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SON OF LION
12-09-2006, 09:02
I just managed to get the new battle of skull pass boxed set and I really like the look of the new night goblins. I like them enought to maybe even build a new Orc and Goblin force (combining with the Orc bits off the 6th ed box). However, I'm getting tired of painting black and I'm thinking about a new colour scheme that may be pretty controversial.

I was thinking of doing them white (probably an off-white such as bone) and combining this colour scheme with the night gobbos may get me in trouble. Now firstly, I'm not trying to shock or antagonise people and I certainly don't support the KKK (I'm Asian, not white), but will this colour scheme offend you? Keep in mind that the army will more than likely use more units than just night gobbos and they will all be painted white.

I'm just putting some feelers out to gauge reactions.

WarbossKurgan
12-09-2006, 09:12
Check out the Night Goblins vs High Elves BatRep in UK WD276. They are off-white and they look awesome! They are by Dan Tunbridge btw, I googled his name and only found one picture of his Gobbos - and they are Common not Night. :(

http://www.tanelornwgc.org/albums/album24/aaa.jpg

zak
12-09-2006, 09:15
I think they would look good. A pic of one would assist.

Jedi152
12-09-2006, 09:27
I can't see how many people would be offended, unless they were carrying burning crosses or something.

SON OF LION
12-09-2006, 09:41
No, no burning crosses or other such paraphernalia.

I just want to make absolutely certain that I step on no one's toes. The fact that I'm not white may help me there.

I remembered reading about the swastika and that it is the same symbol that is used by buddists, but if you try to wear a t-shirt with that symbol on it, people are more likely to think you're a neo-nazi rather than anything else.

Luke
12-09-2006, 10:27
What do you care what other people think? I sure as hell dont. And it doesnt bother me one bit. Why should it? THese are little green goblins wearing dirty white "habits", not inbred white men in white robes. Plus they tend to have all the iconography as well. I would draw the line at you adding KKK insignia and burning crosses but that is not your intention so I say do it.

Gekiganger
12-09-2006, 10:43
I remembered reading about the swastika and that it is the same symbol that is used by buddists, but if you try to wear a t-shirt with that symbol on it, people are more likely to think you're a neo-nazi rather than anything else.

If I recall correctly it's the buddist symbol reversed.

Anyway, the white scheme has been done before as other people have said, looked good.

grimgorkgalle
12-09-2006, 10:44
Paint em pink if ya want to. Who cares about offending the others with a new colour scheme, its your army in the end. So do not bother to do with what you want. If anybody paints and builds his army like GW designers, the hobby would be boring...

The boyz
12-09-2006, 10:52
I say go for it SON OF LION, who cares what other people think. Having white Night Goblins will certainly be different. I have seen NG's painted in dark blues and purples before, but not white.

snurl
12-09-2006, 10:58
I wouldn't care if you did model them with Klan insignia and such.
It's just a wargame army, not a political statement.
someone who would be offended by your army is probably reading way too much into it. Some folks absolutely hate anything to do with the K. and want to use their history erasers to obliterate it's ever existing. But it did.

They are your miniatures, paint them any way you please, but you may get tired of having this discussion after a bit.

devolutionary
12-09-2006, 11:09
If I recall correctly it's the buddist symbol reversed.

Nope. For the Nazi's, it's a derivative of an old germanic rune. As a simple geometric shape, it's relevance to a hindi symbol is coincidental. Indeed, the simple hooked cross appears in many cultures, all with positive conotations. The implications of strength and power, however, are of germanic origin, which in turn is probably tied in to luck = surviving a fight = strength. The symbol, in and of itself, is historically innocent.

Anyway, SoL, go with white! That'd look sweet :D

WarbossKurgan
12-09-2006, 11:18
@Everone who said "who cares what other people think" :mad: It's called social responsibility. You can't think that you exist in a bubble and that nothing you do has consequences!

@SON OF LION - I say you've don the right thing in being careful about this, but you are on safe ground. Just don't Greenstuff their hoods into full-face masks!

snurl
12-09-2006, 11:43
[QUOTE=WarbossKurgan;937713]@Everone who said "who cares what other people think" :mad: It's called social responsibility. You can't think that you exist in a bubble and that nothing you do has consequences!QUOTE]

Sorry, but I just can't see a miniature wargame army making much of a negative social impact.

Look at your own avatar. Pirates were murderers and thieves, they just happen to be popular. Why is one group of murderers more acceptable?

Milgram
12-09-2006, 12:06
well... kurgans avatar is a derivate of the pirate sign for orkish banners. but still - it is the same as using the hooked cross on a pre medieval germanic army.

even when he gives his goblins full face masks and put a burning cross or a hanging negroid (correct term) as a standard - hey, he plays orks! they are supposed to be the bad guys. there are other tabletop wargames theming the second world war. should everyone there use the allies because the other armies are the bad ones?

look at it in a wrestling perspective. do you think sid vicious or yokozuna were really bad guys? no, they were just playing the bad guys. (and while I destroy here some peoples world: there is no rabbit bringing eastereggs - this were your parents!) it is the same with tabletops: only because I'm playing orcs, I don't go to a school with a big axe and cut the teachers in two peaces and eat the little children. I used to play chaos and I did not pray to some chaos gods before I went to bed.

on tournaments when I don't know more than 2-3 people I make myself a joke out of it and play 'the role' of my army. the arrogant eldar player, the impressive space marine, the manipulative tzeentcher, the aggressive orc player. and no, I'm not there with some stupid sword that I wield around in front of the opponents face. it's just fine details that makes me to the bad boy. of course this is especially funny if I get to the first ranks and everyone loves it if I get beaten in the last round, ending on place two. most of them realise at some point that I play a role as they realise it in wrestling games. I still get the fairness points most of the time, depending on the system. ;)

oh... for the next tournament I'll shave my head, probably a suit (without tie). this could have a good effect to bring up the public meaning against me, but it doesn't excactly fit in comparison to my orcs. probably hanging out my true face? the cuddly bear that likes to win but doesn't like other people to be crushed?

(yes, sometimes you need a hard skin to be the bad guy.)

Sentinel75
12-09-2006, 13:08
Smurfs wore Klan outfits, even papa smurf was in red like a Klan Grand Dragon or Grand Wizard

grimlog
12-09-2006, 13:31
i dont realy like the KKK but i like there fation sence :) white is a realy good color if used properly i profer black by all means but it is more of a way of useing it than the point of it :)

so my opinion is to go for it there is no one stupid enough to bring the m in to the kkk section unless they are sad or hold a big hate for them

Lumpsack
12-09-2006, 13:39
I shoudn't worry about it - if GW put out these guys then you're on very safe ground indeed!

http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/newimage.asp?Size=A&Img=258505

Thorin Thoreksson
12-09-2006, 13:52
I think it would look nice with a whole army painted in a white colour scheme. It is usually very inspiring and refreshing to see an army painted in a new and not "normal" style.

Here is an example of a Night Gobbo in a white robe painted by Chrono over on TWF:
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h289/kronork/WH/gobbo1.jpg

If you could do a whole O&G army with a white colour scheme similar to this, your army would look quite good IMO.

And as long as you don't model hooded cloaks and "burning cross"-banners on every unit, but rather keep it in a warhammer O&G style, I would not worry too much about people being offended by your army.

tenpole
12-09-2006, 14:21
Hey that looks alright. Ignore my no vote. I should not be such a purist.

Mephistofeles
12-09-2006, 14:58
Just go for it, white cloaks are damn cool, and I personaly wouldn't give a rats ass (not even a skavens ass) for the KKK. The best way to treat them is to not give them too much attention.

So: White Cloaks are cool. Go for it.


Ps: The Buddist-Swastika is reversed, with the ends pointing in the opposite direction, but not many people notice a difference. And when we are on the subject, the Skaven-clan Eshins (I think it was, can't remember which clan) symbol is a nazi-symbol, and nobody complains about that, even though some of the actual models moulded by GW has the symbol on them :P

lord_blackfang
12-09-2006, 15:01
Wow, the guy Thorin posted looks very nice. Go for it!

WarbossKurgan
12-09-2006, 15:59
@Everone who said "who cares what other people think" :mad: It's called social responsibility. You can't think that you exist in a bubble and that nothing you do has consequences!
Sorry, but I just can't see a miniature wargame army making much of a negative social impact.

Look at your own avatar. Pirates were murderers and thieves, they just happen to be popular. Why is one group of murderers more acceptable?
Hmmm - pretty good point about Pirates! :(

But to be fair I think images of the KKK would upset people a whole lot more than a skull and crossbones - the disneyfied pirate image is okay for kiddies birthday parties: You can't say the same for the KKK!

I still think SON OF LION did the right thing to ask, I still think he's okay to do white NGs. And I'll still get annoyed when I read "who cares what other people think" :p

Jedi152
12-09-2006, 16:02
Odd that we haven't heard from any of the 12 people who said they would be offended by gobbos in white.

inq.serge
12-09-2006, 16:44
Unfluffy as hell, but it's ok, actually, I agree with grimgorkgalle, make 'em pink, even though it is more offending.

Cacodemon
12-09-2006, 16:50
Well, if you're going to paint the clothes white, then it would be almost criminal for them to not have blue skin also.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9c/Smurf1.gif

IsawaShori
12-09-2006, 17:47
Hmmm - pretty good point about Pirates! :(

But to be fair I think images of the KKK would upset people a whole lot more than a skull and crossbones - the disneyfied pirate image is okay for kiddies birthday parties: You can't say the same for the KKK!
...

Pirates were indiscriminate of who they killed, and even though they did kill, loot, and plunder it was not targeted at specific racial or ethnic groups. You are also absolutely correct about pirates being romanticized in the media to distribute more toys to kids, hell I bought my nephew a Jack Sparrow doll. The same can not be said about the KKK.

Social responsibility and morality, wow what a Pandoraís box this thread has opened, and to add my two cents I do believe we have a responsibility in our entertainment to not advocate and condone pointless hatred, ignorance, and violence. I think that is the major difference about emulating the terrifying image of the KKK versus the historical images we use to portray our pirates, orcs, and chaos armies. It may be a fine line, but I see a difference in vicarious fantasy violence gaming and the imitation of real life violence being celebrated in games. I do not intend to be on a soapbox and certainly not to offend anybody.

As for SON OF LIONís original inquiry, I did not read his question as a social awareness thing about night gobos looking like klan members, but more about a bad sense of fashion going against traditional night gobbo color schemes. I say be the trendsetter and new fashion icon for the night gobbo metropolis and paint the gitz in white.

fmatgnat
12-09-2006, 19:03
I think some of the "dont paint them white" votes may just be confused. If you just read the poll title, but not the post, then it might sound like you wanted to paint the gobbo's skin white, which would be weird. Although... it would almost make sense for goblins to live in caves to have an albino-ish complexion ;)

Splagbot
12-09-2006, 19:19
Dude, their your models, do what you want and mock those easily offended when they complain.

Stouty
12-09-2006, 19:22
Okay heres my tuppence.

A sort of dirtied white would not only look good but make sense, cloth would be a pale colour no? And I really can't imagine gobbos going to all that effort to make black clothing (though really various browns would be best).

As to the whole sensitivity thing it really wouldn't bother me at all, though it shows good character on your part to check. Really though I wouldn't bother asking us mere forum goers, ask the people who you play with (we could all be Nazis for all you know).

Wings of Doom
12-09-2006, 19:52
You're reading way too much into it. Romans and Greeks wore white togas and the pope wears a white robe; just because its long and white doesn't make it KKK. I mean, the mask is almost exactly the same as a spanish religious watchamagijjet- that doesn't make the spanish religious watchamagijjets cross burning iognorant bloodthirsty racist yokels. If someone says 'Wow, your goblins look like the KKK', just say that they don't represent them, and that it was extremely bad taste to point it out.

A game that teaches kids that hacking your enemy up with a daemon-possessed axe is good is not exactly 'socially responisble' :rolleyes:
But its just a game.

The guy who's white-robed night goblins were in white dwarf were totally awesome- as long as you make it proper, dirty, looks-like-its-had-a-goblin-in-it-for-a-while white it'll look good. Even if it goes against fluff.

(P.S.- Pirates FTW!)

Gekiganger
12-09-2006, 19:56
You're reading way too much into it. Romans and Greeks wore white togas and the pope wears a white robe; just because its long and white doesn't make it KKK.

The pinty 'ats go a long way though. I remember friends saying my skaven plague censer bearer and bell ringer looked like the KKK.

Fredmans
12-09-2006, 20:18
At first, I thought you meant albinoes :D

That would be REAL cave gobbos.

I don't mind people escaping the White Dwarf mind frame at all (I do it all the time), but technically, I think white is the wrong colour to go. It is THE most difficult colour to use.

/Fredmans

Garazdraki
12-09-2006, 20:32
At a German White Dwarf it is written, that Goblins are having a light green colour scheme. And if they get stronger they will get a darker green.
And that is the reason why Black Orcs are called "Black".

It was a topic for painting Orcs and Goblins.
And I think it was a good idea for a theme army.

Gekiganger
12-09-2006, 20:56
I thought the reason black orcs were called black because of their darker skin tone :rolleyes: . The dark skin was only a result of god knows what that the chaos dwarves did to them, the fact they were stronger was also a result of what the chaos dwarves did. Neither is linked to the other.

Steel_Legion
12-09-2006, 23:00
i say go for it, its a nice idea

TKitch
13-09-2006, 02:28
KKK Gobbos?

*Steals the idea*

Sorry, but it's awesome. *Grins* i've got my skull pass gobbos sittin there ready to paint, too! *grins*

SON OF LION
13-09-2006, 02:43
I was actually planning on painting the gobbos white like Chrono (see Thorin's post) but I probably can't get it to that standard.

For the white, I'm going to use a fortress grey/skull white sort of colour to show that it won't be clean.

I would actually like to hear from some of the people that said they would be offended. I've heard many arguments about why I should (which mirrors some of my own thoughts on the issue) but I'd like to hear why not. As of this post, the offended are about 20% to the unoffended 80% so this is a significant number.

Cap'n Umgrotz
13-09-2006, 03:00
If the KKK should be compared to anything, I think moronic, cowardly and smelly goblins are a good place to start.
But since that's not your intention, there is no reason for offense.
Hell, even if it was your intention, there'd be no reason for offense.
I'm Irish and I've never heard of anyone I know being actually offended by say, the potrayal of the IRA in american movies.

corvo
13-09-2006, 03:03
I wouldn't be offended by it. My only concern would be from a 'fluff' point of view. Just how would a goblin that, essentially, lives in a hole keep it's clothes clean? Please, just don't make it look like they have just stepped off the set of a laundry liquid commercial.

SON OF LION
13-09-2006, 03:07
Don't worry too much about that. It won't be "cold power" white. More like "seedy hotel" white.

Lord Lucifer
13-09-2006, 04:36
White's a bitch of a colour to paint, so regardless of taste, you are crazy :p

SON OF LION
17-09-2006, 09:54
Right, I've decided to do an off-white partly because of the results and mostly because it is easier to paint.

As soon as Lord Lucifer can post up the pics, you can see the results for yourself (He has a camera and I don't).

HiredSword.
17-09-2006, 12:15
i think that white is the second best colour to do night goblin robes. There was a WD with a small elf band versus a horde of white cloaked goblins. They were the best goblin horde i've seen, painted to an excellent standard. The way he got around them looking anything like kkk is having them a 'hotel' white as you said with check pattern on bits. Love to see some photos when you're done.

p.s. i honestly can't see the problem with a white colour scheme, goblins just look good in black or white. People shouldn't discriminate because of the models colour :)

Alfginnar Oakenshield
17-09-2006, 12:57
That gobbo by Chrono is very cool... Perhaps I wont sell the goblins in my set after all.

AO

chivalrous
18-09-2006, 00:12
I've see people paint their Orcs and goblins with fluorescent pink skin, that's bad taste.
Night Goblins in off white robes? I like that, you might want to add a darker colour around the trim of the robes though.

bloodwraith
18-09-2006, 04:32
there is a good reason for the night goblins to have black robes, they live in blackness and there are things in the darkness that would eat them, the black would be camoflague. Although you have to wonder where the goblins get the yards and yards of black material? Did they rob a gothic witchery? Come to that, who makes their little robes? Goblin seamstresses?

If i could paint white i would totally do an army of smurf'esque night gobbos, the characters and sorcerers would wear red robes. As i can't paint white to save my life i need to find something else. Maybe burlap brown or something.

Saxon
18-09-2006, 04:45
Wouldn't bother me in the slightest actually, in fact is you hadn't mentioned the KKK conitiation it would have never occured to me.
would look good IMHO

ebolatheripe
18-09-2006, 06:01
It was a good idea to ask, but KKK won't even come to mind for most people, if you stay away from other Klan iconography. Your more likely to have friends tease you about it reminding them about the Klan, knowing that was not your intention. In fact, if your not ready for your friends to call your army the "Klan" you may not want to make that army:p .

Lordsaradain
18-09-2006, 10:28
Check out these cool white cloaked gobbos:
http://www.the-waaagh.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=17871

Lord Lucifer
18-09-2006, 11:09
Sorry for the lateness, SoL, reason being I ran into the business-end of a WFB All-Nighter after you left, finished the game up and packed away the terrain at about 4:30am
Not even remotely functional until today :p



My only critique is that the skin seems too bright, when placed next to a mostly white(ish) colour scheme, that green seems a touch too vibrant. Don't know why
Personally I'd try to dull the tone a bit. Either going Catachan Green, mixing in some Dark Angels, or maybe adding a touch of black and some brown seems to take the edge off it quite nicely.

Kedlav
18-09-2006, 12:32
I like the greyish look myself. It looks decent, though you're right, the skin is a bit off.

Dspankdo
19-09-2006, 04:46
there is a good reason for the night goblins to have black robes, they live in blackness and there are things in the darkness that would eat them, the black would be camoflague. Although you have to wonder where the goblins get the yards and yards of black material? Did they rob a gothic witchery? Come to that, who makes their little robes? Goblin seamstresses?



Its not because they need camoflage as they don't wear the robes underground, its to protect there light sensitive skin while above ground, and anyway they have bright yellow trim on there robes, hows that camoflage:p

Latro_
19-09-2006, 08:29
i cant get that ramones song out of my head now


the kkk took my babyt aaaway lalalala

curses

shen-yong
19-09-2006, 12:27
IYAM, green things in off-white robes remind me much more DA veterans than KKK. :D

But considering your nick, it might be even intentional. ;)