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Septicus
11-09-2006, 23:24
So I was just reading throught the Beasts book the other day and I noticed that it says that they must rank up at least 4 models wide even if they normally wouldn't. So then what exactly is the problem with the new rules. I thought that 5 was "at least 4". Well I think I may be missing something but it seems to me that the Beastmen would still retain their rank bonus if they were to deploy 5 wide, and since 5 is more than 4 I fail to see how it is a problem for this army although there was specific mention in White Dwarf stating that this army is one of two who have a rule that suffers or is rendered obsolete under the new rules.
Anyone who can help me understand this will have my gratitude.

lorelorn
12-09-2006, 00:59
I don't know which part of the book you were reading, but on page 18 under the rules for Raiders, it clearly states:

"when charging or charged, if the unit would normally form up less than four models wide, then it forms up four models wide (space permitting)."

There's no 'at least' involved.

MarcoPollo
12-09-2006, 01:31
We'll I think that this needs to be clarified in an errata. For me, and I use alot of beast herds, you get the odd rules lawyer who will try to charge your beast unit with a lone uber-character and say that because they are skirmishers, they don't get rank bonus because the don't have 4 wide ranks. That is why the little note about atleast 4 wide is in there.

The beasts herds are meant to be uber-skirmishers. They get their rank bonus up to two, that is what the spirit of the game desires (I think .. and so do many others). Now with this 5 wide rank system that 7th ed is putting forward, you could still have a lone character charge a beastherd and (according to the rules as they are written) have them only line up 4 wide. Thus you would not get your rank bonus.

I think that this detail has been overlooked by GW. You should just rank up 5 wide now instead of just 4 wide.

I depends on how you wish to handle this. If powergaming is more your style, then argue away. If not, then go "at least 5 wide".

IcedCrow
12-09-2006, 01:49
Sweet sweet powergaming. *sigh*

I go for the latter. Just rank up.

Shimmergloom
12-09-2006, 02:06
Uber characters charging herds is not cost effective for the enemy vs the herds.

Herds have enough advantages. They can ambush and get behind your lines easier now with more devestating results.

And you can just screen your herds with 30pt hounds to counterbalance any chariot charging.

But if a tooled up character charges a 80-100pt herd, then it's a victory for you.

Anyway, you rank up 4 wide, not 5 wide when charged by lone characters and chariots. Just laugh when he's wasting points chasing herds around and not attacking your minotaurs, chariots and bestigors.

DarkTerror
12-09-2006, 02:13
I depends on how you wish to handle this. If powergaming is more your style, then argue away. If not, then go "at least 5 wide".

That is NOT powergaming. It's the rules, and it's the rules by GW's intentions. No twisting and turning, no easter eggs. NO argument needed.

If GW meant something else then they'll issue an errata or the like. From what I've heard, they know it's different, and they're fine with it.

Darkvoid_bluff
12-09-2006, 02:56
Well in the latest australian WD beastherds are specifically mentioned in regard to the minum width, though still not clear. It'll probably be covered in a FAQ soon.
Changing it to five wide minimum in the meantime sounds fair to me.

IcedCrow
12-09-2006, 03:16
The problem is no one here can call what "GW's intent is". There have been so many times when someone on a forum has claimed somethign to GW's "obvious intent" only to have them silenced with an FAQ that showed otherwise.

The answer for now should be whatever is the most fair, not what we psychically deem to be the designer's intent. Unless you have a direct line to Gav or Allessio, you would just be speculating.

Ironhand
12-09-2006, 03:39
5 wide seems fair, and seems to fit the intent of the rule. Beastmen need all the help they can get anyway.

druchii
12-09-2006, 03:40
I thought this had been cleared up in the most recent WD9US 320) where alessio speaks about the various units/rules effected by the new rules.

He specifically calls out beastherds and the chalice of malefluer.

Yes, the chalice still doubles the dice generated by the mage, but no one else can use them, and beastherds STILL rank up 4wide when not allowed to rank up moreso.

How often will that happen? Not much.
Not only,but beastherds are still "uber" skirmishers.

Beastherds get to join the Bretonnian Questing Knight in nerfdom. Welcome to my castle.
d

DarkTerror
12-09-2006, 03:55
The problem is no one here can call what "GW's intent is". There have been so many times when someone on a forum has claimed somethign to GW's "obvious intent" only to have them silenced with an FAQ that showed otherwise.

The answer for now should be whatever is the most fair, not what we psychically deem to be the designer's intent. Unless you have a direct line to Gav or Allessio, you would just be speculating.

Well, for sure I have heard that Gav ad Allessio know about it. If they know about it, but have no interest in changing it, then it is their intention. If they do errata/change it, great. If they don't, ok, it's the way it was meant to be.

Should things change, then we should all adapt. For now, things are as intended (intended meaning that the rules are not changed yet, if meant to be at all, the timing of which would be intentional).

dodicula
12-09-2006, 07:07
whats the big deal? against units they still rank up 5+?, frankly I'm more worried about the no double movement while skirmishing

Wargamejunkie
12-09-2006, 07:19
In the US article that talked about the new rule changes, they specifically stated that the Beastherds wouldnt get a rank bonus to counteract the fact that they can ambush. Which doesnt sound like much but in the new rules all you have to do is park a herd behind a unit and if they flee you get an auto kill.

Sherlocko
12-09-2006, 07:30
I think the worse part of this is that our ambushy beast herds will have a real hard time fightning knights and elite infantry when coming in the flank because they just won´t get enough static combat resolution..

Voltaire
12-09-2006, 08:08
This was done with the intention of balance in mind. Under the new rules for fleeing through units, Beastherds have it a lot easier as their units now have the ability to auto-kill in a single turn through the use of Ambush. Thats a good compromise I think, making Beastmen a much more viable 'pure' list once again.

In regards to their actual lack of rank bonus. Let them lose it. I didn't think it was fluffy in the first place. When did a beastherd whose main objective in life consists of "I hear the voice, we hear the voices, lets all follow the voices" become disciplined. I don't think the voices were really telling them to rank up. Not unless there is a new Chaos god - Disciplinator - Could you imagine it? "Maim, burn kill, but make sure you're in your place." Really, I couldn't think of a more british Chaos God.

GodHead
12-09-2006, 08:35
They stated that the rules negatively effected them and that the rules would not be changing. Get used to it.

It will be a rare occurrence for your beasts to rank up 4 wide, and an even rarer occurrence for your enemy to take advantage of that.

zak
12-09-2006, 09:33
How can beastherds ranking up be non-fluffy. You could say the same about frenzied troops. Are they really going to stand around foaming at the mouth in the second rank waiting their turn?

I don't think the herds have been 'nerfed' as someone else put. They have had something taken away, but have gained with the new auto-kill rule for fleeing troops. I will certainly be taking far more smaller herds to take advantage of this. :)

eldrak
12-09-2006, 09:34
This was not done to nerf herds because ambush is more powerful in this addition.
It's a resault of their RAW policy and that they don't want to include army specific special rules in the core rulebook.

And yes, a tooled character will beat them now and chariots will too.

deadkez
12-09-2006, 21:07
Oh yes to chariots!!! Im currently building another one, just for this purpose, I hate beastherds.

I look into my crystal ball, i see:
Something with Terror (shaggoth, exalted daemon) scares the bejesus out my poor gobbos, who flee and panic lots of other units too.
They all run... straight into that ambushing beastherd and its unusually wide formation and their big blades! 2, perhaps 3 units auto-dead.

Then I see a chariot, glittering in gold (well, dung), charging in and oblitering the whole unit, despite its strength of numbers.

All looks fair to me!