PDA

View Full Version : Why do people not like space marines!!!!!????!!!!!



Daemon king Mad Dog
12-09-2006, 21:19
I have just noticed, people on here want space marines to get worse, me and my mates think that the super humaness of a space marine has gone, and think that all their stats (apart from armour save, i hardly ever fail them as it is!) should increase by 1. that means, strength 5, toughness 5, bs 5, and everything.


And any way, trust me, tackle them with eldar, and they are easy to take out (speaking as a space marine player who fights eldar regulary- oh and gets his but kick- regulary) ap 3 weapons such as a basilsk take them out loads, with a single shot from one, i took out a 400 point tzeench unit, this was the first turn! the only thing that is hard to take out are terminators, but i think thats fine as they can survive a TITAN standing on them!!!!

RampagingRavener
12-09-2006, 21:24
I have just noticed, people on here want space marines to get worse, me and my mates think that the super humaness of a space marine has gone, and think that all their stats (apart from armour save, i hardly ever fail them as it is!) should increase by 1. that means, strength 5, toughness 5, bs 5, and everything.

This is a joke, right? :eyebrows:

No, seriously. Unless Marines were bumped up to 40-odd points basic, that would make them stupidly overpowered...as for them not having "super humaness", compared to a regular Gaurdsman they're quite super-human enough.

lord_blackfang
12-09-2006, 21:25
Just because you lose with them doesn't mean they're weak ;)

cav da man
12-09-2006, 21:27
what my experience generally tells me is that people dont specificly hate space marines, sometimes its a jealousy for the spoilt abnoxious children that the space marines are of the 40k universe when many armies are in need of re-imaging but the marines sell the best and therefore push their way to the front of the queue. Other times it's because far too many people just go "space marines zomg cool!" which accounts for a large number of marine players, point 3 is that space marines lists are easy to customise and abuse to get an advantage over people and because they have the magical 3+ save which annoys everyone who wears double quilted toilet paper for armor.
Have i missed out anything else about space marines that people metaphorically screams abuse about them behind their backs?

Insane Psychopath
12-09-2006, 21:27
If you want somthing that Marines, also being T5 (but still T(4)5). Well there always Death Guards ;)

IP

Cheesehead
12-09-2006, 21:36
We hate space marines because typically, people who play Space Marines enjoy spending their free time staring at shiney things.

Bloody Gauntlet
12-09-2006, 21:37
I have just noticed, people on here want space marines to get worse, me and my mates think that the super humaness of a space marine has gone, and think that all their stats (apart from armour save, i hardly ever fail them as it is!) should increase by 1. that means, strength 5, toughness 5, bs 5, and everything.

Are you kidding? Or just roleplaying your forum name?

Nobody in his right mind would SM to get worse, but neither does anyone want them to get better. They're - on average - just fine, even if not in accordance with fluff/propaganda (but which army is?).

Higher stats mean higher points costs with generally less predictable survivability (less in numbers means less probability for realising averages in one game). Me, I wouldn't want that, but then, I like playing a (beer'n brezel) strategy game, not games of pure luck.

Daemon king Mad Dog
12-09-2006, 21:45
No joke. we read aboutsoace marines taking out thirty or forty people before tthey go out, of smashing thorugh brick walls. Of destroying a tank with two frag grenades (of that bit i don't get, but then he's ragnar black mane) and i play IG, a lot of the time against SM, and the IG always seem to atek them out, wether by shooting or in close combat. and raising the points to 40?!?!? are you crazy? 40 is just stupid. Allthough i think it is just jealousy of people not being able to take them otu :P

RampagingRavener
12-09-2006, 21:49
No joke. we read aboutsoace marines taking out thirty or forty people before tthey go out, of smashing thorugh brick walls. Of destroying a tank with two frag grenades (of that bit i don't get, but then he's ragnar black mane) and i play IG, a lot of the time against SM, and the IG always seem to atek them out, wether by shooting or in close combat. and raising the points to 40?!?!? are you crazy? 40 is just stupid. Allthough i think it is just jealousy of people not being able to take them otu :P

Jealousy? I've collected Marines myself in the past, admitadly not any more. But I've played my share of MEQ armies, and moved on from them because I've found them to be incredibally dull, turgid armies that almost play themselves.

Fluff does not make the rules. Game Balence makes the rules, and to be honest if you think 15 point models with WS, BS, St, T, and I 5, coupled with a 3+ armour save, is perfect game balence, then frankly there isn't a lot anyone can help you with.

BrainFireBob
12-09-2006, 21:51
Books do not equal gameplay. Marines are fairly balanced as is.

Emresh
12-09-2006, 21:57
Well, 40K as a game is too abstract to acurrately represent the fluff and still be balanced and interesting. As I remember, a marine in Necromunda was far closer to the fluff (though still not exact) but then Necromunda is more detailed than 40K so there you go.

As to why people hate them: Actually, most think they're pretty cool, but that there is an overabundance of them and that they tend to draw kiddies looking for something tough and shiny and killy with which they think they cannot lose. Marine armies played by those who actually have some skill and put character into their armies, looking for a fun game rather than to just crush all comers, are generally apreciated, though again they are heavilly overrepresented by their player base.

mooserehab86
12-09-2006, 22:03
When I use my Tyranid swarm against marines, I have a hard enough time killing normal marines. Boosting their stats is unecessary in my eyes. And like some other people have said, rules are not based on fluff. Otherwise, every army would always win (not that that would be possible) since every codex is filled entirely with fluff describing victories.

norwegianpuma
12-09-2006, 22:07
As to why people hate them: Actually, most think they're pretty cool, but that there is an overabundance of them and that they tend to draw kiddies looking for something tough and shiny and killy with which they think they cannot lose. Marine armies played by those who actually have some skill and put character into their armies, looking for a fun game rather than to just crush all comers, are generally apreciated, though again they are heavilly overrepresented by their player base.

I agree to a point, but I have yet to see when those lovely
SM players are actually appreciated. We are mostly greeted
with cold arrogance from everybody else in the gaming
community. :(

But yeah, I want to strangle every stupid kid who look at
SMs and say: 'They rule!' We should have an age
restriction for collecting Space Marines! :evilgrin:
Say, how about, fifteen years and up?

Okuto
12-09-2006, 22:12
No joke. we read aboutsoace marines taking out thirty or forty people before tthey go out, of smashing thorugh brick walls. Of destroying a tank with two frag grenades (of that bit i don't get, but then he's ragnar black mane) and i play IG, a lot of the time against SM, and the IG always seem to atek them out, wether by shooting or in close combat. and raising the points to 40?!?!? are you crazy? 40 is just stupid. Allthough i think it is just jealousy of people not being able to take them otu :P


Ummmm....yeah well we read about guardsmen doing amazing feats of arms(such as knowing how to use cover and how to aim properly!)

A good space marine player doesn't rant about how great they are, they are casual about it.

The marine players we love to hate are the fanboyz who rant about how it's not fair that their marines got flashlighted and how the lasgun shouldn't be able to even touch power armor.....

If you want uber marines, play Movie marines.....

I play marines as well and I think their fine as is. I like them at their 15 pts a piece. Plus their annoying as is to kill......

Plus mind you that CSM would have to get a boost too.....

Kamin_Majere
12-09-2006, 22:12
yeah fluff based armies would rock... i could paint a bunch of Eldar Frseers having tea somewhere discussing how to screw over some random race to cull a ork tide or stop a chaos incursion that might have maybe one day possibally caused an Eldar death... that'd be exciting:p

To topic, meh no one hates marines as much as is sick of them. They're just everywhere. Its hard to get in a game where your not playing agasint one marine flavor or another. Sometimes i enjoy playing orks or other eldar or tyranids... heck even necrons and IG are more fun to play against.

Okuto
12-09-2006, 22:16
hear hear......thank goodness there's so many different marines....but it still gets boring.....

I mean, if most of us didn't expect to face a marine army half the time, I'm sure our army list selections would change a bit. Like I wouldn't have to take plasma guns so often and dodads like that...

The Laughing Gods Avatar
12-09-2006, 22:17
The problem isnít with space marine stats; the problem is whom you are comparing them to. If you compare a space marine to an average Imperial citizen they are vastly superior, even compared to an Imperial Guardsmen, who are somewhat elevated beyond the average citizen due to combat training.

If anything is "under powered" in any way, its bolt gun/pistols, they are essentially a rapid-fire hand held RPG. That matter however comes down to a matter of fluff vs. balance.

cav da man
12-09-2006, 22:22
it is amazing to suddenly realise you can deny saves without uber weapons of killy doom. As a tau player said uber killy doom is easily within reach but i prefer a type of horde mech, static combo.

Helicon_One
12-09-2006, 22:22
Yeah, people don't generally hate Marines in themselves, they hate the fact that something ridiculous like 8 out of every 10 40K armies is Marines, and half of the rest are some equivalent Heavy Infantry (I refuse to use the M-E-Q abbreviation) variant.

I just want some variety in the armies I play against and I don't just mean the colour of their power armour.

Tim

Kahadras
12-09-2006, 22:23
We hate space marines because typically, people who play Space Marines enjoy spending their free time staring at shiney things.

Lets try to get a grip shall we? There's nothing wrong with Marines apart from the fact that GW have decided to use them (rightly or wrongly) as the flagship army for 40K. Therefore they get new stuff first.

On top of this they are pushed to younger players as they are relativly easy to paint and cheaper to collect than many of the other armies out there.

Kahadras

norwegianpuma
12-09-2006, 22:24
If anything is "under powered" in any way, its bolt gun/pistols, they are essentially a rapid-fire hand held RPG. That matter however comes down to a matter of fluff vs. balance.

Seconded. Game balancing is WAY more important to the Devs, in which they have my full support.

Johnny Bravo
12-09-2006, 22:55
I don't hate Marines, hell the Dark Angels are still one of my favorite forces. What I can't stand is people who insist on using multiple punctuation marks. I mean, I can understand the occasional '!?' and '...' or even the '!!' from time to time, but really, 11 exclamation marks and 4 question marks? Why? :confused:

dakkaBOOM
12-09-2006, 23:10
In addition to the fluff vs. balance issue, I would argue that the fluff itself is flawed and portrays marines in a way which makes them look more powerful than they actually are. The vast majority of fluff involves victories, but more importantly the vast majority of the fluff is written in the voice of some Imperial narrator. Even in my aging Ork codex much of the stories are written from the Imperial point of view. When you consider this, it's no wonder the fluff makes a vanilla space marine look like a god - the Imperium wants people to think marines are flawless, and so the Imperium writes it's background/propaganda in order to make people believe that marines can take on 40 men at once or a terminator could be crushed by a titan and still live.

In my opinion, GW doesn't write fluff in a historical manner. Rather, most things in the codexes are written to be Imperial propaganda/revised history, in order to reflect the Orwellian nature of the Imperium of Man.

Sekhmet
12-09-2006, 23:24
Or fluff is written to portray space marine heroes. Not the average line marine, but an exceptional one.

Look at Firewarrior. If that becomes the basis for all Tau fluff balancing, then Firewarriors will each be able to take down a Chaos Dreadnought 1 on 1. They'd carry enough explosives to bring down a Warlord Titan.

If M'koll is the average Guardsman, then they'd have like 4+ coversaves in the open and 2+ in cover of any sort. They'd hit on 2s with rerolls, and own everything in closecombat. Their lasguns would be able to take down power armored enemies easilly.

If Deathwatch really showed how Deathwatch Kill-teams worked, they'd put the Greyknights to shame.

In the many books where Inquisitors are main characters, many times they're heroic psykers with highly skilled retinues. In truth, most are not psykers, and most work in secret, rarely showing up to a battlefield.

If marines were as common as they are in the books, you'd see as many marine armies as you see dark eldar now. In terms of fluff, 85% of all games would be IG vs Orks or Tyranids or other IG. 5% would involve space marines, 5% tau, and the last 5% would be a mixture of Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Necrons. Chaos would be in there somewhere.. it'd be strange because they mostly do large crusades, not constant but small scale wars.

Kriegsherr
12-09-2006, 23:32
why hate marines? because to many play them in a too boring fashion.

Honestly, while there are some decent players, a lot of them forget all cover and tactical stuff because they are so excited over their 3+ bling that they charge over large distances .... sometimes I can't help but to think of it a copy of a braveheart scene.

And then they wonder why they got gunned down by a skilled opponent.


On a fluff note.... yes marines are superhumans. Thats why they have so many 4s in their profile. Only Supermen get this.

Combine this with their Kiddie-armour and the almighty-bolter, and he could gun down a lot of humans in the game before he bites the bullet.
I once killed a whole platoon of IG Soldiers with 3 chaos marines in close combat. Went on a real killing spree.... now talk again about marines not beeing superhuman.

Only because all other also get magical 4s in some spots of their profile means s*it! Read their dexes... they also are superhuman and badass and rule the galaxy and so on. Its a wrong interpretation of heroic-scale fluff that is meant allegorical and not literal that leads to this mess.

Mojaco
12-09-2006, 23:38
I'm surprised this turned out to be an actual discussion. I just can't take this guy seriously...
"Trust me, ap3 weapons work against them." Brainiac.

Zander77
12-09-2006, 23:45
well......think abou this. If the game was fluff based, Dark Eldar Mandrakes would have a use, now wouldn't they?:)

synapse
12-09-2006, 23:56
i am one of the fw people who would like marines to be 5-all-round and upped to 30-40ish points. if it makes them worse, all the better (less people will play with them!) in all fairness though, im marines were to get this treatment id expect many other things - mostly monstrous creatures, greater daemons, batlesuits(?), genestealers and many other creatures also being increased to match their fluff. even eldar, imho, deserve higher I and Ld than they have. but thats just me :)

i love marines and every army ive made has been fluff-influenced with gamplay being last in mylist of priorities, but thena gain not everyone is as stupid as i am! my latest army consists of models that have had their legs extended and with every model gifted with a black templar robed body. They are very knightly with purity seals,aspergillums, censers, relics etc throughout the army. its also sh** on the battlefield, but i dont care!

To me, space marines (amongst other things) are what make 40k 40k. ask anyone what the iconic gw image is and most would probably say space marines and their big old shoulders. This may not mean people like them but it means people recognise them

VetSgtNamaan
13-09-2006, 00:06
Well people have the same hate on for space marines probably for the same reason most marine players I know utterly hate Ultramarines. They are everywhere and pretty much on every box of spacemarines you will see the smurfs. I would have to say you think playing space marines are boring try necrons or tau.

Tau: I move out then fire 30 million shots then jump away back so you can not see me.
SM: Okay I move.
Tau:I move out then fire 30 million shots then jump away back so you can not see me.
SM: Okay I move some more
TAU:I move out then fire 30 million shots then jump away back so you can not see me.


Any army is ripe for abuse just since Space marines are a more forgiving army then most it tends to be the starting army for many people.

RampagingRavener
13-09-2006, 00:15
I would have to say you think playing space marines are boring try necrons or tau.

Lets not run the risk of turning this into a ZOMG THIS ARMY SUCKS flamestorm, huh?

The general reason Marines get bad press from many gamers is simply that because they sell lots, GW favours them so they can make more money. Therefore, other races have their codexes and such pushed back in favour of more Marine releases, and non-Marine players often get a little ticked off to see new Marine products rolled out while they've been waiting many years for a new codex, or even new models.

Personally, (and this is from a DE/Ork player who's going to be waiting a long time for a new codex), its never bothered me at all, so meh.

athamas
13-09-2006, 00:16
almost right VetSgtNamaan



Tau: I move out then fire 30 million shots kill 3 guys then jump away back so you can not see me.
SM: Okay I move.
Tau:I move out then fire 30 million shots kill 3 guys then jump away back so you can not see me.
SM: Okay I move some more
TAU:I move out then fire 30 million shots kill 3 guys then jump away back so you can not see me.
SM: Okay I move some more
TAU:I move out then fire 30 million shots kill 3 guys then jump away back so you can not see me.
SM: Okay I move, i charge you you die a horrible death in CC...

only poorly designed armies suffer against tau, any SM player worth jack will take a wirlwind if he knows he is facing them.. and if its a tourney, your army should have balance..

Lu Bu
13-09-2006, 00:23
Ohh ya marine bashing... Oh you are not bashing them.. Oh well every army has there fun points. necrons get the most hate in this department. But its not about that. Its if you have fun playing them. Ask anyone that plays any army if they like there army. You know what they will say...Yes. I personally don’t like world eaters. I think they are boring. But a world eater will tell you that they are awesome. "There axes dont allow more that a 4+.." So they enjoy there army. I have one last thing to say Marines Su** This message has been deleted for its rude slander. All Hail the Emperor.

Nabeshin1106
13-09-2006, 01:06
My reason for not liking marines is that I'm one of 2 people in my area that don't use marines on an almost all the time basis. I do have a Space Puppy army, but I rarely ever use them, i use my 'Nids, because it adds variety to the area. My friend uses Necrons and Orks, and rarely his DA for the same reason. Everyone else uses just Marines. It's very boring playing against the same thing week after week. As for the marine releases delaying others, I don't really care, since the two armies i care most for (Tyranids and Tau) are already 4th edition.

Killgore
13-09-2006, 01:11
I have just noticed, people on here want space marines to get worse, me and my mates think that the super humaness of a space marine has gone, and think that all their stats (apart from armour save, i hardly ever fail them as it is!) should increase by 1. that means, strength 5, toughness 5, bs 5, and everything.



exactly whats wrong with spacemarines and 40k in general

to many armys with 3+ save and strength and tougthness 4!

its boring, at least Eldar and Tau are differnt in that they have a mix of armor saves in their army and a variety of weapons

Drogmir
13-09-2006, 01:16
Well I like Space Marines. Alot people hate them because they are filled with the so called "noobs" If you can use them properly then you have an army. But everyone always bashes me because I use Ultramarines. So what if I have Ultramarines! I LIKE THEM! You don't have to say they suck... pricks.

But anyway if you always want you could always have a necron supporting army to beat the crap out of all those people who mocked you

whiteshields1830
13-09-2006, 01:20
I havent read the whole thread, but reading the opening post about says it all. This is one of those 'omg, space marines are meant to be roxor!!1!1!' threads. Deal with it man, its just a bloody game... who cares if eldar beat you, its just a blooming game.

space marines are fine as is, and tbh, i think they already had enough attention and good-stuff from what GWs been doing with them. Space marines are the best basic unit any army can get (although i concure to say that kroot and necrons are pretty good). But that doesnt matter. As you can tell i hate imperial gamers to the brim, so i am a tad bias.

As for reasons not liking sm is that they are marked the 'glory boys' by GW and are seriously overated by GWs obviously propaganda with them. Another thing is that everytime i go to GW to get a model/army update, theres always 12 yr olds running around and screaming in their sugar-high ways, "omg, my space marines will pwn your space marines", with paintjobs so bad that its obvious they just dipped them in paint (i mean why spend $50 and paint/built them in 1 hr)

(/rant)

Cap'n Umgrotz
13-09-2006, 02:06
What an amusing thread...
I'm tempted to do one for each race.
I really think some sort of quality control on the Black Library books would be in order to stop this...

Maximus_Prime
13-09-2006, 02:26
no,no,no,no space marines are fine as is
they have stats that I think match the fluff accordingly. Tough, but not too tough...except for terminators....
the only change for SMs I'd be fine with is terminators should be T5....
of course now I need to get the Flameshield(tm) as I know I'll be yelled at

n00bLord
13-09-2006, 02:27
Meh marines are fine as is. But when everything starts to rival their stats it makes them appear weak, so what? Its mainly asscannon armies that people hate and the little 11 year olds running rampant with them. If marines get better than my Fex should have all 10s running across his stats, and the save should be a 2+

UnRiggable
13-09-2006, 02:34
they are fine, they've been the standard for playtesting all these years and i HATE discussions about game/fluff connections. they are really strong, eespecially when their guns can take down tanks (if well positioned and lucky...)

insectum7
13-09-2006, 02:38
I like MY marines, I can't ******* stand Blood Angels and Space Wolves.

It's true, there are a few too many marine armies out there, luckily, I happen to be the only marine army in my group. When some OTHER marine player with a codex grey army came around I had to fight for my turf dammmit!:)

I do venture out and play other armies from time to time, but the Space Marines are where my heart lies. Recently, for the sake of the fluff, I've been taking the doctrine 'trust your battle-brothers' and frag grenades on all my squads, so each guy is a bit better with Counter-Attack and True-Grit, and my basic marine is now 19 points a guy. If you want more powerfull marines, there are many ways to do it with the chapter traits system. You can easily get tactical squads that cost 250-300 points. I reccomend it to those who want to get more out of their basic troops.

Cap'n Umgrotz
13-09-2006, 02:52
Insectum7, I applaud your sentiment and logic, but this is a guy who wants marines to win, all the time.
Reason is not thy friend here I'm afriad.

Toppan
13-09-2006, 04:49
ok...its rediculous...even pointless to carry on these conversations

so i will anyway ;)

so...i hate space marines out of jealousy mostly. the other reason is that EVERYONE plays them. in every game i play, its either me vs. marines or me vs. a marine equivalent. now toppan, why are you jealous?

in my (and others) opinions, im playing the hardest army with the hardest variant (feral orks). at least in my opinion. before you begin complaining about your marines being underpowered, let me tell you something about my army.
-no invulnerable saves AT ALL
-4+ is probably the only save ill be getting
-the regular ork complaints (footslogger disease mostly)
-plus, my troops have a tendency to go insane and either pin themselves, retreat (sometimes off the table on turn 1!) or kill themselves.

what do you marines have?
-invulnerable saves omg
-near guarunteed hits
-3+ saves out the ass
-toughest tanks in the game
-plenty of heavy weaponry

so toppan, are you just complaining about marines? maybe. but my main point is you mad dog. look at other armies that have to actually hug cover, follow special rules that hinder performance, and have cruddy saves. maybe if you made some sort of logical argument, youd get far better responses.

Seth the Dark
13-09-2006, 05:57
I can't really complain about Space marines. Its just all of the complaining that other people do is what I don't like.

Hellebore
13-09-2006, 05:57
I love space marines.

I've got 4000 pts of space wolves, 2500pts of Salamanders, 1000pts of Blood Angels.

What I DON'T like, is when someone tells me a space marines MEAT is tougher than anything elses.

MEAT is MEAT. Space marines, as I like to say, AREN'T made of Primarchtanium, they are flesh and blood.

An unarmoured space marine shot in the head with a lasgun would probably die (maybe a little bit less likely than a normal human) because the head is made of meat, brains, and ceramic infused bone. And a lasgun is a deadly weapon.

Most of a space marines power comes from the tank they wear for armour.

Imagine if space marines wore flak armour, do you really think they would survive very long with out ceramite and adamantium between them and the lasbolts/shuirken wizzing toward them?

Hellebore

cailus
13-09-2006, 06:07
almost right VetSgtNamaan



Tau: I move out then fire 30 million shots kill 3 guys then jump away back so you can not see me.
SM: Okay I move.
Tau:I move out then fire 30 million shots kill 3 guys then jump away back so you can not see me.
SM: Okay I move some more
TAU:I move out then fire 30 million shots kill 3 guys then jump away back so you can not see me.
SM: Okay I move some more
TAU:I move out then fire 30 million shots kill 3 guys then jump away back so you can not see me.


This is why I stopped playing Tau and restarted Orks. Tau are too bloody efficient.


SM: Okay I move, i charge you you die a horrible death in CC...

This happened very, very, very rarely.

Drogmir
13-09-2006, 06:43
ok...its rediculous...even pointless to carry on these conversations

so i will anyway ;)

so...i hate space marines out of jealousy mostly. the other reason is that EVERYONE plays them. in every game i play, its either me vs. marines or me vs. a marine equivalent. now toppan, why are you jealous?

in my (and others) opinions, im playing the hardest army with the hardest variant (feral orks). at least in my opinion. before you begin complaining about your marines being underpowered, let me tell you something about my army.
-no invulnerable saves AT ALL
-4+ is probably the only save ill be getting
-the regular ork complaints (footslogger disease mostly)
-plus, my troops have a tendency to go insane and either pin themselves, retreat (sometimes off the table on turn 1!) or kill themselves.

what do you marines have?
-invulnerable saves omg
-near guarunteed hits
-3+ saves out the ass
-toughest tanks in the game
-plenty of heavy weaponry

so toppan, are you just complaining about marines? maybe. but my main point is you mad dog. look at other armies that have to actually hug cover, follow special rules that hinder performance, and have cruddy saves. maybe if you made some sort of logical argument, youd get far better responses.


Well you don't get invulnerable saves with power armour. Only Termy. Even then it's a 5+. Very low survival chance

azimaith
13-09-2006, 07:16
When I use my Tyranid swarm against marines, I have a hard enough time killing normal marines. Boosting their stats is unecessary in my eyes. And like some other people have said, rules are not based on fluff. Otherwise, every army would always win (not that that would be possible) since every codex is filled entirely with fluff describing victories.
My tyranid codex talks about my army being whipped by ultramarines, led around by the nose by deathwatch kill teams who go capture genestealers, and exterminatused as they eat planets like Tyranids can't pull orbital superiority.

What is true however, is that fluff and gameplay should not necessarily meet. Marines are underpriced as is (they should be about 16-17 because of ATSKNF among other things) and they tend to get the best of everything each time their codex comes out.

Another major source of marine hate is that some codex's like Orks, Necrons, and Eldar, were delayed over and over again for yet another rehashed marine codex. Its gotten so bad that theres a marine codex coming out between each xenos codex and they are still backlogged till 2009. Maybe if GW shared some of the dedication, time, effort, and space in white dwarf they give to marines with other races people wouldn't hate them so much.

And then theres my personal dislike of them. They just reek of silly "I am the uberest special forces elite superhero cyborg savior of the universe!" stupidity rampant in Sci-Fi today. Everyone wants to be a bloody spartan.

The fact that marine codex's come out for marines who are practically identical to one another save one or two things is irritating to say the least, when it could all be doctrine style made with a single publishing.

Dvalin
13-09-2006, 07:24
I play Tau in a store environment dominated to the extremes with MEQs, predominantly Space Marines. Oftentimes, it's had me loathing the game.

Why? Because they're so bloody boring to play against -- highly effective by virtue of their rules, and also highly predictable. The moment you see the army on the field, you can about predict what's going to happen.

"Apothecary clump? Right-o. I'll whittle away a guy here or there, but your impenetrable wall of marines will survive and the assault cannons will do what they usually do."
"Oh. Look. Drop pods. I guess I may as well hug the edge of the board and hope you get unlucky, because I can't do a single thing else without dooming myself."
"Shocking! Six man las-plas?"
"Assault cannons and venerable dreadnaughts! Oh deary me. What ever am I to do."
"Oh. You made all of your morale checks. I'm shocked. OH! Look! You finally failed one! Oh. You ran back 6 inches and it doesn't matter at all. Oh well. Oh, bloody hell! One of my squads took a casualty and rocketed off the board!"
"Two marines are in base to base with this squad? Well, maybe if I'm lucky half of what was a full squad of riflemen will survive!"

Anyway. :P

To summarize my contentions with marines:
--A universal 3+ armour save is insanely powerful -- either it's negated entirely, or the vast majority of fire is absorbed; a 4+ save, by comparison, is half-way durable against small arms, but often means nothing. a 5+? Seriously here. Armor is 3+ or bust, basically.
--Morale means nothing. There's no ebb and flow of battle; there's just constant meat-grinding until the marines die.
--The cost of your average marine is excessively low, especially considering the low cost of special weapons; consider the cost of other armies' basic troop unit.
--Drop pods are an insanely good option, all the more considering that it negates the relatively low speed of most Marine armies and delivers any and all units safely to rapid-fire range with no chance to counter.
--A single major Marine chapter will have more fluff centered on it than some entire product lines -- and they're often given more releases than those other product lines. Consider the size and depth of the Black Templar release compared to the recent Tau codex; consider the probable size of the Dark Angels release compared to it as well. And how long have the Eldar and Orks been waiting? They'll get major releases soon -- but gods know when they'll get their next after that. But Marines? Once a year, if not more often! And this is going to spread to the Chaos Marines too, now!
--Fanboys griping about how Marines aren't powerful enough. If you want to respect fluff, make them more powerful, sure -- but dear god, increase the points cost as well! A -lot,- at that.
--Marine infantry is honestly more survivable than tanks. Seriously. How much fire will it take to destroy a Land Raider? Get in a few meltas and it's dead, right? Alrighty. What about the fifteen space marines that cost the same amount? So. With Eldar, 11 starcannons? Plasma rifles -- 12 to 14 if you're in rapid fire range with a BS4 unit?

Anyway. :p

Also; describing the bolter as a rapid-firing RPG is a marked misrepresentation. In the 3rd Ed main book, bolters are noted as being .75 cal (19mm, which is to say slightly lighter than the lightest autocannons, which nowadays are mostly 25mm to 40mm) -- definitely large for small arms, but small by comparison with heavy weapons. Furthermore, the shell is probably more similar to a gyrojet round (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrojet) with a contact explosive tip as opposed to a proper RPG (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_propelled_grenade). Further, if you look at the bolters marine models carry, it looks like their clips have a capacity of perhaps 15 rounds -- not enough to support rapid fire without continual replacement of clips, and rapid consumption of all ammo in a protracted firefight. In all likelihood, the rounds are fired single-shot, even if the weapon has the capability of firing bursts or full auto. Most modern autocannons (which a bolter's size is more comparable to than small arms, though it's definitely on the light size) have a significantly higher rate of fire, and presumably heavier shells.

Griffin
13-09-2006, 08:35
If you want fives across the board, Play Iyanden Craftworld with Enhance. You get your 3+ save.

Goq Gar
13-09-2006, 08:41
I think its just how dificult they are to kill.

3+. its mean. but equal

McGonigle
13-09-2006, 08:41
No joke. we read aboutsoace marines taking out thirty or forty people before tthey go out, of smashing thorugh brick walls. Of destroying a tank with two frag grenades (of that bit i don't get, but then he's ragnar black mane) and i play IG, a lot of the time against SM, and the IG always seem to atek them out, wether by shooting or in close combat. and raising the points to 40?!?!? are you crazy? 40 is just stupid. Allthough i think it is just jealousy of people not being able to take them otu :P

Space marines can take out 30 to 40 people before dying. 4 Marines and some Wolves tore though the entire infantry of my guard army, 60 odd models in one game. Yet that doesn't mean every marine is that good. Yet few stories tend to focus on that terminator squad that managed to get slaughtered in close combat by fire warriors, or brother Calis squad that got destroyed by artillery. Not really the stuff of Legends and not really what gets published in either world.
Oh and destroying tanks with a similar style of Grenades historically was performed by human soliders in WW2 I believe. It was a hot day and the top hatchs were open. Another possiblity that is too rare to be put into most wargames

As for the whole Superhuman thing contary to popular believe the average man is
man: WS:2 BS:2 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:3 A:1 Ld: 5
That is what Spacemarines are being created from, not to mention that most of the 18 stages are useless in a wargame unless you want to unnessecarily complicate things
As for 40 points being crazy you would be looking in that region they are certainly far superior to Ogyrns who are round 27 points (Purposefully being inexact figure)

As for the abundance of AP3 weaponry making killing marines easy. That is because there is an abundance of marines my Guard have to date faced 1 eldar force, 2 Tyranid forces, and around 23 space marine forces. Guess what they are predominately equipped to fight? With less marines the abundace of Marine killing weapons would fall as they are less useful against Orks etc. That is ironically the reason most people dislike marines.

Mojaco
13-09-2006, 08:43
I actually have most armies and played the others, and I think marines are actualyl the most fun to play with. Not shooty, not assaulty, but somewhere in between.
When I play IG for instance, my movement phase is pathetic. When I play Tyranids, I don't shoot worth crap. I like a little variety and unexpectedness. A marine squad can shoot and assault equally good, so you never really know what they're up to. Plus theyve got a unit for every playstyle. I know that some people hate that last part especially, but I suppose that's jealousy.

Although I have to say I have very high hopes of Eldar becoming exactly that same playstyle, which would bump it to my favorite army.

Jedi152
13-09-2006, 08:46
Call me crazy, but i associate space marines with kids (easy to paint, see? and the fact that they are 'teh kewl!!!!!!!') and gamers with no imagination.

It's probably false, but that's how i see it.

Tensor
13-09-2006, 09:13
I dont hate space marines. I think they are a very interesting concept. I dislike that they are very popular. They should eb the elite of the elite - the special forces of the special forces.

To try and put it in scale, if you took all the current armies of Earth, and said - these are the imperial guard regiments of the galaxy, Earth would might have one space marine. Maybe. Probably not. They are meant to be but a few in a galaxy of countless billions. They are used sparingly and then for specific tasks - not for sitting on a battlefield and exchanging pot-shots with any old xenos.

However, in GW land, they are the most popular army going, by a long way. There are reaosns why this is the case, btu it still irks. I would nto be suprised if there are more marine models in existance than there are meant to be marines in the whole 40k universe.

bratbag
13-09-2006, 09:32
I don't hate spacemarines per-say, what I hate is your average Space Marine gamer, as personified by the OP.

Don't get me wrong there are some fun, imaginative, mature Marine gamers. My favourite opponent uses a Dark Angels list pimped out with super mobile 10 man tac squads supported by (chaplain free) Assault squads and not an assault cannon in sight.His cries of 'FOR THE EMPEROR' as he charges me almost drowns out my chanting of 'orks orks orks orks orks orks orks orks'. I rekon itz coz dey is green :D .

The vast majority, in my unfortunate experiance, are however just little marine fanboys who start bitchin' about how marines on the tabletop don't match the fluff when my 'crappy' Orks out-manouver and out-fight them.

Point for point, compared to the basic troops of all the other races, given their stats, armour, equipment and upgrade options marines are actually under-costed.They should by all rights be 16 or 17 pts a man.It irritates me, but Marines DO make a damn good entry point into the hobby for young games, and in 5 years time when they give up marines and start using a real army like orks :p at least they will have loads of marine gubbinz for konversions.

But i digress. Marines certaintly do not need a statline improvement.

Asq_Dak
13-09-2006, 09:42
Not when you consider the "scale" of the game.

What does a model represent on the table? Why is it actually very hard to see 10 marine models fitting in a rhino? For a start they are not on the same model scale. I think tanks are 75% the scale of troops in general.

But more importantly, a single space marine model may well represent a SINGLE space marine, where as an imperial guard model may represent 10 or more guardsmen.

If you really want your marines to be epic, think of them in that way. Then if you kill 5 models to your 1 model, it will be like each marine killing 50 opponents!

At the end of it all, remember it is a wargame and the models predominantly represent positioning and capabilities, not necessarily the actual postion each person would take on the field.

Stingray_tm
13-09-2006, 10:14
Well you don't get invulnerable saves with power armour. Only Termy. Even then it's a 5+. Very low survival chance

You think a 5+ invulnerable-save results in a low survival chance? Try a 6+ armor save for 75% of your models... (Tyranids)

RampagingRavener
13-09-2006, 10:21
if marines need anything, ITS TO LOSE A FRIKEN CAMPAIGN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They lost EoT. Overall, it was a Minor win for Chaos, if I'm remembering correctly.

Atherakhia
13-09-2006, 10:31
how i see it, tho, is don't engage marines in combat. let them come to you -- each army has at least one rapid fire weapon as standard (with the exception of the tyranids, but they have assault 2 weapons), so as soon as you are in range stand still and shoot them to buggery. Take eldar (or dark eldar) for example -- they both get 2 shots within 12 inches PER MODEL. Say a squad of 16 warriors or guardians, that's 32 shots per squad, and say there was 3 squads. That's a storming total of 96 shots per turn. Not to mention other squads and/or heavy weapons systems. So what if the AP of a Shuriken/Splinter Rifle is 5? With that many shots you'll be mowing marines down left right and centre.
This is why I don't equip eldar (either type) with many heavy weapons. Maybe have a shuriken/splinter cannon somewhere, or a scatter laser (in the case of CWE). The idea is to get in as many shots as possible, so then the assault squads can charge forwards and mop up the remaining members.

It's not difficult really, and EVERY army can be equipped to do it.

And this is especially easy to do with Dark Angels ;)

cailus
13-09-2006, 10:38
You make some funny assumptions. The first one is that you expect you will not lose models on the way in. In fact given Marine shooting you will lose squads on the way in.

Remember that your Guardians are T3 with a 5+ save. The Marine is going to sooner kill your Guardian/Warrior then you are going to kill the Marines.

And bolter Marines are cheap and can be fielded in relatively large numbers (but then I am a proponent of 10 man tactical squads).

Hellebore
13-09-2006, 10:46
They lost EoT. Overall, it was a Minor win for Chaos, if I'm remembering correctly.

True.
Of course I'm sure you know who the main warriors of chaos are....


Hellebore

Nehcrum
13-09-2006, 13:35
how i see it, tho, is don't engage marines in combat. let them come to you -- each army has at least one rapid fire weapon as standard (with the exception of the tyranids, but they have assault 2 weapons), so as soon as you are in range stand still and shoot them to buggery. Take eldar (or dark eldar) for example -- they both get 2 shots within 12 inches PER MODEL. Say a squad of 16 warriors or guardians, that's 32 shots per squad, and say there was 3 squads. That's a storming total of 96 shots per turn. Not to mention other squads and/or heavy weapons systems. So what if the AP of a Shuriken/Splinter Rifle is 5? With that many shots you'll be mowing marines down left right and centre.
This is why I don't equip eldar (either type) with many heavy weapons. Maybe have a shuriken/splinter cannon somewhere, or a scatter laser (in the case of CWE). The idea is to get in as many shots as possible, so then the assault squads can charge forwards and mop up the remaining members.

It's not difficult really, and EVERY army can be equipped to do it.

And this is especially easy to do with Dark Angels ;)
Huh? What are you talking about?

Trying to defeat marines with basic rapid-fire weapons is doomed to fail.
Not only will marines shoot better or equal to you, their weapons are also better or equal (exception for Tau, but then they hit less than marines).

The one who moves forward first into the 12" range will be the one that gets to double-tap with rapid-fire guns, so if you are just standing still, the marines will be the first to get to shoot twice (of course, if they are moving, you'll get a single shot at them every round until they reach 12").

And moving forward like that is suicide for Eldar, Dark Eldar and IG, since them with their 5+ save will be mowed down by bolters rapid-firing, if they leave cover.

Also, as soon as the 12" range is reached, there will generally just be a turn of rapid-firing, since marines will assault, since they will cream IG and Dark Eldar with little trouble. Eldar guardians will also get smashed, and only CC aspect warriors will save them.

Smoking Frog
13-09-2006, 13:43
Space Marines are perfect as is.

Good at everything. Great at nothing. General all-rounders, with the ability to lean whichever way they must for whatever the mission requires. The mark of any elite force.

Why do we need this argument? Has someone been bashing Space marines again...

The only thing that really bothers anyone (it's been said a dime a dozen) is the fact that they are prolific, and that's the fault of those who chant the "SM's are coolz and toughz!" mantra.


By Lucifer's ugly pointed ****-cheeks I hate doing that...

bratbag
13-09-2006, 13:50
You should never engage marines in a close range firefight with light infantry.

Not only are Marines under-costed, but your own infantry have their 6+/5+ save included in their cost.As you won't be getting a save against the bolter, the points/effect ratio moves even further to the marines advantage.

Just to give you an idea.

A guardsman has aprox a 10% chance of killing a marine within 12"
A Marine has approx a 72% chance to kill a guardsman within 12"

The marine is over 7 times more effective than a guardsman, but only costs 2.5 times more.This is NOT a good points trade off.

You can off-set this by using cover, but now your relying on the terrain while your opponent is not.This makes your actions predictable and thusly counterable. Even still, the marine is still 4.3 times more effective than the guardsman assuming a 5+ cover save. 4+ cover reduces this to being 3.5 times more effective....still the points do not balance in your favour.

No, engaging marines in a firefight with light infantry is a REALLY bad way to play.

Now charging marines with light infantry armed with choppas....thats a different matter :evilgrin:

Atherakhia
13-09-2006, 15:16
you guys have a point, looking back at what i said it is kinda silly LOL

Kriegsherr
13-09-2006, 15:58
Well people have the same hate on for space marines probably for the same reason most marine players I know utterly hate Ultramarines. They are everywhere and pretty much on every box of spacemarines you will see the smurfs. I would have to say you think playing space marines are boring try necrons or tau.

[snipped]

Any army is ripe for abuse just since Space marines are a more forgiving army then most it tends to be the starting army for many people.

there are very interesting mobile, short ranged tau armies not utilizing the jetpack-loophole.
For example using the much underused carbine in all FW squads to get a really cool anti-IG cityfight army.

But most tau player use either the boring static gunline or the cheap jetpack-trick, I know....

Therefore, its not the army thats boring. Its the players...

vlorlich
13-09-2006, 16:27
Space ****** are an easy army to pick up and play. They are the golden child of GW and so get better treatment. Just how it goes.

I can't blame GW though... Space ***** stuff sells well for them. You have to cater to them because they make you money.

Best advice I can offer people is... Play the army you want to and have fun.

oh... and Kill as many Space ****** as you can. :D

electricblooz
13-09-2006, 16:41
Space Marines are perfect as is.

Why do we need this argument? Has someone been bashing Space marines again...

By Lucifer's ugly pointed ****-cheeks I hate doing that...

When can you go a day without somebody bashing marines around here? :eyebrows:


I get so sick and tired of every other post saying "Marines are undercosted." "Marines get all the best toys," They should ban or limit Marines in campaigns so fewer people will play them," "GW always fixes the campaigns so Marines win," "They should do a campaign where Abbadon invades Earth and kills the Emperor and then a Bloodthrister eats everyone - that would be roXXor," "They should do way with all MEQ armies and only have Eldar and Orks cause that would be cool," and so forth.

Chainsworded Codpiece
13-09-2006, 17:46
When can you go a day without somebody bashing marines around here? :eyebrows:
I get so sick and tired of every other post saying "Marines are undercosted." "Marines get all the best toys," They should ban or limit Marines in campaigns so fewer people will play them," "GW always fixes the campaigns so Marines win," "They should do way with all MEQ armies and only have Eldar and Orks cause that would be cool," and so forth.

Yeah, life's tough sometimes. People having opinions and all that:)

I think a relatively good spread of these previous postings give the various reasons people have for "bashing" Marines.

Some are well-thought-out. Some are personal dislike without much more than emotional force. Either way, it's not like marines are going away, nor will their little Astartes hearts be broken by Joe Poster "bashing" them.

So take heart.

By the way, much that is construed "bashing" is often the attempt by Crusty Old Old F@kks (COOFs) such myself trying to find a way to keep the Astartes interesting. Remember, some of us have been Marine fans since before some youngbloods here were fetuses. We don't "hate" the Marines.

We have become disenchanted with a force of beings who, far from retaining their initial grim awesomeness, have been turned into parodic Palladium Games-versions of themselves in misguided efforts keep them appealing.

This is largely in the fluff, you understand. I've no grounds in general to complain about the rules, I leave that to others.

But the fluff, aside from the works of a few greats, IMHO, is dumb, and tends far more to high-flown power-fantasy crap than to the original feel.

It's the difference between Negative Approach's "Lead Song"...

...versus some sh!tty power-rock anthem by Manowar or some such.

Now, never let it be said that macho power rock doesn't have it's place. But some of us would like to see some thing OTHER than that. Just like we can stand a couple issues of "Spawn"...but would really prefer to return to comics (or books) that are actually scary, adult, and gripping, rather than pretending to be.

OK, I'm pushing these multiple analogies way too far. Does this make any sense to you guys?

Daemon King, you are, I judge by your writing, very young. Thus, I understand your passion.

PS- Also, I wish to address the above poster. Sir Electricblooz, I assure you, I've NO INTEREST in Abbadon's Gazillionth Black Crusade whoopin' the Imperium's ass. Personally, I find the cheesiness-standard to which Chaos has been remade in people's minds FAR more difficult to deal with than any cheese issue I have with the ol' "Spacer'inos".

So, if I chide the Marine player on occasion, it is not out partisanship for some "other side". Remember, we Alpha Legionnaires are Astartes too:)

bratbag
13-09-2006, 18:21
I get so sick and tired of every other post saying "Marines are undercosted


Tough.

Marines are undercosted. But thats ok, Im fine with 40k having a 'starter' army that is easy to use. New gamers = the hobbys lifeblood.Just don't expect any respect for winning with them :p

LarryS
13-09-2006, 18:37
Ok - I'm going to skip the "marines are cheese" and "marines are undercosted" arguments...

My only gripe w/ marines is the standard "everyone has them". They are the starter army, dominate the books, artwork, computer games, etc...They are a good starter army for new players, I just wish more people were quicker to branch out into different armies once they are up to speed w/ the rules.

It would be nice to build an army list true to a race's character w/o having to base it around the units performance vs. marines. Troop/weapon effectiveness against T4 3+armor seems to be the standard measure to have a competitive force.

Richgo22
13-09-2006, 18:41
I would say, double all weapons ranges at 40K and give all shooting weapons 1 point more strengh, and everything would be fine.

Daemon king Mad Dog
13-09-2006, 19:02
My only gripe w/ marines is the standard "everyone has them".

me and my mates agree :)

Daemon king Mad Dog
13-09-2006, 19:08
You should never engage marines in a close range firefight with light infantry.

Not only are Marines under-costed, but your own infantry have their 6+/5+ save included in their cost.As you won't be getting a save against the bolter, the points/effect ratio moves even further to the marines advantage.

Just to give you an idea.

A guardsman has aprox a 10% chance of killing a marine within 12"
A Marine has approx a 72% chance to kill a guardsman within 12"

The marine is over 7 times more effective than a guardsman, but only costs 2.5 times more.This is NOT a good points trade off.

You can off-set this by using cover, but now your relying on the terrain while your opponent is not.This makes your actions predictable and thusly counterable. Even still, the marine is still 4.3 times more effective than the guardsman assuming a 5+ cover save. 4+ cover reduces this to being 3.5 times more effective....still the points do not balance in your favour.

No, engaging marines in a firefight with light infantry is a REALLY bad way to play.

Now charging marines with light infantry armed with choppas....thats a different matter :evilgrin:


I ahve actually tried a guard army v. a marine army of 1,500 points. Inalmost every situation the large numbers of Guardsmen beat the skill fot he marines. The guardsmen advanced OUT of cover useing clever skill to otu wit the dumb (releativly new) space marine player :) it is mostly newish players that play with marines, so you just have to think. Send a unit where it's needed.

Kahadras
13-09-2006, 19:26
Marines are undercosted. But thats ok, Im fine with 40k having a 'starter' army that is easy to use. New gamers = the hobbys lifeblood.Just don't expect any respect for winning with them

Lol. That's quite funny. If anything Marines are now much harder to win with nowadays due to the rise and rise of the anti MEq armies with their missile launchers, plasma guns, lazcannon, starcannon etc.

And what with this whole 'don't expect any respect' cr*p? Any newbie that can beat me without resorting to absolute cheesefest armies (Iron warriors 4 pie plates with min maxed laz/plas, Eldar all Starcannon etc) will get kudos from me.

For me Marines are fine as they are at the present moment. They don't need a points increase OR stat increases IMHO.

Kahadras

RampagingRavener
13-09-2006, 20:09
I would say, double all weapons ranges at 40K and give all shooting weapons 1 point more strengh, and everything would be fine.

Unless you play Orks. Or Tyranids. Or Dark Eldar. Or regular Eldar. Or anything that doesn't have a 4+ save to hide behind the sudden maelstrom of "hit you across the board, wound you on a 2+ and ignore your armour" small-arms fire to rattle out and rip your army to bits before you can do anything.

BrainFireBob
13-09-2006, 20:15
I'm actually with you, Kahadras. I'm of the growing opinion it's this anti-Marine slant amongst many veteran players that's the true cause of powergaming being on the increase amongst newer gamers, not the tournament scene. They're encouraged to play Marines, and with the anti-Marine bias, they're shown NO mercy.

Llothlian
13-09-2006, 21:00
I hate Space Marines, and my largest army is Space Marines... :P

EDIT: Actually, I hate ULTRAMARINES, not all Space Marines. The reason people don't like Marines is because they take all the lime light, leaving very little time for the armies which are actually cool (SoB, Eldar, Tryanids etc).

electricblooz
13-09-2006, 21:14
Tough.

Marines are undercosted. But thats ok, Im fine with 40k having a 'starter' army that is easy to use. New gamers = the hobbys lifeblood.Just don't expect any respect for winning with them :p

Wow - that's a useful argument - I suppose I should respect Seer Council/Starcannon Army of Doom or IW OblitsRUs or any of the Godjira Nids armies (because these armies all clearly take such mental and tactical prowness to play).

Guess what - I'm 40 years old; I've been playing off and on since Rogue Trader was published. I play marines because they're more interesting than space pansies, killer bugs, or the japamaniacs. For the vast majority of that time, vanilla marine players like myself (you know - people who like to be creative with their armies rather than following some cookie-cutter "chapter of the month") had to settle for extremely underperforming armies (since the marine codex was always released first and then crushed by codex-creep). Now, marine players finally have a codex that gives them some ability to do nifty things with their armies and listening to all the elitist xenos snobs whinging about is getting old. Especially when there's absolutely ZERO evidence that the new marine codex has in anyway unbalanced the environment.



By the way, much that is construed "bashing" is often the attempt by Crusty Old Old F@kks (COOFs) such myself trying to find a way to keep the Astartes interesting. Remember, some of us have been Marine fans since before some youngbloods here were fetuses. We don't "hate" the Marines.


:D Please realize that in terms in "Crusty-ness" I definitely have a substantial portion of this message board beat. In fact, if you measure my crusty-ness by the number of times I have stripped and re-painted my Harlequin boxset miniatures (first GW purchase), I probably have them beat by an order of magnitude. (But that's just because I can never quite get my harlies up to the standard that I have for my Marines, IG, or Sisters).

Seriously though - you can argue about fluff all day, in the end 40k is not a fluff driven game like L5R or some of the "collectible" games. Furthermore, most of the "fluff" comments I see are really thinnly veiled "shots" at Marines (and, by extension, Imperial armies in general). Take, for instance, my comment about "Abbadon's Gazillionth Black Crusade " (good name BTW), most post I read advocating such are really advocating seriously newtering the Imperial armies "because it would really cool if it were harder for them to win - all gothicy, w00t!" Long story short - until there is some hard evidence that the marine codex has seriously deformed the environment I call bullspit on marine bashers; bullspit stands until someone proves me wrong.

Llothlian
13-09-2006, 21:27
Meh, Marines are not overpowered by any stretch of the imagination.

One one marine squad can kill, statistically, another marine squad in one turn. They are Terminators, who are a whopping 42 points each (or is it 40 in 4th?).

Witch Hunters have three units which can crush any marine squad in one turn - Archoflagalants, Repentia, Penitent Engines. They also have all manner of nasty powers and faith skills (invulnerable 3+ saves and rending on bolters... My current army is a SoB army by the way, I'm allowed to say they are powerful... if used right).

Elder get the over cheesy (but oh so tasty) 3x star cannon war walkers, who decimate 12 marines a turn statistically (another of my old armies).

Necrons just keep firing, even after you kill them.

Dark Eldar charge on turn one.

Orcs reduce everybodies armour save.

Chaos have everything in one nice package.

Guard (one of my old armies too) can do anything you want them to, except combat. But you dont need them to. When you have 20 squads on the table at once, each with a plasma gun and lascannon/autocannon/rocket launcher, backed up with loads of AP 3/2 pie plates, who needs combat? Sure, their basic weapon sucks, but if you make a 500 point termie squad take 400 saves a turn, they are going down.

So, semi-rant over, Marines are not overpowered. They have a distinted lack of anything special in the offensive area, they are just the most defensive army (except chaos, who have both).

So, if you wanna complain about somebody, go complain about your daemon bombing chaos friend, who has everything Marines have (almost), and a **** load more. They can even take the best things from a Guard army to make up for their "lack" in certain areas.

Daemon king Mad Dog
13-09-2006, 21:31
Guard (one of my old armies too) can do anything you want them to, except combat.


ever heard of warrior weapons?

it's not extremly good but they can still do a close combat army.

Llothlian
13-09-2006, 21:33
Nope, I havent heard of those... I haven't played with or against Guard since early 3rd edition. I'd still put my money on a Daemon heavy armour though against any Guard army in melee. ;)

RampagingRavener
13-09-2006, 21:39
Witch Hunters have three units which can crush any marine squad in one turn - Archoflagalants, Repentia, Penitent Engines. They also have all manner of nasty powers and faith skills (invulnerable 3+ saves and rending on bolters... My current army is a SoB army by the way, I'm allowed to say they are powerful... if used right).

Fair point.


Elder get the over cheesy (but oh so tasty) 3x star cannon war walkers, who decimate 12 marines a turn statistically (another of my old armies).

With AV10, they melt if you spit at them. And if the current rumours are to be belived, then in a couple of months you'll be looking at each WW either getting 4 or 2 twin-linked Starcannon shots, so they're getting worse.


Necrons just keep firing, even after you kill them.

And are pretty vulnerable in combat, and suffer when against large numbers of 2+ saves.


Dark Eldar charge on turn one.

Or get reduced to smoldering, ruined Raiders and pinned, bolter-bait Warriors on turn one. And a Turn One charge isn't that likely, anyway.


Orcs reduce everybodies armour save.

And get slaughtered en-masse by Assault Cannons, Whirlwinds, Bolters and Heavy Bolters.


Chaos have everything in one nice package.

That is true enough, yes.


Guard (one of my old armies too) can do anything you want them to, except combat. But you dont need them to. When you have 20 squads on the table at once, each with a plasma gun and lascannon/autocannon/rocket launcher, backed up with loads of AP 3/2 pie plates, who needs combat? Sure, their basic weapon sucks, but if you make a 500 point termie squad take 400 saves a turn, they are going down.

Once decent assault Squad in amoungst the Gaurd lines will often run though a decent portion of their army, Plasma Weapons will kill the weilder pretty regularly in a Gaurd army, and good old BS3 restricts the fact they get lots of guns.

Daemon king Mad Dog
13-09-2006, 22:11
Sharp shooters helps with that last problem (any bs 3 models re roll any 1s to hti apoart from with plasma weapons and snipers)

bratbag
13-09-2006, 22:25
Lol. That's quite funny. If anything Marines are now much harder to win with nowadays due to the rise and rise of the anti MEq armies with their missile launchers, plasma guns, lazcannon, starcannon etc.

And what with this whole 'don't expect any respect' cr*p? Any newbie that can beat me without resorting to absolute cheesefest armies (Iron warriors 4 pie plates with min maxed laz/plas, Eldar all Starcannon etc) will get kudos from me.

For me Marines are fine as they are at the present moment. They don't need a points increase OR stat increases IMHO.


So your argument for marines not being overcosted is that they die to armies designed to kill them.

Hell, my orks get slaughtered by armies that max out on whirlwinds and heavybolters....does that mean my orks get to be point for point better than anyone else....no?...didnt think so.

Anyone who glady uses a well balanced list against a tailored list should get kudos....but that is true with any army. An all-round marine force out-performs other all-round forces.



Guess what - I'm 40 years old; I've been playing off and on since Rogue Trader was published. I play marines because they're more interesting than space pansies, killer bugs, or the japamaniacs. For the vast majority of that time, vanilla marine players like myself (you know - people who like to be creative with their armies rather than following some cookie-cutter "chapter of the month") had to settle for extremely underperforming armies (since the marine codex was always released first and then crushed by codex-creep). Now, marine players finally have a codex that gives them some ability to do nifty things with their armies and listening to all the elitist xenos snobs whinging about is getting old. Especially when there's absolutely ZERO evidence that the new marine codex has in anyway unbalanced the environment.


Good for you. Im 29 and played my first game with borrowed minatures fighting over a certain farm ;) .Now that introductions are out the way :confused:

I know exactly how underperforming your marines were for prolonged periods. The orignial marines were pathetic compared even to the save-modifier-abused marines of 2nd edition. Exactly what does that have to do with the current state of the game?Im an ork player, i feel your pain, yet if next years ork codex undercosted the basic Ork Boy i would be the first to mention it.

The new marine codex did very little to further unbalance the game.Many of its changes were needed to add diversity in marine armies.

The basic marine was undercosted back in the original crappy 3rd edition codex and is undercosted now, the new codex changes nothing.

Im really not bothered how 'old' the whinging of us elitest ork players :wtf: is getting, the basic stats are there if you care to do the maths. The basic marine is undercosted compared to every non-meq race in the game.

Even against Tau, the closest, the basic Marine is 100% better than a Firewarrior in a fire-fight, but still only costs 50% more.

No matter how much i am flamed by marine fan-boys for this next comment, when all is fair and equal (no tailored lists) a win with marines requires less tactical ability than a win with non-MEQ forces.The raw statistics are on your side.

Don't get me wrong, a win is still a win and still requires some tactical skill, but an 'elitest xenos snob' using an all-round list is fighting an uphill battle against an all rounder marine list, the same is not true in reverse.

Note- I use marines. I have an Ultramarine force that is gathering dust BECAUSE they are undercosted.A win with them is no-where near as satisfying as a win with orks.

Chainsworded Codpiece
13-09-2006, 23:32
:D Please realize that in terms in "Crusty-ness" I definitely have a substantial portion of this message board beat. In fact, if you measure my crusty-ness by the number of times I have stripped and re-painted my Harlequin boxset miniatures (first GW purchase), I probably have them beat by an order of magnitude. (But that's just because I can never quite get my harlies up to the standard that I have for my Marines, IG, or Sisters).

Excellent. Another COOF, older than myself.:) Most of what I had said, by the way, was actually aimed at the OP Daemon King Mad Dog, who had, started this whole thing with some silly assertions that titular Marine Haters were trying to take away the superhuman aspects of the Marines, and leech them of all the things that made them "cool". Which I find to be a somewhat ridiculous generalization.



Seriously though - you can argue about fluff all day, in the end 40k is not a fluff driven game like L5R or some of the "collectible" games. Furthermore, most of the "fluff" comments I see are really thinnly veiled "shots" at Marines (and, by extension, Imperial armies in general). Take, for instance, my comment about "Abbadon's Gazillionth Black Crusade " (good name BTW), most post I read advocating such are really advocating seriously newtering the Imperial armies "because it would really cool if it were harder for them to win - all gothicy, w00t!" Long story short - until there is some hard evidence that the marine codex has seriously deformed the environment I call bullspit on marine bashers; bullspit stands until someone proves me wrong.

Really? People you've met just constantly wish the Imperium couldn't fight? Why?
Yeah, I'd love the idea of the Imperium being hard-pressed to "win" against the other factions...but again, I sure don't want that to mean that the mechanics of the game are made to f@kk over the Imperium player...

...having a complete and utter victory for any "side" would be, um, boring. Fluff, crunch, or any other way one looks at it.

Kahadras
13-09-2006, 23:37
So your argument for marines not being overcosted is that they die to armies designed to kill them.



And your arguement is what? They can kill Orks and Guardsmen? Well they should be able to they cost twice as much.


Anyone who glady uses a well balanced list against a tailored list should get kudos....but that is true with any army. An all-round marine force out-performs other all-round forces.

Errr that's because Space Marines are designed to be an all round force. If you try to go for an all round Guard army it won't work as Guard should focus on their firepower. There's a difference between balance (i.e not min/maxing etc) and all round (designed for both close combat, maneuverability and firepower).

Kahadras

luchog
13-09-2006, 23:38
what my experience generally tells me is that people dont specificly hate space marines, sometimes its a jealousy for the spoilt abnoxious children that the space marines are of the 40k universe when many armies are in need of re-imaging but the marines sell the best and therefore push their way to the front of the queue. Other times it's because far too many people just go "space marines zomg cool!" which accounts for a large number of marine players, point 3 is that space marines lists are easy to customise and abuse to get an advantage over people and because they have the magical 3+ save which annoys everyone who wears double quilted toilet paper for armor.
Have i missed out anything else about space marines that people metaphorically screams abuse about them behind their backs?

Not jealousy, annoyance (the word you want is "envy" anyway), annoyance at the way that they are the darlings of the GW marketing and design machines, and the other races get the big, nobbly, unlubricated shaft. Only the Eldar get anything remotely resembling the attention that SM/Imp/CSM get; everyone else gets hosed.

Aside from that, I just find them boring and unoriginal in style, and uninteresting in design. CSM is a little better, and has some interesting units (and the demons are pretty good overall, except of the KoS), but is mostly just regular SM with spiky bitz. And their vehicles are just plain crap IMO. With the kind of design talent that GW has, are you telling me that the best they could come up with is the old "metal shoebox on tracks" M113 lameness? Nothing particularly gothic about that look.

Of course, IMO Necrons are also pretty dull, and Tau are much too "Robotech" for my tastes as well. Dark Eldar has some really good stuff, and some really ugly stuff. Seems like the only races that got some decent design work were the Orks, Eldar, and Kroot. No, I take that back, the Sisters of Battle have some pretty decent designs as well, and the Exorcist is quite striking despite the boring chassis; but overall are a bit closer to being "Female Space Marines" than I want to see.

azimaith
14-09-2006, 00:04
Meh, Marines are not overpowered by any stretch of the imagination.

One one marine squad can kill, statistically, another marine squad in one turn. They are Terminators, who are a whopping 42 points each (or is it 40 in 4th?).

So what? Destroying a squad per turn is hard against most armies.



Witch Hunters have three units which can crush any marine squad in one turn - Archoflagalants,

They only have a 4+ save (granted its Invul). I don't recall them having any special movement mode to get at you before you gun them down with heavy bolters.



Repentia,

4+ *normal* save. Just shoot them. They're a squad full of powerfists.



Penitent Engines.

How in the world do you not manage to kill a walker with no drop pod with AV 11 front armor.



They also have all manner of nasty powers and faith skills (invulnerable 3+ saves and rending on bolters... My current army is a SoB army by the way, I'm allowed to say they are powerful... if used right).

I'm sorry allowed? Playing an army doesn't necessarily mean your automatically valid on all points when talking about it. For example, you said statistically capable of wiping out a squad of marines.

All your examples here have been in a nutshell and out of real 40k scope. Assault marines, Death Companies, and Dreadnaughts are all also capable of killing squads of marines in one go.



Elder get the over cheesy (but oh so tasty) 3x star cannon war walkers, who decimate 12 marines a turn statistically (another of my old armies).

No it doesn't. It kills 7.52 marines. 18 shots, half hit, .84 wound. And this is all assuming marines don't take cover.



Necrons just keep firing, even after you kill them.

Marines are hard enough to kill, necrons don't get any special or heavy weapons capable of doing damage to marines on a squad level basis like plasmaguns.



Dark Eldar charge on turn one.

Dark Eldar don't have the armor to really deal with you after turn 1.



Orcs reduce everybodies armour save.

Are your marines all having their bolters detailed or something? Ever thought about shooting them? And they don't reduce everyons armor save, only saves better than 4+, which leaves scouts with fine armor.



Chaos have everything in one nice package.

Chaos space marines have everything in one nice little package.



Guard (one of my old armies too) can do anything you want them to, except combat. But you dont need them to. When you have 20 squads on the table at once, each with a plasma gun and lascannon/autocannon/rocket launcher, backed up with loads of AP 3/2 pie plates, who needs combat? Sure, their basic weapon sucks, but if you make a 500 point termie squad take 400 saves a turn, they are going down.

Yeah, funny how that happens if you walk out into the middle of a guard army with no cover.



So, semi-rant over, Marines are not overpowered. They have a distinted lack of anything special in the offensive area, they are just the most defensive army (except chaos, who have both).

Except death company, assault terminators, drop pods with librarians/chaplains, blood claws, ect ect.



So, if you wanna complain about somebody, go complain about your daemon bombing chaos friend, who has everything Marines have (almost), and a **** load more. They can even take the best things from a Guard army to make up for their "lack" in certain areas.
Chaos Space Marines. Note the last two words.

Your whole argument has been based on a ridiculous snowglobe style environment where terminators are fobidden to ever have LOS blocked to them, marines may never benefit from cover saves, and all marines start out with no ammunition for any of their ranged weapons. Your statistics aren't even accurate.

luchog
14-09-2006, 00:44
I'm actually with you, Kahadras. I'm of the growing opinion it's this anti-Marine slant amongst many veteran players that's the true cause of powergaming being on the increase amongst newer gamers, not the tournament scene. They're encouraged to play Marines, and with the anti-Marine bias, they're shown NO mercy.

Anti-Marine bias? Maybe a tiny minority are anti-Marine, but the vast majority of players ARE Marines. And it's almost always the Marines that are the powergamers. It's not the tournament scene, nor the non-existent anti-Marine bias, but the fact the vast majority of young newbies -- who are already prone to powergaming, regardless of the game -- start with Marines, and stick with them once they realize just how easy it is to powergame with Marines.

And to answer the other comments; yes there are cheesefest MEQ-killer armies out there. And guess what, the worst one just got a serious nerfing. No more Seer Council/Starcannon Army of Doom. So the Marines get buffed to deal with the cheese, and at the same time the cheese goes away. Yeah, that's balanced.

And there is one clear, obvious indicator that Marines as they exist now are overpowered: market domination. According to the GW stats, over 60% of all players use Imperial Space Marines as their primary army. The second most commonly played primary army is Chaos Space Marines, at 12-13%. Which means that some variant of Space Marines accounts for nearly three-quarters of all Warhammer 40k players. And they still manage to win a disproportionate number of tournaments. The only armies that can consistently challenge them are Godzilla 'Nids, IG las/plas, and Eldar SCAoD. And the Eldar no longer have their cheesy Starcannon, which leaves only the 'Nid and IG. Yes, there's still the Ork Kult of Speed, but IIRC they're no longer GT legal. The WH/SoB and DH have a few units with good stats, but **** for armour support. No one else even comes close.

An all-around SM/CSM army will consistently defeat any other all-around army.

So to sum up, Marine's aren't uber-buff because people play so many cheesey MEQ-killer armies, people don't play cheese MEQ-killer armies because Marines are so *********** hard to beat otherwise.

UnRiggable
14-09-2006, 00:54
Maybe a tiny minority are anti-Marine, but the vast majority of players ARE Marines.

Actually, SM and Chaos make up about half the total players.

luchog
14-09-2006, 01:04
Actually, SM and Chaos make up about half the total players.

Nope, they make up nearly 75%.

Warlord Kyle
14-09-2006, 03:09
I do not wish to be a marine hater, almost every game ive played in my short 40k career has been against sm but i believe they are already a bit too powerful. Already they have s4, t4,ws4,bs4, and i4 for a measly 15 points. The most wellrounded basic troop choice in the 40k universe. The 3+ save is already amazing and combined with the other stats they are already as strong and tough as they should be. This is from a newer players stand point but most sm armies ive played against just sit like rocks using their saves and shot back. You can't up the the stats just because some complain because something that can nick them in cc or can burn through their armor (let them get a taste of it:) ). Please don't hate me for my views but this is what many players i know feel, incluging sm players.

Jedi152
14-09-2006, 08:13
Anti-Marine bias? Maybe a tiny minority are anti-Marine, but the vast majority of players ARE Marines. And it's almost always the Marines that are the powergamers. It's not the tournament scene, nor the non-existent anti-Marine bias, but the fact the vast majority of young newbies -- who are already prone to powergaming, regardless of the game -- start with Marines, and stick with them once they realize just how easy it is to powergame with Marines.
Agreed 150%. Exactly the answer that i wanted to put.

I'll reckon that about 80% of this forums members have collected marines at some point in their gaming life.

Kahadras
14-09-2006, 08:35
the vast majority of young newbies -- who are already prone to powergaming, regardless of the game -- start with Marines, and stick with them once they realize just how easy it is to powergame with Marines.


Most of the newbie in our store move on to Chaos interestingly enough. Daemonbomb anybody? Kids saw how powerful a Chaos army could be made and quickly migrated across. I think there was only two people who played Marines who turned up to vets night. Hell there were more Tyranid and Necron players than Space Marine players.

Kahadras

purplehoob
14-09-2006, 09:20
Like most people I have collected Marines, so I don't hate them, however...

From my point of view most of my opponents are marines, and there tactics consist of line up gun line in the open, sit still and shoot. I don't think marines are overpowered I think bolt guns are. At this point I will say I have no problem beating marines with any of the armies I use regularly, Genestealers, Harlequins, Guard and Orks.

Marines are elite troops and are meant to appear in relativly low numbers, if you increase the points then this will come about.

I don't hate marines I hate the tactics associated with them...

AmKhaibitu
14-09-2006, 09:35
Simple answer... they're the dog soldiers of a neo-fascist regime dedicated to xenocide on a mass scale. What's to like?

You have webbed feet? BRAARK POP FOOM!

Llothlian
14-09-2006, 09:55
I'm sorry allowed?

Sarcasm obviously goes way over some peoples head.

Repentia and Penitent Engines are almost as fast as Assault Marines. Repentia carry close combat melta weapons, and power fists, all in one, and Penitent Engines do D6+1 dread attacks on the charge. Most people do not shoot Penitent Engines, as they have much more troubling things to worrying about (Exorcists being a prime example), and when they realise they need to shoot at them, its usually too late.

Jedi152
14-09-2006, 10:10
Simple answer... they're the dog soldiers of a neo-fascist regime dedicated to xenocide on a mass scale. What's to like?

You have webbed feet? BRAARK POP FOOM!
Yeah, a lot of people don't like it when you tell them their precious heroic supermen are just space-SS, carrying out the space-final solution. ;)

Kriegsherr
14-09-2006, 10:53
They don't even know, or don't want to realise, what army they are playing.... thats maybe why in all marine codices is a light version of imperial fluff, while the real ugly face only shows up in the inq codices and to some degree in the IG dex.

And thats what I have to moan about the SM dexes, apart from the a little bit off point costs and the rending ponies: The fluff is much to nice! If I decide to play imperials, then I decide to play them because of the looks.... and because of the fluff. And from a fluff perspective they fill the fascism niche, yet their supersoldiers are little pansies compared with the imperial stormtroopers from Star Wars (another space-n4zi supersoldier thingy) or the inquisitorial hit squads. While there are small hints about how insane sms really are hidden in their "mantras of hatred", the general fluff concentrates too much on the heroic side of the events. While that is a very cool way to draw parallels to the n4zis and the romans (who also made up heroic stories for insane killing sprees), it is also important to show it from a real side.

I would like the marines more if:
- The minis would look more gothic, more like knights in space
- The fluff would make them more living killing machines without a real will of their own, commanded by faceless space-n4zi officers like the assassins

UltimateNagash
14-09-2006, 10:55
If it's that easy to beat SM, how do you beat them with 'Nids?

Kriegsherr
14-09-2006, 11:01
shoot em dead or "rend-er them useless" in CC?

Seriously, nids never had a problem against SMs in my group.... maybe because of the large amount of monstrous cheese used ;)

monkey child
14-09-2006, 11:33
They don't even know, or don't want to realise, what army they are playing.... thats maybe why in all marine codices is a light version of imperial fluff, while the real ugly face only shows up in the inq codices and to some degree in the IG dex.

And thats what I have to moan about the SM dexes, apart from the a little bit off point costs and the rending ponies: The fluff is much to nice! If I decide to play imperials, then I decide to play them because of the looks.... and because of the fluff. And from a fluff perspective they fill the fascism niche, yet their supersoldiers are little pansies compared with the imperial stormtroopers from Star Wars (another space-n4zi supersoldier thingy) or the inquisitorial hit squads. While there are small hints about how insane sms really are hidden in their "mantras of hatred", the general fluff concentrates too much on the heroic side of the events. While that is a very cool way to draw parallels to the n4zis and the romans (who also made up heroic stories for insane killing sprees), it is also important to show it from a real side.

I would like the marines more if:
- The minis would look more gothic, more like knights in space
- The fluff would make them more living killing machines without a real will of their own, commanded by faceless space-n4zi officers like the assassins

I completly agree with this, to my mind marines should be portrayed as the brainwashed babby eating nutters that they are. More akin ( as some one mentioned in an old thread) to the terminator in the original film, than the captain america esque good guys their currently made ou to be.

Killgore
14-09-2006, 12:36
armies and listening to all the elitist xenos snobs whinging about is getting old. Especially when there's absolutely ZERO evidence that the new marine codex has in anyway unbalanced the environment.



Ahhhm, Assault Cannons? Drop Pods? Even more powerful Chaplains? possibility of 6 HQ choices in each army!!!!! (at great cost, but i have had 2 oponunts do it to me, one regulary) hell even the Black Templair codex has a vehicle upgrade that negates the effect of my Eldars anti tank weapon!

Even with the starcannon nerf in the new eldar codex I'm going to make a army list so powerful it'll make spacemarine players cry *goes back to painting dark reapers*.

purplehoob
14-09-2006, 13:12
Yes I am looking forward to unleashing my Eldar Harlequins legally on the much disliked Space Marine players......

This gets me the players who always whine about my Harlequins army being illegal are generally Blood Angels with the usual baal predators and 2 assault cannon terminator squads.

Hmm getting blood rage for free and being able to fire your normal weapons when my Beserkers can't do it.

The bolter god
14-09-2006, 13:42
I dont know why people dislike the powerful Space marines because they are easy to paint and to use.
I use them and i think the space marines are a great army to start with and there special rules are just as good as any fleet of foot that eldar uses due to the fact that they use that rule in their shooting phase i prefer to move 6" at a time i dont like to rush any thing and to use a rule to move extra d6 inches is a waste of a shooting phase :)

The bolter god
14-09-2006, 14:06
Can you give me some advice about the iron worriors chapter so i can improve my army tactics:)

IcedCrow
14-09-2006, 14:19
People around here dislike Space Marines simply because 9 out of 10 armies you encounter are space marines.

number6
14-09-2006, 15:01
People around here dislike Space Marines simply because 9 out of 10 armies you encounter are space marines.
And that's a good enough reason right there. Variety would be nice.
Instead, the new SM codex gave all kinds of new rules breaks to the smurfs without making them spend anything extra on it. Most egregious would have to be the new uber assault cannon. Now the 5-model termi squad with 2 assault cannons is just about the best unit in the entire game. It turns the tide of a game every time it appears. How fair -- or fun -- is that?

Hellebore
14-09-2006, 15:10
The only unit worse than a 2 assault cannon 5 man termie squad is the 3 obliterator squad - the ONLY unit in the game that can change it's weapon options during the game.

Man, what I would give to change a starcannon to a scatter laser mid-game when facing orks...

Hellebore

Indigo
14-09-2006, 15:21
I have just noticed, people on here want space marines to get worse, me and my mates think that the super humaness of a space marine has gone, and think that all their stats (apart from armour save, i hardly ever fail them as it is!) should increase by 1. that means, strength 5, toughness 5, bs 5, and everything.

And here we see one of the biggest problems with 40K, the fact that a superhuman profile is now seen as average!

As for the question asked: People hate Space Marines because there are simply too many of them (which is why the straight 4's superhuman stats are seen as 'average' now!) it makes the game less interesting.

High Marshal Trenth
14-09-2006, 15:31
Phh, I love sm's whats not to like about them? They are noble, honoralbe, trustworthy superhumans of MIGHT! Really though, their stats are fine as is. Sometimes I wonder "hey, this doesnt seem like a spacemarine from the book I just read!" but after playing IG for a bit and having to face em.......YA they be superhuman alright...when evey model chargin your sorry rear has an armor save of 3+...you learn to fear and respect em for what they do. No they dont need a point cost change and No they dont need higher stats, They are just fine as they are. SPACE MARIENS FOR EVER! FOR THE EMPEROR! FOR DORN! FOR OUR MIGHTY 3+ SAVE!

The_Patriot
14-09-2006, 16:05
I like Space Marines just fine....

the deader the better. :p

MadJackMcJack
14-09-2006, 16:18
I don't hate Marines, it's just, like others have said, there are FAR too many of them about, so much so that you just get sick playing them. I'm lucky now in that most people I play against have a good mix of armies. Hell, even played a Sisters army a few weeks ago!

And I've never actually collected a Marine army. I might in the future, but if I did, I'd use the Deathwing list. Termies appeal to my Orky side. Big, stompy, dead 'ard and well shooty. What's not to like?

luchog
14-09-2006, 18:51
Most of the newbie in our store move on to Chaos interestingly enough. Daemonbomb anybody? Kids saw how powerful a Chaos army could be made and quickly migrated across.

Which is pretty much the same thing. CSM=SM with more powergaming opportunity.


I think there was only two people who played Marines who turned up to vets night. Hell there were more Tyranid and Necron players than Space Marine players.
There is variation, of course, but overall, SM/CSM overwhelmingly dominate the hobby, particularly tourneys. The reason for that should be glaringly obvious.

Zerosoul
14-09-2006, 19:11
I think the thing to remember is that PEOPLE don't hate Space Marines. INTERNET PEOPLE hate Space Marines. There's a tremendous disconnect between what goes in in forums like this, Dakka, and 40konline and what happens in game stores. That's not to knock those forum - lots of good and useful conversation goes on here - but in general, there's a tremendous gap between what happens on the ground and the discussion here.

Kahadras
14-09-2006, 20:43
Which is pretty much the same thing. CSM=SM with more powergaming opportunity.

Yup I agree. Yet there still seems to be this dislike that is needlessly aimed at the Loyalists. At best the 4th ed Marine codex is competitive. The third ed. codex was a joke (it was ment to be competitive with every other codex released in 3rd ed. Just compare it to the Guard codex)


INTERNET PEOPLE hate Space Marines

Agreed. It's seen as cool to dislike Space marines (and any MEq army come to think of it) on Warhammer 40K forums.

Kahadras

BrainFireBob
14-09-2006, 21:02
Yep. Even people who claim loudly they don't have a problem with Space Marines are prone to disparaging remarks and/or snobbish behavior.

The 3rd Ed Marine dex was woefully underpowered by the end of 3rd- but then, it was mainly competing with the back of the 3rd Ed rulebook.

The new 'dex is pretty fair- it can be abused, but it takes deliberate effort to do so (Assault cannon armies requires buying a very specific unit set). I have also begun to wonder if much of the griping about SMs we see now comes from players beginning later in 3rd, who think that Marines shouldn't win as often/should be easy victories for their own armies- which, aside from the Rhino Rush, was the state Marines were in (ie, biased from their play experience changing- beating Marines now takes them work, and they don't think that's right).

Some of it's definitely honest- and I've nothing but sympathy for those in powergaming atmospheres. But i have been wondering that about the sheer volume of complaints.

Nabeshin1106
14-09-2006, 21:02
About the "superhumanness" of Marines:

When I started playing, my first army was Tau. I used Tau for about 6 months or so before I decided to try out some other armies. The first army I went for was an Emperor's Children army. The first few games I was like "Wow! These guys ARE the uber strong guys they're supposed to be!" and I still think they are, it's just that there are so many marines that it's nothing special anymore.

vlorlich
14-09-2006, 21:04
People worry to much about hurting other peoples feelings. I wouldn't say that its just a net thing since I know that there is a strong opinion running around my area about space ******. Strangely... the anti Necron hate is worse.

Johnny Bravo
14-09-2006, 21:07
OK, I've been following this since my initial post, and one thing keeps popping up...

Someone please define MEQ for me? I'm unfamiliar with this term. :confused:

Kahadras
14-09-2006, 21:14
Someone please define MEQ for me? I'm unfamiliar with this term.


MEq = Marine equivelent i.e a 3+ save

GEq = Guard equivelent i.e a 5+ save.

Hope this helps :)

Kahadras

Nehcrum
14-09-2006, 23:33
MEq = Marine equivelent i.e a 3+ save

GEq = Guard equivelent i.e a 5+ save.

Hope this helps :)

Kahadras
MEQ = Marine equivalent. T4 and 3+ save
GEQ = Guard equivalent. T3 and 5+ save

Don't forget the toughness.

Kahadras
14-09-2006, 23:37
Don't forget the toughness.

Normaly I don't bother with that. The save is what counts at the end of the day. IIRC Sisters are only toughness 3 and I still count them as an MEq.

Kahadras

Death Whisper
14-09-2006, 23:43
Sisters are sort of MEQ since they have the save but then wouldn't Iyanden fall under MEQ too? Toughness can make a significant difference.

In my opinion Sisters are an even better value than Marines if you can keep them out of close combat. They can actually outshoot Marines point for point.

Sekhmet
15-09-2006, 00:48
considering they're cheaper and have the same BS and weapon, of course they outshoot a tactical marine point for point. Hell, a scout marine outshoots a tactical marine point for point.

Llothlian
15-09-2006, 07:47
SoB are as survivable as Marine Scouts... Scouts have 4 to wound, 4 to save, SoB are at 3 to wound, 3 to save, about the same number die from incoming fire.

SoB are not a MEQ, since they die much easier than Marines.

GrimZAG
15-09-2006, 07:54
I don't like space marines, purely because i don't like them and the fact that they worship a half dead old man who is thronebound, i prefer chaos

Kahadras
15-09-2006, 08:11
SoB are not a MEQ, since they die much easier than Marines.

What about Death guard then? Toughness really isn't a yard stick to measure an MEq army IMO.

Kahadras

Llothlian
15-09-2006, 12:37
Isn't flexability one of the main qualities of a MEQ too? SoB are almost a one trick pony. ;)

VetSgtNamaan
15-09-2006, 14:04
I see Sisters of Battle being all about faith really, orphans of the Imperium raised to believe the Emperor is god and the power of that faith lets them do things even marines can not equal. To me at least I think he tried to do with SPace marines what sisters are right now but while he could change thier bodies to walking tanks thier minds are another story all together and that is why so many fell prey to chaos.

Daemon king Mad Dog
15-09-2006, 19:01
I never expected this thread to be this big...

How did we get onto the subject of Sisters of battle fluff?

Any way, I swear sisters of battle choose their life? whereas space amrines don't. (Read space wolf, they either will die or become a space marine, generaly though they become a space marine AFTER they ahve already died...)

Falkman
15-09-2006, 19:02
Any way, I swear sisters of battle choose their life? whereas space amrines don't. (Read space wolf, they either will die or become a space marine, generaly though they become a space marine AFTER they ahve already died...)
Ehm.
Most Space Marines recruit people from barbaric or savage civilisations.
People that willingly go through deadly trials to have a chance to become one of the "space men".

The_Patriot
15-09-2006, 19:04
I never expected this thread to be this big...

How did we get onto the subject of Sisters of battle fluff?

Any way, I swear sisters of battle choose their life? whereas space amrines don't. (Read space wolf, they either will die or become a space marine, generaly though they become a space marine AFTER they ahve already died...)

Actually, no Sisters do not choose their life, but the Imperium does it for them. They are raised in orphanages and trained to be part of the Ministorum as a Sister first, but if they fail to any of the tests required for a Sister they are used in the Administorum functions of the Ministorum.

monkey child
15-09-2006, 19:08
Ehm.
Most Space Marines recruit people from barbaric or savage civilisations.
People that willingly go through deadly trials to have a chance to become one of the "space men".

I think he was refering to the fluff in which potential space wolves are often picked up from the feild of battle often after they have taken terminal injuries, in which case they don`t have much of a choice. Kind of " You want to get some cool armour and shoot stuff, or do you want to bleed to death ?one death rattle for yes two for no."

VetSgtNamaan
15-09-2006, 19:22
Many chapters are like that really the Deathwing and indeed the entire dark angel chapter were recruited from that one world. If you do not have a way to make sure you are getting the biggest and the best warriors from any given world the chapter as a whole will suffer. Just goes to prove that humans are the most easily domesticated animals around ;)

Death Whisper
15-09-2006, 19:27
considering they're cheaper and have the same BS and weapon, of course they outshoot a tactical marine point for point. Hell, a scout marine outshoots a tactical marine point for point.

I was talking about being able to soak up return fire too. Point for point if basic Sisters swap fire with bolters against marines they will win in terms of point costs. Scouts would lose.

insectum7
15-09-2006, 21:36
I was talking about being able to soak up return fire too. Point for point if basic Sisters swap fire with bolters against marines they will win in terms of point costs. Scouts would lose.

Shouldn't matter anyways, it's the inter army relationship that matters, not the results of a false shootoff between the basic troops. (necrons would probably win every game if that was the case, as it takes twice the firepower to kill a cron than to kill a marine)

Death Whisper
15-09-2006, 21:41
(necrons would probably win every game if that was the case, as it takes twice the firepower to kill a cron than to kill a marine)

No. Point for point swapping fire the Sisters will still win in terms of making their points cost back, even with We'll Be Back rolls.


Shouldn't matter anyways, it's the inter army relationship that matters, not the results of a false shootoff between the basic troops.

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say with this statement.