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View Full Version : I have a problem - Designer's mistake in Battle for Skullpass



DoomedDiceThrower
12-09-2006, 12:32
Hi everyone.

I'll try to explain the problem in detail.

I finally converted from 40k to Fantasy. I have loads of fun with the skullpass-box so far.

There are several missions, introducing beginners like me to:
-movement
-shooting
-close combat (also multiple combats)

Let me say at this point that the BFSP only has the "children"-version of the original rules. For example, there are no armour modifications yet. And they don't mention points costs (they are not needed in the introducing missions anyway).

The box gives you any information you need to play with the two armies that are inside it.

Take a look at the information they give about troops:
http://warhammer.uk.games-workshop.com/gaming/dwarf_profiles/default.htm
Goblins are also covered this way.

There are also some characters and special units in the box:
- Dwarven Thain
- Slayer
- Gargboss
- Nightgoblin Shaman
- Troll
- Dwarven Cannon (with crew)

Their stats and their equipment is also given (only in the BFSP-book, not on the website). For each character, the BFSP-book lists a number of additional rules that I need to read in the real rulebook, if I want to include the characters in the game.

For example the dwarven Thain's list of additional rules that apply to him:
Handweapon + shield, pg. xx + xy
Characters, pg. xx + xy

and so on.

Here comes the problem:

The characters don't have their armour saves listed.
I'm very convinced that this is not in the spirit of the box. Very confusing for beginners like me, and certainly even more for beginners with no tabletop experience at all.
The characters just can't be used properly. How shall I apply a shield to a dwarven Thain, when I don't know what his usual save is? +1 to what? And he's definitely not naked under that shield!
What would the BFSP-Thain's save be?
Or the save of the Nightgoblin Gargboss?
Or the dwarven Cannon crew?

I'll disagree with anyone who says that Games Workshop wants the beginners to buy the specific armybooks to find out.
I mean they even give the rough stats of "The Gaze of Mork" in the "how-to-use-magic" mission, which you'll find on the BFSP website.

It just breaks with the courteousness of the box, that gives beginners all the basic rules they need to play with the models that are inside the box.

Of course, I can also play with the characters this way, but a heavily armoured modeled thain with sv 6+ is very unsatisfying and just feels wrong.
To forget this small but important detail is imho a faux pas, that shouldn't happen in a beginner's box.

I want you to come up with all the understanding that you have, when I ask you for the worst average saves of following models (worst because the models in BFSP are usually as basic equipped as can be):
- Dwarven Thain
-Nightgoblin Gargboss
-Dwarven Cannon crew

I was told that the Troll doesn't have a save beside his regeneration (at least the regeneration was mentioned).
Also I was told that the shaman and the Slayer (usually) also come 'naked' (the slayer is actually naked, thank God for that beard!).

Help and understanding would be highly appreciated!

Best regards,
DoomedDiceThrower

Avian
12-09-2006, 12:42
Dwarf characters tend to come with Gromril armour (4+ save), while their war machine crew have light armour (6+ save). The NG Big Boss probably has light armour as well (either that or no armour).

Night Goblin shamans cannot have any armour and if it's a normal Troll it will just have its 4+ Regen. save

eldrak
12-09-2006, 12:51
Weird, must be an oversight on their part.

Thane: heavy or gromril armour, I would give him heavy so he should get a 3+ save in CC (same as the warriors), a 2+ might be a bit to much for the gobbos as they don't have many high strength attacks. (normally all dwarf characters has gromril but it's not in the basic rulebook)
Cannon crew: light armour 6+
Big boss: light or no armour, I guess he has light for 6+ save.

Astromarine
12-09-2006, 12:58
don't have the book here with me, but I'm pretty sure that 7th edition dwarf thanes have gromril by default, and don't have the option to downgrade

[edit] sorry, didn't see you say that they have grom normally. You're right, it's a bit hard for gobbos, but maybe the idea is to teach the players to go after him with the troll?

DoomedDiceThrower
12-09-2006, 13:53
Thank you very much, you all already helped me out.

To say it simple, I agree with everything eldrik says. 2+ seems a little bit too tough for me, though I might point out that I have the strong impression that the dwarfs have a hard time winning against the gobbos, without trying out characters and the cannon.

I just noticed another thing:
In the character introduction on the website they say that the great weapon of the Gargboss adds +2 to his strength. Then they say this is already included in his profile. In the BFSP-book he has strength 4 in his profile.
Confusion!
Is strength 4 average for Nightgoblin gargbosses? I guess so, for if it was the modified strength this would mean he has strength 2, which sounds like nonsense since even the shaman has Strength 3.

And the two weapons, which give the slayer 4 attacks, are also not included in the Slayers stats, as stated.

Boy, from a beginners perspective, this really needs improvement. I don't understand anyway why they couldn't include the Bonus missions from the website in the Box.

On second thought, the crazy amount of cool models for only 50€ vindicates the box easily. :cool:

truthsayer
12-09-2006, 14:04
Weird, must be an oversight on their part.

Thane: heavy or gromril armour, I would give him heavy so he should get a 3+ save in CC (same as the warriors), a 2+ might be a bit to much for the gobbos as they don't have many high strength attacks. (normally all dwarf characters has gromril but it's not in the basic rulebook)
Cannon crew: light armour 6+
Big boss: light or no armour, I guess he has light for 6+ save.

A 2+ armour save on the thane would be right, GW have designed the game to allow the two generals (night gobbo big boss and thane) to slug it out in combat for a short while to build up a bit of epic excitement, that is why the gobbo has a great weapon to cut through the 2+ of the thane and has toughness 5 to last a while longer.

Nadir
12-09-2006, 14:11
The Goblin has S6 with the GW.

ps. This was ridiculus, for Sigmars sake GW if you need a proof-reader just ask! IŽll happily do it for you for a little refund, and WE ALL KNOW you need it. Badly! (thinking back on the WE book, sigh)

tenpole
12-09-2006, 14:17
Glad to see GW standards shining through. I have never known them to use a proof reader as so many of the publications are full of typos, glitches and errors. The standard needs improving for a large company such as GW.

truthsayer
12-09-2006, 14:20
They probably do get a proofreader but they obviously dont play warhammer and so dont understand what they are reading anyway, Thats why so much crud gets through.

DoomedDiceThrower
12-09-2006, 14:35
A 2+ armour save on the thane would be right, GW have designed the game to allow the two generals (night gobbo big boss and thane) to slug it out in combat for a short while to build up a bit of epic excitement, that is why the gobbo has a great weapon to cut through the 2+ of the thane and has toughness 5 to last a while longer.

Uhm... sorry, thinking about it I'm a little confused again.
2+?
As I get it Gromril armour alone gives 4+. Which is already better than heavy armour.
With the shield that means 3+ in CC, right?
So 2+ is probably a mistake? Made by us?

3+ sounds more likely anyway. The great weapon can't cut through the 2+, because armour modification (I hope I translated this rule term right) is not included in the BFSP rules.

Duckass
12-09-2006, 14:52
Gromril armour gives 4+
Shield 3+
Parry 2+

You get to use the parry rule if engaged to the front and using a single hand weapon and a shield. You lose this boni if you take a magic weapon or other weapons.

truthsayer
12-09-2006, 15:15
Uhm... sorry, thinking about it I'm a little confused again.
2+?
As I get it Gromril armour alone gives 4+. Which is already better than heavy armour.
With the shield that means 3+ in CC, right?
So 2+ is probably a mistake? Made by us?

3+ sounds more likely anyway. The great weapon can't cut through the 2+, because armour modification (I hope I translated this rule term right) is not included in the BFSP rules.

I suppose im kinda mixing in advanced rules for the starter set aint I, My bad!

Without using the parry bonus he would have a 3+ armour save, and the great weapon wouldnt modify the armour save.

Think of the great weapon as having Strength 6 AP 5 for the purposes of the starter game ;) therefore giving the dwarf his full 3+ save

Modify when you feel comfortable with it, I got confused quite a bit when i made the jump to 40k from fantasy.

ZomboCom
12-09-2006, 15:27
Basically, you're better off ignoring the scenarios and rules given.

You'll be much better off learning the proper rules from the rule book and playing some games that way.

The starter scenario rules are just wrong, full of errors and simply teach you the wrong rules.

Learn the real rules instead, you'll be much better off.

DoomedDiceThrower
12-09-2006, 15:49
Basically, you're better off ignoring the scenarios and rules given.

You'll be much better off learning the proper rules from the rule book and playing some games that way.

The starter scenario rules are just wrong, full of errors and simply teach you the wrong rules.

Learn the real rules instead, you'll be much better off.

Thanks for the tip, I already noticed that much.

Aaaaaaa, parry! Now I understand the shield special rule!