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TimmyMWD
15-09-2006, 06:41
Hello all,

I would like any advice/help/suggestions I can get for my latest project idea; fielding a Squat army using an exiting 40k army list. The background to the project is this: as I work on my primary hobby (WH Fantasy) I would like a fun, creative army to develop on the side so I don't go insane from painting all my Bretonnian war horses.

The idea of squats appealed to me because they're a race out of left field in the 40k universe, and with the new dwarf minis that just came out I think there are some exciting conversion possibilities. Now I know there have been threads on Squat background before, but do they have a name for themselves? I figure Squat is imperium vernacular and they would refer to themselves as Dawi or something similar.

Anyway, the story line I'd like to develop is that a colony or trader fleet of some sort was far away from the wrath of the Hive Fleets devouring the squat homeworlds. Knowing full well the Imperium was no where to turn they took off towards a quiet corner of the galaxy to be left alone. I'd like to completely redfine the image of the Squat for comp with this army; no wartrikes or silly things like that. When I envision a Squat army I think of lots of mechanization, heavy weapons, but at the same time some fierce close combat warriors.

I'm thinking right now the best list to represent them would be Space Marines. High toughness like dwarfs and a great armor save to represent their high tech status compared to the Imperium, the list has a variety of ranged death, mech, and close combat goodness. If you have any thoughts on a more appropriate list, please let me know.

What I need help the most on would be conversion ideas. I have a vision of a Squat/Dawi being well armored but also wearing some sort of breather/mask/etc. because they would choose a world w/ a barren surface to settle (draw less attention) and they would live out their existence in the holds like they did back on their homeworlds.

As such, I have three ideas for helmets/heads:
#1 Fav: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/acatalog/copy_of_ELYSIAN_DROP_TROOPS.html Elysian Drop Troop Heads w/ Respirators

#2 The helms from the Cadian Infantry w/ Respirators upgrade: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/acatalog/CADIAN_SHOCK_TROOPS.html

#3 http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/acatalog/DEATH_KORPS_OF_KRIEG.html Use some variant of the Death Korps helms

I would greenstuff on long hair and beards of course that would flow out from underneath the helmets

Shoulder pads: Yes or no? I'd prefer to see some shoulder pads, be they cadian or SM perhaps. It would add to the "armored feel" of the squats

Body: I'd like to use the new dwarf bodies. Yes I know the models are split somewhat down the middle, but green stuffing the front (esp since I'm greenstuffing the beards) should more than fill in what is missing.I can't think of other models that would appropriatly fit the size of a Squat.

Any other ideas?

If I am going with the Space Marine list, I'd like to do some truly unique models for both the tanks and the Dreadnought. I'll post more as this idea takes more concrete shape, but any help would be appreciated.

susu.exp
15-09-2006, 08:30
Hello all,

I would like any advice/help/suggestions I can get for my latest project idea; fielding a Squat army using an exiting 40k army list. The background to the project is this: as I work on my primary hobby (WH Fantasy) I would like a fun, creative army to develop on the side so I don't go insane from painting all my Bretonnian war horses.

The idea of squats appealed to me because they're a race out of left field in the 40k universe, and with the new dwarf minis that just came out I think there are some exciting conversion possibilities. Now I know there have been threads on Squat background before, but do they have a name for themselves? I figure Squat is imperium vernacular and they would refer to themselves as Dawi or something similar.

Well, the "The Death of the Squats" thread is still going on (come join us...) and with some "parental pride" I can say that "Varingr" has gained common usage (See said thread for a discussion on the name).


Anyway, the story line I'd like to develop is that a colony or trader fleet of some sort was far away from the wrath of the Hive Fleets devouring the squat homeworlds. Knowing full well the Imperium was no where to turn they took off towards a quiet corner of the galaxy to be left alone. I'd like to completely redfine the image of the Squat for comp with this army; no wartrikes or silly things like that. When I envision a Squat army I think of lots of mechanization, heavy weapons, but at the same time some fierce close combat warriors.

YouŽre on a similar track as we are. Though the extend of mechanization is still under some debate.


I'm thinking right now the best list to represent them would be Space Marines. High toughness like dwarfs and a great armor save to represent their high tech status compared to the Imperium, the list has a variety of ranged death, mech, and close combat goodness. If you have any thoughts on a more appropriate list, please let me know.

I canŽt think of a better list, if weŽre talking "counts as", although the Ork list sometimes gets used.



As such, I have three ideas for helmets/heads:
#1 Fav: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/acatalog/copy_of_ELYSIAN_DROP_TROOPS.html Elysian Drop Troop Heads w/ Respirators

IŽd go with them. The Heads look good and I can see them working for this purpose, more so than the Cadians and Kriegs.


If I am going with the Space Marine list, I'd like to do some truly unique models for both the tanks and the Dreadnought. I'll post more as this idea takes more concrete shape, but any help would be appreciated.

Again: Watch the DOTS thread (better yet, post there). There may be homebrew rules at some point and if you can use both youŽre well off.

La'mour Le Breton
15-09-2006, 11:01
i would keep the wartrikes, heavy armoured and armoured fast attack choices would be sweet for an army that is going to be a little on the slow side. I think the idea of using the space marine stats is a little off, squats (in the fluff at least) are not up to par with space marines. you could however have the squats in some exo-mining-suit, that would kinda be like tau battlesuits(not rule wise) then you could rationalize super strong super tough squats, maybe use only use the terminator armour rules for the mining suit squats, with thunder hammers, replace power fists with drills, and some lightning claw equivilant, plasma cutters? but using basic space marine stats for all squats is rediculous, unless their all in some type of exo-suit. ive thought of using necrons as the base, high tech, low initiative. gauss tech is changed to some type of long range plasma burners. something like that

TimmyMWD
15-09-2006, 15:26
i would keep the wartrikes, heavy armoured and armoured fast attack choices would be sweet for an army that is going to be a little on the slow side. I think the idea of using the space marine stats is a little off, squats (in the fluff at least) are not up to par with space marines. you could however have the squats in some exo-mining-suit, that would kinda be like tau battlesuits(not rule wise) then you could rationalize super strong super tough squats, maybe use only use the terminator armour rules for the mining suit squats, with thunder hammers, replace power fists with drills, and some lightning claw equivilant, plasma cutters? but using basic space marine stats for all squats is rediculous, unless their all in some type of exo-suit. ive thought of using necrons as the base, high tech, low initiative. gauss tech is changed to some type of long range plasma burners. something like that

I don't see how the SM list is that far off. The only stat that is really out of place is the initiative; otherwise it makes sense. Really; if you field any squat force it must be t4, that's a dominant dwarf trait. The high armor save would be concurrent with the fact that squats are more advanced than the Imperium in my opinion.

Here are some Dwarf models that I think have some great conversion opportunities:

http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=Individual&code=99060205110&orignav=300976&ParentID=256107&GameNav=13&ItemNav=301697

Engineer #3 (the one they have pictured in color) with his huge hammer could easily be converted to 40k, maybe that hammer could equal a power fist stat wise.

http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=List_Models&code=301734&orignav=300976&ParentID=256111&GameNav=13

The cannon crewman on the far right has a nice looking alternate helm that could be used for a sergeant or a tank crew perhaps.

Easy E
15-09-2006, 23:04
The only issue I have with Squats using the SM list is that 40K really doesn't need more MEQ (3+ save) armies.

The original squat statline can easily be represnted using Guard with Doctirnes such as Carapace armor, and Hardened Fighters, add in Vox-casters and you are set.

Another option is the Ork list, but that's a bit of a stretch in my mind.

If you must go marines, my favorite was the old Salamander (Armageddon Codex) List as they had a worse I. The make a scout army for the 4+ save. That list is rather fluffy.

Splagbot
15-09-2006, 23:07
Use the Guard list, 5+ saves, Squats had flak armour and lots of big guns, Squats had lots of big guns.

Puffin Magician
15-09-2006, 23:35
The Squat statline can easily be represnted using Guard with Doctirnes...
The Ork list is a bit of a stretch...
If you must go marines, use the Armageddon Codex rules for Salamanders as they had a worse I. Then make a scout army for the 4+ save. That list is rather fluffy.Pretty much what he said. Easy E knows his Squats since he's done quite a bit on developing his own list.

IG are the best bet IMO, I really don't think the Squats deserve Ws4 Bs4 s4 t4 i4 and Ld8; they're just short, grumpy humans.

Fun stuff like the Goliath Mega Cannon and Thunderfire AA Battery could be represented by the Earthshaker and Hydra Platform rules by ForgeWorld.

TimmyMWD
16-09-2006, 01:57
The only issue I have with Squats using the SM list is that 40K really doesn't need more MEQ (3+ save) armies.

The original squat statline can easily be represnted using Guard with Doctirnes such as Carapace armor, and Hardened Fighters, add in Vox-casters and you are set.

Another option is the Ork list, but that's a bit of a stretch in my mind.

If you must go marines, my favorite was the old Salamander (Armageddon Codex) List as they had a worse I. The make a scout army for the 4+ save. That list is rather fluffy.

Good points about the 3+ save. IG are nice but I always saw Squats as having some CC capabilties, that of which the IG sorely lack. Perhps IG list w/ some Grey Knight allies to represent exo suits or the like?

Easy E
16-09-2006, 02:21
I agree with the IG Doctrines and Grey Knight allies for Exo-armor. If you want Exo-armor.

Have you thought of other Varingr (squat) units you want to represent?

La'mour Le Breton
16-09-2006, 04:14
what about space wolfs? that would allow you to use wolf guard for varingr

La'mour Le Breton
16-09-2006, 04:18
old armeggedon salamander codex would be awsome, i dont know if you can still use it though, the biggest problems i have with the normal Space Marine codex is the strength and the initiative, also armour save.
Squat basic stats-- S 3 T 4 I 3 W 1 A 1 Save +4 Ld 8-9, high leadership, but im not sure how high
if only the Ordo Xenos codex came out and let you use alien races as allies like other Ordo codexes do with imperials. then the perfect army list could be made

TimmyMWD
16-09-2006, 05:11
I agree with the IG Doctrines and Grey Knight allies for Exo-armor. If you want Exo-armor.

Have you thought of other Varingr (squat) units you want to represent?

Well, I'm reading through the excellent Varingr thread and I am accomodating my ideas to what you have come up with. However, my main goal remains to provide a 40k counterpoint to the fantasy dwarf army list. Obviously; however, I would like to do it in the style of the Eldar - faint similarities to the Asur but that's it.

For example, I am intrigued with the idea of replicating Runesmiths over to 40k. The idea that Dwarfs scoff at wizardry and instead harness the winds of magic through runes attached to their wepaons has always been a cool concept IMO. Now, rune priests and the like are obviously already taken by the Wolves.

The basic premise of a revered caste/guild of dwarfs (Varingr) harnessing the powers of chaos (the warp) through their weapons can still be maintained. The premise of the Nemesis weapon for GK fits that description to the T. Of course other units could be used to represent this; but the idea of powerful Varingr warriors in mighty suits of armor wielding imbued wepaons is a nice addition to any force IMO.

Other than that I'm not too sure. The troop choices IMO would be ranged based, since although (IMO) Varingr would always aspire to close combat they understand the necessity of ranged weaponry for use against their opponents.

Mech/tanks are a must in my opinion as no Varingr/dwarf force is complete without some products of those bearded engineers! Plus it would be the big method of overcoming their general slowness. That being said, the biker dwarf on trike image really sucks in my opinion and I want to shy away from it in my list.

I'm a big fan of Thanes leading the holds, but what of his fighting style and that of the Hearthguard? Do they range it out or strive to show their martial prowress or simply try and nuke them?

With these ideas I see a few options:

IG w/ GK allies
Daemonhunters w/ conscripted IG
Space Marine force w/ scouts for troops
Daemonhunters w/ conscripted SM (but Inquis stormtroopers for core)

Of course I'm up to any other suggestions people may have.

La'mour Le Breton
16-09-2006, 08:34
what about sisters of battle? they have the same tech as Space marines, but not the super strength.

Splagbot
16-09-2006, 11:44
It all comes down to the save, Squats never had Power Armour, just Flak Armour.

The only problem with using the Guard list is that the characters aren't as tough as they should be for Squats.

TimmyMWD
16-09-2006, 17:12
It all comes down to the save, Squats never had Power Armour, just Flak Armour.

The only problem with using the Guard list is that the characters aren't as tough as they should be for Squats.

I'm starting to think a scout based SM army would be the most viable option. It elimintes the one gross problem about fielding SM for Varingr - that power armor save. However, carapace armor or the equivalent is totally believable for Varingr.

Furthermore, the premise of scout based army works too. Varingr would send out infantry to advance on the enemy position, and then once they have identified the enemy call in strong reinforcements. I could forsee Varingr deep striking or drop poding heavy armor in and blowign things away with ease.

Bregalad
16-09-2006, 22:31
Here is a list of existing lines of squat miniatures:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39295

TimmyMWD
17-09-2006, 06:30
Okay preliminary list idea would be troop choices filled with scouts, fast attack would be some land speeders. This would represent forward forces seeking to encounter the enemy. Maybe some whirlwinds for long range artillery.

Teleporting termies would represent the elite Varingr warriors emerging from underneath along with drop pod dreads to represent battle suits doing the same thing.

For heavy support perhaps a pread along with the whirlwinds.

Thoughts?

La'mour Le Breton
18-09-2006, 00:43
i think the only way to make a truely squat army, is to give the their own list, i WOULD suggest that we start emailing GW everyday, but i dont think they care, they have their own scedule and if the squats are going to be released (rereleased) GW will do it when they have it sceduled

Sarge
18-09-2006, 01:17
Those squat models from the second link are pretty cool looking.
http://www.hasslefreeminiatures.co.uk/range.php?range_id=25

The Squats once had they're own codex, it's just no one bought it or the models so eventually they stopped making them.

The Inedible
18-09-2006, 01:35
I wrote a post up for the GW forums, when I used to post there long ago, to the effect that I'd discovered some squat concept art by a third party with exo suits not looking unlike Tau battlesuits which had been created a few years before the Tau codex came out. Wheather or not GW was influenced by this I cannot say, but it got me thinking that perhaps you could use Tau rules to represent the squats. True there is quite a bit of diversion from their initially imperial rules and designs, but the list comes with effective stand ins for exo armor in battlesuits (perhaps more plentiful than you'd like, but you can interchange them with bikes). And on the topic of the firewarriors having inferior close combat capabilities to the squats, you need look no further than O' shovah, commander farsight, to add extra cc capabilities to your line troopers.

I've entertained the thought for awhile, though a conversion with standard tau breastplates may be hard on fantasy dwarves and their ilk it's seemed like a fitting force to me. And as far as Farsight went I'd always invisioned a battlesuit/exo suit with a large drill bit on one arm.

Sarge
18-09-2006, 03:57
I'm not sure what Codex you have, but in the new Tau Empire Codex, the Farsight enclaves lost alot of steam, by making the Ork Fighter's rule, exactly that, specific only to orks. Ontop of which, they no longer get the increase in WS.

La'mour Le Breton
18-09-2006, 10:54
i dont have the eye of terror codex, but i looked through it a while back and it had alot of variation, maybe that would work

Easy E
18-09-2006, 21:53
Your concept with the Scout army was strong.

The problem with the Tau is that they can't fight H2H like a true Varingr should!

As you said Grey Khights, Terminator armor, and Dreads will make fine battle suit stand-ins and with the proper modeling be very cool. Just because you are using Dread rules, does not mean it has to look like a Dread.

Also, if you want to get really crazy, model your land speeders as a type of flying battle suit (assuming your theme is going to be batle-suits).

Sarge
19-09-2006, 00:38
Have you thought of using a Catachan codex,?

La'mour Le Breton
19-09-2006, 03:38
not enough heavy support, not tough enough.
just asking, how different are the demiurg from the squats, i know about that whole time travel thingy, with the nids eating all the squats so on and so on. but aren't the demiurg like not as goofy? their like more serious right? also how does their technology differ?

Sarge
19-09-2006, 04:29
They invented Ion tech, ontop of which they're also psychic, and part of the Tau Empire, though they are only mentioned in Battle Fleet.

Hellebore
19-09-2006, 04:41
Okay preliminary list idea would be troop choices filled with scouts, fast attack would be some land speeders. This would represent forward forces seeking to encounter the enemy. Maybe some whirlwinds for long range artillery.

Teleporting termies would represent the elite Varingr warriors emerging from underneath along with drop pod dreads to represent battle suits doing the same thing.

For heavy support perhaps a pread along with the whirlwinds.

Thoughts?

Whilst the scout army would work, it does leave you with stats that don't make a whole lot of sense.
S4, I4, BS4.

However, you could justify it with a little bit of modelling by giving them all 'mini' exosuits. By putting a simple exoframe around their arms, just a long bar on each side of the arm with a small servo in the middle, like this:
___________o____________

You can make them stronger with faster reflexes. Put targetting cameras on their shoulders and sights on their guns and you can explain their BS as well.

Apart from that, I think the scout army would work well.

Hellebore

TimmyMWD
19-09-2006, 05:58
Actually the basic dwarf stat line is bs4. Strength is arguable for the hard labor they do in the hold, etc. That leaves only I4. And really; scout based force is the best fit you're going to find. Every list is going to have issues (IG low T, Orcs low BS), but I think the SM scout based force is the best blend of strengths and shortcomings.

Hellebore
19-09-2006, 06:06
Actually the basic dwarf stat line is bs4. Strength is arguable for the hard labor they do in the hold, etc. That leaves only I4. And really; scout based force is the best fit you're going to find. Every list is going to have issues (IG low T, Orcs low BS), but I think the SM scout based force is the best blend of strengths and shortcomings.

Are you talking about Fantasy dwarfs? Because their standard BS is 3, and the highest they get is 5 (on master engineers).

As you say, you can provide any reason for the stats, hard labour, exo suits, etc. However in 40k, there is a HUGE gap between S3 and S4, and squats are just short tough humans afterall.

It is probably the best list to use, but I have a hard time seeing squats as S4 or I4 without some obvious augmentation.

Hellebore

TimmyMWD
19-09-2006, 12:59
Touche - I've been playing my High Elves too long. I agree about the s4/s3 gap, I'm thinking I'll use various gear on them to represent technological augmentation to get them to s4 either through armor or weapon modifications.

Easy E
19-09-2006, 18:43
Salamanders have an I2 (at least in the Armageddon Codex). That's why I recommend those rules. BS4 and S4 is possible.

The Exo-suits is a good idea when you combine it with the earlier idea of battlesuits. It provides an overall feel to the army/list.

TimmyMWD
19-09-2006, 20:29
Well I'd like to take this army to tourny on occassion, and unfortuantly the Salamanders have to use the trait system now and not their old codex from Armageddon.

Xisor
19-09-2006, 20:43
not enough heavy support, not tough enough.
just asking, how different are the demiurg from the squats, i know about that whole time travel thingy, with the nids eating all the squats so on and so on. but aren't the demiurg like not as goofy? their like more serious right? also how does their technology differ?
___________________________


They invented Ion tech, ontop of which they're also psychic, and part of the Tau Empire, though they are only mentioned in Battle Fleet.


Good lord!

The time travel suggestion was mine (ie not official...yet!), and at that a wild one! Their tech, as it stands, is almost entirely different given that Squats historically speaking stemmed from humans and have unnavoidably human (as Varignr are indeed human, after all) technology whilst Demiurg are aliens, and not human in the slightest.

Demiurg are the folks who sold the Tau Ion cannon tech, have loose affilliations and accords, even alliances, with the Tau Empire, but as a race are not *part* of the Tau Empire. Much unlike the Kroot. There's not a mention of the Demiurg being psychic, that'd be the Niccassar you're thinking of, who're perhaps most akin to 'Psychic Polar Bears'...

Easy E: Salamanders had I3, not I2.

The Scout Army, I agree, is a particularly neat idea. Restrictive in parts, but not *too* bad. For Fast Attacks(as the Squats weren't *that* into FA, and trikes/bikes really were a bit 'not to everyone's tastes...') you can simply dump Jump-pack-less Assault Marines into a Land Raider. A *bit* iffy due to the Power Armour, but you're allowed to invent something new too...

Xisor

PS If anyone cares to have a peek at my latest thoughts and updates on my vision of the Demiurg, see the article when following this link:
http://savefile.com/download/86793?PHPSESSID=b2e2df80cf899bc831f7b9dbc1335f6d

La'mour Le Breton
20-09-2006, 04:14
If you were making a demiurg army list, I can see using the space marine codex. You would simply have an elite army will all the demiurg in exo mining suits modified for battle of course.
Ive had the idea for the necron codex. high tech, tough troopers. have the gauss tech changed to mining tech plasma or melta burners. something like that. consider basic necrons to be droids.

Xisor
20-09-2006, 11:50
Ive had the idea for the necron codex. high tech, tough troopers. have the gauss tech changed to mining tech plasma or melta burners. something like that. consider basic necrons to be droids.

I heartily agree. You *could* do this with Marines too, of course, but with Necrons you really already have a vague 'feel' that way. An interesting way to approach it would be to have the 'Necrons' all mounted on bigger bases than they should be, and modelling the warriors as 'big machines' rather than man-sized-bots.

It's a very interesting way to approach a proxy army

Xisor