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Shinguuji
13-09-2006, 09:25
Greetings!

Have not posted for some time, would like some discussion on the most powerful unit in the game - Chaos lord on dragon

While it is obscenely powerful, many to not really make their points back due to 2 reasons : 1)Is ignored or trapped by small cheap units, 2)Is killed by a multitude of cannons, furthermore, these problems are compounded by the fact that you have to run your army around the dragon, not the other way round, thus the need of a very specific army.

However, with the 'fight twice in 1 round' rule that has just appeared, it's possible to charge your lord into an incredibily weak unit, then again, charge him into another uber unit nearby, thus earning back his points faster.

Well, let's run this discussion along these 3 lines:
1)Creation of lord(equipment)
2)How to use the lord
3)Elements of army supporting the lord

Oh, and please try not to dwell on the topic on eye dragons with staff, although that IS the character of characters, I don't think it really requires much strategy....

1)I personally run my lord like this :
Lord of chaos, Berserker Sword, Armour of damnation, gaze of the gods, shield, dragon - 673 points

Logic is that your lord on dragon is most likely to kill off any characters, hence you do not need higher strength, what you want your lord to do is to hopefully, is to kill as much as possible to earn his points back, hence the sword, the armour is for close up combat with super characters like saurus old ones, or even another lord on dragon. gaze is insurance against shooting, and shield is for the extra save, easy peasy.

Another way to run your lord is to align him to tzenetch, and equip him with other items, that is the hardest lord to earn his points back, as he has dual roles, casting and killing, which most of the time, he cannot do both. Plus, the new miscast table makes it really nasty to run this lord.

2)How to use your lord: As said earlier, in this edition, charge your lord into some unit that is hopefully easy to kill off, then pursuit into a thick fat unit again, it'll help you earn back your points fast, with a 20 inch move and 3d6 pursuit, it should be easy to position your lord. Note that you must try to let some fo your units charge the enemy first, without resolving that combat...ahhh, just read the book, with enough fliers, doing this should not be too hard. Remember to pursuit into the hardest unit possible, because you can also fight him in his round, with you charging bonus kept, if I read the book correctly. One point your lord has over others is movement, it can reach anywhere easily and quickly, so getting him into a sweet position is easy.

Also, move your lord up the flanks, the unusual angle will hopefully mess up your opponent's guessing for his cannons, and leaving your lord away from the rest of the army will force him to target one or the other.

3)Army composition :
I use 2 units of knights(1 chosen), and 2 units of marauder horsemen, along with houndshields, screamers and furies.

Well, the reason for this combination is simple, make your remaining army as hard and as irritating as possible, with a super hard charge, so your enemies are forced to either ignore on or the other.

Also, bring along your anti-cannon fliers like screamers or furies, to take out the warmachines that can bring down your mighty dragon. Their other role is to charge the enemies your dragon will carry his pursuit into.


Good luck and have fun with your dragons!

Voltaire
13-09-2006, 09:56
Firstly, objectively speaking, the Chaos Lord on a Dragon is NOT the most powerful unit in the game simply because he doesn't have the ability to cover all angles at all times. The exception to this is a Tzeentch Lord on Dragon with the 'state the obvious' configuration. To state simply that one is the best without proper evidence, then you are making a sweeping generalisation.

The actual probable most powerful unit in the game is a fully tooled up unit of Chosen Knights with a Chaos Lord accompanying them. It takes longer to kill than a Lord on Dragon and the Lord on Dragon has the possibility of dying to a good round of combat resoution because of the Dragons poor CC save.

Shinguuji
13-09-2006, 10:11
Firstly, objectively speaking, the Chaos Lord on a Dragon is NOT the most powerful unit in the game simply because he doesn't have the ability to cover all angles at all times. The exception to this is a Tzeentch Lord on Dragon with the 'state the obvious' configuration. To state simply that one is the best without proper evidence, then you are making a sweeping generalisation.

The actual probable most powerful unit in the game is a fully tooled up unit of Chosen Knights with a Chaos Lord accompanying them. It takes longer to kill than a Lord on Dragon and the Lord on Dragon has the possibility of dying to a good round of combat resoution because of the Dragons poor CC save.

Hmmm, I was thinking more on the lines of character then units, I see the dragon as equipment, thus I call the lord the most powerful character, which I said, 'character', not 'unit', in my title, but dropped the ball on the first line, so let's not argue over this, shall we?

Perhaps you are right with regards to the fact that most lords cannot cast magic, and thus cannot be considered the most powerful character, and it is now that I declare my basis of calling the lord the most powerful character to be the fact that lord+dragon has the most advantageous stats in my opinion, and I believe, many others too. The only characters I think that comes close is perhaps the god specific demons and elf lord on dragon(which is weaker than a chaos lord(lower T, etc., and their dragon has one less attack, and one less breath weapon), so the only possible contender I can think of is god specific demon, of which the bloodthirster has the highest chance of owning the battlefield all by itself. So okay, I was making a sweeping statement, but let's get on to the discussion, shall we?

One disadvantage about chaos knights is the march block, combined with the fact it can't fly, but other than that, yeah, chosen knights hit insanely hard and is a pain to kill, but characters might pose a problem though, especially those with armour negating weapons, or high strength brutes, or things like giants or bloodthirster

devolutionary
13-09-2006, 10:39
Don't forget the other uber-general type - Vampires. Blood Dragon, level 4 Wizard, Zombie Dragon, that's a whole lot of munchy. Weighs in cheaper than a geared Chaos Lord, has access to some rather savage abilities, and the magic drawbacks are counter-acted by the level 4. Can also summon Skellies, and loads of em, which is always nice ;)

Varath- Lord Impaler
14-09-2006, 07:06
Actually a vampire lord is only Lvl 3 and the blood dragon has one less PD.

If you have a Tzeentch lord on dragon give him an golden eye of tzeentch (3+ ward for him AND mount from shooting) and the beserker sword (look it up, it works from the dragons base)

devolutionary
14-09-2006, 08:07
Huh. I coulda sworn that they could get to level 4 *scratches head*

I'm aware of the Tzeentch Lords too, btw. I PLay both armies, though I'm a complete n00b still at the end of the day.

Ya gotta admit. Zombie dragon Vampire Lords are kinda cool ;)

warlord hack'a
14-09-2006, 09:31
ahh a nice game of power-hero hammer, back to 5th edition!!

plz boyz stop this nonsense and start the discussion originally wanted by the author: what army would you build around this lord..

My opinion: no matter the rest of the army, it will still be an all eggs in one basket army and my bolt throwers and doom diver will hopefully damage your lord enough to get me some points. But true, a lord on dragon will become more effective with the new rules and your opponents must be careful with manouvering in order to prevent your overrun from happening. However, protecting against this is rather easy: say your lord is on my left flank, ready for the flank charge into a unit (unit A) which he can easily wipe out to overrun into the flank of my main unit (unit B). Now it is my turn to move: I will wheel my unit A by keeping the left side where it is and moving the righ side forward. Now if you charge in the next round one of three things will happen:
1- you will charge, it turns out that you hit the flank of the unit, you dragon gest angled so that it is paralel to the units flank, you wipe them out and overrun in a diagonal line back towards your tabel edge, missing your target unit by a mile.
2- same as above but it turns out you hit the front and you will overrun towards my table edge, missing the target unit by a mile.
3- you flunk attacks and do not overrun at all, or I make my ld test and you do not overrun at all.

So I do not consider this a serious threat. However, you flying over my troops to land in the rear, terrorizing my war machines and ready for the rear charge combined with a charge from knight to the front is much much more threathening.

Pravus
15-09-2006, 14:59
What about if you make Mr Chaos Lord a devotee of Slaanesh; you can give him the pendant/blade of blood combo to generate a veritable avalanche of attacks. Prior to 7th edition this combo was limited by fighting only one combat a turn - now the gloves are off and with an overrun/pursuit charge you could very quickly be looking at a 6 wound lord with 10 attacks. Team him up with mounted daemonettes or chaos furies and marauder cav to fix units in place and you can roll one flank in a turn. Question is, does your lord need to be on a dragon to pull this off or could you get away with a Steed of Slaanesh?

^DrAgOn^
15-09-2006, 15:09
My opinion: no matter the rest of the army, it will still be an all eggs in one basket army and my bolt throwers and doom diver will hopefully damage your lord enough to get me some points.

Not all the time, I use the exact same set up on my lord from time to time (Although a khorne lord) and in a 2000 point game I also have two fully ranked khorne warrior units (16 last edition), a huge unit of mauraders with flails (30), furies, some regular units of hounds, khorne flesh hounds and a giant. (since you really only need one character in a khorne army)

I'll probally drop the mauraders to get more warriors this edition.

Anyhow I played against a empire army last game and they had a cannon, bolt throwers and a steam cannon and both the giant and dragon were alive by the end of the game with only one wound of the lord and one off the dragon, you just have to be careful and they do great. :)

ss_cherubael
16-09-2006, 05:00
then points sink is fething terrible, no matter what it is it is going to take up over 600pts for one bloke on a dragon and while in a game of around 4000 to 5000 points that might be alright i think that in anything less than that you are just being a ***** simply forn those points if something goes wrong in one turn you have mangeled yourself and have to spend the rest of the game recovering. and seriously its not the best "character in the game" the blood dragon on a winged nightmare or zombie dragon would eat him for lunch, a greater demon would snap him (any of them) a dragon slayer wold have a field day on his ****, and inall seriousness how many cannon shots can he really take (assuming your not a beard and take the eye of T)???????

BloodiedSword
16-09-2006, 17:06
I don't like the fighty Lord on Dragon. The problem is that it just does too many things - the Dragon needs to spread around its Terror, it has two very nice Breath weapons, and it is a monster in combat.

You end up with a unit where you can't justify Terror-ising people and throwing around Breaths as you waste a ton of combat capability, you can't outfight specialist combat Lords and you can't guarantee sufficiently good results against rank and file.

TBH I'd rather take an Exalted Daemon with a couple of levels of Magic - you can still get the Terror, Flying and cause all kinds of mayhem, T5 with a 5+ Ward is still good protection against arrows and much better at surviving cannons, all for a fraction of the cost and keeping your Lord slot intact.

EDIT: and of course you can always go war machine/wizard hunting and add good support to a combat. These just aren't viable for a lord on a dragon - they're too small fries for it to be worth going after.

Shinguuji
16-09-2006, 18:19
Hmmm, something I'd like to point out: Isn't the flavour of a lord-on-dragon is that it's like a kinda 'eggs in one basket' thingy?

I do think that dragons are able to go toe to toe with everything other than a greater demon, it has the charge advantage(flying), something like 11+ attacks, depending on how you configure, lots of wounds, etc.

Well, having your big-ass dragon getting killed in turn 1 by a lucky cannon shot is pretty unlucky, what are the chances of that happening? There are always unlucky situations, like getting half your army destroyed by turn 1, etc.

I do think the breath weapons are for turn 1, where you can't touch stuff yet, but you can breathe on enemies.

The thing about chaos, is even with the dragon gone, knights can hit hard enough to win the game, if you spend all your resources to kill my dragon and ignore my knights till turn 4+, i'll consider it a good move, after 600+ points of characters, you still have roughly 1300+points of knights and demons to kill people. I think chaos is powerful enough to move around independently, except all elements must hit hard enough such that everything is a threat, and that is actually a sort of synnergy?

Gekiganger
16-09-2006, 18:34
Hmmm, something I'd like to point out: Isn't the flavour of a lord-on-dragon is that it's like a kinda 'eggs in one basket' thingy?


Indeed, my opponent wasn't happy when I threw a brass orb at his dragon :) He said some very bad words :o

BloodiedSword
17-09-2006, 21:24
But on average, two or three cannonball hits are going to take down a Dragon, after which the Lord (if he is still alive) is going to be stranded, on his own, relatively poorly armoured (compared to one mounted on a horse) and basically dead meat.

Compare that to the damage you'd expected those cannonball hits to do to even Chosen Chaos Knights - against 2 ranks you'd expect to lose 5 men if all hit. Even in that worst case scenario you have lost a lot less than with the dragon.

I mean, dragons aren't bad but the fact that you have to have a Chaos Lord on top and when Exalted Daemons are just so much better... mmph.

Donga666
17-09-2006, 21:41
I mean, dragons aren't bad but the fact that you have to have a Chaos Lord on top and when Exalted Daemons are just so much better... mmph.

I agree entirely, lords on dragons could get back their points but they would be hard pushed. Unless you field the 'forbidden combination', forget it!

I have experience of exalted deamons and they do a similar job for MUCH fewer points!

Anyway, you can't take characters without taking the army into account! A welf army would toast most of the combinations mentioned, not to mention what dwarfs would do!!!

EDIT: I field my lord in a regiment of 25 marauders with healm'o'many eyes, gaze of gods and a great weapon. Charge that if you so desire, cheap and effective! I can then spend the dragon points on some real goodies :D