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Ratchet
15-09-2006, 13:55
Hi,

ive never played Beasts before, but a friend of mine mentioned that a beasts of chaos army made purely of Tuskgor chariots (20 in 2000 pts) and a Great bray shaman would be a pretty interesting list. I like the idea of an all chariot army, but what would the upside and downside of this?

Pravus
15-09-2006, 14:03
1. Vulnerable to artillery, cannons in particular.
2. No static combat resolution, so you'll need to break units on the charge.
3. Fast cavalry and other mobile troops can disrupt your well ordered assault
4. Strength 7 characters will be your doom
5. Leadership 7 means a 50/50 chance of passing any psychology test so undead, daemons and other generally scary stuff might be a problem (but then it is for beastmen anyway!)

Shaitan
15-09-2006, 14:09
And it is not very fun to play against IMO...

Pravus
15-09-2006, 14:51
One thing else to bear in mind - its your typical noobkiller army. Inexperienced players will panic when faced with this army - experienced players, however, will see it as a massacre waiting to happen.

Atrahasis
15-09-2006, 14:55
I'm taking one to Heat One of the GT. Not completely chariots, 16 in total with furies and spawn.

Psychology is not a problem - every chariot gets a reroll, and so passes 84% of the time.

The new "Enemy in the Way" rules make it more difficult to use than before, but I've only lost against Lord Kroak.

Pravus
15-09-2006, 15:10
I forgot about the MoCU - my bad! Its interesting to note that your army isn't ALL chariots with the spawn and furies having obvious roles.

haberova
15-09-2006, 20:02
It seems like combat resolution would still get you with leadership 7.

giner
15-09-2006, 20:22
The best chariot army is a dead chariot army. If this is for a tournament then yeah it could work even skinks can't really get round that many units. But an RAF or any Brets will batter you and well deserved.

It is a very dull army think what peopl say about Brets that's what the will say about you.

As for advice take fast stuff like more chariots herds and furies.

shartmatau
15-09-2006, 20:47
I know it would look very cool. Especially if you make each chariot look unique, with extravagant banners and each rider could look characterful instead of like a rank and file.

I wouldn't want to play it but I would love to make it and to see it.
Cheers.

zak
15-09-2006, 22:58
Ouch! That's gonna hit your pocket. 20 chariots equals 300!!!
An interesting choice of army. You will score about 1/10 for army composition and be frowned upon. But then again it would be good to see in action and to see how it fared against experienced players.

Atrahasis
15-09-2006, 23:14
The best chariot army is a dead chariot army. If this is for a tournament then yeah it could work even skinks can't really get round that many units. But an RAF or any Brets will batter you and well deserved. Tell that to the two Bret players I have creamed.



It seems like combat resolution would still get you with leadership 7Combat res only matters if you lose combat. With Xd6+X S5 mimpact hits, plus the S5 tuskgors and S6 Bestigor, that doesn't happen.


Especially if you make each chariot look uniqueEvery chariot in my army is different. Its made from every type of chariot you can think of, with pump wagons, scraplaunchers and various bits from nfantry sprues (banners, icons) thrown in for measure.


Ouch! That's gonna hit your pocket. 20 chariots equals 300!!!The army so far has cost me 60 for 16 chariots. I already had the furies and the spawn so I haven't counted them.

shartmatau
16-09-2006, 02:15
thats very cool to make each chariot unique. I would love to see some pictures of it. Cheers for making a cool army, remember this everyone.

The better your models look, the more leeway people give you for an unusual army composition. At least thats how I see it.

MarcoPollo
16-09-2006, 02:29
I think it would be a great army to construct but would be pretty boring to play over and over again.

The gret thing about chaos it the diversity of tactics. Having 20 or so chariots really limits your army to a simple point and click style. For me, I think tuskagor chariots are the best chariots for the point cost.

But it is a tactical bore after a few games. Much like a gunline can be fun for a while, it too will begin to get old. On the plus side you can really learn alot about all the variances that go along with chariot warfare.

Perhaps you should read some posts of TK with alot of chariots and see what they say.

Lyquis
16-09-2006, 05:34
I was thinking about a similar army but I was planning to use mortals. So far I have heard nothing but negative feedback. I think before I shell out any money I am going to proxy some. I think such a list would be fun to play and fun to play against. Although in that I seem to be in the minority.:(

Spaco
16-09-2006, 14:57
Combat res only matters if you lose combat. With Xd6+X S5 mimpact hits, plus the S5 tuskgors and S6 Bestigor, that doesn't happen.


It doesn't make a huge difference, but the Bestigors are now only S5 on the charge with 7th. :)

MarcoPollo
16-09-2006, 21:00
It doesn't make a huge difference, but the Bestigors are now only S5 on the charge with 7th. :)

How is that? I thought only mounted units have the strength reduced due to a great weapon on a charge. Am I missing something here?

metro_gnome
16-09-2006, 22:21
mounted models... and this bestigor is mounted...

Atrahasis
16-09-2006, 22:23
Not really, the "model" is the chariot, and it isn't mounted :D

(No, I'm not going to pull that one)

Wolfgang
16-09-2006, 23:56
Let's put it this way:
I've only seen chariots (any number) do actually useful things in Warhammer twice.
Once when a basic CW chariot held up a Bretonnian lance with a hero and 5 knights for 3 turns, the other time when the Dwarf player freaked and decided to fire at the approaching Goblin chariot, instead of targeting the real threat........
Other tha that, chariots are pretty to look at and can be fun to build, but not too terribly useful.

Atrahasis
17-09-2006, 00:50
What else can reduce a 9 man Brettonian Lance to 1 model reliably other than 4 chariots?

I did it to every lance in the non-RAF Bret army I have played against.

More than 3 chariots all charging at once is certain death for any unit.

eldrak
17-09-2006, 00:59
1. Vulnerable to artillery, cannons in particular.
<< only complete gunlines have a chance to make a dent in the aproaching horde and once the chariots has crossed the board the can jump from machine to machine.

2. No static combat resolution, so you'll need to break units on the charge.
<< that's what chariots do.

3. Fast cavalry and other mobile troops can disrupt your well ordered assault
<<each unit can only hold up so many chariots, and those that can are generally pretty weak when getting hit by a chariot. (after their first combat+overrun).

4. Strength 7 characters will be your doom
<< you can charge the flanks or avoid them altogether, most armies don't have more than one or two (or none) of these guys.

5. Leadership 7 means a 50/50 chance of passing any psychology test so undead, daemons and other generally scary stuff might be a problem (but then it is for beastmen anyway!)
<<only tests you do is for fear when charging (with MoU) and perhaps for terror. Never send one chariot where two could have done twice the damage :)

Frankly
17-09-2006, 10:40
I think it will be a very hard army to come up against.

No, artillery won't bother you that much, not with your mobility and charge range + flyers. How many amries can actually take the kind of fire power to actually deal with your list before it gets into combat, then how many armylsts actually do take 4 cannons. I actually take 8 B.throwers in my dwarves list and still would have trouble stopping a large amount of chariots hitting my battle line.

multipul charges will deal with static CR, hero's will help, so could ambushing troops and chaos hounds.

People will have to deal with 15 to 20!!!!! chariots and 7th Ed has delt with mobile str7 characters, meaning you have the advantage of mobility, charge range and picking your targets against str7 unmounted targets.

All beastmen armies have low L.d., there's ways around it.

I like the idea of an all chatiot army ramaging over the chaos wastelands, I think for alot of opponants, they're find it refeshing to play against a different type of armylist.

laughingman
28-09-2006, 00:35
my 12 chariot tzeench army will beat it lol.

haberova
28-09-2006, 02:29
Combat res only matters if you lose combat. With Xd6+X S5 mimpact hits, plus the S5 tuskgors and S6 Bestigor, that doesn't happen.


It happens all the time. So you'd only have to hit and wound with both tuskgors, hit and wound with the bestigor, and roll at least a 2 and wound with those 2 attacks to hope to tie a unit with outnumber, banner, and 3 ranks. Oh and hope they don't have a musician to win combat on a tie. Y ou would lose combat all the time. I run beasts of chaos and the chariots suck. I'd be embarrassed to lose to an all chariot army, because no one should.

Frankly
28-09-2006, 06:37
Not other that, but if your getting ambushing hounds flank or rare charging, then your negating ranks and in some cases outnumbering.

aaglo
29-09-2006, 06:18
That 16-chariot army sure seems intimidating... It would be fun to watch a game between that army and an experienced... let's say dwarf player (fast vs slow)... :)

Yasmin
10-10-2006, 10:12
Combat res only matters if you lose combat. With Xd6+X S5 mimpact hits, plus the S5 tuskgors and S6 Bestigor, that doesn't happen.


It happens all the time. So you'd only have to hit and wound with both tuskgors, hit and wound with the bestigor, and roll at least a 2 and wound with those 2 attacks to hope to tie a unit with outnumber, banner, and 3 ranks. Oh and hope they don't have a musician to win combat on a tie. Y ou would lose combat all the time. I run beasts of chaos and the chariots suck. I'd be embarrassed to lose to an all chariot army, because no one should.

Sure, but with 16 chariots, he can assign about 3 of them against every more important unit, and 1 per every other.
With 3 chariots he should break almost every unit. He has approximately 14 impact hits (11 + 3 from scythes) plus additional attacks from crew and mounts.

I have used 6 in my High Elves, and they're deadly.

Vampires could get problematic, though. if he won't kill the unit on charge, those chariots are propably lost.

samw
10-10-2006, 15:32
I'd like to see it against a necro-horde. Just swell zombies to 24 or more/unit and they should be ok against 3 chariots. Anyway I think all this really demonstrates is that the chariots are too cheap. Just removing the mark is all that's required.

gortexgunnerson
10-10-2006, 21:23
It is a difficult army to deal will but the vast number of chariots is over the top, their seems little 20 can do that 12 could not. I would cut the chariots down to 12 and then use all the spare points on ambushers and other such nastyness. Havent looked at new magic rules so don't know whether you can still do this but I used to love using howler winds on chariot heavy armies preventing them from coming near my wizards. We decided that if the chariot was already in difficult terrain it couldn't move as cannot volentarily move through it, so used to run wizards up to chariots and cast it to lock in position. Was very funny to me! (not sure if this was the best rules interpretation but its what we played).

Lots of chariots plus ambushers is very hard to deal with. Another good tactic is to take a 25 model cheap herd and put i across the battle field in front of your chariots. Doesn't stop artillery but stops units like handgunners from shootign at them and forces you to shoot the skirmishers with weapons that require live of sight (Which is true of cannons but if you have a chariot behind its not hard to bounce it through) but it buggers up quite alots of shooting and magic missile.

The true powerhouse beast army to fear is over the top chariots but uses all the other nasties in the list, herds and hounds being a big part of this. Thiers just too many targets. But in tournment play the large amounts of terrain can turn an army that looks great on a club night to an easy mop up for your oppenet

sephiroth87
10-10-2006, 22:19
I like the chariot list. Like anything that's skewed to one unit or tactic, you'll occasionally run across a list that can pound yours without any skill involved. But for the most part, you can do ok with that many chariots.

I think you could do reliably well against heavy infantry armies not immune psychology.

However, really quick armies and ones immune to psychology will either hit you first or hold a charge and grind the chariots down. That doesn't mean you can't beat them, but it does mean that they'll give you a harder time than most armies.

Atrahasis
10-10-2006, 22:50
Undead, surprisingly, are very easy to beat with the chariot army. There is no chance that an Undead army can roll insane courage and trap your chariots in combat, rather they evaporate from combat resolution. They're also low toughness, low armour save, except for Black Knights which cannot be raised and tend to be in units wide wnough to accommodate plenty of chariots but small enough not to do well against impact hits.

The rules of use for the chariot army:

No chariot charges without at least one backup. There are exceptions, but they are very few (only units with no ranks and no save).
If possible, always charge with 4 chariots. With 5-wide ranks, this is always possible unless there are other units or terrain in the way.
Keep the chariots bunched together at first, and then spread out as you approach the enemy. This allows you to fill gaps easily while you are at range, and then spread out to open up the charging lanes and prevent "enemy in the way".
Do NOT charge with the spawn except against missile troops and war machines. Instead move across the front of units to block their advance. Angle the spawn so that if charged, the enemy will present the best frontage for a chariot charge and if the spawn is destroyed (very rare in one round of combat) the overrun will lead the enemy to ruin.

Terrain will be your downfall. The list is not unbeatable by any means, and the more terrain there is, the less chance you will have of winning.

Leafing through the O&G book today, an 8 orc chariot army might do quite well, with 4 snotling pump wagons in place of spawn. The lack of psychology rerolls may be a thorn in the side though.

Morgrin
11-10-2006, 00:18
Such an army in a tornament would have a massacre waiting to happen in the form of a Wood Elf Army moving forests around.

greymeister
11-10-2006, 01:16
Wouldn't all it take to beat them with undead be a new zombie unit summoned behind the chariot and then charging it from behind? If the chariot ever loses combat it's destroyed.

Frankly
11-10-2006, 07:29
Undead, surprisingly, are very easy to beat with the chariot army. There is no chance that an Undead army can roll insane courage and trap your chariots in combat, rather they evaporate from combat resolution. They're also low toughness, low armour save, except for Black Knights which cannot be raised and tend to be in units wide wnough to accommodate plenty of chariots but small enough not to do well against impact hits.



Not to be mean, but thats a joke. And We've been through this on your armylist post.

A well run undead army LOVE's playing against low level leadership and no unit strength, it's heaven!

Your train of thought that you get the charge against everthing on the board is a bogas tactic. Your train of thought that your going to pass all your Leadership tests to charge all your combined charges isn't much better.

Things that much you:

Black knights 16" charge range.

Some characters 16" to 20" charge range(steeds, wolf form, winged, on winged mount).

Dire wolves 18" charge range.

Fell bats 20" charge range.

DANSE and the book of arkhan



Things that negate your charge:

Poor leadership.

Redirection(lots and lots and lots in V.C. armylists)

Ghouls flee re-actions.

And basic rank and file, If I were to be boring I'd let you charge my zombie units of 40 unit strength, but mostly likely I wouldn't.


BoC have to play really well OR pick a well suited units in their armylists to take on 10-14(even 18) P.Dice undead armylists and do well imho and its TOTALLY not hard to do, MoK mino's are brillant against undead armylist for example(MoK mino armlists come to mind because they're a take on all come's armylist that can do really well against undead). Chariots armies just aren't a good match up.

Atrahasis
11-10-2006, 11:10
Your train of thought that you get the charge against everthing on the board is a bogas tactic. Your train of thought that your going to pass all your Leadership tests to charge all your combined charges isn't much better. I speak from experience. I have played 3 different VC armies, and have failed to charge once with one chariot because of fear. The reroll for Undivided makes failure very rare indeeed.


Black knights 16" charge range.

Spawns pin them in place. Its happened. I've seen it.


Some characters 16" to 20" charge range(steeds, wolf form, winged, on winged mount). I haven't faced a flying Undead character yet, but I've faced Balthasar Gelt and a Chaos Lord on Dragon and neither has been in a postion to charge effectively.


Dire wolves 18" charge range. Again, spawn. And I can flee with one chariot and leave them languishing in charge range of other chariots.


Fell bats 20" charge range. Again I can flee. Or hold and laugh as the silly little things fail to wound before countercharging.


DANSE and the book of arkhanI can flee. I can dispel the book easily, and the enemy has to actually GET Danse to start with.


Poor leadership.I get rerolls. Not impervious, but pretty close.


Redirection(lots and lots and lots in V.C. armylists)Small units raised in front of me are free movement.


Ghouls flee re-actions.I would charge a unit of ghouls with one chariot. One chariot that gets stuck ahead of the line because of a failed charge becomes the bait for the next turn's charges.


And basic rank and file, If I were to be boring I'd let you charge my zombie units of 40 unit strength, but mostly likely I wouldn't. 4 chariots will inflict 20+ casualties on a unit of zombies, and the rest will then crumble. What makes you think I would charge such a unit anyway? I certainly wouldn't until I could bring chariots to the flank or rear as well.

You bring up some good points, however I have played against 3 different VC lists and beaten them all. If you are suggetsing that my opponents were poor then I suppose that's your prerogative.

Frankly
11-10-2006, 12:27
Yeah, we all speak from experience, you speak from playing against 3 V.C. armylists ... how can my 18 years of wargaming compare to that.

Honestly, I think your replies look like tactic's you actually don't want to do with an agressive armylist with 12 low L.d. Chariots .... panic checks and a fear causing enemy.

Your going to flee with chariots, pin everything with your spawns and hope his fast characters are in a bad position to charge, excellent tactics. How many times have you seen spawns tarpit B.Knights?

Does it happen every game? If they did I'd start playing an army full of spawns. Did they also tarpit the dire wolves as well in the same round? Awesome.

Chariots fleeing? fanastic! How are you going to get 4 chariots smashing into the front of a zombie unit with chariots fleeing and panic checks, plus fear tests, plus taking charges. Plus the fact that if you charge chariots into a zmbie unit it would be a EXTREMELY costly to kill a 120pt unit and then repositon and set up in turn 5 or 6.

Your going to easily dispel B.Arkhan ... awesome what about the other 14 P.Dice that can stagenate or redirect or cause panic through your armylist. I hope you have enough dispel dice to deal with the flaming rod and the staff of damnation. The enemy actually has to get danse?????? 4 Necro's 10 spells + spell familar. Even if he doesn't Have you seen the undead spell list? It's one of the best in the game.

When you write that you get 4 charges against a single unit, small raised troops are free movement, fleeing ghouls are charge bait ... then I do think that your most likely not playing against the most strongest players the undead have every dregged up. But how do I know? How can I debate a fact that I clearly have no idea about?

Redirection should only give the opponant over-run into a positon you want him to go. He(you) have no choice but either over and then reposition, taking a turn or hold(low L.d. test)and not get a charge off the next(stagnate), it has every little to do with what the opponant(you) want to do. If your playing against good undead opponants they'd be pulling this off with no defense from your dispel pool, you wouldn't have to much of a choice of where your charging or where your over running.

If you fail charge(ghouls flee) and sit there and the other chariots are waiting around or fleeing .... then the ghouls have done their job. B.knights, Bats etc, etc, don't HAVE to charge, they're SUPPORTING a magic phase and that magic phase has another turn to slam your army.

Listen, poor leadership fear causing enemy and then fleeing isn't good, no anti-magic against 14 P.Dice isn't good. You're going to have to sit there and take it throughout his magic phases and the odds are stacks against you.

My Exp. comes from playing alot of V.C. and alittle BoC(an army which I love, but to many people play them at my club and even in my gaming group), magic heavy V.C. lists are pretty common in tournaments and thats where most of my train of thought is coming from. I could show you my (cheezy)tournament list and you can pick it to bits if you want.

Elanthanis
11-10-2006, 13:47
Keep in mind that you potentially will be as slow as a beastherd army right up until the charge, as Chariots cannot march, but can charge as normal.

Pravus
11-10-2006, 14:17
Chariots are slower than beastherds and unless an opponent moves toward you, you shouldn't be able to charge until turn three.

Atrahasis
11-10-2006, 14:44
Yeah, we all speak from experience, you speak from playing against 3 V.C. armylists ... how can my 18 years of wargaming compare to that.I too have been playing wargames for almost as long, but that has nothing to do with the matter at hand. We each have been playing 7th edition for just as long as each other, and you it seems have never faced a chariot army in 7th.


Honestly, I think your replies look like tactic's you actually don't want to do with an agressive armylist with 12 low L.d. Chariots .... panic checks and a fear causing enemy. 16 chariots.

No panic. The only units in my army which can cause panic in other units are Furies and the beastlord, and then only if they are broken in combat (can't happen with furies) or wiped out in a single phase (very rare).

Even then, rerolls on Ld7 or 8 mean that failure is exeedingly rare.


Your going to flee with chariots, pin everything with your spawns and hope his fast characters are in a bad position to charge, excellent tactics. How many times have you seen spawns tarpit B.Knights? Once each against two opponents and twice against the third. They have not failed yet to do it.


Does it happen every game?

In every game so far.


If they did I'd start playing an army full of spawns.

I have as many as I am allowed, for teh very good reason that they are very difficult to kill in one round of combat (high toughness, 3 wounds) and can be placed to force the overrun in whichever direction I choose.


Did they also tarpit the dire wolves as well in the same round? Awesome. No, but they did tarpit the fell bats.


Chariots fleeing? fanastic! How are you going to get 4 chariots smashing into the front of a zombie unit with chariots fleeing and panic checks, plus fear tests, plus taking charges.

Again, there is no panic for fleeing chariots.
As I have said, in all my games I have failed a fear test once thanks to average or better (ld7 or 8 is not poor by any measure) leadership backed by rerolls.
What charges? The odd charge that I do take is only where it is better to take the charge and later countercharge. I do not have to fight anything at all that I do not want to.


Plus the fact that if you charge chariots into a zmbie unit it would be a EXTREMELY costly to kill a 120pt unit and then repositon and set up in turn 5 or 6. Very true, and I would commit 4 chariots to that unit if and only if it contained a character I wanted to rid myself of or if it became a threat I could not avoid.


Your going to easily dispel B.Arkhan ... awesome what about the other 14 P.Dice that can stagenate or redirect or cause panic through your armylist. I hope you have enough dispel dice to deal with the flaming rod and the staff of damnation.No I don't. But magic can do only so much. Granted, necromantic magic can be a huge thorn in my side and I am yet to face an army with as many power dice as you describe. I would of course have to see what such a game would bring.


The enemy actually has to get danse?????? 4 Necro's 10 spells + spell familar. Even if he doesn't Have you seen the undead spell list? It's one of the best in the game. But wait - you have fast characters. Which of them is the fast character if you have a level 4 and 3 level 2s?


When you write that you get 4 charges against a single unitIt is very difficult to prevent. A 5-wide 20mm unit allows 4 chariots base contact, and it is very easy to get 4 chariots within 14" of the front of a unit which moves only 8" a turn and cannot flee.


small raised troops are free movement,And they are. A raising army of 10 power levels as you describe could certainly raise a larger unit, but unless you also successfully cast vanhels in the same magic phase I will simply move around the unit and ignore it. If you charge, I will flee or hold and and move the other chariots out of the way of pursuit/overrun.

Not flawless, but I can limit the damage even so much magic can reek.


fleeing ghouls are charge baitI never said that. I said that the one chariot left stranded by the fleeing ghouls becomes bait for a charge.


then I do think that your most likely not playing against the most strongest players the undead have every dregged up. But how do I know? How can I debate a fact that I clearly have no idea about?You feel perfectly secure arguing about panic in an army that does not suffer it.


Redirection should only give the opponant over-run into a positon you want him to go.Very true, and a tactic I make great use of with this army. If charging a unit means I will end up somewhere dangerous for little gain, I simply don't charge. Chariots can pivot freely, so getting safe froma unit with 8" movement (if the general is nearby) is not difficult.


He(you) have no choice but either over and then reposition, taking a turn or hold(low L.d. test)and not get a charge off the next(stagnate), it has every little to do with what the opponant(you) want to do.

I can charge round units as well. Chariots can change direction freely once in their charge, and it will be difficult for you to prevent more than one or two chariots from having LOS to a more choice target. I am in no way saying that I would beat such a magic-heavy army, but I think you overestimate the effect of fear on an entire army that is either ItP or has a reroll against any failed psychology.


If your playing against good undead opponants they'd be pulling this off with no defense from your dispel pool, you wouldn't have to much of a choice of where your charging or where your over running. I always have a choice about whetehr or not to charge, and if charging will not pay off more than it will lose, then I simply will not do it. A chariot army can play defensively too, you know. If I have to play for a draw I will.


If you fail charge(ghouls flee) and sit there and the other chariots are waiting around or fleeingThey have, yes. They've succeeded in denying one chariot out of sixteen its charge. That's ignoring the possibility that I have dealt with the ghouls with furies or spawn by now. This endless papers-scissor-stone is pointless. I would be happy to face your army, and if I lost, I would be happy to admit that the army is weak against strong magic (which I have already done several times in this thread).


then the ghouls have done their job. B.knights, Bats etc, etc, don't HAVE to charge, they're SUPPORTING a magic phase and that magic phase has another turn to slam your army. Again, I know I am weak against magic, but once combat is joined I will rack up the VPs.


Listen, poor leadership fear causing enemy and then fleeing isn't good, no anti-magic against 14 P.Dice isn't good. You're going to have to sit there and take it throughout his magic phases and the odds are stacks against you. I know I am weak against magic. I have said so repeatedly. However, you fail to grasp the fact that FEAR IS NO GREAT PROBLEM. Ld7(8) with a reroll passes 8/10 (9/10) Ld tests. Yes, I will suffer to magic, and yes, a magic heavy VC army will cuse me more problems than a magic-light VC list. However, I do not think it will be as easy and straightforward as you claim.


My Exp. comes from playing alot of V.C. and alittle BoC(an army which I love, but to many people play them at my club and even in my gaming group), magic heavy V.C. lists are pretty common in tournaments and thats where most of my train of thought is coming from. I could show you my (cheezy)tournament list and you can pick it to bits if you want.Feel free. All 3 VC lists I played were tournament lists (one finishing in the top 20 at the recent GT).

haberova
11-10-2006, 23:25
Keep in mind that you potentially will be as slow as a beastherd army right up until the charge, as Chariots cannot march, but can charge as normal.

I wouldn't consider a army with 5 inch (10 for charging/marching) movement "slow" at all

haberova
11-10-2006, 23:30
Such an army in a tornament would have a massacre waiting to happen in the form of a Wood Elf Army moving forests around.

doesn't it only move the forest 3 inches? ........it doesn't matter anyways an army of all chariots would get smoked by anyone with a halfway decent army, or just anyone with a brain. It would be ridiculously easy to beat.

Frankly
12-10-2006, 06:52
LoL!

I just read your post Atra. Wow! Your army seems to defy logic, spawns that can't be beaten up by B.Knights, being able to limit heavy magic phases, being able for pass most everyone of your L.d. tests. And you have a chariot army that can play defensively against magic heavy armylists, you seem to have all the answers ...

... and how well did you do in the tournament? ....

...this is turning into abit of a joke now.

More later, I'm off to rugby.

Atrahasis
12-10-2006, 11:05
Your army seems to defy logic, spawns that can't be beaten up by B.Knights

3 Black Knights (I'll even give you the champion) have 4 attacks, hitting on 4's and wounding on 3's. I even gave you the charge. That's 1 wound. 3 horses give 3 attacks, hitting on 4s and wounding on 6s. That's half a wound. Spawn have 3 wounds. The chances of black knights killing a spawn in a single round are slim.


being able to limit heavy magic phasesDid you miss the 4 or 5 times I said in my post that heavy magic would be a problem for me? I said I could limit its effectiveness, which is what any general tries to do.


being able for pass most everyone of your L.d. tests.

Every single unit in the army is either Immune To Psychology or gets the Mark of Undivided. Rerolling Fear tests means that they pass Ld tests 80% of the time. FACT. If you don't believe me, I'm happy to give you a short course in statistics.


And you have a chariot army that can play defensively against magic heavy armylists, you seem to have all the answers

I play whichever way gives me the best performance out of the list against my current opponent. Playing defensively and forcing the enemy to come to me works well against armies with high magic with few damage-dealing spells.

I didn't say I have all the answers, I specifically said that I don't. Why do you insist on reading only the parts of the post that you want to?


... and how well did you do in the tournament? ....Ellipsisellipsisellipsis. Not great, but above average.


...this is turning into abit of a joke now. The only joke is your inability to read.

Yaffar
12-10-2006, 14:07
Popcorn...?

Popcorn.... anyone wants Popcorn... ?

http://www.improvresourcecenter.com/mb/images/smilies/popcorn.gif

sephiroth87
12-10-2006, 17:26
3 Black Knights (I'll even give you the champion) have 4 attacks, hitting on 4's and wounding on 3's. I even gave you the charge. That's 1 wound. 3 horses give 3 attacks, hitting on 4s and wounding on 6s. That's half a wound. Spawn have 3 wounds. The chances of black knights killing a spawn in a single round are slim.

As a general rule, most people stick a character in the Black Knights at 1500 and 2000 points, along with the banner of the barrows. Factor in 3 strength 7 lance attacks from the character, hitting on 3's from a thrall and 2 more knights hitting on 3's at a strength of 6. Then do the horses. Hell, you can put in a wight lord at strength 6 instead of the thrall, but they're both a staple of Undead armies.

The numbers say your spawn will likely get eaten in a single round, regardless of what straw-man numbers you're putting up.

I'm sure your spawn are tougher than normal spawn and nothing will happen to them, but I'm just saying what I've noticed in my experience.

Again, I don't think the chariot army is a completely bad one, rather than the opposite. But there's no point in getting arrogant. Your army will lose against good opponents and will have a tougher time against certain lists. People are noting this and they're correct about it.

haberova
12-10-2006, 18:47
The numbers say your spawn will likely get eaten in a single round, regardless of what straw-man numbers you're putting up.

I've sort of found a solution to a spawn getting overrun. Against hard armies with hard cavalry. I run 2 spawns up to the unit and have my other units follow behind them. When the spawn gets into combat and dies the opponent overruns into a fresh spawn. Then on my turn i charge and usually get the flank on the hard cav. units. If they don't bother to charge or overrun it'll still be to my favor. I'm not sure how the new rules will affect this tactic with the multiple charge rule....i haven't played with the new rules yet.

sephiroth87
12-10-2006, 18:53
That is a very good idea!

I don't think multiple charge rules come into effect unless the back spawn was already in combat that round. So I think it could work.

Atrahasis
12-10-2006, 20:18
As a general rule, most people stick a character in the Black Knights at 1500 and 2000 points, along with the banner of the barrows. Factor in 3 strength 7 lance attacks from the character, hitting on 3's from a thrall and 2 more knights hitting on 3's at a strength of 6. Then do the horses. Hell, you can put in a wight lord at strength 6 instead of the thrall, but they're both a staple of Undead armies.

Even given a Thrall, a champion, the banner of the barrows AND the charge, the unit will on average cause 2 11/12 wounds. In other words, more than half the time the spawn will survive.

Add in the tactic haberova so cleverly points out (and one that I do use alongside the angling of the spawn to cause the cavlary unit to turn almost 90 degrees in front of my chariots should they charge) and the black knights are very successfully tarpitted.

I'm not being arrogant. I have, in many posts in this thread, said that the list is beatable. However, if someone tries to tell me that spawn will die against a black knight charge, or fear will cause me great problems, both of which I know to be untrue from my understanding of statistics and my experience using the list, I will correct them.

sephiroth87
12-10-2006, 21:59
I'm not being arrogant. I have, in many posts in this thread, said that the list is beatable. However, if someone tries to tell me that spawn will die against a black knight charge, or fear will cause me great problems, both of which I know to be untrue from my understanding of statistics and my experience using the list, I will correct them.

If I know going in that I'm averaging 2 and 11/12 wounds on a 3 wound model, I'm charging on through and either going for multiple charges or hoping for luck. I think that the odds aren't completely solid, but it's close enough to give it a shot.

I've played enough chaos players to respect how long Chaos Spawn can last, but I know how quickly they can die, too. I've been tarpitted by all sorts of things, including chaos spawn, and I deal with them in the same way that other people deal with my zombies. I just set up my own flank charges. Whoever has the most devastating flank charge wins. And with Chariots, it can be very, very devastating.

The arrogant comment came from your several posts that went along the lines of "Tell that to the (blank) player I annihilated." On an internet message board, it's a lot like posting your win/loss record- useless. Just as a general statement, it does nothing to further an argument and usually ends up in a You Did/Did Not fight. I like the tactics that you're talking about and the list idea, so don't take this as me going after your knowledge of your own army; it's just a friendly criticism of what your tone looked like(which again, is hard to read on the internet).

On a less pedantic note :p , has anyone noticed the changes to chariots in 7th edition? From what it looks like to me, a whole host of tactics have been opened up to Chariots, due to being able to be partially concealed behind units and still charge.

Lyquis
12-10-2006, 22:05
On a less pedantic note :p , has anyone noticed the changes to chariots in 7th edition? From what it looks like to me, a whole host of tactics have been opened up to Chariots, due to being able to be partially concealed behind units and still charge.

How has it changed?

Atrahasis
12-10-2006, 22:25
Chariots can change direction once during the charge, which they could not do previously.

The change from redirection to "Enemy in the Way" makes it slightly harder to bait charges with them though.

Morgrin
12-10-2006, 23:09
doesn't it only move the forest 3 inches? ........it doesn't matter anyways an army of all chariots would get smoked by anyone with a halfway decent army, or just anyone with a brain. It would be ridiculously easy to beat.

Each Tree Singing moves a forest 2-4", 3-5" with a certain 25pt staff. It can be cast more than once, meaning that a single forest can easily move 10" or more in a single turn.

Frankly
13-10-2006, 08:38
The only joke is your inability to read.

LoL!

Come on mate, don't get angry...

... I just don't beleive what your posting.

Freak Ona Leash
13-10-2006, 10:34
Ellipsisellipsisellipsis. Not great, but above average.

.
Didnt you win a single game, and only because the player was so disgusted by your army he left in the middle of it and forfeited? Oh and your mathhammer is impressive. But, Freak is sorry to say, the real world could care less about what your number-crunching says. Your spawn is NOT going to kill a unit of Black Knights with a character and banner by itself. Your "understanding of statistics" does not mean your Spawn will do what your statistics say it will do. This game, at least the one Freak plays, is Warhammer and it is a game of dice. Perhaps you play the almighty Mathhammer, a game where one only needs some numbers and a calculator and you can invariably figure out if you will win or not. For some odd reason, all Mathhammer players end up saying "I will annihilate you." in some way or another. Gets kind of pointless to even listen to them after a while, they all spout the same garbage.

Atrahasis
13-10-2006, 11:35
Didnt you win a single game

No, I massacred a Thorek army as well.


and only because the player was so disgusted by your army he left in the middle of it and forfeited?That might be what he would like you to believe, but no. He lost because he charged with 2 units of black knights and his fellbats into 3 separate spawn, failed to kill them (as is expected given the stats of the models) and then was wiped out in the ensuing countercharge. His general and more than half of his army was wiped out by the beginning of his 3rd turn. That's why he conceded, not because of any disgust.


Oh and your mathhammer is impressive. But, Freak is sorry to say, the real world could care less about what your number-crunching says. Your spawn is NOT going to kill a unit of Black Knights with a character and banner by itself. Your "understanding of statistics" does not mean your Spawn will do what your statistics say it will do. This game, at least the one Freak plays, is Warhammer and it is a game of dice. Perhaps you play the almighty Mathhammer, a game where one only needs some numbers and a calculator and you can invariably figure out if you will win or not. For some odd reason, all Mathhammer players end up saying "I will annihilate you." in some way or another. Gets kind of pointless to even listen to them after a while, they all spout the same garbage.

I use the statistics along with anecdotal evidence to give me an idea of how a situation will play out. I'm not about to trust entirely to statistics though, and I don't think I've ever said that I do.

I have, however, pointed out the flaws in other people's arguments using statistics. I've never said the army was unbeatable, in fact I have frequently admitted that it is weak in several areas. That doesn't mean that when someone makes a false assertion that I will leave it unchallenged.