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UltimateNagash
14-09-2006, 10:46
Since Games Workshop are rereleasing all the army books, what do people feel should be in the new Chaos book/books.
I for one would like to see both Hordes and Beasts combined into one, with some units from Storm of Chaos coming in. So, for me, these are the improvements I would like to see:

Bring back Marauder characters (from WD issue). They would be fair.
Add in Cockatrice mounts, and the Beast of Nurgle as a mount.
Maybe have a unit with Javelins in...That's what the Chaos forces in Daemonslayer threw at the airship...Maybe Ungors.
Add 0-1 Harpies to the Beasts units.
Redo the Raiders rule!
Bring back Pink and Blue Horrors.
Be able to take more Furies for the number of undivided characters in the army, alla SoC.
Put in mutants - customisable, so you can make Flayerkin out of them, but also other things: tentacle arms, extra legs etc. Maybe they could be skirmishers?
Add Mounted Daemonettes to Daemon units!
Chaos Ogres should have Bull Charge.
Have the Hellcannon in, but it's crewed by Chaos Warriors.
Add in Stone and River Trolls.
Have Daemonic Cavalry as Rare choices.
Add more Chaos mutations to the giant.
Spawn: maybe have S5, and Khorne one gets +1A.

Well, that's all I would like to see. Anyone else care to mention anything?

Sherlocko
14-09-2006, 11:18
I just want to be able to play an ambushy beastherd still and hope that they don´t just make Chaos into a "generic" list..

Voltaire
14-09-2006, 11:50
Ahhhh Chaos...

The things I would add to the new Chaos list are as follows;


A '2 hand weapon' option for Marauders
Summoning rules for Daemons
Rename Furies to Harpies
More customiseable Chariots
Rework the Archaon Character to come in line with his Marks
Marks for Marauders
A non flying Daemonic character
Make Belakor a mainstream character
Work in some subtle Malal items


Everything else I could think of was suggested by UltimateNagash

Shaitan
14-09-2006, 12:23
I don't really like the idea of renaming Furies to Harpies. Furies are daemons, Harpies are beasts... that alone should be enough difference not to do it. Maybe Harpies could be added to the BoC army book.

The most important changes I would like to see are:

1. Daemonic Cavalry (Mounted Daemonettes should be in the army book, maybe add some more cavalry units)
2. A '2 hand weapon' option for Marauders would be very nice! Giving them marks is not a must imo. That would make em too good as horde infantry...
3. The Hellcannon should be in the army book.

UltimateNagash
14-09-2006, 13:42
Voltaire, I already said Daemonic Cavalry, but I'm glad you (and everyone else) agree with me so far.
I'll admit I never noticed Marauders not having two weapons, but, yes, I think they should now.
Non flying Daemon character would be nice - maybe get the Daemon Prince to be more like the 40K one?
I wouldn't want Marks on Marauders, as they're for more disbanded, and well, yes, it makes the Horde army too good.

Voltaire
14-09-2006, 14:34
Thinking about it, the Marks for Marauders wouldn't be a good idea, but having something that distinguishes each of them as being marked by a particular God would definitely go a long way to making them more univeral, like the Chaos Warriors.

Baindread
14-09-2006, 15:09
Chaos? Hmm....remove half the units and nerf the hell out of everything else. So the chaos players learn how it is to be High Elf. :angel: :D

Rork
14-09-2006, 15:47
Chaos would never get harpies. As an army, they already have access to two flying units - that's more than most.

By and large I agree with the thoughts here, except that:

Chaos Dwarfs rule

Pink horrors splitting into blue horrors was fluffy, but a nightmare on the table (plus you had to own three models for every one you bought).

UltimateNagash
14-09-2006, 16:27
I'm not including Chaos Dwarfs for one reason: they don't worship the four major Chaos Gods. I feel they should be brought back (see my sig), but not as an extension to another Chaos Book.
Ha, ha Braindead.

UltimateNagash
15-09-2006, 10:58
Ok, so here's everything I've thought of so far:

Have gifts for all champions, like in Path to Glory mutations and gifts etc.
Make Daemons able to be summoned. A Magic Item (Daemon Portal or something), that allows you to keep a unit of Daemons off the table, and when you use the item, you can bring them on.
Improve the Mark of Nurgle. Maybe add +1 W to troops?
Add in a Lore of Chaos Undivided.
Daemonic Gift that adds a Wound.


I think the list itself should look like this (bear with me, it's long. Also, don't expect me to get names all right, I'm working from memory here):
LORDS
Chaos Lord
Marauder Lord (needs a name)
Master Sorcerer
Beastlord
Great Shaman
Doombull
Daemon Prince
Greater Daemons
HEROES
Exalted Champion
Marauder Hero (needs a better name)
Aspiring Champion
Sorcerer
Beast Champion
Shaman
Exalted Daemon
non Flying Daemon
MOUNTS
Chaos Dragon
Cockatrice - see High Elf book
Daemonic Steed
Juggernaught of Khorne
Steed of Slaanesh
Disk of Tzeentch
Beast of Nurgle
MORTAL
Chaos Warriors
Chariots
Marauders - able to take javelins and two hand weapons
Marauder Horsemen - able to take spears
Warhounds
BEASTS
Beast herd - fix Raiders rule. Ungors can replace Spears for Javelins.
Bestigors
Chariots
Warhounds
0-1 Harpies
DAEMONS
Bloodletters
Khorne Hounds
Plague Bearers
Nurglings
Daemonettes
Mounted Daemonettes
Horrors - Flamers can't be targetted when within 5" of Horror unit. Their Champion is a Wizard (like SoC).
Screamers
0-1 Furies, +1 per Undivided character
SPECIAL
Mutants - skirmishers that can be upgraded with things like tentacle arms, etc. Can become Flayerkin.
Minotaurs
Centigors
Chaos Ogres - have Bull Charge for 5 points.
Chaos Trolls - cheaper
RARE
Spawn - S5. Khorne has +1A.
Hellcannon - is crewed by Chaos Warriors, and can have Marks and gifts.
Dragon Ogres
Dragon Ogre Shaggoth
Giant - make more mutations
Daemonic Cavalry - see SoC for details.

I know it's alot, but Chaos is massive, and it need everything to be perfect (well, as perfect as you can get with something that means change).

Voltaire
15-09-2006, 11:01
*Clapping*

What that gentlemen said. We are hitting on some decent ground finally on what Chaos needs.

UltimateNagash
15-09-2006, 11:16
I hope you're talking about me.
Anyway, from what I'm actually noticing, and coming up with ideas for, is that Chaos is very good already. It's really just a couple of improvements, with a couple of additions, to make.
So, although I can't start one now, what do people reckon?

Have all the rules for Chaos in one book
Keep the books split up
Make it a generic list
Don't care

I know I vote 1, just for ease of reference.
So, what spells could be put in a Lore of Chaos Undivided?

Milgram
15-09-2006, 12:06
get all the chaos units in one book and bring back the champions of chaos book! :)

what I'm missing is more diversity for demonic infantry and demon armies at all. SoC was a good start, but I'd like to see some 'real' miniatures for chariots etc.

what I'd like to see for them:

full command for the units
weapon options for some demons (at least for the ones wearing weapons)
'skill' options for demons - why shouldn't firedemons have diffrent options for their fire? horrors beeing upgraded to splitting horrors etc.
'normal' demon characters - p.e. a hero class bloodletter or a demonic tzeentch caster.
new units - a unit of juggernaughts, some demonic nurgle spawn etc.
summonning rules - not like the 40k ones, but... some kind of.
new undivided demons - there HAS to be something diffrent but the demonprinces and the furies, right?

and yes, malal would also be a good idea. :)

devolutionary
15-09-2006, 12:20
One book is utterly, utterly impractical. It'd be too big compared to the rest, would cost a stupid amount of money, and would have so many shortcuts involved it's not funny. So, at the end of the day, there's only one way in my mind to give Chaos the full attention it deserves;

3 Books.

There's three armies, and by God Chaos deserves it. Give us the Horde, the Beasts, and the Daemons! A core from one book is a special to another, and a special is a rare. That makes sense to me. As it stands, Beasts doesn't conform with Hordes in terms of layout.

We don't need 7 Lords and 4 Heroes in the Hordes book. What we need is 2 Lords, 2 Heroes, and more troop options.

Beasts is pretty much even. I like the whole damn book, though not the units so much.

Daemons need their cavalry as a "legal unit". If nothing else it will allow people to field a Greater Daemon's proper force.

UltimateNagash
15-09-2006, 12:46
Ok, attached to this post is Word Document. And in that Word Document is everything I feel should be in the new book/books. Enjoy.

Revlid
15-09-2006, 13:12
The Daemonic Circle is overpowered, the book would be ridiculously thick, a Lore of Chaos Undivided has about as much right to exist as a Lore of Khorne, the "new" Mark of Nurgle is now a mark of autobreak, Chaos Warriors could crew the Hellcannon about as well as a Gnoblar could crew a Helblaster Volley Cannon, Bestigors should have unlimited marks, the uh, Hatreds are pretty much Bloodletter rejects and the Undivided Cavalry would likely work just as well, Cockatrice are almost Ulthuan exclusive, the Marauder Hero and the Aspiring Champion have too similar roles, and Daemon Cavalry should be a Daemonic Special, with Daemon Chariots as Daemon Rare.
Whew.
The rest is good though.

Voltaire
15-09-2006, 13:19
Another suggestion would be that Aspiring Champions do not get Chaos armour and you have t upgrade them. This would create a distinctive Marauder Hero in my opinion. Chaos Armour as standard is a bit much.

Jim
15-09-2006, 13:27
Following on from 'The Light Gusty Wind Of Chaos' should one of the new special characters be:

'Archaon...Spawn of Chaos'....?!

You know he deserves to get spawned!

UltimateNagash
15-09-2006, 13:58
Most of this goes to Revlid:
Ooops! I actually just ment for combat resoltuion.
Well, on the Hatreds: I tried to come up with a Malal reference, without actually referring to him. The cavalry was just like the others. I need help on these one people - it doesn't write itself.
On the Daemonic Circle - how is it overpowered. Maybe you could explain this to me.
Well, what should crew the Hellcannon? I thought Chaos Dwarfs - but they aren't really Chaos.
Why should a mutant animal be restricted to one place?
Daemon Chariots I thought were crazy. At least people have models for Daemonic Cavalry.
Good idea Voltaire.
I agree with you Jim, but I doubt GW want to remove Archaon...

Carousel
15-09-2006, 14:04
The problem with having three books is it is expensive: 36 to have access to everything. BUT, one large book is maybe too unwieldy. Either have three smaller, cheaper books (not skimping on fluff, etc. but army lists would be smaller than for other races I reckon), or on big book with a very good summary at the back. It's a tough one, but Deamons to need more stuff. Proper Daemonic hordes please!

I like the asp. champion w/o chaos armour being a marauder champion - something that is needed fluffwise IMO. Maybe have the same for exalted champions to represent marauder lord, then you could do a norse army.

Don't put stone or river trolls in, aren't they from general areas of the old world rather than chaos wastes? Chaos trolls are enough IMO. Lore of CU definitely not necessary.

giner
15-09-2006, 18:09
I like the ideas on this thread two hand weapons on marauders and real raider rules are great, but what I most like is deamon cavalry. I think that one big £30 book if deamons get their stuff would be good or £20 book for as it is now.

kyussinchains
15-09-2006, 18:50
I wouldnt change much at all, maybe some daemonic cavalry and a marauder cheiftan type character would be nice (although fluff wise, they really are aspiring champions)

maybe bring the beasts list more in line with the other two, it's pretty confusing which units can be included in other armies right now (I've had a few disputes over this)

I like the beasts having a seperate book, I also like the daemons and mortals being in the same book. They have a great set of magic items, and I dont think any of the marks are remotely underpowered. no need for an undivided lore, the 3 lores available to undivided sorcerers are perfectly representative of chaotic magic as it is.

I would like to see chaos warriors improved somehow, as it is they dont really give enough bang for buck, and many people avoid them. Perhaps give them S5 or an extra point of Ld. I would like to see a little more character for the daemons, unit champions or minor characters would make them seem more coherent and balanced as an army.

Having said all that however, I'm more than happy with chaos as it is, and if they didnt change a thing I wouldnt complain at all!

Revlid
15-09-2006, 19:04
What's wrong with Daemonic Chariots? People don't really have models for the cavalry, and there are some truly awesome conversions over here:
http://z7.invisionfree.com/wyrmling_x/index.php?showtopic=1011&st=0

Gekiganger
15-09-2006, 19:40
Give me back my harpies
Give me some bigger chaos lords (model not stats :p)
Give me back my horrors
Give me some customized chaos sprues
Give me back my daemon cavalry

That and a few more that I can't be bothered writing but others have mentioned.

Gekiga out!

Multifarious
15-09-2006, 20:02
I kind of hope that the Raiders rule stays as it is now, I actually think its fluffy, the beasts not being able to fight well against a hard hitting small unit, being so disorganised.
Furies are pretty close to harpies anyway.
Chaos Dwarfs made the hellcannons for chaos (they were paid to do it), and I suspect that part of the deal was supplying crew for it.

Gekiganger
15-09-2006, 20:06
Furies are pretty close to harpies anyway.

Yeh... and clanrats are pretty close to stormvermin. Still no substitute. If getting harpies means losing furries by all means get rid of them. *Grumbles about cheap carbon copy-furries and 'back in the day'*

Gekiga out!

haberova
15-09-2006, 20:41
I think they should divide chaos into beasts, mortals/hordes, and daemons as suggested earlier. I like the idea of having them be stand alone books. I like beastmen a lot, but don't really care for hordes. I think that they should have a Lore of Chaos Undivided or maybe just a generic chaos list of some kind. They should definitely redo centigors. Spawns would be something they should think about making better too, just because they are just punching bags and have no hitting power whatsoever.

devolutionary
15-09-2006, 21:34
A Lore of Chaos Undivided would be kinda daft. There's nobody to manipulate that wind, or to even provide it. Remember at the end of the day ALL the winds are of Chaos, so surely they should have access to all 8 basic winds, manipulating the raw material of Chaos that intertwines with the magic itself? That would be the true Lore of Undivided.

Gekiganger
15-09-2006, 22:02
I'm not sure...Just because the winds of magic are created by chaos shouldn't mean they can manipulate it in the same way as some mages. It isn't logical to have chaos using the 'lore of life' etc, they don't use magic that way.

UltimateNagash
15-09-2006, 22:14
I kind of hope that the Raiders rule stays as it is now, I actually think its fluffy, the beasts not being able to fight well against a hard hitting small unit, being so disorganised.
Furies are pretty close to harpies anyway.
Chaos Dwarfs made the hellcannons for chaos (they were paid to do it), and I suspect that part of the deal was supplying crew for it.

Um...I'm not sayin remove the Raiders - I'm saying fix it. In 7th edition they now can;t rank up, and so don't get rank bonuses. All they need to do is change it to five models in a rank now.

Carcass
15-09-2006, 23:00
only one chaos book
Marauder characters
Rewrite the Demon Characters
Rewrite the demon armoury
GIVE PLASTIC SPRUE OF WARHOUNDS
Bring a new "armoury" with mutations etc

Voltaire
15-09-2006, 23:02
I also want a mount for Lords that can fly in the same manner as a Pegasus or a Manticore.

Rork
15-09-2006, 23:06
In 7th edition they now can;t rank up, and so don't get rank bonuses. All they need to do is change it to five models in a rank now.

They can rank up...it's just the worst-case scenario that they now have trouble with.

The alteration of the ranks rule is a pain, but it's not all that bad for herds.

zak
16-09-2006, 08:57
Yes, they can rank up, but as they have to rank up 4 wide they don't get any rank bonus. They will now have to rely on outnumbering as the Gors are all that in combat and because of there low leadership will often run if one of them steps on a twig!
They are still useful due to the new auto kill/flee rule when they ambush so all is not lost.

On the other subject I would like to see Beasts remain seperate from the main book. I would like to see Beasts as Chaos (gors/ungors/bestigors) as undivided, whilst the larger models such as the minotaurs could be given marks. This would stop the situation of a large Khorne beast army with Shamans! Or alternatively if you take Khorne models then you can't take a shaman. I just think it fits better with the background.

Multifarious
16-09-2006, 09:57
Um...I'm not sayin remove the Raiders - I'm saying fix it. In 7th edition they now can;t rank up, and so don't get rank bonuses. All they need to do is change it to five models in a rank now.

No, I mean I want it to remain "broken", I think its a nice weakness to it. You only have to rank up to 4 if you are hit by something rather narrow, like a chariot. Otherwise you can rank up in rows of 5+, if there is space for the models to fight.

UltimateNagash
16-09-2006, 10:07
Maybe have it four wide, but they get rank bonus?

Voltaire
16-09-2006, 10:15
The Raider rule is quite simple I thought. The obvious problems are outweighed by their background (fluff) in my opinion. This means that they are more falling into place with their background. I thought, when I got the army book, that Beasts was one of the most balanced books they have released. The only thing I would want to do is to have the ability to give more than extra units of 'markable' Bestigor and something that makes Trolls seem like a better option.

Revlid
16-09-2006, 10:22
Um...I'm not sayin remove the Raiders - I'm saying fix it. In 7th edition they now can;t rank up, and so don't get rank bonuses. All they need to do is change it to five models in a rank now.

What? That's stupid. You can rank them up any width you want, so you can still get rank bonuses.
The only probelm is against Chariots, Single Monsters and Single Characters, where they have to "rank up" four wide, and thus lose their rank bonus. Which should be fixed.

Multifarious
16-09-2006, 12:12
I don't see why, it seems to be a nice disadvantage, a fluffy but not overpowered one.

Fredmans
16-09-2006, 13:22
I have no real problems with Chaos. I love Chaos. The only thing that is in need of a fix is the Demons list. I know SoC tried to make demon armies more viable, but almost to the extreme. My personal problem with demon lists is that Chaos for me is a manifestation of corruption and mutation. Due to Mark rules, demon lists tend to be monotonous. In my Chaos world, a highly restricted army list is the antithesis of a proper Demons' list. In my opinion, Chaos demon lists need more Undivided demon options that feels demonic. Furies, for me, is a quick fix to give Chaos access to flyers. They do nothing for me, and feel "good" rather than characteristic of Chaos. I want more in terms of corruption, mutations and abherrations.

Demonic gifts is a great idea, but sadly enough restricted to demon princes. What I'd really like is unit options. Generic "Demons" with "equipment" options.

Give an army character and people will scream out less for what they "need" in order to win (or to be like all the other army lists).

My distorted two cents with corrupted value

/Fredmans

UltimateNagash
16-09-2006, 13:28
That's a really good idea Fredmans. I like it.
I was kind of going with Undivided with the Hatreds, but maybe adding in some kind of skirmishing daemon unit with multi options is a good idea.
*EDIT* I'm going to add Chaos armour has an option to all characters. They start with no armour, so you can make a Marauder army.

vampires are cool!
16-09-2006, 13:55
id like to see chaos warriors be a steady upgrade from marauders- similar to saurus sacred spwanings - showing their steps along the path to damnation.
this could be simple little things; +3pts fro an extra point of weaponskill, or some such, with increases to the maruader stats until they become more like the chaos warriors we have now.
also i want to see more special rules. chaos is everything and nothing, but none of the mortal units have particularly good special rules
also, the mark of chaos undevided is the pinicle of a chaos warriors pagoda, not the bog standard! all marks of chaos should be bought and have varing degrees of ability [full mark, half mark, mini mark, or something like that].

Lewa
16-09-2006, 20:19
I agree with what alot of people said but i think maruaders need to be given the opportunity to buy a skirmish upgrade. I see the maruaders as the horde and the warriors as the elite and think this would better represent that, agree?

vcassano
17-09-2006, 09:41
I love Chaos Mortals. It is the only army in both Fantasy and 40k that I have been committed to. I love everything about it.

That is why I don't think that there should be many changes with a new book. All three army lists should be put in one book with the daemons probably needing a little loving to get them up to the level as a solo army.

Other than that I think a little reworking should be done with the magic items - get rid of sick combos and just generally freshen up the armoury for some alternatives. The models certainly don't need updating because they are the best in the game.

Lastly we should have the option of Marauder heroes - I particularly like UltimateNagash's suggestion of the heroes starting without Chaos Armour. Although I think having it separate could allow for Marauder armies to be made where having the specific Marauder character allows x amount of Marauder units to be marked.

Revlid
17-09-2006, 09:58
I agree with what alot of people said but i think maruaders need to be given the opportunity to buy a skirmish upgrade. I see the maruaders as the horde and the warriors as the elite and think this would better represent that, agree?

Not really. Otherwise Zombies, Skaven, and every Orc and Goblin unit would also skirmish.

Gekiganger
17-09-2006, 10:11
I agree with what alot of people said but i think maruaders need to be given the opportunity to buy a skirmish upgrade. I see the maruaders as the horde and the warriors as the elite and think this would better represent that, agree?

You also seem to think that skirmishing represents lesser trained troops. Complete opposite. It's much harder to fight in a loose formation than in a block.

By that Logic all elites should skirmish :rolleyes:

UltimateNagash
17-09-2006, 11:38
OK, here's the new document.

Zilverug
18-09-2006, 08:12
Not really. Otherwise Zombies, Skaven, and every Orc and Goblin unit would also skirmish.

In addition, beastmen gors and ungors already provide a skirmishing unit ready to be included in a Chaos army. I don't see the need for skirmishing marauders either.

DisruptorX
18-09-2006, 08:45
For the love of god, give us back full command for daemonic infantry! Why with the khorne favouritism? I play nurgle, and want my plaguebearers to not be at an immediate disadvantage versus any unit they fight because they can't have a champion or standard. Especially with the horrific instability rules.

Daemons are a manifestation of mortal's nightmares and fears. One would expect a daemon host to march under dark banners as surely as one would expect the undead to!

Also, bring back fiends of sla'anesh (the scorpion horse things), they were badass.

UltimateNagash
18-09-2006, 13:32
Well, Fiends can be anything, so that's OK. I'll add the command stuff when I get home - but standards will be morphed with the Daemon.

Gekiganger
18-09-2006, 17:01
For the love of god, give us back full command for daemonic infantry! Why with the khorne favouritism? I play nurgle, and want my plaguebearers to not be at an immediate disadvantage versus any unit they fight because they can't have a champion or standard. Especially with the horrific instability rules.

Daemons are a manifestation of mortal's nightmares and fears. One would expect a daemon host to march under dark banners as surely as one would expect the undead to!

Also, bring back fiends of sla'anesh (the scorpion horse things), they were badass.

Indeed, my plague bearers have been killed through CR before (resulting in me swearing for a few turns on end as they slowly vaporised)

I'd prefer propper horrors more than fiends (But will still like them :))

Gekiga Out!

Reabe
18-09-2006, 17:46
An alternative "Skeggi" list would be cool and would make me collect Marauders/Chaos. Like the Lizardmen Southlands list.

UltimateNagash
18-09-2006, 18:24
I believe from my list at the moment, it's possible to do a Skeggi list. The only thing not in it is Cold Ones...