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blitz589
25-06-2005, 04:02
Well they can't keep fighting on all sides, so my vote goes to Tau, because they are the most humanoid (non chaos) race, and it would definetly make both sides benifet, Tau gets Imperiums Prtection, and The Imperium gets Taus Tech.

Rabid Bunny 666
25-06-2005, 04:04
Tau or Eldar IMHO

TenTailedCat
25-06-2005, 04:06
Erm... fluff forum perhaps?

Aside from that.. nobody. The Emperor said it himself - Humanity has the divine right to rule the galaxy. The Tau are a bunch of arrogant little snotlings who wouldn't surrender to the superiority of the human race, even if we wanted them to.

The Eldar are no better and they're in their twilight years anyway.

Apart from that there aren't many civilised races around.

Anyway, don't you remember the Laer? They were the most advanced species ever encountered by humanity and were obliterated in the space of one month. The Imperium can take out anyone if they get the chance to concentrate their forces.

x-esiv-4c
25-06-2005, 04:29
I don't think the Imperium would ally with anyone. I suppose in some sectors a Non-aggression pact could be formed ala Molotov. In which case, Tau or Eldar I suppose.

Khaine's Messenger
25-06-2005, 04:46
In the long-term, it's quite likely that the only "allies" the Imperium might count itself as on friendly terms with would be the Craftworld Eldar....something not even the Eldar are very comfortable with, as the Craftworld Eldar have little in the way of a unified "government" with which the Imperium can ally. Still, it's unlikely that either side will ever come to good enough terms to ever truly call them allies.

Strikerkc
25-06-2005, 04:55
Background wise I know some Imperial forces have found themselves forced to ally with Tau, Eldar, and orks before. (some ork forces actualy act as mercenary forces).

They couldn't ally with Tyranids (though they could possibly use them as weapons at some point, think Star Craft), Necrons, Chaos (ally with chaos and you are chaos), Dark Eldar (they're crazzy psychos that would rather kill a guard regement than ever ally with one).

Jeru
25-06-2005, 06:17
Erm... fluff forum perhaps?

Aside from that.. nobody. The Emperor said it himself - Humanity has the divine right to rule the galaxy. The Tau are a bunch of arrogant little snotlings who wouldn't surrender to the superiority of the human race, even if we wanted them to.

The Eldar are no better and they're in their twilight years anyway.

Apart from that there aren't many civilised races around.

Anyway, don't you remember the Laer? They were the most advanced species ever encountered by humanity and were obliterated in the space of one month. The Imperium can take out anyone if they get the chance to concentrate their forces.

this is why i dont play SM :(
stuck up humans!

Nazguire
25-06-2005, 06:32
No one. None. nada nil zilch. The only race that they would come close to allying with are the Eldar, and even then it is a mutual arrangement to kill their mutual enemies before turning on each other again.

The Laer were wiped out by the Emperors Children pre-Heresy. They were a race that was predicted would take decades to wipe out and would inflict astronomical casualties. The Emperor realised this and wanted to make them a protectorate, or in other words, a place that is left alone if they leave the Imperium alone.

Pity that the EC wiped them out in a few months...:evilgrin:

Myst
25-06-2005, 07:19
Well they can't keep fighting on all sides

They seem to be doing ok so far...?

glimli
25-06-2005, 08:40
they would never be formal allies wth any xenos race. at the most they might have temporoay truces to fight a common foe. and even then i can only see that happening with tau or craftworld eldar. as for the other races that stuff happens in blacklibrary books now and again for very specail reasons occasionally.

dont ever expec tto see a formal alliance between the imperium and xenos. have a read of the fluff and this might be clearer.

sigur
25-06-2005, 11:20
No long time alliances. Only loose, short-termed agreements with the Eldar or the Tau. In many cases, Eldar and IG fought alongside to overwelm a greater enemy.

OH, wait, there is an alliance. With the Squat motherworlds.

Pertinax
25-06-2005, 11:34
Treaties and alliances are different things.

Eldar are so splintered that there is no one "race" to ally with. It would rather be a form of treaties with various craftworlds/outposts.

Dark Eldar would be unlikely. They are so xenophobic and isolationist that they would be unapproachable by Imperial agents.

Necrons would just try to Harvest the Imperium's inhabitants. There is no reasoning with a single minded, mono-tasked race.

Orks would present the same problems as Eldar. It would be likely (if at all), that there would only be small scale pockets of Orks that would be interested in non-agression. And that would probably be on a short time scale anyway.

Tyranids? Please don't eat us! We know you need our biomass, but please don't eat us, eat them!! Highly unlikey.

Tau would present the most likely treaty. But I would expect several things:
1: It would be a Tau initiative, since they are more active diplomatically.
2: It would take the form of small non-agression pacts.
3: The Imperium would only take such treaties if it was to benefit them at the time. They would be more than willing to break the treaty.

Basically, the Imperial Dogma is so centred upon the Human's right to the Galaxy, that I really don't think that they would ally with any of the races above. At least not on any great, race-encompacing scale.

(Oh, and I'm moving this to Background)

Wiseman
25-06-2005, 11:35
they wouldnt ever ally with anyone, they are the imperium of man, not the imperium of man and xenos, if they did though, the ordo xenos would have a field day.

Rich
25-06-2005, 11:54
The Imperium gets Taus Tech.

I find it interesting that you think the Imperium need Tau tech. Personally, I can't think of many areas in whcih the Imperium can't produce an example of better technology, and there are some fields in which the Tau don't even have a look in. Still, that is best saved for a different thread.

The Imperium are not much of a race for allies, although there arehe degrees of relativeity within the ordo xenos along the lines of "every alien must die, but they don't all have to die at once" i.e. the reason why the eldar craftworlds have not been hunted down and destroyed (apart from Eldar cunning) is that the Imperium has largely ignored them in favour of bigger threats (the same with the Tau). The Eldar are natural allies for the Imperium, sharing as they do many common enemies (chaos and necrons being the biggies) and so they quite often seem to end up acting in concert (less combined arms as shared objectives). The Tau are seen as a roadblock to the nids, and the Orks have been used in much the same way - it would seem that the Imperium have learnt from the eldar's trick of using the orks against humans on armageddon, and have decided to use the orks in turn to take out the devourer.

Nonetheless, t he Imperium is always happy to turn on their allies and vica versa - they just use alien races when they can and attempt to take out the most important threat first. There's no sence in taking out biel tan when that craftworld is fighting the orks for you, especially when the nids are coming.

Pertinax
25-06-2005, 12:05
I find it interesting that you think the Imperium need Tau tech. Personally, I can't think of many areas in whcih the Imperium can't produce an example of better technology, and there are some fields in which the Tau don't even have a look in. Still, that is best saved for a different thread.

I also can't see many instances where the Tau would be willing to give the Imperium their tech, let alone the Imperium be willing to use it.

Axel
25-06-2005, 13:19
I think its a rare day when the Imperium manages to bring all of its own forces to cooperate. The likeliest strategic alliance we can expect is Eldar and Tau, with the Eldar playing the pupeteer. I really wonder why the alliance-list given in one of the recent WD did forbid this specific cooperation.

Pertinax
25-06-2005, 13:43
That said, I think the most likely alliance would be Imperial and Imperial ( ;) ).

warlordgrubnatz
25-06-2005, 13:59
i think if the imperium eased up on the xenophobia they would ally with the tau, possibly eldar but eldar and humanity are both too arrogant to join together imo.

Shadowheart
25-06-2005, 14:31
Depending on what version of the background you read, alliances between Imperial and xenos forces are actually commonplace, but even in those earlier editions of the background it was a matter of temporarily putting aside differences to fight a mutual foe. If it happens it's a case of immediate practical neccissity, I don't believe it extends to a long term, universal alliance between say, the Imperium, the Tau Empire and the Eldar Craftworlds aiming to defeat the Tyranids/Chaos/Necrons once and for all. That may seem like the logical thing to do for us as background readers, but their perspective is entirely different, as is their logic.

I'll also point out that there are very few Imperials that know of or could tell the difference between the various Eldar groups, so for their part they might well throw in with a band of Dark Eldar if they had to. Could be a beneficial ploy for the Dark Eldar too,.

TheSonOfAbbadon
25-06-2005, 14:40
OH, wait, there is an alliance. With the Squat motherworlds.

Squats weren't Xenos. Squats were part of the human empire pre- warpstorm-surrounding-Terra and evolved over the centuries into short, wide, strong people.

Like Ratlings, but stronger built.

Inquisitor Maul
25-06-2005, 14:56
OH, wait, there is an alliance. With the Squat motherworlds.

Remember, there are no Squats ;)

*armed men drags Sigur away, never to be heard from again*

angelspast
25-06-2005, 18:04
At best temporary alliances with eldar of tau. Once the objective was achieved they'd be fair game again.

The Imperium is a Highly xenophobic institution, long term cooperation is impossible.

+edit+ who actually voted for tyranids? :rolleyes:

Lordmonkey
25-06-2005, 18:17
I'd say the Eldar, but their Dark cousins might cause a bit of ruckus so such a pact wouldn't last long...

Witch Hunter
25-06-2005, 19:57
Who voted 'nids?

IMHO there is no possible diplomacy with a race who exhibits such an alien(no pun intended) gestalt consciousness whose only ambition, nee' purpose is to feed.

Might redirect, such as Leviathan, but definitely not ally.

Besides anyone advocating such heresy as Xenos alliances should, and will, be declared Excommunicate Traitoris and hunted down.

Axel
25-06-2005, 20:03
Depending on what version of the background you read, alliances between Imperial and xenos forces are actually commonplace,...

Well, perhaps the question should be the other way around. With whom would the Imperial forces never ally?

Tyranids, probably, because as far as the fluff goes the Nids do not understand the concept of diplomacy or allies.

Necrons? I can imagine a temporary alliance between the odd Ctan and imperial forces, especially (actually: only) to fight off the Tyranid threat to the whole galaxy.

pnweerar
25-06-2005, 20:04
We can't trust the Eldar, and they have proven their treacherousness.

We can always crush the Tau afterwards.

Navin

Strikerkc
25-06-2005, 20:44
Necrons? I can imagine a temporary alliance between the odd Ctan and imperial forces, especially (actually: only) to fight off the Tyranid threat to the whole galaxy.

Na, not a chance. Necrons are a race that doesn't even need to recruit, they wouldn't give a flip about the nids.

Witch Hunter
25-06-2005, 20:56
Na, not a chance. Necrons are a race that doesn't even need to recruit, they wouldn't give a flip about the nids.


Actually, the 'Nids are exactly the type of prey the C'tan and their Necron lackeys would care about. They hate any race with anything that has to do with the Warp or its use, or the Old Ones. 'Nids fall into the former category at least, while I doubt the latter. The 'Nids may make a fine meal for the C'tan, a particular delicacy if you will.

As far as the Necrons needing to ally to fight off the tyranid menace, IIRC, the 'nids actively avoid Necron tomb worlds. Might have something to do with the fact that they have no biomass to consume....

My two pence....

susu.exp
25-06-2005, 21:16
TenTailedCat wrote:

The Emperor said it himself - Humanity has the divine right to rule the galaxy.

Oh look, someone has bought into the monodominants historic revisionism. This was said by Inquisitor Goldo in the 3rd century of M33. not by the Emperor.

On the general issue: The imperium has allied with Eldar (for instance during the horus heresy), Orks (Blood Axes are an - if unreliable ally) and Squats (Golgotha prime) in the past, fractions have allied with Tau and Kroot (human auxiliaries, but also references in Ravenor) as well as with Tyranids (Zoats, īstealer cults).

And letīs not forget: Half of the imperium allied with Chaos back in the day and occassionaly SM chapters or IG regiments and even Inquisitors will do so even now.

Strikerkc
25-06-2005, 21:25
Actually, the 'Nids are exactly the type of prey the C'tan and their Necron lackeys would care about.

While my post didn't make it fully clear, I meant it in the sence that the Necrons wouldn't feel they would need to ally with someone to beat the Nids. I know that they're on oposite ends of the warp spectrum, and there fore dire enemies, but that doesn't mean that eigther one feels they are some how out classed by the other.

sulla
25-06-2005, 22:34
Officially, the imperium would never ally with any xenos race. Remember, aliens are competing with humans for the same space (the galaxy). Only by ridding it, they will humans be safe (except from chaos...).

That said, battlefield expediency and politics mean alliances can and do occur.

Orks, Dark Eldar, Eldar pirates and minor races have all been hired by Imperial governors as mercenaries...

Some mechanicus may be in cahoots with necrons...

Whole worlds have fallen under the sway of Genestealer cults...

Some humans fight for the 'greater good' in alliance with Tau...

Craftworld Eldar have found common purpose in allying with humanity to fight traditional enemies such as Chaos...

So, there can be alliances with any of these races. But it is unlikely that the humans allying with the aliens. In fact, the alliance may signify that a human group is no longer loyal to the imperium...

Falkus
26-06-2005, 03:31
Some humans fight for the 'greater good' in alliance with Tau...

Hell, even Space Marines have made temporary battlefield alliances with the Tau (in the novel Firewarrior). Of course, that was only because Space Marines consider the forces of Chaos as a more important target than any xenos race.

Witch Hunter
26-06-2005, 04:40
Whole worlds have fallen under the sway of Genestealer cults...


Which is a far cry from being allied with the Tyranids. At least in the strictest of definitions....

Mojaco
26-06-2005, 12:43
I think a Tau/Imperium treaty is very possible. Both have trouble with Tyranids and Orks, the Imperium has it's hands full in the Eastern Fringe at the moment and both have gained enormous respect for one another during the Damos (?) Crusade.

If the Imperium was yellow and Tau was blue, there are a few green worlds right now. Humans living in Tau areas and Tau living among men. The Imperium doesn't like it, but it's not high on the agenda. I'd say that's a form of treaty.

The Imperial Guard using Kroot mercenaries, although rare, is another example.

Bruen
26-06-2005, 12:53
I had to laugh at the idea of Tyranids allying with with the Imperium.

Thats a bit like Stalin allying with a KFC family bucket :P

Brusilov
26-06-2005, 13:14
I am seriously disappointed that the option, none of the above was forgotten.
The Imperium will never a permanent alliance with any of the race mentioned above, or with any for that matter. The current masters of the Imperium believe that Mankind has a manifest destiny to rule the stars, all of them, and that allies are heathens to be exterminated for standing in the way of the future of humanity.
Any alliance or peace treaty is at best a tactical decision, such as the end of the Damocles Crusade against the Tau when hive fleet Behemoth came knocking on Ultramar's door.

If you want good reasons, why they wouldn't ally with anyone here are possible explanations:
- Dark Eldar: how can you ally with a bunch of treacherous pointy ears that will enslave your population and torture them at the first possible occasion?
- Orks: how can you ally with a race that considers that war and struggle are a natural way of life, and on top of that becomes ever stronger in the process? They'll turn on you once the enemy has been killed
- Necrons: how can you even fathom an alliance with an army of mindless drones whose only purpose is to enslave mankind as a food source for their star gods?
- Tau: more difficult because on the surface you can discuss with them, trade with them, but in the end an alliance means in their eyes absorption into the Tau empire and that is unacceptable. On top of that, these heathens are corrupting servants of the Emperor, death to the infidels!
- Nids: we are food, is there anything more to say? You cannot reason with something that sees you as its next meal.
- Eldar: they see us as a knife to be wielded at their enemy or a meatshield to protect them, there can be no agreement between us.

And finally I would point out at the atmosphere argument. 40k is dark and desperate, part of it is that races that would have a greater chance of survival by standing together are at each other's throat.
In the best of worlds, it would seem logical to have a grand alliance between Mankind, the Eldar and the Tau to deal with the threat of the Nids, the Necrons and Chaos.
But in 40k it does not happen thus. This is no goodie-two-shoes Star Trek, nor should it be.

Lord Lucifer
26-06-2005, 16:27
There are no allies, only tools to be manipulated. Every extra-terrestrial race in the 41st Millenium is a threat to the Imperium, in some capacity or other.

There will be no lasting treaty between the Imperium and any other race, only circumstances where it will be favourable not to pursue hostile action against a given race.
When hard-pressed by Chaotic forces, necrons, the Ork scourge, or the onset of a Tyranid Hive Fleet, you won't say no to a few Falcons full of Eldar throwing their lives away to stem the tide. Both the Imperium and the force that may be working towards the same goal at a given time have a mutual understanding that once the task is done, they're enemies again, and whoever is the underdog in that case would do best to beat a hasty retreat


Hell, it can be less taxing on resources to buy-off an influencial Ork warboss with a few tanks to make them your enemy's problem instead of your own.


But treaties... formal alliances, it isn't on the agenda
Orks don't want an alliance.
The Eldar would use the Imperium for their own purposes, and that alone. The Dark Eldar are more a nuisance than a threat, and civil contact is next to impossible
They hardly know what to make of the Necrons, other than 'wreckage'
Even the Tau are dangerous as allies. Their preaching of this 'greater good', their methods and ideas of honour are extremely dangerous, as that would weaken Imperial society that has deliberately been made more and more inhumane so that it stands a chance of survival in the cruel universe. It's insidious and tempting, but a dangerously weak ideal for so vast and universally despised a race as humanity
Besides, why side with an oblivious replica of humanity as it was just before the dark age of technology? The Tau are undoubtedly doomed to the same fate as Mankind was, and they do not seem vast enough to survive it.
[/3a.m. speculation]


Anyway, where practical other races can be tolerated, for a time, but it would be a stretch to call them allies

Pertinax
26-06-2005, 19:33
Think I said all of that before. ;)

But Brusilov's point about the "dark and desparate" is the whole essence of things. Well pointed out.

Falkus
26-06-2005, 19:59
- Tau: more difficult because on the surface you can discuss with them, trade with them, but in the end an alliance means in their eyes absorption into the Tau empire and that is unacceptable. On top of that, these heathens are corrupting servants of the Emperor, death to the infidels!

While I agree that any sort of alliance is impossible, let me just mention that at this point in history, the Imperium currently has a non-agression treaty with the Tau (though it's a treaty that the Impeium violates every other week, it would seem).

Thud
26-06-2005, 20:20
Some humans fight for the 'greater good' in alliance with Tau...

And some humans fight in alliance with the Chaos gods. What exactly is your point?


The original question was "Who would the Imperium ally with?"

The answer, as I see it, is pretty simple and pretty obvious: No one. Ever.


There might be quasi-treaty-esque agreements between the Tau and the local authorities under times of duress, but that will never be anything like an alliance between the Imperium and the Tau.

Bruen
26-06-2005, 20:21
I could see an alliance between the Tau and the Eldar though.

Brusilov
26-06-2005, 21:07
While I agree that any sort of alliance is impossible, let me just mention that at this point in history, the Imperium currently has a non-agression treaty with the Tau (though it's a treaty that the Impeium violates every other week, it would seem).

I'd say the Tau violate it just as much when they can get a new world to join their empire. They know full well the Imperium has its hands tied elsewhere and thus cannot reply in full force to their expansionism. So the violations are on both sides...

As to a Tau/Eldar treaty or alliance, I think the Eldar look at the Tau with interest but consider they are too weak for be worth really taking note right now.
And the Tau are not in the best region of space either, their closest neighbours are from Biel Tan, not the peaceful kind.
I would also point out that Eldar would probably see the Tau as another weapon to manipulate, to compete with the Imperium and eventually replace it as the shield that protects the Eldar should Mankind fall...
No I don't see the Eldar as allying with the Tau.

Falkus
26-06-2005, 23:06
I'd say the Tau violate it just as much when they can get a new world to join their empire. They know full well the Imperium has its hands tied elsewhere and thus cannot reply in full force to their expansionism. So the violations are on both sides...

Possible, but that's just speculation.


I would also point out that Eldar would probably see the Tau as another weapon to manipulate, to compete with the Imperium and eventually replace it as the shield that protects the Eldar should Mankind fall...

Eldrad seemed to think that the Tau had the potential to become more than the Eldar ever were.

Bruen
26-06-2005, 23:19
I would also point out that Eldar would probably see the Tau as another weapon to manipulate, to compete with the Imperium and eventually replace it as the shield that protects the Eldar should Mankind fall

How does that prevent an alliance? See the WW2 alliance between Russia and Germany and also the Russian/western alliance.

An alliance does not have to be sincere or honest, its just a bit of paper and some temporary cooperation.

Brusilov
27-06-2005, 06:52
Tau expansionism is just speculation? Ever read 'For the Emperor' the Ciphias Cain novel? That's Tau expansionism if I ever saw it. And what about the Nimbosa incident, IIRC it was caused by the Tau (the Imperium later intervened).

As to the relations between the Tau and the Eldar, do we think of a real alliance akin to that currently existing between western countries or a circumstancial alliance?
If the former, I still think it unlikely. The fact the Eldar see potential in them does not mean they'll agree to an alliance. What would be the Eldar's interest in this ATM? None, right now, the Tau are too weak and concentrated in space to be of any assistance.
If the latter, it's totaly possible, but then it also happens with the Imperium, think about the battle for the Cursus on Tallarn.

The Eldar would IMHO still betray anyone if their interests are at stake: such as defending their Maiden Worlds, protecting their Craftworlds... Survival remains more important to them than the potential of any other race.

Bruen
27-06-2005, 08:20
As to the relations between the Tau and the Eldar, do we think of a real alliance akin to that currently existing between western countries or a circumstancial alliance?

Maybe I am just cynical but I am pretty sure that the western nations today would turn on each other in an instant if they thought it was in their best interests. All alliances are purely convienence.

IMHO there is no such thing as a true alliance between competing groups of politicians.

Falkus
27-06-2005, 17:09
Tau expansionism is just speculation? Ever read 'For the Emperor' the Ciphias Cain novel?

Nope. I therefore withdraw my previous statement.


The Eldar would IMHO still betray anyone if their interests are at stake: such as defending their Maiden Worlds, protecting their Craftworlds... Survival remains more important to them than the potential of any other race.

All I'm saying is that there's possibly more to any relationsihp between Tau and Eldar than just simple manipulation like you suggested.

Zenithfleet
27-06-2005, 17:09
Who voted for Tyranids?... Must be that heretic from the 2nd ed Nid Codex :p Amusing bit of fluff, that was. Some lunatic ranting about how some Tyranids were "evidently highly intelligent" and how much humans could learn from them, boundaries of science pushed back, human and alien living in peace and harmony et cetera et cetera... :wtf:

The rest of the transcript had been deleted by some Imperial moral purity censor :D

Brusilov
27-06-2005, 17:52
Bruen, it is not being cynical to think so, but as you rightly point out because it is highly improbable that western countries would ever have any reason to go at each other's throat. And even back in the days of the most cynical realism of the westphalian system (as you can see I'm knowledgable in political science) war was not permanent and alliances had a certain structure.

Bruen
27-06-2005, 18:20
Bruen, it is not being cynical to think so, but as you rightly point out because it is highly improbable that western countries would ever have any reason to go at each other's throat.

I hope that you are right but we will see once the oil starts to run out.

Brusilov
27-06-2005, 22:31
This is going off-topic, but how well...
Oil... Do you really believe western countries will go to war against each other for oil? Let me point out that beside the US, no western countries has significant oil reserves on its territory, and probably not even in its exclusive economic zone at sea.
Thus if anything it'd be a war of western countries against states with vast oil reserves.

But then that's assuming natural resources are the cause of war in the modern world, which IMO is not the case. Contrary to what many people may think, the war in Iraq is not a war for resources, it's the exact opposite. It's a case of ideological war if I ever saw it.

Anyway, back to 40k...

Bruen
27-06-2005, 22:41
Oil... Do you really believe western countries will go to war against each other for oil? Let me point out that beside the US, no western countries has significant oil reserves on its territory, and probably not even in its exclusive economic zone at sea.

Yes I do.

At the moment its the west fighting together (ish) to gain control control oil-rich states, but once the supply starts to run really low its going to be USA vs China with Europe being crushed unless it gets its act together quickly. It will start with fighting between client states (Taiwan, Korea etc) and escalate.

We are already seeing the US making the opening moves, expanding its influence into the middle east (Iraq and soon Iran) and near east (Uzbekistan, Georgia etc - its not coincidence that a lot of regimes in this area changed from pro-Russia to pro-US right at the time when a massive US oil pipeline is nearing completion).

You are right though - we shouldn't hijack this thread. If you want to talk about this further please post a thread in P&R and I'll gladly continue.

Brusilov
27-06-2005, 23:00
Or we could counter-argue that the move into Central Asia (does Uzbekistan have much oil? not really. Kazakhstan and Azerbaidjan do) is part of a repeat of the great game between the UK and Russia at the turn of the 20th century for political influence in a region of the world. It's about preventing Russia to reassert its dominion over that part of the world.
The government change in the region are part of a move to prevent the reappearance of Russian imperialism. Why support revolution in a country like the Ukraine, which has no oil and is not used for oil transit (the Russians use the friendlier and neighbouring Bielorussia for that).
We could argue that the invasion of Iraq is part of an grand plan on the part of the US Administration to remodel the Middle East into more an environment more friendly to US interests and incidently to Israel.
What does Korea has to do with oil? It's about nuclear proliferation and the ideology of the last stalinist country on the planet.
What about Taiwan? It's about China's attempt to end the inequitable treaties of the 19th and early 20th centuries that imputated of part of its territory including such places as Hong Kong or Macao.

If there is ever a great power clash between the US and China, oil will be a pretext not the core of the matter. Power and status are what truly matter, not the amount of oil or gold you can amass.
Let's take examples of this. Spain was incredibly rich in gold and silver thanks to its mines in Latin America, that did not prevent it from going bankrupt several times during the 18th century, losing most of its colonies in the New World and slipping from world power into second rate power.
Over-reliance on oil leads to what economists call desindustrialisation because oil is so cheap and easy to sell, the country suffers from this. It is also called the Dutch syndrom (because the Netherlands suffer from this, but then so do Norway, Scotland, all of the oil producing countries in the Middle East, Russia...).
The real symbol of the power of a nation is its influence, its brains, maybe the size of its army (and it does not matter so much as it used to), the size of its economy, the wealth of its citizens and the perception this nation as of itself and others have of it (status).

So I certainly don't think oil is going to be the cause of warfare, an excuse and a pretext maybe but not the cause. International relations cannot be reduced to a single variable like oil, or even natural resources. Power and status have also showed their limitation but at least they're more flexible as concepts.
The concept of war driven by economics was defined by Lenin in his book on Imperialism. And there is no need for me to mention just how much of a failure marxism-leninism was, and how wrong it was about the so-called contradictions of the capitalist system.

But I truly believe that if you want to continue such discussion we should head elsewhere as this is not the place for such things.

StormKnight
27-06-2005, 23:09
No alliance is really likely for the Empire, as they are much to xenophobic, but if they were going to ally with anyone it will be Eldar. The Tau expansionistic tendency is too threatening to the Imperium.
Of course, I can see local rulers or individual chapter commanders making all sorts of temporary alliances that higher ups would strongly dissaprove of!

Brusilov
27-06-2005, 23:13
I don't see why the Imperium would ally with the Eldar, there are enough cases of Eldar turning of Imperials as soon as the common threat had been dealt with or attacking Imperial possession seemingly without cause.
Eldar are not to be trusted, they are whimsical, at least in the eyes of the Imperium.

Granted, they'd be really useful against Chaos, but then they fight the dark powers even without an alliance with the Imperium.

Circumstancial truces are possible, long-lasting alliances never. They'd be Bellum Interruptum (interruption of war, and this is real latin ;) ), not Pax

Nazguire
28-06-2005, 11:15
I don't see why the Imperium would ally with the Eldar, there are enough cases of Eldar turning of Imperials as soon as the common threat had been dealt with or attacking Imperial possession seemingly without cause.
Eldar are not to be trusted, they are whimsical, at least in the eyes of the Imperium.

Granted, they'd be really useful against Chaos, but then they fight the dark powers even without an alliance with the Imperium.

Circumstancial truces are possible, long-lasting alliances never. They'd be Bellum Interruptum (interruption of war, and this is real latin ;) ), not Pax


Indeed. The Eldar don't ally with anyone. Its more of a "We won't stab you if you don't nuke us" kind of thing. Bellum Interruptum as you put it. The Imperials and Eldar track record isn't good, and their niceties end with a pointing at the enemy and be off with it.

Biel-Tan for example, the most aggressive Craftworld, attackign Human colonies and slaughtering the inhabitants to every last man, woman and child, but its positive they still have truces for the battle before turning on the Imperium once more.

Brusilov
28-06-2005, 19:43
Indeed, the Eldar put it in an interesting way. They see the Imperium in the same way as a butcher sees its knife, a useful tool but not a friend or someone you'd ally with.

The Emperor
30-06-2005, 09:01
And what about the Nimbosa incident, IIRC it was caused by the Tau (the Imperium later intervened).

Any chance you can fill us in on the particulars of this situation, Brusilov? I've heard Nimbosa mentioned, before, but I have no idea what happened. So I'd appreciate it if you could enlighten me. Thanks.

Iracundus
30-06-2005, 13:01
Nimbosa was first mentioned in the Tau Codex and the situation brought a bit up to date in the Space Marine Codex.

As far as I can tell, it was a world claimed by the Imperium and settled by humans. The Tau had marked that world for annexation and landed forces there and told the humans there to move off or be annexed. It is unknown how successful the Tau were at taking over the planet but at the very least they established a significant presence. The Imperium sent a reinforcement fleet and tried to conceal its approach by stalling for time in dragging "negotiations" with the Tau, but the Tau Kor caste had already spotted the fleet and the Ethereals knew of the Imperial stalling tactic. Some Raven Guard, including Shrike, were in that Imperial force (or later deployed on their own initiative) and wiped out at least one Tau outpost. The "current" situation and fate of Nimbosa remain unknown.

Brusilov
30-06-2005, 17:23
It's probably another of these battlefields that will drag on for decades because the Tau don't have the strength to win and the Imperium cannot divert resources from more important war zones (who said Nids?) to Nimbosa.

Otherwise, Iracundus is right, at least as far as I'm aware.

highmarshaldave
30-06-2005, 21:03
Yep, I agree with Brusilov there (and Iracundus on his fluff). Nimbosa will probably turn out to be like the mid-years on the eastern front. . .

As for the main thread topic, alliance is too stron a word. Pact, maybe. Allaince, no.

Brusilov
30-06-2005, 21:52
Not quite, the eastern front was very much moving either one way or the other. For now I probably see the kind of stalemate of the first world war, but without the trenches (Tau don't believe in static defence), it's more a question of industrial output and resources than of grand strategy it would seem. Neither has the means to send the other packing.

Nazguire
01-07-2005, 09:51
Nimbosa was first mentioned in the Tau Codex and the situation brought a bit up to date in the Space Marine Codex.

As far as I can tell, it was a world claimed by the Imperium and settled by humans. The Tau had marked that world for annexation and landed forces there and told the humans there to move off or be annexed. It is unknown how successful the Tau were at taking over the planet but at the very least they established a significant presence. The Imperium sent a reinforcement fleet and tried to conceal its approach by stalling for time in dragging "negotiations" with the Tau, but the Tau Kor caste had already spotted the fleet and the Ethereals knew of the Imperial stalling tactic. Some Raven Guard, including Shrike, were in that Imperial force (or later deployed on their own initiative) and wiped out at least one Tau outpost. The "current" situation and fate of Nimbosa remain unknown.



Nimbosa was also attacked by the Ultramarines under Captain Agemman, destroying key anti-aircraft batteries and obliterating a Tau installation.

Under that type of conflict (2 known types of heavy Astartes involvement) and the IN fleet having arrived (guessing so since the Astartes would take just as long to get there) I will make the assumption that Nimbosa is under the control of the Imperium once again or close to it.

Dread Archon - Angry Pete
01-07-2005, 22:57
Hahaha, its good to see that someone...everyone would vote even 'nids over dark eldar. If there was ever an impossibility it would be an insectile, utterly alien, all consuming entity like the 'nids forming an alliance with the Imperium.
Despite GW's contempt, DE are still the most evil, bitchslappin' muthas in the galaxy...

Inquis. Jaeger
02-07-2005, 02:39
Tau or Eldar, with Ork Blood Axes as an outsider.

Nazguire
02-07-2005, 05:42
Hahaha, its good to see that someone...everyone would vote even 'nids over dark eldar. If there was ever an impossibility it would be an insectile, utterly alien, all consuming entity like the 'nids forming an alliance with the Imperium.
Despite GW's contempt, DE are still the most evil, bitchslappin' muthas in the galaxy...

And thus did Dread Archon-Angry Pete deliver a sermon from the heavens..


Amen to that.


Now all they need is GW to support them.

:D

Brusilov
02-07-2005, 07:58
Ah yes the Blood Axes, kind forgot about I'll admit, but again, you run into the issue, mentioned many times before that it can only be a circumstancial truce never a fully fledged alliance, after all Blood Axes are still Orks...

TheSonOfAbbadon
02-07-2005, 12:44
Tau, because they are the most humanoid (non chaos) race

Um, hello? ELDAR!

Eldar are the race they are most likely to not fight with, they wouldn't permanently ally with them, they would just sign a non-aggression pact, then go about killing each other again.

Brusilov
02-07-2005, 22:44
I would point out that the likeness between humans and Eldar is only cursory and outward. In fact they are totally different beings, as GW wants to stir away from the Elven idea with Eldar (especially to rule completely the possibility for cross-breeding). IIRC there was a recent Index Xenos on Eldar, back when the Wave Serpent was released, that made this point clear.