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number6
14-09-2006, 20:43
Lots of talk on the forums here about cheesy armies and/or cheesy combos and/or cheesy weapons.

Let's turn the question around for a change.

Are there any 40K armies that you feel are particularly hobbled? Or difficult to play? Or almost impossible to make "tournament competitive"? (Whatever that means. I wouldn't mind knowing what "tournament competitive" means to you all.)

I've been playing Daemonhunters (with an occasionally allied Seraphim unit from the Witch Hunters) exclusively, and I often hear that this is an army that just cannot play The Big Games. I admit, I have lots of trouble against highly armoured foes. There is a distinct lack of heavy weaponry (there are no squad-based heavy weapons at all!) and mobility (no transports for our signature troops beyond risky deep-striking or expensive heavy support land raiders). This combination can be incredibly difficult to overcome, especially against a foe that is prepared to exploit either or both of these shortcomings.

And finally, any investments in GKs and/or GKTs (or those terribly expensive land raider tanks) leave us outnumbered by 2:1, 3:1, 4:1, or even more!

On the upside, the DH can take IG or WH allies to help fill in the gaps, and we have, in my opinion, the single best basic trooper in the game in the form of the power-armoured Grey Knight. (3+ armour save, STR 6 and True Grit with their standard NFW and storm bolters.... Yummy!) True, they are very expensive per model, but I can tell you from experience they are worth every point spent. GKs can outshoot foes that are superior to them in close combat and kick the @ss off of foes that can outshoot them.

All in all, this is a very difficult army to do well with. I never hear of any DH armies in GW tournies, and maybe there's a reason for that? I feel that victories with my DH are well-earned indeed. But are we really that bad?

Simsandwich
14-09-2006, 20:48
Orks.
"OH BUT YOUR MISSILES COST 5 POINTS! AND ARE ASSAULT!"
"BS 2, 24" Range."
That and the fun factor.

Nabeshin1106
14-09-2006, 20:52
I agree with number6. I have a DH/Guard army, and I find it hard to win quite a bit of the time. Armies that I utterly crush with my Tyranids present quite a few diffuculties for my DH army. I've decided that they are the army I have just because i love the fluff/models. I don't think I'm gonna expand on them anymore, but they are fun.

Kamin_Majere
14-09-2006, 20:55
Least Cheesy army ever

(Using current codex)
HQ
Farseer: (with eldritch storm singing spear ghost helm and both runes)

Troops
10 x dire avengers (exarch with dire sword and pistol)
10 x dire avengers (exarch with dire sword and pistol)
10 x dire avengers (exarch with dire sword and pistol)
10 x dire avengers (exarch with dire sword and pistol)
10 x dire avengers (exarch with dire sword and pistol)
10 x dire avengers (exarch with dire sword and pistol)

Fast attack
1 x Vyper (plain old shruicannon kind)

Heavy Support
3 x Shadow weavers
3 x Shadow Weavers
3 x Shadow Weavers

comes in around 1500 points hand has little hope to beat anything even marginally well put together:p

Cheese is a relative term. Eldar can be constructed to the point that nothing can beat the army. If i know who i'm playing and have time to write an appropriate list (barring a force majeur) theres no way i will lost. But on the other had the eldar army can also sport the most crappy army lists out there. The one i just listed would be killed by a single heavy bolter dev squad:p

Most armies are the same way. You can tool them out or you can make them suck, its really always up to the player;)

BrainFireBob
14-09-2006, 21:06
Kroot Mercs or Thousand Sons (pure, none of this "tzeentch-dedicated but from the main 'dex" crud).

Pure Daemonhunters is also a difficult list to use.

AtlantianWarrior
14-09-2006, 21:07
Hey number6. I have to agrre with you about the DH being one of the hardest armies to play. For the reasons that you stated. Are bas troop is 1 1/2 time more expensive than the rest. For every one that goes down it is that much harder for us to do the job.

I also believe that it is play style of the DH that make them hard to play. Most armies allow their troops to have special weapons as in plasma and what not. We on the other had have to have IST to do that. We can hold are own in shooting and CC but that is when we are facing armies that do one better than the other.

I was the only player in my last tournament that was playing DH, most where either chaos,marines, or eldar. I went 1/1/1 I would say not bad. One thing I think DH excel at is the objective games. We cane use what we have to its best use.

number6
14-09-2006, 21:29
One thing I think DH excel at is the objective games. We cane use what we have to its best use.
That can be the case, true. Once I figured out Cities of Death, for example, I started doing really well with my DH. If it wasn't for a series of early losses to a very tough Death Guard opponent, I would have had the best record of our summer series. As it was, even with those early black marks, I still came in 2nd. But that DG player -- heavily armoured and very mobile -- had me beat more often than I beat him.

Cover is huge. It's much more difficult to win -- sometimes outright impossible -- when there is little terrain. A couple of the standard missions are essentially impossible to do better than a draw at, too.

VetSgtNamaan
14-09-2006, 21:34
Feral Orks. They get massacred alot but what the hell boar riding orks racing across the battle field is where it is at I say. At least until the new DA codex comes out ;)

Da Reddaneks
14-09-2006, 21:48
least cheesy is ...orks.

But i pray to gork (or mork, i forget which) that a year from now Beakies every where are complaining about orks!!! ohhhhhhhh how sweet it will be to hear the whining of the beakies!

Insane Psychopath
14-09-2006, 21:49
Pure Grey Knights. Need I say more.

Lack mobilty, anti tank...... when ever I fought them (no matter what army) they last for TWO turns with me not having a single lost... well maybe now & then, but that due to Plasma gun over heating.

IP

jfrazell
14-09-2006, 21:56
Kroot mercs.

Guard with warrior weapons

groundpounder orks (notice a trend here).

Da Reddaneks
14-09-2006, 22:32
Kroot mercs.
have to strongly disagree with that one. Kroots ability to infiltrate the entire army 1d6 inches closer when combined with the getting to reroll who goes first and fleet can fit into the cheese catagory pretty easily. the entire army can be in hand to hand on turn one before the other guys gets to do anything. if there was a cheese gun, then the kroot cheese gun wouldnt have a trigger lock.

UnRiggable
14-09-2006, 22:36
Okay this thread proves that 'Cheesiness' for you guys is a matter of simply what's hard to kill. Sure, some things are unfair, but Cheese armies aren't hard to kill, they focus on one type of weapon / warrior and get as many of these as possible. We've all seen the IW list with nine obliterators or the Chaos lord with infiltrate and daemonic flight. The first is cheese. Number 2, less so. Autocannons aren't cheese either. However, three dreadnoughts and nine Land Speeder Tornado's are.
So an anti-cheese army would have a diverse amount of units in it. Like maybe an HQ, Two Elites, Fast Attack and Heavy Support, and Three Troops, all of which are different.

Latro_
14-09-2006, 22:41
Orks are the hardest list to cheese out.

also Thousand sons.

However by no means are these two armies unable to win games, they just seem to have less viable options which leads to pretty samey lists and also require extra brain matter and luck to use.

GrimZAG
15-09-2006, 08:16
Daemon Hunters are probably hard to use because they are focused on killing daemons, i mean, what else uses an invulnerable save in mass hordes.

Autobot HQ
15-09-2006, 08:31
The worst thing is, if a pure GK army faces a hardcore deamon bomb they actually DON'T do well - Time's I've beaten a friend of mines GK by dropping a couple of units of bloodletters on his face.

Tensor
15-09-2006, 10:43
To me, cheasiness isnt allways about hard to lose with. it is about spotting a tactic in an army list that will give you an advantage, and then focusign your entire army on bending that tactic in such a way that there is little your opponent can do about it.
So - the cheesey kroot merc whole army first turn assault list mentioned above is cheesy - because ther eis nothing you can do about it.

I had a friend who played Saim-hamm with an army consisting almsot entirely of starcannon vypers - because basily he had spotted that against MEQ a starcannon is about the best weapon in the game, and you can use them with vypers in such a way that you can get a lot of shot off while avoiding all incoming fire.

Cheese!

Tensor
15-09-2006, 10:50
So, er, least cheesy? An army with a bit of background thought gone in to it first that is not of the pur "justify a cheesy list" kind, which is then picked to match that thought, regardless of if it turns out to be a very effective army. I have plans for two of those.

Tarquinn
15-09-2006, 11:11
Squats!

You might call them "beardy", though. ;)

grg3d
15-09-2006, 12:08
Strange no one has said Necrons? With the limited troop choice, no special weapons for the units, only one choice that can take war gear; you think they would have made the list by now.

bob syko
15-09-2006, 12:22
Well most of the time I hear people complaining an army is 'cheese' is when they loose to them in which case I would have to say orks because I never win.

LarryS
15-09-2006, 12:28
Depending on who you talk to, necrons are either the least cheesy or most cheesy army in the game.:rolleyes: Cheesy because they can destroy a tank heavy list fairly easily and the WBB rule. Non cheesy because of the lack of troop and wargear choices. Also weak in HtH and not so good vs anything w/ good armor saves.

Tensor
15-09-2006, 12:34
Strange no one has said Necrons? With the limited troop choice, no special weapons for the units, only one choice that can take war gear; you think they would have made the list by now.


tell that to the death guard player I Gaussed to death last night.
Me: right, so I am teleporting this unit out of combat with all these demons.
Him: you are doing WHAT!?!?!?

Latro_
15-09-2006, 12:54
Strange no one has said Necrons? With the limited troop choice, no special weapons for the units, only one choice that can take war gear; you think they would have made the list by now.

Ever played a necron army with nout but warriors and destroyers?
lol there aint nothing bad about troops 3pts more than a marine that are ld10, have basic guns that can destroy land raiders and once wounded get up again on a 4+ :P

Llothlian
15-09-2006, 13:05
Pure SoB are gonna lose every time if it isn't a CoD fight. Not much anti-tank, only average base troops, and no armoured dedicated assault squads.

Forbiddenknowledge
15-09-2006, 13:24
I agree, most armies can be cheesed to extreme, but the Inquisition and ork armies I see are usually the most balanced around, plus, they have to rely more on tactics than most MEQ's.

bob syko
15-09-2006, 13:59
Pure SoB are gonna lose every time if it isn't a CoD fight. Not much anti-tank, only average base troops, and no armoured dedicated assault squads.

In a 1500point army you can fit like 100 sisters in there, surly they would be pretty tough to beat.

Skyth
15-09-2006, 17:25
Let's see...An army isn't cheesy if it
a) Doesn't have any special rules that your opponent doesn't and
b) Doesn't kill Marines well.

Orks have Choppas and are nearly unbreakable-That's cheesy
Daemonhunters have Assassins and lots of special rules-Thus Cheesy

Granted, they are low on the power totem..I've been very successful with my Radical Daemonhunters (Went 6-0 at a mini-GT) that seems to be viewed as the epitome of cheese there... But power level isn't an indication of how cheesy something will be viewed.

Sad, but unfortunately, true.

Gen.Steiner
15-09-2006, 17:30
No army is 'cheesy'.

It's the players who are cheesy.

End of story...!

Eidolon
15-09-2006, 17:42
Pure SoB are gonna lose every time if it isn't a CoD fight. Not much anti-tank, only average base troops, and no armoured dedicated assault squads.


I think you underestimate them. Sisters can give you a hard time in any situation. They certainly excel at cityfight, though.

lockmaster55
15-09-2006, 18:27
I vote Iron warriors hands down, they are far harder to abuse than grey knights which just seam to pown everything they see.

Gen.Steiner
15-09-2006, 18:31
I vote Iron warriors hands down, they are far harder to abuse than grey knights which just seam to pown everything they see.

:eek:

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA!

I hope this is sarcasm...

teh_soldier
15-09-2006, 18:36
Actually, I find Orks to be tougher than Marines.
I've beaten my friend 4 times with my Orks (He plays Ulthwé), but have lost to him dozens of times with Marines.

Personally, i think Cheesiness is relative to the player.
Cheesy player plays non-cheesy army -> Cheesy player will probably win.
Non-cheesy player plays cheesy army -> Non -cheesy player will probably loose.

Thats from personal experiance, however, and my actually be totally wrong.

Gen.Steiner
15-09-2006, 18:41
The thing is that any army can be cheesed up.

The lists themselves are not to blame. The 'fault' is the player's. And that's it. End of story. All armies have strengths that can be capitalised upon, and some have more than others. But no army is inherently cheesy.

jfrazell
15-09-2006, 19:08
Gen. Steiner, while you are correct as a general rule that most lists can be powered up, I must respectfully disagree that kroot mercs are "cheeseable." While they can be min/maxed properly they are way down the power wavelength from lets say Blood Angels or Armored Company.

OTT but one of my top five games ever was with my space puppies against an opponents kroot mercs. We each shot one shot from a heavy weapon and then went at it tooth and nail (literally). Nothing like whirlwinds trying to tank run down mobs of kroot trying to reach a giant center hurley burley of 60 marines and 100 or so kroots. Ah the carnage that day.

glowing in the dark
15-09-2006, 19:18
The thing is that any army can be cheesed up.

The lists themselves are not to blame. The 'fault' is the player's. And that's it. End of story. All armies have strengths that can be capitalised upon, and some have more than others. But no army is inherently cheesy.

Know what you mean.
A friend of mine plays IW,and when whole club is picking on him because of 9 obliterators, he just says:"What, gw is to blame!they allowed 9 obliterators in my army so i would be mad not to use them!"

What's more to say?

Xander-K
15-09-2006, 19:43
Know what you mean.
A friend of mine plays IW,and when whole club is picking on him because of 9 obliterators, he just says:"What, gw is to blame!they allowed 9 obliterators in my army so i would be mad not to use them!"

What's more to say?
well actually, GW allowed him 6 troop squads he could max out and buy no weapon upgrades for, so why not use them? Gw allows a lot of things with army lists, doesn't mean every combination is going to be a balanced/fun list.

Gen.Steiner
15-09-2006, 20:15
Gw allows a lot of things with army lists, doesn't mean every combination is going to be a balanced/fun list.

Exactly. The onus is on the players to be fair, fluffy, or cheesy.

As far as I'm concerned, army lists drawn up for friendly, pick-up games, should be as balanced as possible. Army lists drawn up for tournaments can be as cheesy as you like. Army lists drawn up for games in a gaming group of chums can (and should!) be as varied as possible... as long as you enjoy it.

And, in the end, that's what it's about. If you don't enjoy it, don't play it. Thus, I don't go to tourneys, and I don't cheese up my armies.

UnRiggable
15-09-2006, 23:48
Okay this has been said a million times but it seems to be overlooked:
Cheese is not what's easy to win with. Cheese either owns or gets owned
Cheese is focusing on a single tactic or unit. ONE. That's it. You take that and multiply it by fifteen. That's a cheesy army.
Grey Knights are NOT cheesy. There is no one dominating weapon in their entire arsenal. Iron Warriors, on the other hand, can be decked out to be insane. Consider the following Heavy Support Chunk of a 1500 point IW army:

8 Havocs, 4 Autocannons, Tank Hunters
8 Havocs, 4 Autocannons, Tank Hunters
8 Havocs, 4 Autocannons, Tank Hunters
8 Havocs, 4 Autocannons, Tank Hunters

That adds up to 896 points (if I did math right).

Gen.Steiner
16-09-2006, 08:36
...Consider the following Heavy Support Chunk of a 1500 point IW army:

8 Havocs, 4 Autocannons, Tank Hunters
8 Havocs, 4 Autocannons, Tank Hunters
8 Havocs, 4 Autocannons, Tank Hunters
8 Havocs, 4 Autocannons, Tank Hunters

That adds up to 896 points (if I did math right).

Ooh, I've played against that. It was nasty, especially with the four Oblits...

But, then again, it's the player's choice to take that army, and thus the IW list is not, in itself, cheesy!

BrainFireBob
16-09-2006, 08:44
Y'know, I've always been of the opinion that certain things weren't intended until you reached X points threshold- like the nine Obliterators- at 4000 points, still hard, but not the unwholesome terror they are at 1850.