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View Full Version : BFSP as good as BFM or MoM?



Osbad
14-09-2006, 13:12
Both BfM and MoM have been given good receptions as being generally "fit for purpose" (i.e. introducing people to the relevant wargames in a fun way). Now BFSP has been out a few days what are your opinions of it? IMHO WFB is a more complex animal at the game mechanics level than either of the two other GW core games, so in theory should be harder to teach. Have GW made a good job of it do you reckon?

Please think of this with regard to the new player, rather than whether they represent "value for money" as a cheap way to add models to existing armies or something... that kind of thing may be a side benefit, but it isn't the main purpose of the sets!

jansenm
14-09-2006, 14:56
I dont noe wat they stand for

truthsayer
14-09-2006, 15:01
Battle for Macragge (40k), mines of moria (lord of the rings).

I think the starter set is a nice starter set for beginners but when you actually start playing the game there are a few bits missing.

Fred_Scuttle
14-09-2006, 15:02
Battle For Maccrage and Mines of Moria - 40K and LOTR respectively.....

Oh - and spell check is that little grey box on the right if you use the advance reply option......

Rork
14-09-2006, 15:43
Now BFSP has been out a few days what are your opinions of it?


The armies cover all the aspects of shooting, magic and combat - I think that's ideal for people starting out in the hobby. Even the plastic cannon is a nice touch to get people used to guessing ranges and using war machines in general. Compared to the earlier army boxes I'd say it is a much better way to be introduced to the various phases of the game.


IMHO WFB is a more complex animal at the game mechanics level than either of the two other GW core games, so in theory should be harder to teach. Have GW made a good job of it do you reckon?

Warhammer isn't really any more complicated than 40k (I don't play LotR, so can't comment). There is more to fantasy, I'll grant you, but if someone starts by playing with the "Basic Rules" before moving on to using the "advanced rules" as well, it should be err...child's play. All the rules in fantasy are pretty straightforward, it's how you use them well that takes time.

Easy to learn, difficult to master (and yes, that goes for 40k too).

Dosadi
14-09-2006, 16:28
I think GW has ooutdone themselves with BfSP. It's the first game relasew two complete armies inside. You have everyrhing in there to learn the basics of the game; troops, calvary, war machines, monsters, heros and wizards. The little "Read me First" booklet is perfect for teaching the game in scaled scenarios. I only wish the BfM(40k) had included as many models. But the cool terrain pieces make up for it I guess.
Moria is good as well, 'cause you get the full fellowship and that's what the movies were about. It's certainly what they should have released back when FotR first came out.
But BfSP is the new benchmark in starter sets. It will be interesting to see what they do next. Right now we wont have a new core set for a few years. I could see them maiking a new 40k starter. Not a new edition, just a new box set with some different models in it to keep it fresh. But I doubt this. Maby a new LotR set. I've heard rumour of a Two Towers starter with the Siege of Helms Deep as the focus. They may just do this as a expansion book. and re-release the Helms Deep plastic set. They gotta do something...How long can they go without releasing a new game or starter set?

Dosadi

Griefbringer
15-09-2006, 16:50
I just picked the box yesterday, and I have to say that if I were a beginner (I am definitely not) I would be quite impressed: the models are many, varied, easy to assemble and pretty good looking (considering that they are mostly one-piece models), there are a couple of nice terrain pieces, and the small rulebook is pretty nice. A separate cardboard summary sheet would have been nice for a beginner, though (there is probably one on GW website or WD, but still).

However, for the purpose of introducing the game to beginners, I think the starter/scenario book included could have been stronger. As it is, it is colourful but has a somewhat confused layout which makes for difficult reading. The basic rules are introduced pretty well, but there are some details skipped out (like range modifiers for shooting) which might not be good for long term learning process, since the player has to re-learn a number of things when going through the real rulebook.

However, what is really missing is a bunch of good scenarios - the training exercises are pretty muc exercises in dice rolling and reading comprehension, without much actual gaming, and the actual "Battle for Skull Pass" scenario is basically just a "last man standing" sort of a fight without objectives. And the page for including the characters, cannon and troll to that scenario is a bit lacking (eg. no armour saving throws listed).

With all the nice terrain pieces and models included, it would have been very easy to make something like a narrative four part mini-campaign consisting of small scenarios, each featuring part of the items from the box. Suitable scenarios could have been escorting the pony cart to safety from marauding goblins, rescuing the captured slayer, raiding the shamans hut, recovering a heirloom from the troll's lair, and finally the big battle at the Skull Pass. That would really be a way to get beginners hooked to the game!

Also, there are mentions of army lists in the books, but no example given - having some sample 1-2 page army lists for dwarves and goblins (featuring the models from the boxed set) would have been nice. Also, the background section at the start of the rulebook could have been a bit wider (or with less pictures and useless stats).

10th clancannach rangers
15-09-2006, 17:25
I agree with Griefbringer, the models and pocket rulebook are great, but in the BFSP starter booklet the rules are far too oversimplified. They should have had some more interesting scenarios as well as making use of the characters, cannon and troll, rather than sticking them on the end as an afterthought.

Cruentus
15-09-2006, 17:31
I think it is one of the better starter sets. I would rank them BfSP, MOM, BfM, in that order.

The BfSP set is great because it gives you tons of models, and while the poses on the dwarves is a little strange, its nothing a little cutting and re-gluing can't fix. On the huge plus side, they're all single piece minis. Cut 'em off, put them in the base, and off you go. Assembling 5 and 6 piece dwarves and goblins, when you need a lot, is a huge headache. And once you rank them up, and paint them, they look pretty good for line troops.

The armor saves for the models in BfSP are under each units stats, where weapons and unit options normally are. I know I missed them completely the first time through.

Likewise, MOM gives you lots of great figs, and the scenarios can be gone through pretty quickly, and are very tense.

I agree that BfSP would have been nice with several scenarios, similar to BfM.

giner
15-09-2006, 17:50
Battle for Skull Pass is brilliant. Another box of troops and a charater, there you've got yourself a 1000pts Goblin/Orc and Goblin army. It only takes 1 organ gun and a character to make 1000pts dwarfs I think as well.

It also goes through all aspects of the game execpt skirmishers and chariots so in all the ways I can see it is a good set.

Ps. I wouldn't bother even comparing it with MoM or BfM just look at what you get in the BfSP.

Griefbringer
15-09-2006, 17:57
The armor saves for the models in BfSP are under each units stats, where weapons and unit options normally are. I know I missed them completely the first time through.


Yes, but not in the rules for characters (pages 26-27). Indeed those two pages look very much like an after-thought (as said previously), which is a pity considering that those models really have potential to make for nice centre pieces for scenarios. Including some of the rules for characters (movement, leading units) could have also been a good idea.

As for the models, did I say that I found the amount of poses impressive? The goblin spearmen come with whole seven different poses (not mightily different from each other, but still) and all the goblin command groups are very different from each other.

And the troll is better than I previously thought from pictures (and the scenic base is a nice idea) though the bashed in nose makes it stick out quite a lot from other GW trolls.

VanHel
15-09-2006, 21:22
I really like BFSP. I think it's alot better then the previous edition's starter set. I especially like all the extra gubbins, like the goblin totem and the tied up slayer and all that.

zak
15-09-2006, 22:39
I think it is on par with the other two games. As said in the original post WFB is a more tactically complicated game with more rules. I find it difficult to look at this from the perspective of a newbie, but I think it does a good job. The model selection is as good as the 40K version, if not better, and is good value for money no matter at what stage of gaming your at.

Brother Bart
16-09-2006, 22:50
I think the new BfSP set is great! But then I play Orcs and Goblins, with a heavy concentration on Night Goblins. I like the new night gobbos so much that I''m gonna sell off all of my multi-part goblin sprues and just use the one piece guys. There are 2 other guys in my gaming group that purchased the set and didnt want the goblins, so I'm sitting pretty with 30 spider riders, 120(!!!) Night Goblins with spears and 60 Night Goblins with bows. All with full commands mind you! I think the poses on the archers are better than the new goblin regiment sprue archers because they are actually aiming their bows and look as if they are pulling back the strings. The new modular ones all have quivers in their right hands(!?!?!).

I'm not a beginner so I didnt pay any attention to the intro book, but from what I've heard in here...it definitely could have used some improvements. Hopefully they will do additional on-line content like they did with BfM where they provided several extra scenarios for the Space Marines and Tyranids introducing new unit types/rules/etc.

Griefbringer
17-09-2006, 08:35
Well, there is a Skullpass website up, but I am not really impressed with it:

http://warhammer.uk.games-workshop.com/default.htm?country=uk

A couple of extra scenarios, but not all that special ones.

Warlord Ghazak Gazhkull
17-09-2006, 09:11
Well it is certainly a good box, for the new gamers it is good because they get two armies and some dice so they can start with learning the game and for the veteran gamers you get new stuff for a good pric for you're army and then a pocket rule book.

Greetz
G

misfire67
18-09-2006, 01:00
I am a big fan of the one piece minis in BoSP as well. I was wondering if anyone has heard if this would be a trend going forward with other army releases as well where you can get one piece minis for core type units.

For example I would love to see single piece minis Empire Troops with the release of their army book early next year. I am sure they would look better then the previous editions plastics.

Any thoughts?

misfire67

jansenm
18-09-2006, 01:47
ic.
well its all in a matter of taste
I dont really enjoy 40k and lord of the rings.
(the miniatures are great though).
and I always loved fantasy

these three games are pretty easy to learn. I have played
wargames that are pretty complex

bloodwraith
18-09-2006, 03:54
Well i haven't actually seen it in person yet but the amount of models looks fantastic. I've always wanted a night goblin army, to do that now i can just buy multiple BfSP boxes and add a few other bits. Also as someone who hates assembling models, especially as many models as it takes for a night gobbo army, the one piece models is a god send.

PLC
18-09-2006, 04:11
The value for money of items included in the box sets was not the original question. It was how good are they as an introduction to the game.

I was disappointed with the BfSP booklet. The BfM scenarios were a far stronger introduction in that they introduced a far greater level of tactical movement.

plc

bloodwraith
18-09-2006, 04:43
PLC: you can't seperate the money aspect from introduction to the game. It's good value for money which makes it beginner friendly, it is also a good introduction because beginners don't just want to read the rules, they want some hands on. Those single piece models look like they are quick to paint and no assembly. Very beginner friendly. No idea about the books as i don't have the box yet.

Finn Sourscowl
18-09-2006, 16:30
It is a good introduction to the game and would have certainly drawn me in, if I was a beginner!

However, I agree with Griefbringer... it definatly lacked some slightly more in-depth scenarios, something to get your teeth into. Although the tie-in website is a nice touch, a lot of what is on there could have gone in the box. But then again, considering how good a value for money it is, I guess you can't have everything!

Griefbringer
19-09-2006, 07:44
Apparently, the WD boost is not really magnificent either - I yesterday browsed through WD322 (October issue - yes I know it is a bit early for that, but a local library had got their copy in post already) and I think all they had about Skullpass was one page advertisement in the end.

However, the new O&G book and miniatures got a plenty of hype.

Osbad
19-09-2006, 11:30
Thanks for the opinions guys.