable and sane than most Necromancers.

Daylight doesn't destroy most Vampires. It weakens some, hurts others, kills some, and barely irritates others. Besides the fact that Vampires can call up sandstorms, clouds, etc, to protect themselves from the sun.

Grunge
14-09-2006, 19:29
A ogre like unit of Werewolves would be real cool.Arenīt the Von Carstein so linked to wolves already?

gorenut
14-09-2006, 19:42
A ogre like unit of Werewolves would be real cool.Arenīt the Von Carstein so linked to wolves already?


Ogre-like units would kind of take a little away from Tomb Kings. Part of their appeal is that they are undead that get large constructs.

m1s1n
14-09-2006, 19:49
You can always convert Bull Ogres if need be.

nagash42
14-09-2006, 21:04
i remember when they were all in one book i would use the lich as a general as he was a strong caster and not that bad in combat as he had a high toughness.

What i want is for a lich to be able to lead the army again and tomb kings arn't the same as the liche priest doesn't lead the army and is nowhere near as good in combat.

Michaelius
14-09-2006, 21:46
Good old undead "undivaded" would be amazing army to play :D

Akuma
14-09-2006, 22:01
I would rather see less specific bloodlines ( more generic vampires ) - a pool of powers that are for every vamp out there AND for Gods sake - do 40 pts 1 lvl magic upgrade for vamp thrall ...

vinush
15-09-2006, 00:07
I would rather see less specific bloodlines ( more generic vampires ) - a pool of powers that are for every vamp out there AND for Gods sake - do 40 pts 1 lvl magic upgrade for vamp thrall ...

Here here!

I don't like using Necrarchs to have a thrall leading my army.

I tend not to use my VC army that often because most of my oponents won't play 2k point games.

Vince.

UltimateNagash
15-09-2006, 09:21
Akuma and vinush, look at me site on my sig, anc click on New Stuff, then go to the bottom. Well, all fo New Stuff actually. I came up with loads of ideas you've suggested, so you're not alone in these ideas.
The difference is I'm going to send my stuff to GW when I feel it's OK.

Revlid
15-09-2006, 13:19
The "Undivided" Undead army will likely be represent by a "Cult of Nagash" armylist for the Rise of Nagash campaign.


Arenīt the Von Carstein so linked to wolves already?

Only because they are creatures of the night with easily dominated pack-minds who are extremely common in Sylvania. More convenience than any real significance that could lead to werewolf links.

For the Thrall-General, why not simply allow Thralls to be generals? Their will is certainly strong enough that they might have raised some of the Undead over time themselves.
Or, yeah, 40 points level 1 upgrade.

Voltaire
15-09-2006, 13:29
>> Please don't flay me for this <<

Does anyone recall the CSM Codex system for customising a Chaos Lord?

Imagine if you had Bloodline Powers like the Daemonic Gifts. Put them ALL into a single pit or potential powers. You start out basic and equip them on a Vampire Count. After a certain point, that vampire count then becomes a Vampire Lord. This means you can have a rather fluffy and excellent Lord that feels a lot more personal. Some people will complain that this makes the VC General bad and all a bit samey as power configs arise, but I think thats part of the learning curve.

UltimateNagash
15-09-2006, 14:04
Good idea Voltaire.
Oh, by the way, according to Harry, we don't get any Werewolves of Golems: http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=942566#post942566
Shame really. They could have been good units...

Gekiganger
15-09-2006, 17:11
>> Please don't flay me for this <<

Does anyone recall the CSM Codex system for customising a Chaos Lord?

Imagine if you had Bloodline Powers like the Daemonic Gifts. Put them ALL into a single pit or potential powers. You start out basic and equip them on a Vampire Count. After a certain point, that vampire count then becomes a Vampire Lord. This means you can have a rather fluffy and excellent Lord that feels a lot more personal. Some people will complain that this makes the VC General bad and all a bit samey as power configs arise, but I think thats part of the learning curve.

I'm thinking they'll be done similar to lizardmen spawnings?

Gekiga out!

Voss
15-09-2006, 17:20
While I'd like to see Necromancer armies made a more plausible choice, I don't think Vampires need to be toned down in their role or their power. For reasons stated numerous times in numerous books.

I must have missed a lot of books then, because I can't think of a single book-born reason that backs up the vampire part of your statement.


@Gorbad- lich isn't the same thing as necromancer, so the split isn't exactly relevant.

Maybe I'm still just disappointed at the major change several editions back- when the emphasis in the army changed from Necromancers (who had a lot of background and fiction surrounding them) to Vampires (which thanks to pop culture trash, I can't think of as anything but bland, boring and overdone.)

vinush
15-09-2006, 18:02
A liche was always meant to be a Necromancer who had managed to cheat death once it had claimed him. A liche was a Necromancer who had died but brought himself back with his will alone.

If the bloodlne powers are no longer bloodline specific they could keep the Necrach power Nehekara's Noble Blood, but make it available for any Vampire to use.

Imagine, a Von Carstein thrall who can lead the army! I'm tingling with anticipation already.

Vince.

Gekiganger
16-09-2006, 17:03
Two Questions:

1: Anyone got a date on the release

Edit: Forget that one, Yet again Hastings has already posted it.

2: Are people certain that there will be a new zombie set? I'm wanting it for some other uses :)

Multifarious
16-09-2006, 19:29
# The dandy, city-dwelling Vampire who hunts in high society (Tom Cruise or Antonio Banderas in Interview with the Vampire).
# A tribal bloodline from the Southlands, mostly based on voodoo magic and folklore (have you seen the Candyman series? Watch out for mirrors!).
# A manipulative, gluttonous and overweight monster and his underlings (a vampiric Jabba the Hut, Baron Vladimir Harkonnen from Dune, the gross demon in Buffy, the keeper of the Vampires' library in Blade or Fat Bloke and his WD team!).
# The leader of a thugee-like, death-worshipping cult from the steaming jungles of the East (who can forget the heart-ripping bad guy in Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom?).
# The fallen angel, a modern vegetarian Vampire with a conscience (Brad Pitt in Interview with the Vampire or Brandon Lee in The Crow. OK, I know he wasn't a Vampire, but he certainly was an Undead hero).
# A mysterious oriental bloodline from Cathay (Emperor Ming the Merciless meets Fu Man Chu. Have you seen Big Trouble in Little China?).
# The Ghoul King who reigns over his court of foul things and hides in dark crypts, shunned by the living and by the other Vampires, devoured by an eternal all-encompassing hatred (a very Lovecraftian character, I imagined it as an oversized Gollum from Lord of the Rings or, if you have watched Francis Ford Coppola's masterpiece, it's Dracula in his bat-monster shape, just before he turns into a rat swarm).
# The last one I won't reveal here, because it did not go into the book, but we will use it in the future as a new Bloodline. Curious? Watch this space…

That was from the designers notes of the last one. Concepts for the new bloodline.

vampires are cool!
17-09-2006, 02:04
as memory serves, they did used to be 75 pts but they also had a special chill attack that inflicted a -1 on all people hitting them - as well as being ethereal!

sephiroth87
17-09-2006, 04:28
Originally Posted by Voss
Speaking of which...
maybe its just me, but I would like to see the vampires toned back a lot... both in abilites (and points) and also as the focal point of the army. I *like* necromancers. (and wraiths). They are far more evocative than 'night haunting blood drinker that happens to be leading an army for reasons that aren't clear, and we won't even mention the issue of daytime battles at all.'

I agree completely. Bring back my Undead army! Not this piddly-assed Vampire Count, leftover, jacked-up mess that I've been stuck with.

Give me villagers with pitchforks, lots of shambling, and a 175 point Black Coach! And no jumping-jack looking characters!

Damnit...

prince_dios
17-09-2006, 08:35
It's not likely, but I'd like to see the appendix army rules for Von Carsteins taking human militia canonized.

Gekiganger
17-09-2006, 10:05
It's not likely, but I'd like to see the appendix army rules for Von Carsteins taking human militia canonized.

Perhaps an upgrade for zombies? Strip them of some of their stat weaknesses?

Or maybe a scouting type unit considering they will be able to march etc

Revlid
17-09-2006, 10:30
I'm thinking they'll be done similar to lizardmen spawnings?

Gekiga out!

Oh, god no. Apart from the fact that Spawnings are also available to units, Character Spawnings have to be one of the things changing in the new LM armbook. Bloodline Powers not coming out of magic item allowance? Ugh.

And by the "non-bloodline specific powers" I assume people mean a general pool of them alongside specific ones.

Voltaire
17-09-2006, 10:59
Thats what I was thinking...something like the Chaos Undivided daemonic powers and the four powers ones in Hordes of Chaos.

Akuma
17-09-2006, 10:59
I mean that there should be few ( 1 or 2 ) bloodline powers specific to each bloodline and big pool of generic ones + Does Woodelves kindreds come out of mp allowance .... ?

UltimateNagash
17-09-2006, 11:29
Two Questions:

1: Anyone got a date on the release

Edit: Forget that one, Yet again Hastings has already posted it.
Where has Hastings put it up. I can't find it...

2: Are people certain that there will be a new zombie set? I'm wanting it for some other uses :)
Isn't the old Zombie set good enough?

McBaine
17-09-2006, 11:53
I would like to see the Great Weapon Option for the Grave Guard like in the Sylvania SoC List. Just the Great Weapons, I don't need the Plate Armour really (but if there's no other Choice...:D ).

Gekiganger
17-09-2006, 13:26
Where has Hastings put it up. I can't find it...

Can't remember now, It's in the rumour roundup I think. Predicted 4th quartile.



Isn't the old Zombie set good enough?

You mean the ones with the giant hands and heads? Sorry, but I want somthing that looks like it causes fear, not laughter.

Gekiga Out!

A.C.
17-09-2006, 13:57
That&#180;s true. Good joke Gekiganger :D:D:D:D

Karhedron
17-09-2006, 15:50
I would like to see the Great Weapon Option for the Grave Guard like in the Sylvania SoC List. Just the Great Weapons, I don't need the Plate Armour really (but if there's no other Choice...:D ).
It is probably that Great Weapons make too good a combo with Hellish vigour. First strike, rerolling all misses and +2 strength. It is just such a good choice as to be virtually a no-brainer.

Revlid
17-09-2006, 19:30
True.
I'm just trying to figure out what these "generic" bloodline powers would consist of. Turning into mist is too CoMS related, and/or would take away from Bat Form. I... can't really think of anything else.

Gekiganger
17-09-2006, 19:44
True.
I'm just trying to figure out what these "generic" bloodline powers would consist of. Turning into mist is too CoMS related, and/or would take away from Bat Form. I... can't really think of anything else.

There's always simple things like additions to stats or poison attacks etc.

Gekiga Out!

UltimateNagash
17-09-2006, 20:04
Here's some ideas:
Blood Kiss: If the vampire kills a character in hand-to-hand combat, it can grant the Blood Kiss to this single lucky individual. This turns the slain character into a Vampire Thrall (use the standard Vampire Thrall statistics) who is now under the control of the Undead player. He retains any magic items and any steed he is riding turns into a Nightmare. The character immediately joins the vampire or the unit it is leading. If the character was riding a monster, the two are separated. The monster will behave exactly as if its rider had been killed. The vampire may grant the Blood Kiss only once per battle. 65pts.
Blood Drain: whenever the Vampire kills a model, it gains a Wound. 50pts
Mist Form: 20pts: can move through any terrain.

Gekiganger
17-09-2006, 20:08
Here's some ideas:
Blood Kiss: If the vampire kills a character in hand-to-hand combat, it can grant the Blood Kiss to this single lucky individual. This turns the slain character into a Vampire Thrall (use the standard Vampire Thrall statistics) who is now under the control of the Undead player. He retains any magic items and any steed he is riding turns into a Nightmare. The character immediately joins the vampire or the unit it is leading. If the character was riding a monster, the two are separated. The monster will behave exactly as if its rider had been killed. The vampire may grant the Blood Kiss only once per battle. 65pts.
Blood Drain: whenever the Vampire kills a model, it gains a Wound. 50pts
Mist Form: 20pts: can move through any terrain.

Nice, I wouldn't allow the vampire to keep mount/Magic items etc as it could unbalance things.

Gekiga Out!

vinush
17-09-2006, 23:20
Looks good. If only they were actually in the rules...

Vince.

Splagbot
17-09-2006, 23:40
Right I just want to make it clear that I am in no way dissing Vampire Counts, but I have to ask the question, do they realy need another army book, this will be the third they've had and I can't help but wonder if it's really necessary, surely the army book can't be so bad as to warrant another one so soon.

Again I state, I'm just asking.

vinush
17-09-2006, 23:43
Well, do any of the armys need new army books?

With the release of the Seveth edition rules, it is necessary to update all army books to be fully compliant with the new rules.

Granted, Vampire Counts isn't desparate for the new book, but there are many complaints out there, and have been since the current book was released, and those complaints have been raised here.

Vince.

ekxw
17-09-2006, 23:56
uhmm they need a good miniature change, cause some miniatures have more than 8 years, uhmm rules wise they are more or less balanced, and most of the options are used less vampire clans. but all the troops are usefull their own way

EvC
18-09-2006, 01:19
The Blood Kiss is in the rules for Neferata, and it sucks! It must not ever be allowed to return to the game...

gorenut
18-09-2006, 03:50
Here's some ideas:
Blood Kiss: If the vampire kills a character in hand-to-hand combat, it can grant the Blood Kiss to this single lucky individual. This turns the slain character into a Vampire Thrall (use the standard Vampire Thrall statistics) who is now under the control of the Undead player. He retains any magic items and any steed he is riding turns into a Nightmare. The character immediately joins the vampire or the unit it is leading. If the character was riding a monster, the two are separated. The monster will behave exactly as if its rider had been killed. The vampire may grant the Blood Kiss only once per battle. 65pts.
Blood Drain: whenever the Vampire kills a model, it gains a Wound. 50pts
Mist Form: 20pts: can move through any terrain.

THe idea for bloodkiss is cool, but I don't think it should work like that. I believe it takes time for a vampire to turn, even then I'm sure they start off weak.. and then theres that whole deal of whether or not the thrall will listen to his master (there have been plenty of incidents where thralls overthrew their masters : Mannfred, Zachy, etc).
As far as the Blooddrink.. I believe there's already a sword that steals wounds.. not very price efficient though.

NakedFisherman
18-09-2006, 04:37
The Blood Kiss kills the enemy...then they need to revive as a Vampire. Really should never be in the game...

lorelorn
18-09-2006, 08:01
this will be the third they've had and I can't help but wonder if it's really necessary, surely the army book can't be so bad as to warrant another one so soon.

Again I state, I'm just asking.

Simply stated, it's go nothing to do with the books. It's all about the miniatures. Vampire Counts, after Empire are the army most in need of a 'refresh' in terms of their line-up. After VC I would expect to see Dark Elves, and for the same reason.

If it were about the books they would be bringing out Skaven, Dark Elves, and Bretonnians before anyone else, probably followed by High Elves.

McBaine
18-09-2006, 09:02
It is probably that Great Weapons make too good a combo with Hellish vigour. First strike, rerolling all misses and +2 strength. It is just such a good choice as to be virtually a no-brainer.
Hmm, you're probably right... i didn't thought on Hellish Vigor, but this is something what not everytime happens... you must have the Spell, pass your roll and your foe can ban it... but if it comes through... yeah, that would be hard...


uhmm they need a good miniature change, cause some miniatures have more than 8 years
I agree. I want Black Knights which Nightmares have Barding, and not the naked ones they actually have...

Gorbad Ironclaw
18-09-2006, 10:51
Simply stated, it's go nothing to do with the books. It's all about the miniatures. Vampire Counts, after Empire are the army most in need of a 'refresh' in terms of their line-up. After VC I would expect to see Dark Elves, and for the same reason.



Eh? Dark Elves got one of the very best model lines still. So that can't be why. They only really need to redo the cold ones(again...) and the hydra.

Scythe
18-09-2006, 12:45
i remember when they were all in one book i would use the lich as a general as he was a strong caster and not that bad in combat as he had a high toughness.

What i want is for a lich to be able to lead the army again and tomb kings arn't the same as the liche priest doesn't lead the army and is nowhere near as good in combat.

Back in that time, a master necromancer had more attacks as a vampire lord. You can't compare stats from 4th editon books to those of 6th edition books.


Eh? Dark Elves got one of the very best model lines still. So that can't be why. They only really need to redo the cold ones(again...) and the hydra.

Agreed. Tough DEs could use some extra character models, and maybe some better dark riders. However I expect them to get 2-3 extra plastic sets, as every army is getting these days. Since they currently only have plastic warriors, I don't think it is a wild guess to say that they will receive full plastic dark riders, corsairs or cold one knights.

Gekiganger
18-09-2006, 16:54
Eh? Dark Elves got one of the very best model lines still. So that can't be why. They only really need to redo the cold ones(again...) and the hydra.

I'm hoping the warriors will get a new set. The warrior heads really look bad compared to the other elves.

Anyone have any ideas if there will be a plastic cav set for undead?

Gekiga Out!

Scythe
18-09-2006, 18:05
Hmm, no idea yet. I doubt it tough. Can't exactly see Black Knights in plastic. The logical choices for plastics would be skeletons, zombies, ghouls and dire wolves. But then I might be wrong...

Gekiganger
18-09-2006, 18:44
Hmm, no idea yet. I doubt it tough. Can't exactly see Black Knights in plastic. The logical choices for plastics would be skeletons, zombies, ghouls and dire wolves. But then I might be wrong...

I was hoping for roughly 3 plastic sets (although lots were rumoured).

Skeletons and zombies I expect (And need zombies for converting).

Ghouls and dire wolves haev been denied IIRC.

Unless it's an elite infantry I was guessing a undead cav set (Could there possibly be more cav in the new book?)

Gekiga Out!

EvC
18-09-2006, 20:25
I'm somehow thinking there might be full Wight plastic goodness, with a boxed set of say 12 (Great number!) Grave Guard, and then another box of 8 Black Knights using elements of the Grave Guard sprue...

Brother Bart
18-09-2006, 23:50
Hmm, no idea yet. I doubt it tough. Can't exactly see Black Knights in plastic. The logical choices for plastics would be skeletons, zombies, ghouls and dire wolves. But then I might be wrong...



I can see the skeletons getting a new sprue or two, the current ones have been out for well over 10 years and with some of the advances they have made in plastic casting technology, I'm sure they could be improved at least a little (at least update the hand weapons, spears and make some plastic coffin lid sheilds). Better yet, the new skellies could have bits of armor from various existing living armies draped over their bones, as well as damaged bretonian/empire sheilds and weapons. As far as Zombies are concerned, the models haven't been out that long...and in my opinion, are still a very cool plastic set. I don't see them releasing a new zombie sprue. Plastic ghouls would be a godsend because the metal ones are so darn pricey (although seeing models in plastic doesnt necissarily mean cheaper...Space Marine Dread and goblin fanatics are two examples where they actually got more expensive) and plastic dire wolves would definitly be a great idea whether they were denied or not.

Also, the nechrarch vamps could use a little love as far as new sculpts are concerned and a new unit (werewolves romoured?) would be the icing on the cake.

vinush
18-09-2006, 23:52
The Von Carstein's could do with some decent models for a change.

Vince.

Scythe
19-09-2006, 07:56
I can see the skeletons getting a new sprue or two, the current ones have been out for well over 10 years and with some of the advances they have made in plastic casting technology, I'm sure they could be improved at least a little (at least update the hand weapons, spears and make some plastic coffin lid sheilds). Better yet, the new skellies could have bits of armor from various existing living armies draped over their bones, as well as damaged bretonian/empire sheilds and weapons. As far as Zombies are concerned, the models haven't been out that long...and in my opinion, are still a very cool plastic set. I don't see them releasing a new zombie sprue. Plastic ghouls would be a godsend because the metal ones are so darn pricey (although seeing models in plastic doesnt necissarily mean cheaper...Space Marine Dread and goblin fanatics are two examples where they actually got more expensive) and plastic dire wolves would definitly be a great idea whether they were denied or not.

Also, the nechrarch vamps could use a little love as far as new sculpts are concerned and a new unit (werewolves romoured?) would be the icing on the cake.

Well, I was not talking about new sets directly, more about the total amount of sets we might end up with. I for one like the current skeleton and zombie sprues; they dragged me into this game. But then I also like the normal Black Knights and Grave Guard. Tough I agree most vampires could use a serious update.

ORKY ARD BOYZ
19-09-2006, 08:11
Idon't know if anyone else thinks so but the vampire counts have some pretty bad minatures. (no offense intended, it's just my opinion.) The sketetons are all human or beastman, and we get so may grave stones it isn't funny. I don't even want to mention the shields. (I'd thought they could change them to be empire or beastman shields.) the zombies are cool and don't need to be changed. Lahimain vampires have weird faces and fair. The von castiens are okay but could be better. the fell bats are all in the same position. They could also change the grave guard and black knights apart from that the minature range is pretty good. just when all your skeletons look the same with unrealistic pirate shields and an undead army would be wrong without skeletons then you would hope for the skeleton set to be changed too.

Indrid Khold
19-09-2006, 08:40
I think the Grave Guard look pretty cool, but the Black Knights need revision as dead versions of the various knights of the Empire and Bretonnia.

The problem with the vampires themselves, particularly the Blood Dragons, is the need to give them the wide open mouth to show off the fangs. It looks rather goofy and out of character (high class aristocrats/proud knights hissing like animals?), in my opinion.

Jedi152
19-09-2006, 08:49
VC have far and away the worst line.

The 2 plastic kits are the best mini's in the range, and they are starting to show their age. The skeletons need joined waists, smaller hands, better shields (how's about a sprue of smashed up Brettonian/Empire/General ones?). Zombies need: smaller hands! and maybe some more imperial looking clothing, so we can get a few soldier zombies.

Spirit hosts - awful, need to be either ghosts of soldiers/civilians or like the Twilight Ringwraiths in LOTR - swathed in robes and rags.
Wraiths - Need to change poses. The sythes are cheesy and cliche, but is the only thing that differenciates them from Ringwraiths.
Dire Wolves - need to look more like chaos hounds.
Black Knights/GG - need to look like either dead/mangled knights (A mixture of Empire/Bretonnian/general) or like ancient nobles, as the background says.
Bat Swarms - need to actually look like bats!

Necromancers - should look like scruffy, dirty old men. No swords, just staffs. No more big camp skulls. A necromancer would dress so that it's not obvious what he is.

Necrarchs - should be small skinny things covered in swathes of robes.
Von Carsteins - Should look just like Imperial nobles.
Lahmians - should look more seductive.
Blood Dragons - Not too bad as they are, but can we drop the cheesy FFC Dracula 'muscle-y' red armour?
Strigoi - Two sorts - small a rangey, but with big claws, like the pic on the Strigoi bloodline page, and big and beefy. Make their feet bigger, the current ones would have a hell of a lot of trouble balancing.

Indrid Khold
19-09-2006, 09:30
To me an interesting thing about the Vampire Counts army is that, while it's range isn't the greatest, nobody seems to mind much. Are there any VC armies out there that exculsivelyuse VC miniatures? Most people convert other armies into the undead and use those.

Now, the very fact that so many people feel they have to do that speaks to how poor the range is, but it's kind of cool to me that such a characterful alternative exists. Better than poor Dark Eldar players stuck with a crappy range and nothing to do about it (nothing much anyway, headswaps with less absurd CW Eldar models work pretty well, but I digress).

And now to pose a question: What model/bits would folks recommend for a Blood Dragon Vampire? None of the official figures do it for me (the fellow holding his lance in the air almost works, but he's doing that annoying hissing thing), but I'm having a hard time finding any other suitably menacing knightly models. The backstory I've written for my vampire is that he was an Empire knight, so I want to stay away from the Bretonnian style armor, but all the empire characters have hammers or big fu manchu moustaches and their standard knights wear the full helms ... So I'm kind of stymied here. Any recommendations? At the moment I'm leaning towards getting the Classic mounted Blood Dragon, he looks pretty good even if he does have a rather large hat.

Scythe
19-09-2006, 09:39
I think the Grave Guard look pretty cool, but the Black Knights need revision as dead versions of the various knights of the Empire and Bretonnia.


Most people say this, and I really can't agree here. Black Knights and Grave Guard are Wights, and are by description ancient. They could be from times even before Brettonia and the Empire existed. They would definitely not look like the current knights of those nations. People convert them that way, fine by me, but the representing gw models should look ancient, not like some current Brettonian or Empire knights ripoff.

And, in my opinion, the current Black Knight models do not do such a bad job for that. But I feel that's just me.

Indrid Khold
19-09-2006, 09:42
That's a valid point. The army I'm playing is Blood Dragons, and I figure his Black Knights are largely those knights he's killed in battle, but according to the general VC backstory they should be much older. The current models look pretty good for this, I agree, but they're too damned expensive. A plastic box with the makings for either ancient or recently dead horsemen sure would be nice...

Scythe
19-09-2006, 09:50
Certainly. Plastics are always nice, if only for the converting options. However I really feel that the 'standard' gw knight should look old, from another time era. People wanting to theme their army around empire or brettonian fallen knights could still easily convert those from the sets of those armies (maybe combined with such a new plastic set).

Jedi152
19-09-2006, 09:56
And now to pose a question: What model/bits would folks recommend for a Blood Dragon Vampire?
Hows about the generic DoW general (http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=comp0214002&orignav=13)?

You'd have to stick a lance on his back, but i think he work's well as a vampire, and is in full armour.

Indrid Khold
19-09-2006, 10:10
Certainly. Plastics are always nice, if only for the converting options. However I really feel that the 'standard' gw knight should look old, from another time era. People wanting to theme their army around empire or brettonian fallen knights could still easily convert those from the sets of those armies (maybe combined with such a new plastic set).

Fair enough.



Hows about the generic DoW general?

You'd have to stick a lance on his back, but i think he work's well as a vampire, and is in full armour.

He does look like he'd work as a vampire, but I'd prefer a clean-shaven figure to a crusty old veteran like that. Residual Anne Rice conditioning maybe, but all my vampires must be young and pretty!

I'm thinking I may just break down and use one of the standard BD figures, but stick him on a rearing up horse. Which then brings the problem of a damn rearing up horse! Are Tyron and the Green Knight the only ones without legs attached to the horse body!

Grr.... we never used to have these sort of problems back in the year 40,000....

prince_dios
19-09-2006, 23:34
Looks like we're all in agreement that the age of generic undead needs to end.

I'd like to see a consistent undead theme - like empire or some long-gone culture. Say, Norman-like soldiers with kite shields and chain hauberks, or more medieval Empire soldiers, et cetera. Easily swappable parts for those of us who like conversions, and a consistent theme for those who don't or can't afford to.

Gorbad Ironclaw
20-09-2006, 09:40
Try and have a look at the Dark Elf models for Blood Dragons.

Malus Darkblade is a very nice mounted figure, and would be quite good for a blood dragon(well, I used him for that:p). Also, the Black Guard command group are good for vampires on foot.

Narok
20-09-2006, 17:04
What do you think about the new rulebook? Is good for VC or not? Designers says in WD this new book will be equilibrated and just for all armies. But now a magical failure (double one) will be deadly for some magicians (necromancers, empire mages). But for other armies (Khemri and Ogres) this doesnīt affect. Khemri mummies make fun of all of us while magic is the only weapon of VC. And is the only weapon because the fear are useless. the last 6 games I have play no one have make a fear test (Ogres, Silvan Elves Spirits, Khemri, Gigants, and so on). No body flees from my skeletons! And in the new rulebook it is more difficult that they flee whit the new panic rule. So VC is an army that only wins Imperium. A good general whit the rest of armies will crash all your pathetic dead warriors. Now you cannīt place your necromancer or banshee alone and near a unit because the enemy can shoot him whit arrows or magic!. And put your general in the front of a unit is a suicide. He will be engaged and swated. So whit the new rules, VC is an expensive and weak army.

Scythe
20-09-2006, 17:44
Point me out where exactly VCs suffer. Miscast nastier? Yes, but everyone bar a few suffer from that too. Necromancers on their own? I always placed them in units anyway. Banshees targetable? Well, ok, it is a small disadvantage, but you are still immuune to all non-magical shooting, unlike other races.

Ow, and those summoned units now destroy the enemy quite nicely when he tries to flee trough them.

ORKY ARD BOYZ
21-09-2006, 10:19
For banshees and wraiths I used the lord of the rings Barrow wights
For skeleton shields I got random shields from my bits box.
For grave guard I got a unit of dark elf exectionors and painted them like the ancient vampires in underworld evolution.

vorac
21-09-2006, 10:25
Hey Indrid Khold

you might try the old Red duke model from the VC archives, he looks cool, is on a really nice nightmare and he doesn't look like he is hissing more of an angry stare, you could just change his head but when it comes down to blooddragons i find he is the best. i actually have 2 one i changed a bit with and old chaos knight lance.

dominic_carrillo
13-03-2007, 03:47
come on baby... daddy needs a liche!!
With my luck im probably going to get a dead giant, or perhaps the undead constructs rule, which will be lame as hell

McBaine
13-03-2007, 11:21
Hmm, I thougt about the Lich... but I'm not sure about it. Well, any other old Unit is in the Tomb Kings Book, but perhaps the "new old" Unit is the Rank&File Wraith Unit...
But I would like the Lich too, and Arkhan the Black as Special Char

spikedog
13-03-2007, 11:31
dominic_carrillo - Did you even read the date of the last post in this thread?

This thread is 6 months old and its not the first time you have done this either.

Grunge
13-03-2007, 12:31
So? Its as fresh as it was back then! And as I havent been following the VC news, can someone sum them up for me? :cries:

FatOlaf
13-03-2007, 15:43
sum it up for you..yes....2008

Arnizipal
13-03-2007, 20:27
So? Its as fresh as it was back then! And as I havent been following the VC news, can someone sum them up for me? :cries:
*sigh*

We have a rumour roundup forum (http://www.warseer.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=63), you know?

Wintermute
13-03-2007, 20:53
Thread Necromancy in a Vampire thread :rolleyes:

Thread Closed

Wintermute
The WarSeer Inquisition