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Kage2020
14-09-2006, 16:03
Well, the title says it: Is there a place for "Eldaril" in the modern 40k background?

For those that are unfamiliar with this term, eldaril was the original blue metallic alloy that the Eldar created their technology from. I just wondered if anyone could justify its modern inclusion? :D

Kage

Buttons
14-09-2006, 16:15
Obviously with Exodites, and likely you could see it's use in conjunction with Wraithbone...

Kage2020
14-09-2006, 16:23
Perhaps the Dark Eldar...?

Kage

Buttons
14-09-2006, 16:42
Possibly, though they too appear to have made the switch to twisted wraithbone as well...

Kage2020
14-09-2006, 16:50
Nyargle, there is that. But basically we have a possibility of using it for the Exodites and Dark Eldar, and perhaps as an exotic for the Craftworld Eldar?

Kage

Buttons
14-09-2006, 16:55
I'd say them using it in the past, so you'd have large amounts of it still being used... However with the loss of their prime source of it, presumably the Croneworlds, they had to develop a new material to take up the slack, in this case wraithbone.

muskrat
14-09-2006, 19:20
Isn't wraithbone harvested from crone worlds?

Kage2020
14-09-2006, 19:31
No, that's the Spirit Stones, which may be distinct (likely so) from spirit stones. Wraithbone is something else entirely.

Kage

Hellebore
15-09-2006, 03:10
It would be interesting as either a pre or post Fall material.

That it USED to be used, are is only being used now, due to lack of resources either way after the Fall.

I would go for prefall myself, only because wraithbone seems like a 'shake'n-bake' sort of building material - used quickly, grown into shape etc.

Eldaril seems more like an artisans material, stuff that takes a long time to manipulate (I assume it's not inherently psychoreactive?) but produces breathtaking results.

Actually, having some 'art' on craftworlds made from the material showing its rarity would further reinforce the bygone age mentality - not that Kage really likes that....;)

Hellebore

Xisor
15-09-2006, 03:25
I'd say that, given the running stance amongst many members here on the DE Soul-Drain, that Eldaril(or something else non-psychic)'d have to be the material(s) of choice for at least the Dark Eldar.

Building things from wraithbone in the webway would surely require ripping holes in the webway?

Xisor

Khaine's Messenger
15-09-2006, 04:29
For those that are unfamiliar with this term, eldaril was the original blue metallic alloy that the Eldar created their technology from. I just wondered if anyone could justify its modern inclusion? :D

I don't see why not. But what is it, more specifically? Calling it "the original blue metallic alloy that Eldar created their technology from" is kinda dumb, because materials involved in the creation of any "technology" should vary by necessity, structural requirements, available materials, etc. The notion that there is just one, or even just two or three, materials used in this manner is simply bogus, imho. Sure, one material can have multiple applications, but come on. This goes for wraithbone, too.

Hellebore
15-09-2006, 05:13
I don't see why not. But what is it, more specifically? Calling it "the original blue metallic alloy that Eldar created their technology from" is kinda dumb, because materials involved in the creation of any "technology" should vary by necessity, structural requirements, available materials, etc. The notion that there is just one, or even just two or three, materials used in this manner is simply bogus, imho. Sure, one material can have multiple applications, but come on. This goes for wraithbone, too.

I would agree, were it not for the convenient way GW wrote the Eldar background.

This is one of the reasons I always put eldar in a certain light, because they were created with certain parameters, we know EXACTLY what they are and aren't capable of.

Thus, when GW created (the newer) eldar background, they developed their tech AND materials synergistically i.e. they gave them technology that only REQUIRED one component.

They seem to be moving to a everything=wraithbone mentality, which I'm not THAT adverse, because of the abilities atributed to it.

Eldar equipment runs on psychic energy, thus requires no specialist material, as wraithbone stores and conducts it. Wraithbone is also, light and incredibly strong.

Because GW created the eldar, they built into their technology a material that could fulfill ALL functions.

It's good to be a fictional race with a creator:cool:

Hellebore

Khaine's Messenger
15-09-2006, 05:31
Thus, when GW created (the newer) eldar background, they developed their tech AND materials synergistically i.e. they gave them technology that only REQUIRED one component.

They created one material with unobtanium qualities, unknown tolerances, uncertain pliability, ductility, and malleability, the ability to drop out of freaking nowhere...and the notion that they could force it into any shape they like without concern for its structural integrity, conductivity, or anything important towards the end of actually making a device work. I'd more easily accept the idea that there are different types of wraithbone (as it once was, iirc, but one of many Eldar psychoplastics?) than swallow whole the notion that wraithbone is one uniform material.


Eldar equipment runs on psychic energy

On that I would disagree. Lots of Eldar equipment runs on physical principles that require absolutely no psychic energy--most of their armor types for example depend almost entirely on the dispersion of force over a surface area just like modern bullet-resistant vests (Eldar even wear a high-tech variant of chainmail-and-plate). This has nothing to do with psionics. Yeah, they might only be in that shape because of psychic sculpting, but that's beside the point.


Wraithbone is also, light and incredibly strong.

And innately psionically pliable. Which most sane people would note is going to be a bad thing in a universe inundated with warp energy.

Quin 242
15-09-2006, 05:38
Well, the title says it: Is there a place for "Eldaril" in the modern 40k background?

For those that are unfamiliar with this term, eldaril was the original blue metallic alloy that the Eldar created their technology from. I just wondered if anyone could justify its modern inclusion? :D

Kage


I've been playing Eldar for quite some while and don't recall the term Eldaril in any publication... Where did you come by this term?

Ikkaan
15-09-2006, 13:27
Craftworld Eldar follow a system of aspects. Warriors and Artisans for example. Also Engineers (=Bonesingers). Bonesingers perfect the art of drawing material from the warp (Wraithbone).

Do Exodites, Dark Eldar and Rogue Eldar (i.e. the infamous Eldar Pirates) have similar things ? Rogue Eldar that completely turn away from the Aspect System would have a hard time making wraithbone. They are quite likely to have factories producing other alloys.

Where do the Dark Eldar and the Exodites get their wraithbone from ?

Kage2020
15-09-2006, 15:02
That it USED to be used, are is only being used now, due to lack of resources either way after the Fall.
I don't think that the resources argument tends to cut it with the Craftworld Eldar, though, although it might for the Exodites where wraithbone and other psychoplastics might - just might - be at a premium.


Eldaril seems more like an artisans material, stuff that takes a long time to manipulate (I assume it's not inherently psychoreactive?) but produces breathtaking results.
There's too little information on it, to be honest, though Eldar psychomorphism should, like other matter, be capable of shaping what might be a mundane material.


Actually, having some 'art' on craftworlds made from the material showing its rarity would further reinforce the bygone age mentality - not that Kage really likes that...
I just find it hard to justify it without recourse to the "lost knowledge" ball-and-chain.


I'd say that, given the running stance amongst many members here on the DE Soul-Drain, that Eldaril(or something else non-psychic)'d have to be the material(s) of choice for at least the Dark Eldar.
That was my original thought on the matter, and perhaps the Exodites also for slightly different reasons. Then again, I believe that the Dark Eldar are also psychic, but there are other demands on their corrupt gift.


Building things from wraithbone in the webway would surely require ripping holes in the webway?
No, not necessarily. <hand-waves>


I don't see why not. But what is it, more specifically? Calling it "the original blue metallic alloy that Eldar created their technology from" is kinda dumb...
Don't shoot the messenger, Khaine's Messenger. I'm merely citing what I can remember of the alloy from pre-1990, including that was one of the primary reasons that early Eldar miniatures tended to be painted blue.


The notion that there is just one, or even just two or three, materials used in this manner is simply bogus, imho. Sure, one material can have multiple applications, but come on. This goes for wraithbone, too.
It's not my notion, Khaine's Messenger, as I'm sure that you're more than aware. Indeed, I have argued multiple forms of "wraithbone/psychoplastics" for many years... ;)


Eldar equipment runs on psychic energy, thus requires no specialist material, as wraithbone stores and conducts it.
That, of course, doesn't mean that you want every cubic centemeter to be constructed of material that can conduct psychic energy. Hence the different properties being attributed to wraithbone.

Then again, I've never believed that Eldar "conjure" wraithbone out of the empyream.


They created one material with unobtanium qualities, unknown tolerances, uncertain pliability, ductility, and malleability, the ability to drop out of freaking nowhere...and the notion that they could force it into any shape they like without concern for its structural integrity, conductivity, or anything important towards the end of actually making a device work.
Remembering, of course, that this is a "future fantasy" game. Some people don't need anything explained past that.


On that I would disagree. Lots of Eldar equipment runs on physical principles that require absolutely no psychic energy...
Sounds almost like misinterpretation of the spirit of the comment for the point to be made, which is fair enough. We all seem to do that. In this case, though, I believe hellebore was referring to the fact that "psychic energy" offers the powering component of much of Eldar technology (contra. Eldar Titans, IIRC), not that psychic energy is responsible for stopping bullets. That the Eldar blend mundane science and psychic engineering - which I call technomancy, a term obviously stolen from elsewhere - is, for me, without question.


Yeah, they might only be in that shape because of psychic sculpting, but that's beside the point.
And, of course, it might not have been a physical individual that engaged in the "psychic sculpting" at all, at least if you like to blend the various editions.


And innately psionically pliable.
Meh. To the majority of the Eldar, all materials are psychically malleable. It only becomes a worry when you consider wraithbone to be solid ectoplasm, or in essence to be as such.


I've been playing Eldar for quite some while and don't recall the term Eldaril in any publication... Where did you come by this term?
It's RT-era, pre-1990 IIRC. It was definitely there, though my rememberance of the exact dates might be off for such a small piece of information.


Also Engineers (=Bonesingers). Bonesingers perfect the art of drawing material from the warp (Wraithbone).
Meh, two bits of background that I find to be thematic "shoe-horning" as much as people suggesting that the C'tan are responsible for all of the Golden/Dark Age of Technology science... ;)

The wraithbone thing is personal preference, since I find the idea of an infinite resource to be worrying (even though it does give them access to a near-infinite power source, which is equally worrying). Yes, even though I love the Eldar and find them to be my favourite race doesn't mean that I want to see them as, in essence, the uber-munchkin race of the 40k universe! ;) (This is why I would personally argue that it is a mundane material derived from materials science into which Bonesingers engeder the psychoreactive properties that it, and its derivatives, are ascribed.)

As to Bonesingers? If a Warlock is a "warrior-mage" and becomes so by walking the Path of the Seer following a stint on the Path of the Warrior, is it too much of a leap to consider that the "mage-architect" might have previously walked upon a more mundane Path/undertaking? I do not find it so, hence I argue that Eldar have mundane science as well as the Path of the Seer, which is increasingly becoming the Eldar's "42".


Rogue Eldar that completely turn away from the Aspect System would have a hard time making wraithbone.
Do they need to make wraithbone, though? And one doubts that those on the Path of the Outcast are necessarily ostracised/exiled, but rather remove themselves from the features of Craftworld Eldar society that they do not agree on (seemingly the rigid culture itself).


They are quite likely to have factories producing other alloys.
Though that is a good point, hence the Dark Eldar and Exodites once more.

Kage

Quin 242
15-09-2006, 15:13
I have the RT book and the red book after... No mention of this stuff?
Have you got the right game system.

and the rest of you lot... where did you hear of this substance?

Khaine's Messenger
15-09-2006, 15:46
I'm merely citing what I can remember of the alloy from pre-1990, including that was one of the primary reasons that early Eldar miniatures tended to be painted blue.

That's actually more amusing than the explanation for Orkish skin tone. Hah....


I believe hellebore was referring to the fact that "psychic energy" offers the powering component of much of Eldar technology (contra. Eldar Titans, IIRC), not that psychic energy is responsible for stopping bullets.

I figured that was the intent, but I wanted to make my own position clear--mechanisms operate on many more principles than "plug it in." Yes, those devices that are "plugged in" will run on something, "psychic energy" in this case, but that's hardly going to be the only operating principle involved. It just reminds me of discussing gravity and electromagnetics in the same breath and simply dismissing one or the other because its effects are not immediately noticeable at a certain point in time.


Meh. To the majority of the Eldar, all materials are psychically malleable. It only becomes a worry when you consider wraithbone to be solid ectoplasm, or in essence to be as such.

I meant that its psychic malleability is a weakness when one confronts such enemies as have psykers, are otherwise well-versed in warp "physics," or have some means of negating the "advantage" of such a great amount of psionic-based tech. This as opposed to the manipulation of "normal" reality.

Atherakhia
15-09-2006, 15:59
wraithbone is a psychic-conduit polymer.
eldaril was kinda like mythril

Kage2020
15-09-2006, 16:49
I have the RT book and the red book after... No mention of this stuff?
Have you got the right game system.

and the rest of you lot... where did you hear of this substance?
I don't have a bad memory, but it's a tad much to be asking me to remember the specific source of this background, though the memory is quite distinct. Heck, it could have even come from a painting guide produced at the day.

If anyone can remember the source, then let Quin 242 know! I've asked about on Black Library in the hopes that someone there can remember, or one of the authors can pop in with a mention, though I somewhat doubt it.


That's actually more amusing than the explanation for Orkish skin tone.
Hence the painting guide possibility, above.


I figured that was the intent, but I wanted to make my own position clear--mechanisms operate on many more principles than "plug it in."
Fair enough. In other words, just because they have a magical energy source doesn't mean that physical science is bypassed as a result of this. No power fields, in other words! :p


I meant that its psychic malleability is a weakness when one confronts such enemies as have psykers, are otherwise well-versed in warp "physics,"...
The idea of non-Eldar manipulation wraithbone is an interesting premise. Not sure what to think of it, other than to say that none spring to mind other than the Old Ones themselves! ;) (This is not to say that the Old Ones created wraithbone!)


...or have some means of negating the "advantage" of such a great amount of psionic-based tech.
I've always wondered how annoying it would be for the Eldar to fight against a Pariah army when you consider the background as distinct from the wargame. (Although to be fair I'm not sure of the wargame approach to what happens when this occurs.)


wraithbone is a psychic-conduit polymer.
eldaril was kinda like mythril
Indeed, although some people would arguing your first one, Atherakhia... :D

Kage

Quin 242
15-09-2006, 18:00
While we are on the topic (sort of), what ever became of Madeuperil alloy?

I find it amusing that there is a discussion of the properties of a substance that no one can substantiate was ever devised? I went back through all the literature I have (all the RT books forward as well as White Dwarfs from before 40K started) and while I can't say that I read every word, I did a fast check thru the eldar articles and I didn't find this stuff.

So the topic SHOULD be: If there were such a thing as Eldaril, then should we put it into any fluff at all?

I'm sure I sound like an ass to some degree but really, this stuff doesn't exist in any of the current, or past, fluff.

There has been some interesting discussion on the properties of wraithbone tho so still worth a read.

Kage2020
15-09-2006, 19:11
So the topic SHOULD be: If there were such a thing as Eldaril, then should we put it into any fluff at all?
Eldaril did exist, I'm afraid. Just because you don't have access to the resources doesn't change that, Quin 242. If no-one can remember the source? That doesn't mean that it wasn't there. Again, the quote in my signature is appropriate.

The substance was there.

Of course, that doesn't mean that the discussion on the properties of wraithbone is devalued. It just means that we cannot remember the source of a specific quote. What a surprise. Despite the "librarian" tendency of Warseer and other forums, people just don't have ready access to the material in question.

Personally I don't believe the twoddle about the "mausoleum" approach to the Infinity Circuit and I know where that stuff comes from!

Kage

Chainsworded Codpiece
15-09-2006, 20:13
Eldaril did exist, I'm afraid. Just because you don't have access to the resources doesn't change that, Quin 242. If no-one can remember the source? That doesn't mean that it wasn't there. Again, the quote in my signature is appropriate.

Kage

Hmmm, I think I remember this "eldaril" being mentioned once. It wasn't in the RT book. Nor do my surving dubba-digit WDs have it (unless I missed the mention).

Two possibilities-

1. Was it used as a term in one of the write-ups for early Eldar Titans, in the old Adeptus Titanicus supps. in WD #100-odd to #100-odd? That's possible, as I don't think the full Craftworld/wraithbone thang came about until WD#100-teen-to-twenty-something.

And I've lost all those issues, of course.

2. Was the term used in passing in The First Book of the Astronomican?
I never owned that, and skimmed through it all of once...so I don't remember.

Kage2020
16-09-2006, 14:41
As to being in Adeptus Titanicus? Again, it was in reference to the 40k-scale miniatures...

The First Book of the Astronomican was probably after my time, so probably not.

Kage

Chainsworded Codpiece
17-09-2006, 02:22
The First Book of the Astronomican was probably after my time, so probably not.


What? It came out in 1987, I think. You're still alive, aren't you?

Aren't you?! :eek:

<dun-dun-DUUUUNN>

Seriously, let's not get too worried whether or not we can find out the provenance of this substance. I think, as mature individuals, we can assume a) Kage is not lying that he's seen a mention, or b)Kage is not lying, and is almost entirely sure he's seen a mention, but it could be that he (and I) are mistaken.

However, it is LIKELY that there was a mention of some Unobtanium-type substance the Eldar used before they posited the whole Wraithbone thing. "Eldaril" may have not been the name for it, but...like I said, I think I remember this too.

I mean, really, am I confusing it for something I read in MERP again?;)

Kage2020
17-09-2006, 03:39
On this forum, if someone cannot remember then the common interpretation is that you're being an arrogant, pretentious little bar-steward... Well, this forum and others at the moment. :S

Kage

Sephiroth
17-09-2006, 09:58
I've read it. Back in UK WD 138, reference to why their painting their Guardian squads with blue-armour... I'd quote the exact sentence, but the WD ain't handilynearby currently.

Kage2020
17-09-2006, 13:59
WD138? Well, that's a reference, so no longer will I be considered as the previous post. Well, at least for eldaril. On the other hand, are you sure that it is WD138? That seems a tad late, since it is post-WD127...

Kage