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MarcoPollo
16-09-2006, 02:21
Hi folks, I am starting to use the ambush skill that comes with a 2K beastlord. I am now used to ld 8 as a mainstay of an army and am good with most chaos tactics.

What I want is to get opinions and advice on how to set up some solid ambushes as well the propper unit size for ambushes.

Here's what I have learned already.

1) The horn of the hunt is not always worth its points. You need to pass a ld test to ambush where you want them to go. But, if you fail, you have a 1/4 chance of getting the right table quarter (opponents end) and a further 2/4 chance of getting a reasonably effective table quarter (opponents sides). This effectively makes your statistic of getting a reasonable effect out the ambush as follows. (I teach math--so I hope that the math is good).

a) ld 7 = 1-(16/36)(1/4) = 1-0.11111 = 0.888888 or 88%
b) ld 8 = 1-(10/36)(1/4) = 1-0.69444 = 0.930555 or 93%

2) Also, characters count towards the total that can ambush so you must figure them into your totals if you wish to ambush.

3) You will not be able to charge on the turn you come out unless you are lucky enough to use the staff of darkoth. I am not sure about how the unruly rule works in this regard. If there is anyone who can clarify, that would help.

4) You can stick a character with a unit chaos dogs to help their ld.

What I am a little unsure of is; what is a quality size force to ambush with? How do you place your characters when you ambush? What type of command do you use.

I am choosing to use a beast of Khorne army (most units are painted that way). But I am easily adaptable to tzeetch, nurgle, and slaanesh too. I have several units that use the marks of the other gods too.

I have been ambushing with 8 gors and 14 ungors with a character or two. I have a feeling that this is too big for normal ambushing.

Lyquis
16-09-2006, 05:25
Ambush really depends on what you want the units to do. If you are intending to kill warmachines then small herds of 5/5 will more often than not to be enough. Hounds are great for removing ranks and providing flank or rear CR bonus, although I would just add more units rather then putting a wargor with them. I would not recomend ambushing with your shamans, you really want them on the table at the start of the game. The loss of your magic on the first turn could be a big loss. As for your question on unruly you would test for it in the compulsory move phase, which is before your ambushers enter the table.

MarcoPollo
16-09-2006, 06:17
I agree with having the shamans out on the table to start. I am not a fan of trying to get the staff of Darkoth spell off. An opponent can anticipate and neutralize that threat pretty easily.

Perhaps, I should have asked how you would organize the beastherds and warhounds in a 2K list to get the most efficient use of the ambush rules.

I have found that an 8/14 superherd is a little overkill for an ambush. Perhaps a small 5/5 herd or a medium herd of say 6/10 should be included in a list in order to have a variety of ambushing strategies.

What about command? Full for large units for sure, but what about medium/small ambushing forces?

Spaco
16-09-2006, 15:15
I'm new to ambush, but not to beasts- as I've always played with a Shaggoth Champ as my general in the past. With the changes to the Raiders rule and the increased tactical advantage of ambush, I just can't justify not taking ambushers anymore. I'm experimenting today with ambushing two units of five chaos hounds and one unit of 5/5 herd (HW/S) with foe-render for LD and musician for if things go wrong. Depending on what army I'm facing and how they deploy will determine my ambushers goals, but overall their intended use is to catch fleeing units.

I've always taken 2xHW for my herds in the past, but for this ambushing herd I'll try HW/S to give them more security and protection from fire. I'll let you know how it goes. :cool:

DirtJumper
16-09-2006, 16:08
I don't give anything in my Herds Sheilds. It isen't even worth it on Ungors, and it is most certainly not better than 2 HW on a Gor. The 6+ save really doen't do anything to justify the points or the loss of 2 HW, and it's too eaily nullified.

Spaco
16-09-2006, 16:45
I totally agree; the only reason I'm taking shields is to keep the small ambushing herd alive long enough and with enough models to perform it's role as a fleeing unit destroyer.

Wolfgang
16-09-2006, 23:50
In addition to the already mentioned tactics, I'd like to add that the ambushers are basically another distraction, helping your Hammer (Bestigor) and Anvil (Trolls) to get where they need to go......

Lyquis
17-09-2006, 11:34
I totally agree; the only reason I'm taking shields is to keep the small ambushing herd alive long enough and with enough models to perform it's role as a fleeing unit destroyer.
You are better off just taking more ungors than giving them shields. Ungors are only 4 points, adding a shield increases their cost by 25%. So for every 4 ungors with shields you have, you could have 5 without. There is no reason to ever take shields on ungors.:)

zak
17-09-2006, 21:39
I find that the best size for an ambushing unit is 21. I know that it's large but any less and a round of shooting will send them packing. Leadership 6/7 = liable to run!
The enemy needs to kill 6 ungors through shooting to make them panic, which is asking a lot for any missile armed unit. The main problem comes with not being able to charge on your first turn. Your unit appears is shot up and runs away before you get anywhere near your target. You therefore need large herds and a couple of distraction units such as hounds. They either shoot up the big unit or the hounds, but usually can't do both. I always ensure they are apart as the last thing you need is both units running due to panic. This usually ensures that atleast one if not two units can make a potential rear charge in the turn after they appear, kill the warmachine or just be around for the autokill/flee rule.
If your worried about points then take a unit of 5 Gors and 16 Ungors. No shields as a total point sink.

MarcoPollo
18-09-2006, 00:58
I to am in full agreement about the shields. The fact they skirmish is enough to protect them from shooting well enough to survive panic. You want them to be able to get stuck in and dish the pain and given the 360 charge LOS they should have no problem in that area.

I suppose that it is important to have a variety of tactics available. So when picking the list, it might be wise to include a small (13 unit-5/8 = 92 ch/mus), a medium(17 unit 6/10 = 117 full comnd), and a large (21 unit 8/13 = 143 full cmnd). This way, if the army is fast with small shooting, you can put the two smaller units in ambush to take out artillery, while the large unit stays with the front. But if the players is slow with shooting or even standing, then the two larger ones might be better used in ambush and the small one used to screen other troops on the front.

These numbers are divisible by 4 with 1 remainder to give help to those panic tests that can cause your units to run off the pitch. Also, 21 is a nice number for a big herd as it allows you to hit a 5 man wide unit with 7 gors and still get 2 more full ranks.

I suppose you could save 27 points (20 for the champion and 7 for a gor) when you want to include a character in ther herd. Thus a 60 pt wargor is now effectively worth 33 pts if you have him in an ambushing role.

I think that the small herd should not have a standard (champion and musician only) as it will more than likely be giving up more VP than what the standard may be worth in combat. While the medium and large units will definetly benefit from the extra CR and be able to protect the standard in threatened situations.

*** How do people find the different magical banners in an ambush situation? Perhaps a BSB character may be more important in ambush now that the rules have changed.