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Fredmans
12-09-2006, 15:52
After having read the rules for 7th ed, I cannot find a solution to the clipping problem of 6th edition, where clipping is legal but unsportsmanlike. Is it forbidden or allowed? The rules are less than clear to me.

p. 21

"When a unit charges an enemy, the player must endeaour to bring the maximum number of models from both sides into combat."

Endeavour?

same page, next column...

"It can, and indeed must, wheel in order to maximise the number of models able to fight."

Must?

Are the rules to be read as:
fit the number of model that reaches the target (and in some cases allow clipping)
or as:
it's a failed charge if you cannot reach the unit with enough models?

/Confused, not confucian

T10
12-09-2006, 16:10
I don't see how this can be confusing. The first tells you that you are required to make every effort to get as models into base contact with each other as possible. The second tells you the same thing, but deals especially with wheeling.

At best, models should only be left out of the fight if the opposing unit is too narrow to contact all enemy models, e.g. an 8-wide unit of Orcs fighting a 5-wide unit of Orcs should only leave one model out of contact with an enemy.

-T10

Festus
12-09-2006, 16:15
Hi

At best, models should only be left out of the fight if the opposing unit is too narrow to contact all enemy models, e.g. an 8-wide unit of Orcs fighting a 5-wide unit of Orcs should only leave one model out of contact with an enemy.
It will still be possible to have just one or two models in contact after the charge, but for no other reason than a misrelation between chagre reach and distance.

If you can maximise models in b-t-b, you will have to.

If you cannot, you will not have to, but you should still try to find a solution to bring more models into combat - even if this means fudging it a little.

Festus

12-09-2006, 16:18
Fit in as many models as possible, from both sides.

Ganymede
12-09-2006, 16:23
Wait a second, I remember reading in the charge rules that after you make contact and use your free wheel to square up contact, you must slide over to make a battle line.

Festus
12-09-2006, 17:21
Hi

Wait a second, I remember reading in the charge rules that after you make contact and use your free wheel to square up contact, you must slide over to make a battle line.
Nope, you must not slide over.

If you cannot make a battle line (because of terrain,other units, etc.) you will have to fudge it - both units if necessary.

If you cannot wheel because this would mean no contact, you don't need to. Bring *as many models as possible* into combat, you are not forced to bring *all* models into combat.

Fredmans
12-09-2006, 19:07
It will still be possible to have just one or two models in contact after the charge, but for no other reason than a misrelation between chagre reach and distance.

If you can maximise models in b-t-b, you will have to.

If you cannot, you will not have to, but you should still try to find a solution to bring more models into combat - even if this means fudging it a little.

Festus

As always, Festus, I take your answer to be correct, and it was the option that seemed to make the most sense to me as well.

See, this is my problem with both the 6th and 7th edition. I was just wishing for better rules. With these rules, an almost failed charge can be more effective than a certain charge, denying opponents their counter-attacks. We have a house rule that calls for sliding if the charged opponent demands it, shifting any possible advantage away from the one who miscalculates the charge.

/Not confused anymore, just victim of wishful thinking

12-09-2006, 21:42
The only problem with sliding, is that a canny opponent can use it to his advantage to suck a charging enemy unit into better position to be countercharged, or just to not be able to do anything with an overrun/pursuit.

Unfortunately due to the nature of the charge system, there IS going to be some 'clipping' at very rare instances on the outside cusp of charge ranges. Such is life.

13-09-2006, 00:34
A lot depends on if you're playing a friendly game or a more formal tournament style game.

Between me and my friends, we fudge a lot, wheeling and sliding both units to always maximize modles in b2b. As long as we have the range to touch units, we'll get all the models in contact one way or another, and re-orient both units if needed to come up with a battle line that satisfies both players on the intent of the charge, and not abusing any clipping.

13-09-2006, 01:37
The rules tell you to fudge it, so even in a tournament, those would be the rules.

Festus
13-09-2006, 04:43
Hi

The rules tell you to fudge it, so even in a tournament, those would be the rules.
Nope, negative:
The rules only tell you to shuffle and fudge *if it nos possible to form a proper battle-line*.

So usually no fudging in tournaments... while you play RAW.

Festus

Ganymede
13-09-2006, 05:48
"once the charging unit is in contact, it is automatically aligned against its enemy to form a battle line"

This is the rule that is creating the confusion, as it could be interpreted several ways. One could take it to mean something similar to what the relevent rule meant in 6th. Conversely, someone could take aligned to mean "lined up".

The rulebook does not do a very good job explaining what this "aligning" is. From the diagram it appears to be a wheel, but that's certainly not true in all circumstances.

Atrahasis
13-09-2006, 12:53
The rules tell you to fudge it, so even in a tournament, those would be the rules.

No, they don't. They tell us to fudge it if and only if terrain or another unit prevents the formation of a battle line.

If it is merely charge distance preventing absolute maximisation, no fudging is required or allowed by the rules.

Avian
13-09-2006, 12:59
From the diagram it appears to be a wheel
I believe they wanted to avoid the word "wheel", so people would not confuse it with the one wheel you are allowed during the charge move.

ganymed
13-09-2006, 13:21
I have another question concerning clipping

Is the order of declaring charges in 7th edition as important as the order of close combats ?
E.g. as i have to maximize both sides models in contact some differences might occur:

Example: my 5 wide orcs(OOOOO) combine a charge with an orc chariot against the enemies 5 wide chaos warriors (CCCCC)
If i move my chariot(HH) first, something like this will occur

CCCCC
-HH

Then i&#180;ll move my orcs for a total of

CCCCC
-HHOOOOO

If i move the orcs first, something like this will occur

CCCCC
OOOOO

after moving the chariot, this will result to

-- CCCCC
HHOOOOO

and the chariot is clipping.

Or do i move my chargers simultanous and the net result will be

--CCCCC
-HHOOOOO

I&#180;m still a little bit confused with this rule :confused:

Atrahasis
13-09-2006, 13:28
In this case the chariot will clip, as more models are brought into combat by doing that than having the orcs overhang. See the bottom of page 23.

Festus
13-09-2006, 14:17
Hi

Correct, all the Orcs and the chariot are required to make contact.

Festus

Hashut's Li'l Helper
13-09-2006, 16:14
If you have as many models in contact as possible it isn't clipping, it's just getting more models in on the charge. The whole reason that clipping was bad was that you could arrange it (especially with chariots) so that the opponent couldn't attack back after you hit himdue to leaving otherwise healthy models out of contact. If you have units covering his entire front, the only instance that he cannot attack back is if you utterly destroy his front rank(in which case he's probably hosed anyway). Intentional "clipping" has been made impossible with the maximze models in contact rule.

If you can manage to get a combined charge with chariots hanging off of both corners, my hats off to you. I probably deserve to get beaten by you anyway.

Fredmans
13-09-2006, 18:14
Intentional "clipping" has been made impossible with the maximze models in contact rule.

"Intentional" abuse of clipping is harder, but clipping itself is in no way forbidden. An example:

You attack chosen Khorne knights with a regiment of 20 warriors in 4 ranks. Luckily for you, your infantry just reaches them, and only one model makes it into contact. You reduce his knights' fighting ability to 2 models and still get the +5 for ranks, standard and outnumber.

The rule is that you have to maximize the number of models fighting, but it does not allow your troops to extend their charge distance, except for the alignment "wheel" when you make contact.

Atrahasis
13-09-2006, 18:15
If you can manage to get a combined charge with chariots hanging off of both corners, my hats off to you. I probably deserve to get beaten by you anyway.

Quite easy in 7th - charge the front of a 5-wide infantry unit with 4 chariots. :D

static grass
13-09-2006, 20:40
Clipping is not mentioned at all in the rule book. I find it hard to believe that they forgot. It does mention that the website will have some "clarifiactions" so perhaps it will.

Hashut's Li'l Helper
13-09-2006, 22:01
Quite easy in 7th - charge the front of a 5-wide infantry unit with 4 chariots. :D
As I said, if I leave myself open to that then I deserve to lose.

Fredmans
"Intentional" abuse of clipping is harder, but clipping itself is in no way forbidden. An example:

You attack chosen Khorne knights with a regiment of 20 warriors in 4 ranks. Luckily for you, your infantry just reaches them, and only one model makes it into contact. You reduce his knights' fighting ability to 2 models and still get the +5 for ranks, standard and outnumber.

The rule is that you have to maximize the number of models fighting, but it does not allow your troops to extend their charge distance, except for the alignment "wheel" when you make contact.

In the 6th edition the ban on clipping was to stop "some players (that) have been known to exploit the rules by intentionally clipping just a corner in order to have just a few models fighting, and thus gainingsome kind of unfair advantage." In order to have the situation that you describe both players must be complicit in setting it up, so if you end up there you should have known better. It is true that a person can set up a "unfair"clip by using magic, but even in 6th edition "unavoidable clips" were only resolved at the players discretion or " You have to live with the clipping, and get on with the game"

It just seems to me that if certain "clipping" situations are still possible in seventh edition, and no mention of bad sportsmanship is made, then by definitions, or convention, they must be acceptable. After all, if GW had not come down on the practice in the first place as immoral, then no one ever would have known .

14-09-2006, 07:30
Quite easy in 7th - charge the front of a 5-wide infantry unit with 4 chariots. :D

Good god, if that's what passes as "quite easy" to you, we need to enter you in some GT's. You must be a Warhammer savant.

Then again, your opponents could just be stumps...

hertz
14-09-2006, 07:47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atrahasis
Quite easy in 7th - charge the front of a 5-wide infantry unit with 4 chariots.

Good god, if that's what passes as "quite easy" to you, we need to enter you in some GT's. You must be a Warhammer savant.

Then again, your opponents could just be stumps...

why would it be hard to charge infantry with chariots? its like theoretically the most easy thing to do...

Atrahasis
14-09-2006, 09:49
Good god, if that's what passes as "quite easy" to you, we need to enter you in some GT's. You must be a Warhammer savant.

I guarantee it will happen in the majority of my games at Heat One next month.

eldrak
14-09-2006, 13:36
Clipping has always been allowed. It should just be avoided if possible at all.

Hashut's Li'l Helper
14-09-2006, 14:38
I guarantee it will happen in the majority of my games at Heat One next month.

Hooray for guns at Gunfights

Fredmans
14-09-2006, 20:09
In order to have the situation that you describe both players must be complicit in setting it up, so if you end up there you should have known better.

I actually edited a section of my post that said these kind of comments were not helpful. How is it impossible for a unit that is subject to frenzy to fail a charge, or overrun into a position that happens to be the one I gave as an example. I agree that it is not something that will occur every game, but every now and then, situations like this will arise, although a situation where the roles are reversed is far more likely.

As someone else mentioned, 6th ed. made an issue of clipping. 7th ed. did not mention it at all. That was the cause of my confusion in the first place. Were the rules, in some manner that I did not detect, taking care of the issue or not? I see now that there still will be technical moments of involuntary clipping in 7th ed.

Respectfully, Fredmans

Atrahasis
14-09-2006, 20:33
The new rules on maximising deal with clipping as best as the rules can, in that only involuntary clipping is now possible, and that was acceptable in the past any way.

haberova
14-09-2006, 22:19
Clipping has always been allowed. It should just be avoided if possible at all.

Actually in one of the compendiums it states to disregard page __ (whatever page in the book that talks about clipping). So it's been banned in 6th like stated above.

Atrahasis
14-09-2006, 23:56
Actually in one of the compendiums it states to disregard page __ (whatever page in the book that talks about clipping). So it's been banned in 6th like stated above.

No, it was the appendix on accidental charges that was scrapped.

Hashut's Li'l Helper
15-09-2006, 01:41
I actually edited a section of my post that said these kind of comments were not helpful. How is it impossible for a unit that is subject to frenzy to fail a charge, or overrun into a position that happens to be the one I gave as an example. I agree that it is not something that will occur every game, but every now and then, situations like this will arise, although a situation where the roles are reversed is far more likely.

As someone else mentioned, 6th ed. made an issue of clipping. 7th ed. did not mention it at all. That was the cause of my confusion in the first place. Were the rules, in some manner that I did not detect, taking care of the issue or not? I see now that there still will be technical moments of involuntary clipping in 7th ed.

Respectfully, Fredmans

My point was that the unit of khornate knights had to have put themselves into that position whether thru move, failed move, or overrun. If thru original move, they were complicit. If through the other ways, well thats the big drawback of frenzy isn't it.

What I had said in earlier posts was that "clipping" (6th ed version) came from the intentional abuse of offsetting units It wasn't capitol W wrong if it came about inadvertantly. In seventh, it doesnt even exist as a concept. All but the difficult to reliably obtain versions of the intentional offsetting for advantage have been eliminated by the maximising models rule. I'm not saying that the example you came up with could/would not have been considered "clipping" under the old rules, I just think that the chances that those Khornate knights had rolled a 10 on the overrun and been 1/2" out of range, are too great for anyone to use this as a major point of tactica.

haberova
15-09-2006, 01:48
No, it was the appendix on accidental charges that was scrapped.

Ya, you're right. I had a guy in a tournament using a bunch of clipping and accidental charges on me. I got them mixed up.

Fredmans
15-09-2006, 07:24
I just think that the chances that those Khornate knights had rolled a 10 on the overrun and been 1/2" out of range, are too great for anyone to use this as a major point of tactica.

Again, I agree, but this was a rules' concern, not tactica. It is not a matter of long-shot odds or taking advantage of it. The situation will arise, and the rules will still feel less than satisfactory.

Respectfully, Fredmans