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lomo
11-09-2006, 15:49
Hey,
I have been away from 40k for about 5 years and have been playing again for about 3-4 months. When I started playing(1995-ish) Mr 40K was Andy Chambers, I recently found out he left Games Workshop in 2004. I have looked around the net a little but havent found any real info why he left actually left.

So my question is, why did he leave? Was it just time to move on or was it controversial.

Sorry if this is old old news and been gone over a million times, but I would like to know....and sorry if it appears like I have been living on Mars for 5 years, in a cave, with my hands over my ears and my eyes shut.

Cherrystone
11-09-2006, 16:13
Check out http://www.redstargames.net/pravda.html

Sai-Lauren
11-09-2006, 16:17
Well, it's not actually come out yet as to why he left, but he did start up Red Star Games as his own company, wrote a Necromunda novel for Black Library (Survival Instinct - ok, but overly gore-laden :rolleyes: ), free-lanced for Mongoose to create Starship Troopers, and free-lanced for GW on the proposed re-launch of Battlefleet Gothic, before it got pulled with the effective demise of Specialist Games.

A few months ago he seemingly shut down Red Star, and went to the US to work for Blizzard Software.

There was a rumour that he was effectively fired from the design team because his version of 40k 3.1 was, to put it mildly, an utter joke, and the rest of the 40k team had to throw something in place at ludicrously short notice to make the release date.
Equally, he could have simply have had enough of internal politics in GW or felt he had done all he could do in the WFB and 40k universes and wanted to go off and play in some other universes for a while.

But I doubt we'll ever know the truth.

grickherder
11-09-2006, 16:53
"It's been rather painful to contrast this with the difficulties Games Workshop has found itself in over the last year as several of my friends there have been forced to move on. I can only hope that this creates a realization that an expansive retail organisation and integrated manufacturing capacity is no substitute for originality and diversity in the modern market."
-- Andy Chambers

Lots of clues in there. Pretty much spells it out actually.

t-tauri
11-09-2006, 17:03
There was a rumour that he was effectively fired from the design team because his version of 40k 3.1 was, to put it mildly, an utter joke, and the rest of the 40k team had to throw something in place at ludicrously short notice to make the release date.
The slant I heard was that he wanted more time to improve 4th edition and when the deadline was brought forward the teddy left the pram.

grickherder
11-09-2006, 17:32
I think it basically came down to GW wanting to rehash and resell the same thing again and again and he wanted to do something new and creative with the rules.

There has been huge turn over in the studio staff. If they don't leave, they often get taken off of projects (or take themselves off) and moved onto other things.

I think the worries expressed over the last 10 years that the design studio would be stifled by GW's corporate suits has pretty much come to pass.

Footsteps
11-09-2006, 18:31
sai laurens got closest, when he presented the final version it was unplayable,the toys were thrown out when he was told to change it.
A month of utter panic followed where it was rescued by the rest of the team to the form you see today,it was a completely different game.
While that happenned ,all the personal issues between Andy and the company came to a head and they parted company,the remaining feelings in GW are, more or less, exasperation with Mr chambers as he should have known better.
he's a nice guy, not much of a team player though, cant imagine the flak the whole games dev lot would have got if AC's version of 40k was published as presented.

Chuffy
11-09-2006, 18:35
he's a nice guy, not much of a team player though, cant imagine the flak the whole games dev lot would have got if AC's version of 40k was published as presented.

What was so bad about it then?

Because 4th ed is pretty bad!

BrainFireBob
11-09-2006, 19:04
That really smacks of fanboy propaganda, especially since we know nothing of this "unplayable" version he supposedly did.

My understanding was that he disapproved of the direction the game was being taken, and especially disapproved of suits dictating development to the designers, instead of selling the designer's product- which in a leisure industry built on the quality of its offering, is their job.

salty
11-09-2006, 19:21
I always got the impression (I was a member of Red Star Forums too incidentally, where Mr C posted, albeit infrequently), that Andy was tired of the bland, boring, "dumbing-down" of 40k. Right now, you can liken the "GW High Command" if you will, to Rik Berman of Star Trek (sp?). Its all hash, re-hash, re-hash a bit more, steal another section of another rules set/script until eventually all that is left is a bucket of crap.

Just my opinion.

Salty :)

ExquisiteEvil
11-09-2006, 19:43
AC believed the ruleset or 'the game' to be the driving aspect of 40K, with the miniatures there to just allow you to play.

GW believes in selling miniatures, with 'the game' being just a medium in which to do this.

Obviously they both had almost opposite views which is why AC did(IMO the honourable thing) and left.

Senbei
11-09-2006, 19:52
No... the honarable thing would be for him to take his sword and.......

Sorry, bad Joke. Anybody know what he's up to with Blizz ? I know they released a boardgame of WoW a while ago... Any chance of a tabletop version ? lol.

Maguni
11-09-2006, 20:02
hmm. redstargames' forum has been hacked by the infamous anti-gaming turkish haxzor. He messed up the sites for a bunch of Dawn of war mods as well.

Helicon_One
11-09-2006, 20:14
AC believed the ruleset or 'the game' to be the driving aspect of 40K, with the miniatures there to just allow you to play.

GW believes in selling miniatures, with 'the game' being just a medium in which to do this.

Obviously they both had almost opposite views which is why AC did(IMO the honourable thing) and left.

These two factors are not mutually exclusive, though. A good, enjoyable ruleset will keep players involved in the game and bring in more new faces, all of whom will buy miniatures. A halfarsed hatchet job will alienate existing and potential new customers and drive them away to their XBoxes.

Tim

ExquisiteEvil
11-09-2006, 20:23
These two factors are not mutually exclusive, though. A good, enjoyable ruleset will keep players involved in the game and bring in more new faces, all of whom will buy miniatures. A halfarsed hatchet job will alienate existing and potential new customers and drive them away to their XBoxes.

Tim

try telling that to GW.

they are only concerned with selling 'toy soldiers', as stated several times by Mr.Kirby himself.

Helicon_One
11-09-2006, 20:32
try telling that to GW.

they are only concerned with selling 'toy soldiers', as stated several times by Mr.Kirby himself.
Yes, and a good ruleset which keeps people interested in the game will keep selling miniatures long after a horrible mess of a broken game has annoyed everyone into giving up and spending their disposable income on XBoxes/CDs/extra-strong cider instead.

Tim

Nurglitch
11-09-2006, 20:47
GW rehashing material and sticking to clunky game designs is simply fan service. The fact is that fans of the Warhammer games don't particularly want the rules to change. Take the debacle that was the release of Epic: 40k. They innovated too much and fans, conservative by nature, stopped buying the product.

So GW doesn't want change or innovation because its fans don't want change or innovation. Most fans just want to push plastic, and since Warhammer lets you do that, the fans are content without having to do any onerous reading or learning. After all, you don't want to take time away from the important task of painting and collecting.

By contrast Lord of the Rings was surprisingly innovative, although obviously an extension of the Warhammer design principles. That's because Lord of the Rings didn't have an existing customer base to alienate. That's not to say that GW doesn't want to 'improve' its games, but that it wishes to do so in a gradual and regular fashion. Innovation is allowed where it won't cut into sales, and judicious 'innovation' means they can actually increase sales.

This introduction of planned obsolescence into game design dovetails nicely with GW's strategy of farming its market. A new edition every few years with enough changes to please fans, of a game that requires constant tuning and rejigging, seems to be GW's ideal product. It allows GW to renew its market by introducing new editions of its established games to drum up interest and encourage veterans to expand their collections.

Considering Starship Troopers, one wonders what Warhammer 40k 4th edition could have been like. Probably pretty fun, but not a rehash of 3rd edition and that would have enraged fans.

violenceha
11-09-2006, 21:22
Wow, there really are GW fanboys, i always thought of them as the loch ness monster of warseer, but now i've seen it with my own eyes.
Considering 4th edition is yet another dumbed down set of rules with absolutely no sign of the rumoured "advanced" gaming system, too complicated for the average "gamer", i think it's pretty obvious why Andy Chambers and GW parted ways.

the creator
11-09-2006, 21:59
i use to go drinking with andy. the truth of the matter is that he tried to make the game a bit more fun by increasing the points of units and making the game i little more "real" by adding rules in for events similer to inquisitor (think like individual models in squads not squads as there own entities).

he said that the head office guys wanted the rule the same because the honest truth is (bite that bullet boys and girls...) the current rules breed more money in terms of volume and of army size. also he said that there where creative differences with them too, like what happened to the squats he believed we where being cheated out of a experiance for the inclusion of money. its was boiling for a few years since 3 edition. he wanted it more like 2 edition. i remember when he said how much he hated the way that GW treats veteran players with rules which treat people like idiots

remember this is what i heard not a god-honest quote

hereticdave
11-09-2006, 22:01
I couldn't believe 3rd Ed when it came out and although i've not bothered to read 4th it seems to be of a similar vein. Andy C along with some of the other long time members [Adrian Wood] i felt were solid members of the team who actually had a big part in the development and production and as a consequence had a pride it what was pushed out - now it just seems like a bunch of transient rabble...

hereticdave
11-09-2006, 22:01
Oh and i read Survival Instinct and i thought it was damn good and would highly recommend its purchase. That book *is* Necromunda.

Chuffy
11-09-2006, 22:03
Oh and i read Survival Instinct and i thought it was damn good and would highly recommend its purchase. That book *is* Necromunda.

I highly recommend using the edit button in future.

swordwind
11-09-2006, 22:08
Apparently he's under contract not to say why he left.

susu.exp
11-09-2006, 22:13
Considering that many people still love the earlier editions, you (that, means: Nurglitch) may be right, but I think you are wrong about Epic 40k. The feeling Epic vets had was that you couldn´t "feel" the army anymore. I played a couple of armies in SM/TL and they all felt differently, in E:40k they felt the same. It killed identification and that´s what makes a game where you paint minis and draw in the background. It had brilliant presentation (The E:40k battles book is a fine piece of work, one of my favorite things published by GW). But the rules were too abstract in comparison to the earlier version. They worked in BFG. Epic was brought down by both the ruleset and the pricing, some sprues suddenly cost 3 times their original price with no aparent reason (and as much as I´m used to price hikes, trippling in 6 months is very steep).

When E:40k came out, a lot of people complained about its lack of "realism". Fat bloke wrote a quite acidic editorial about how they couldn´t see the brilliance and why you shouldn´t talk about realism in a game where genetically enhances superhumans fight against mutating gribblies or Orks with guns. What they aparently did not realize was that what people missed wasn´t realism, they didn´t want "brother captian Joe has just run out of ammo" rules, but they wanted the rules to reflect the fluff. When Space hulk was rereleased a quote in WD was that the great thing about it was that "halfway through a game you start to hyperventilate". That kind of thing was missing in E:40k. Instead of feeling like a Marine Commander giving orders, or an Ork Warlord, you felt like a pretty geeky person pushing plastic pieces around a table. So, I´d say E:40k had real realism in spades, in fact: It had too much realism.

Helicon_One
11-09-2006, 22:17
GW rehashing material and sticking to clunky game designs is simply fan service. The fact is that fans of the Warhammer games don't particularly want the rules to change. Take the debacle that was the release of Epic: 40k. They innovated too much and fans, conservative by nature, stopped buying the product.
On the other hand, look at 3rd Ed 40K. That was a pretty major rewrite from 2nd Ed and sold by the bucketload.

Tim

Zephro
11-09-2006, 22:53
Epic 40K was brilliant. It really layed the ground for BFG and Warmaster I felt. Also I thought it really got the feel of that kind of strategy, pinning and firepower and so on.

lomo
11-09-2006, 23:18
WOW guys thanks for the response. Its interesting to try and understand why he left...maybe the hash that is the current edition was to much of an insult to the genius...i heard the current edition aptly referred to as "kiddy-Hammer" the other day, made me laugh.


Now if you want a good laugh go read the thread about GW players being mocked.

Nurglitch
12-09-2006, 00:17
susu.exp:

For the record I loathe pretty much all editions of the Warhammer 40k game.

Helicon_One:

Not among established veterans. Thanks to their relatively small proportion compared to the number of new players, the game grew rather than shrank.

Cap'n Umgrotz
12-09-2006, 00:36
Did Adrian Wood leave the design team?
If Chambers was behind the removal of background from codices, then good riddance.

Easy E
12-09-2006, 00:47
I think that was a higher up decision to save publishing costs. I could be wrong.

Cap'n Umgrotz
12-09-2006, 00:50
I hope so, because I'd rather not bear ill will towards the man, he always seemed quite amiable in interviews and stuff.

Nurglitch
12-09-2006, 00:51
Maybe it was some sort of moonbat lark to encourage creativity on the part of the fans.

NakedFisherman
12-09-2006, 00:56
remember this is what i heard not a god-honest quote

That's what you heard, despite the fact that you went drinking with him...

Ooookay.

Easy E
12-09-2006, 00:58
I think he means, that is how he interpreted it. I'm fairly sure he didn't interview the guy formally.

Or he's full of it.

Cap'n Umgrotz
12-09-2006, 01:10
Maybe it was some sort of moonbat lark to encourage creativity on the part of the fans.

Because as we all know, us wargamers are soooo creative.
Yup.
Dead creative us.:p

Morskittar
12-09-2006, 03:12
Could be that his reasons are personal and not open for public discourse, rather than wild Evil Corporation Versus Heroic Veteran Designer theories.

susu.exp
12-09-2006, 08:21
susu.exp:

For the record I loathe pretty much all editions of the Warhammer 40k game.


I was talking about Epic. The game that now has the best ruleset among GW games, Epic Armageddon basically playing like Epic 40k without reducing the "feel". I think that if the current ruleset had been published instead of E:40k we would now have 4 "core games". Heck, if they released a plastic sprue for one or two armies and backed this with WD support, theyīd probably get sales that would warrant moving it from the specialist section.


Epic 40K was brilliant. It really layed the ground for BFG and Warmaster I felt. Also I thought it really got the feel of that kind of strategy, pinning and firepower and so on.

I think the feel for "general" strategy was there, yes. But it wasnīt army specific. I didnīt feel the need to use different strategies when I used my Tyranids than when I used my forces of Chaos or my Orks, or...

Sai-Lauren
12-09-2006, 09:12
also he said that there where creative differences with them too, like what happened to the squats he believed we where being cheated out of a experiance for the inclusion of money. its was boiling for a few years since 3 edition. he wanted it more like 2 edition. i remember when he said how much he hated the way that GW treats veteran players with rules which treat people like idiots

Considering when 3rd edition was in development, Andy Chambers was basically the project lead for it (and in fact had the Overfiend designation back then), I find that extremely difficult to believe.

Osbad
12-09-2006, 09:23
I find that extremely difficult to believe

Why? Mr C may have been the guy in charge of the game mechanics, but the suits who make the ultimate decisions are only interested in game mechanics if ultimately it will affect the level of profit earned by the company. Ultimately any "Overfiend" or "Ringbearer" or any Design Studio head honcho by whatever name will have their decisions trumped by the senior management if they think it will have an adverse affect on profitability.

It's such an open secret now that GW "milk" their fans and are quite happy to compromise the integrity of their games if they think they can get a few £ more mini sales out of it. Why do you think JJ has been pushing the "the miniatures are the thing" line so openly in WD? Why has Kirby been so overt that they are a "miniatures" company rather than a "games" company? GW are on the record as saying that they are happy with the games if they are "good enough". They don't *want* the perfect game, they just want a game that is good enough that people are happy to keep buying more and more toy soldiers! They couldn't care less how many old vets leave the game disatisfied with it, as long as there is an endless stream of mindless kiddies walking through the door ready for a good wallet-raping! Once the players mature to a stage where they can actually critique the games then GW no longer view them as customers!

Sai-Lauren
12-09-2006, 10:52
Why? Mr C may have been the guy in charge of the game mechanics, but the suits who make the ultimate decisions are only interested in game mechanics if ultimately it will affect the level of profit earned by the company. Ultimately any "Overfiend" or "Ringbearer" or any Design Studio head honcho by whatever name will have their decisions trumped by the senior management if they think it will have an adverse affect on profitability.

Because back in the day he defended it so vehermently, and there are so many changes over 2nd edition.

Suits would have simply had 2nd edition repackaged with little change. They wouldn't know the mechanics from their elbows, and they wouldn't care, so long as the deadlines got met.

idinos
12-09-2006, 11:06
So, this is what I got from this thread:

Andy Chambers is the Che Guevara of the early 21st century, anyone who doesn't bash GW is a lying, mindless fanboy, and people who still enjoy playing 40k in its current edition are getting bent over and raped whenever they enter a shop, but they happily take it because they are not mature enough to realize what a ****** game it really is, probably because they are mindless fanboys.

On the other hand, those who take an opportunity to bash GW at any given moment are mature individuals whose opinion counts (at least more than the nazi fanboys') as they are trully gods among the insects who continue enjoying 40k. God I love the internet!

PS. What GW really needs is a concept like the pressganger hitler youth that PP cultivates. You know, the ones who fall upon you if you dare critique warmachine in the slightest, but then again, they aren't fanboys, oh no, they are legitimate connoiseurs of the miniature wargaming hobby whose values and opinions are all legitimate, as opposed to the scum that doesn't continuously bash GW.

PPS. And in conclusion, nobody knows why Andy Chambers left GW, so apart from much speculation (and the guy who is his drinking partner, what a joke) we still don't know why he did what he did, but why would this stop anyone from bashing GW and people who enjoy 40k?

lomo
12-09-2006, 11:26
So, this is what I got from this thread:

Andy Chambers is the Che Guevara of the early 21st century, anyone who doesn't bash GW is a lying, mindless fanboy, and people who still enjoy playing 40k in its current edition are getting bent over and raped whenever they enter a shop, but they happily take it because they are not mature enough to realize what a ****** game it really is, probably because they are mindless fanboys.

On the other hand, those who take an opportunity to bash GW at any given moment are mature individuals whose opinion counts (at least more than the nazi fanboys') as they are trully gods among the insects who continue enjoying 40k. God I love the internet!

PS. What GW really needs is a concept like the pressganger hitler youth that PP cultivates. You know, the ones who fall upon you if you dare critique warmachine in the slightest, but then again, they aren't fanboys, oh no, they are legitimate connoiseurs of the miniature wargaming hobby whose values and opinions are all legitimate, as opposed to the scum that doesn't continuously bash GW.

PPS. And in conclusion, nobody knows why Andy Chambers left GW, so apart from much speculation (and the guy who is his drinking partner, what a joke) we still don't know why he did what he did, but why would this stop anyone from bashing GW and people who enjoy 40k?

All I asked was why he left, now go have an eskimo pie.

Mr Tiddles
12-09-2006, 11:47
This is my new favourite post ever.


So, this is what I got from this thread:

Andy Chambers is the Che Guevara of the early 21st century, anyone who doesn't bash GW is a lying, mindless fanboy, and people who still enjoy playing 40k in its current edition are getting bent over and raped whenever they enter a shop, but they happily take it because they are not mature enough to realize what a ****** game it really is, probably because they are mindless fanboys.

On the other hand, those who take an opportunity to bash GW at any given moment are mature individuals whose opinion counts (at least more than the nazi fanboys') as they are trully gods among the insects who continue enjoying 40k. God I love the internet!

PS. What GW really needs is a concept like the pressganger hitler youth that PP cultivates. You know, the ones who fall upon you if you dare critique warmachine in the slightest, but then again, they aren't fanboys, oh no, they are legitimate connoiseurs of the miniature wargaming hobby whose values and opinions are all legitimate, as opposed to the scum that doesn't continuously bash GW.

PPS. And in conclusion, nobody knows why Andy Chambers left GW, so apart from much speculation (and the guy who is his drinking partner, what a joke) we still don't know why he did what he did, but why would this stop anyone from bashing GW and people who enjoy 40k?

Sleazy
12-09-2006, 11:57
jeez, calm down people.

no body wanted to know so badly why I left!

To be honest I've heard most of those theories, the truth is probably a little of each and a whole load of something else.

Chiron
12-09-2006, 12:56
jeez, calm down people.

no body wanted to know so badly why I left!

who are you then? (i am genuinely interested btw instead of trying to be clever)

hereticdave
12-09-2006, 14:03
yeah i'd be interested too.

Bronka
12-09-2006, 14:19
He was Games Workshop's deputy accountant.

lomo
12-09-2006, 14:28
He was Games Workshop's deputy accountant.

And he sounded like he was someone important. LOL

Lexington
12-09-2006, 15:05
PS. What GW really needs is a concept like the pressganger hitler youth that PP cultivates. You know, the ones who fall upon you if you dare critique warmachine in the slightest, but then again, they aren't fanboys, oh no, they are legitimate connoiseurs of the miniature wargaming hobby whose values and opinions are all legitimate, as opposed to the scum that doesn't continuously bash GW.
This is now going to get passed around the Press Ganger ranks. So far, they think it's a riot!

hereticdave
12-09-2006, 15:05
too funny :)

Zephro
12-09-2006, 15:24
I think the feel for "general" strategy was there, yes. But it wasnīt army specific. I didnīt feel the need to use different strategies when I used my Tyranids than when I used my forces of Chaos or my Orks, or...

Hmmmm I suppose, but we always managed to make Orks swarm people and Space Marines hit in small elite detachments. Epic Armageddon is an improvement, but Epic 40K was definatly better in terms of grand strategy than Epic Space Marine.

I totally agree about the plastic sprues. Who ever said they trippled is being conservative. You used to get a nid swarm box with 5 sprues for 8 pounds, which was replaced by 1 of the exact same sprues for a fiver. Which has no doubt gone up since. Real pity because I find the rules so much more satisfying than 40K.

Oh well I have Warmaster, BFG and Blitzkrieg Commander.

Senbei
12-09-2006, 15:42
This is now going to get passed around the Press Ganger ranks. So far, they think it's a riot!

See if you can get them little tin PP logo pins for their shirt collars )_)

lomo
12-09-2006, 16:12
thanks, but too much off topic now.