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View Full Version : Gromril, rune of stone and HW+S



Stouty
15-09-2006, 19:58
Could I take gromril armour with a rune of stone and a shield for a cheap 2+ save in combat on my runesmith?

Or in other words, does taking magic armour prevent me from getting the HW+S bonus?

Death Whisper
15-09-2006, 20:04
I don't think so. I believe it's only magic weapons that prevent you from doing that.

gukal
15-09-2006, 20:17
Magic armor does not affect the HW/S "parry" bonus.

But I think you need to recalculate the armor save.

4+ (Gromril Armor)
3+ (Gromril Armor; Rune of Stone)
2+ (Gromril Armor; Rune of Stone; Shield)
1+ (Gromril Armor; Rune of Stone; Shield; Handweapon)

That is good times :D The stunties know their armor.

- Gukal

Gekiganger
15-09-2006, 20:17
Indeed, from what I've heard it's only magic weapons that stop the parry bonus, not armour.

GodHead
15-09-2006, 20:22
And even then, if the magic weapon had a rule along the lines of "counts as a hand weapon..." then you would get the bonus as well, as it is simply tied to using a hand weapon. The thing is few of them do at the moment...

Atrahasis
15-09-2006, 20:48
The Sword of the Quest does...

GodHead
15-09-2006, 20:58
That Empire one might too? Don't have my book handy. So there are a couple you could use like that then.

Stouty
15-09-2006, 21:51
Awesome, 1+ save in combat for peanuts.

Garazdraki
16-09-2006, 15:19
Magic armor does not affect the HW/S "parry" bonus.

But I think you need to recalculate the armor save.

4+ (Gromril Armor)
3+ (Gromril Armor; Rune of Stone)
2+ (Gromril Armor; Rune of Stone; Shield)
1+ (Gromril Armor; Rune of Stone; Shield; Handweapon)


is wrong :
1+ (Gromril Armor; Rune of Stone; Shield; Handweapon)

you mean :
1+ (Gromril Armor; Rune of Stone; Shield; Combat at the front but not enemies at the back or flank side of your unit)

First you need a shield.
When you want to fight back at a close combat and want the shield bonus then you need a handweapon (not a two handed weapon). But you allways have a normal handweapon or you take a magic one hand weapon.
And then you have to think (i.e. by dwarves) the sort of magic you are using. I mean a magic armour/weapon have their own rules. If you take a rune at a armour or weapon it loose there normal rules and maybe there armour save (i.e. a two handed axe will loose his strong bonus and fight last, and so on).

But you can say the stone rune is at his head armour. But you have to decide where the rune is graved in.

BloodiedSword
16-09-2006, 16:09
I thought there was a requirement for both the hand weapon and shield to be mundane? Or have they lifted that restriction?

Either way, the Dwarf Lord is OK to go - 2+ save which goes to a 1+ in combat to the front..

Avian
16-09-2006, 19:42
I thought there was a requirement for both the hand weapon and shield to be mundane? Or have they lifted that restriction?
There was an FAQ in 6th edition that you could not get the bonus with a magical shield. Since there is no mention of this in the new rulebook, you can do so at least until there is a new FAQ.

It is quite clear that you cannot get the bonus save with a magical weapon in 7th edition, unless it says "counts as a hand weapon" in its description.

Garazdraki
17-09-2006, 10:33
It is quite clear that you cannot get the bonus save with a magical weapon in 7th edition, unless it says "counts as a hand weapon" in its description.

Where did you get this ? I can nowhere find this written.
Hand weapon is handweapon and it do not matter if it is magical or not.

Griefbringer
17-09-2006, 10:41
Where did you get this ? I can nowhere find this written.
Hand weapon is handweapon and it do not matter if it is magical or not.

Small Red Book, page 121, section entitled Magic Weapons, second paragraph, last sentence:

"Magic weapons always ignore any special rules that apply to an ordinary weapon of the same type unless otherwise specified in the description of the weapon."

Edited, original quote had an extra word slipped in accidentally by me (""Magic weapons always ignore any special rules that apply to an ordinary weapon of the same type unless otherwise specified in the description of the hand weapon.")

eldrak
17-09-2006, 11:36
"Magic weapons always ignore any special rules that apply to an ordinary weapon of the same type unless otherwise specified in the description of the weapon."

Removed "hand" from the rules quote, Griefbringer made a freudian slip there.

Griefbringer
17-09-2006, 12:12
Oops, silly me! I shall commit an act of self-editing on my previous post.

Festus
17-09-2006, 14:16
Hi

1+ (Gromril Armor; Rune of Stone; Shield; Combat at the front but not enemies at the back or flank side of your unit)
Untrue: It is the model that gets the bonus and it is not dependant on other models in the unit. The front rank of a unit will get the HW/S save bonus to all attacks made from the front.

This may indeed mean that a model has two different saves in the same combat, if on the corner of a unit and simultaneously attacked from the front and flank.

Festus

shartmatau
17-09-2006, 15:55
Small Red Book, page 121, section entitled Magic Weapons, second paragraph, last sentence:

"Magic weapons always ignore any special rules that apply to an ordinary weapon of the same type unless otherwise specified in the description of the weapon."

Edited, original quote had an extra word slipped in accidentally by me (""Magic weapons always ignore any special rules that apply to an ordinary weapon of the same type unless otherwise specified in the description of the hand weapon.")

This has no bearing on whether you get the parry with hand weapon and shield. If you look on page 54 in the LRB it has a list of all Special Weapon Rules. Parry is not a special rule and is allowed with magic weapons that are one handed.

Festus
17-09-2006, 16:42
Hi

Parry is not a special rule and is allowed with magic weapons that are one handed.
Utter Nonsense: Parry is a special rule of Handweapons and Handweapons only.
A Magical Weapon is not a Handweapon if it is not explicitly stated, as Griefbringer rightly pointed out.

It has nothing to do with the weapon being used with one hand, but with the weapon belonging into the (rules-)category of Handweapon.

cf. BRB, p.56

Festus

shartmatau
17-09-2006, 17:18
Hi

Utter Nonsense: Parry is a special rule of Handweapons and Handweapons only.
A Magical Weapon is not a Handweapon if it is not explicitly stated, as Griefbringer rightly pointed out.

It has nothing to do with the weapon being used with one hand, but with the weapon belonging into the (rules-)category of Handweapon.

cf. BRB, p.56

Festus

That is wrong. From page 56. The table that lists Close Combat Weapons. In the first paragraph under Hand Weapons, "The term 'hand weapon' is used to describe any weapon held in one hand and not otherwise covered by the rules. As such it includes swords, axes, clubs, maces. etc." (emphasis is mine)

From page 121, under Magic Weapons. "By which we mean most commonly swords, but also: axes, maces, spears, bows, crossbows, etc."
In the second paragraph, "Magic Weapons ignore any special rules that apply to an ordinary weapon of the same type unless noted."

The Special Rules for Ordinary weapons are clearly listed under a section title Special Weapon Rules.

If a magic weapon is two handed, a halberd, a spear etc. then that is stated in the weapon description along with whatever magic properties it has, if the magic weapon does not fall into these other categories then the default is a one handed weapon. There is nothing that states my Sword of Striking is two handed. Why would I lose my armor bonus from having it and a shield?

Again, 'Fighting with a Hand Weapon and Sheild' under the Close Combat Weapons section on page 56. Does not state any special rules. Even the other entries, such as Great Weapons, Flails, Spears, etc specifically say under each subtitle in bold "Rules: xxxx"

The simpliest explanation is : If you have any One handed weapon and a shield, unless specially noted otherwise, you can fight with both because that is not a Special Rule.

Festus
17-09-2006, 17:43
Hi

Read again:
"The term 'hand weapon' is used to describe any weapon held in one hand and not otherwise covered by the rules. As such it includes swords, axes, clubs, maces. etc."
This is a rules definition of the weapon type Handweapon.
As others are defined on the same page, like Great Weapons, Halberds, etc.

This weapon classed as Handweapon has certain special rules pertaining to it - which conveniently are listed right under its paragraph....

1st: Fighting with two weapons (infantry)
2nd: HW/Shield (infantry).

"Magic Weapons ignore any special rules that apply to an ordinary weapon of the same type unless noted."
So Magic Weapon do neither allow you to fight with two weapons, nor to gain the HW/shield bonus.

The other Special Rules on p. 54f. are organised so that they don't have to be repeated over and over again, instead the Designers gave us a glossary (Yes, that is the term you were looking for, isn't it?) and can give the abbreviated rules as a heading in the weapon's description.

As there is no repetition of the HW Special Rules, there is no need for a glossary entry.

If you want to insist on your reading of the rules, go ahead, but don't expect a large following in your erroneous ways... :rolleyes:

I am now leaving this discussion.

Festus

GodHead
17-09-2006, 18:08
shartmatau is wrong. Everone else in the thread is right.

shartmatau
17-09-2006, 18:35
The fact remains that Fighting with 2 hand weapons and fighting with a shield are not listed under Weapon Special Rules. Every other ordinary weapon type has the Rules listed beneath it and every single one of them refers back to the Weapon Special Rules listed on the previous page.

You are correct in that they made this glossary so as not to have to repeat themselves several times over. You are incorrect in assuming that Fighting with a shield is a special rule. If it was they would have treated it exactly like Spears, where the rule is listed in the Weapon Special Rules and the reference is made in the Close Combat Weapon list (I use spears because it is the only weapon which allows fighting in two ranks, similar to Handweapons being the only weapon to allow fighting with a shield.)

GodHead
17-09-2006, 18:45
It is just as much of a special rule as any of the other rules on the page, it is only used for one type of weapon, so they did not bother to put it in the glossary page, just like Pistols (Shooting) have "always stand and shoot" as a special rule that is only described under their heading.

"The term 'hand weapon' is used to describe any weapon held in one hand and not otherwise covered by the main rules."

Magic weapons are "otherwise covered by the main rules", and a magic weapon does not therefore count as a "hand weapon" unless it explicitly defines itself as such, exactly the same as a magic weapon does not count as a great weapon unless it explicitly defines itself as such.

Gekiganger
17-09-2006, 18:46
shartmatau is wrong. Everone else in the thread is right.

Indeed, Who goes up against Festus anyway :p

Gekiga Out!

Griefbringer
18-09-2006, 07:59
If it was they would have treated it exactly like Spears, where the rule is listed in the Weapon Special Rules and the reference is made in the Close Combat Weapon list (I use spears because it is the only weapon which allows fighting in two ranks, similar to Handweapons being the only weapon to allow fighting with a shield.)

Spear might be the only weapon with fighting in two ranks, but it is not the only weapon utilising the fighting in ranks rule; high elf spearmen have fighting in three ranks special rule, while DoW pikemen have fighting in four ranks special rule.

Oh, and we already had Easter this year. :rolleyes: