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Chris_Tzeentch
17-09-2006, 15:58
With the 7th edition ruling that frenzy now affects mounts as well as the rider, are you all planning nasty armies full of frenzied cavalry?

I am using a Khorne army in our local campaign, and I was shocked by how lethal normal Khorne Chaos Knights have become. Khorne Chosen Knights are just plain wrong!

IkuTurso
17-09-2006, 19:19
i will be fielding 2 units of 5 other one chosen. I would go 3 units but im not eager to pay another 50 euros for it.

Latro
17-09-2006, 19:23
With the 7th edition ruling that frenzy now affects mounts as well as the rider, are you all planning nasty armies full of frenzied cavalry?

I am using a Khorne army in our local campaign, and I was shocked by how lethal normal Khorne Chaos Knights have become. Khorne Chosen Knights are just plain wrong!

I've played Khorne Cavalry in the 6th edition and I'll sure be using them in the 7th as well ... the blood must flow.

BloodiedSword
17-09-2006, 20:18
Why stop there? Why not field tons and tons of psychotic frenzied Chariots of Khorne? Now that's going to hurt, especially as Core..

Lordsaradain
17-09-2006, 20:23
I converted my regiment of boar boyz into savage orc boar bozy by adding furs and stuff last weekend, after reading the 7th Ed rulebook... :D

metro_gnome
17-09-2006, 21:01
yeah chariots are where the money is...

im looking at a savage warboss...
with porko's pig stikka (+1 attack for each rank on charge), and iron gnashas (killing blow)...
in a chariot with an extra crew man...
delivers 16 attacks on the charge vs a fully ranked unit...
8 @ WS3 S4... 8 @ WS6 S6, killing blows!... and the d6+1 impact hits of course...
not bad for a 280 point model...
i think i'll splurge and get the enchanted shield on him aswell...

vinush
17-09-2006, 22:49
yeah chariots are where the money is...

im looking at a savage warboss...
with porko's pig stikka (+1 attack for each rank on charge), and iron gnashas (killing blow)...
in a chariot with an extra crew man...
delivers 16 attacks on the charge vs a fully ranked unit...
8 @ WS3 S4... 8 @ WS6 S6, killing blows!... and the d6+1 impact hits of course...
not bad for a 280 point model...
i think i'll splurge and get the enchanted shield on him aswell...

:eek: You sick, sick... :eek:

Why not take a unit of Savage orc boar boys, and give them the banner of butchery to boot. With the new rules, make them big 'uns. Add in the Warboss, and what you've got is one hideous unit that will kill absolutely any unit you put them against.

Vince.

samw
17-09-2006, 23:42
All of which will be chasing fairies/doggies/peasantry through the woods alot. :D

metro_gnome
18-09-2006, 04:06
well the draw backs of frenzy are a given...
its not like it keeps khorne armies off the scene...

boar boyz iz way to expensive...
but the army with the general above includes 25 savage boyz with additional Choppa...
it delivers almost (thats right i said almost) as many attacks as the lord himself...
at 15 S4 attacks... in the first round....

Neknoh
18-09-2006, 09:30
hrmm....

4 Chosen Knights of Khorne (unit prize arround 230 pts)
12 strength 5 attacks WS5
8 strength 4 WS 4 attacks


Exalted Champion of Khorne, Juggernaut of Khorne, Berserker Sword that is 10 strength 5 attacks when fighting R&F troops, 12 strength 5 attacks when fighting Knights or Ogre sized creatures.
And then we add another Exalted of Khorne on a Jugger with the Axe of Khorne, that's another 8 attacks at strength 5, 5 of which are Killingblows.

Surething, the unit costs arround 500 points, but I do commend the opponent who doesn't crap his pants when he realises the unit dishes out 20 strength 5 attacks, when fighting Knights or Ogres.

Atrahasis
18-09-2006, 09:34
Characters cannot form units with each other in 7th.

Neknoh
18-09-2006, 09:42
Ah still, they could both charge the enemy unit... or be charged, I don't care, as long as we're not talking Strength 5 troops, I wouldn't be worried.

Frankly
18-09-2006, 10:14
hrmm....

4 Chosen Knights of Khorne (unit prize arround 230 pts)
12 strength 5 attacks WS5
8 strength 4 WS 4 attacks




Thats actually really good points cost for that basic units for what is does.

Put in a hero level character o a basic steed and a GW and you have a unit breaking core choice that is +2 dice to anti-magic and at a reasonable price.

Neknoh
18-09-2006, 10:42
NO Greatweapons!!!!

What IS this obsession with greatweapons!!!

A hallberd! A Hallberd is SO MUCH BETTER than a Greatweapon!

Latro
18-09-2006, 10:45
On a side-note: I think using a halberd from horseback to good effect is just as silly as using a great weapon that way ... but rules-wise halberd are indeed more effective now.

Neknoh
18-09-2006, 10:54
what do you mean Latro?

A Hallberd does NOT have to be the typical design! In fact, the typical design would be very useful on horseback, you've got your Spear in it and you can hold higer up the shaft in order to properly use it as a cavalry axe.

People used Lochaber and axes with even longer shafts, you don't think wielding a hallberd would be all too different do you?


EDIT: Sorry for the "silly" comment, was meant more as a frienly nudge than an insult, but then I remembered, this is text and not spoken, so, I changed it to Latro.

Latro
18-09-2006, 11:30
Yes, you can use it as a spear on the charge ... but after that?

Anything with a long shaft and requiring two hands to use is going to be very hard to handle from horseback. And lets face it, a halberd-type weapon is not going to be very useful when use with just one hand.

Of course you can make rules for it that it will, but it still feels a bit odd to me. Can't remember having ever seen or read anything about halberd being used from horseback either ... it's an infantry weapon. (IMHO of course)


... don't worry about silly remarks calling me silly, you silly. I've been called much worse (one of the perks of working in special education ;) ).

Neknoh
18-09-2006, 11:38
you still can use a five foot cavalry axe can't you?
The reason Hallberds, naginata's and any weapon like that has to be held with two hands is that it's so bloody long, but, when on horseback, you can emediately let some of that length dissapear by lowering it perhaps four or so feet so that you hold it on the shaft rather than the handle, this would lead to you not having too much extra length waving arround up where you are and you would instead have the abillity to still use it as a spear, both stabbing and cutting.

http://images.google.se/images?q=Halberd+mounted&ndsp=18&svnum=10&hl=sv&lr=&start=0&sa=N&filter=0

Some of the models there show what I mean (do note, the Horse of the templar is far too small for him)

warlord hack'a
18-09-2006, 11:43
yeah chariots are where the money is...

im looking at a savage warboss...
with porko's pig stikka (+1 attack for each rank on charge), and iron gnashas (killing blow)...
in a chariot with an extra crew man...
delivers 16 attacks on the charge vs a fully ranked unit...
8 @ WS3 S4... 8 @ WS6 S6, killing blows!... and the d6+1 impact hits of course...
not bad for a 280 point model...
i think i'll splurge and get the enchanted shield on him aswell...

chariot with additional crew means you have 2 orcs and 2 boars, if they are all frenzied that gives you 4 Ws3 S4 attacks and 4 Ws 3 S5 attacks (boars have +2S on the charge..). And the calculations for your warlord are plain wrong: he gets 4+1 (frenzy) attacks basic, adds up to +3 from Porko's so that is 8 WS 6 S5 attacks and on top of that +1 attack (ws6 S5 or 6 I am not sure) from the gnasha's, they do not give all attacks killing blow by my knowledge..

warlord hack'a
18-09-2006, 11:51
to everybody now completely putting all their eggs in the frenzied cav/character basket, just think of what a small spiderrider unit would do to you.. If they can let you charge halfway into an 8 inch forest with your very expensive knights or juggernaughts (;-)) then it will take you another round to get out of there, so that is two rounds wasted and the spiderriders have 50% of rallying in their next turn to prepare for the next baiting round... Frenzied characters and troops are very good for their points value because they are baited very easily, but you know that already (and so do I, I play svg orcs).. Just stop and think how easy spiderriders make it now to do that baiting....

metro_gnome
18-09-2006, 12:08
or how easily spider riders and sqig hoppaz prevent baiting...
dont know hows khornes gonna handle it... but somehow they always make do...:rolleyes:
frenzy aint so bad...

prokos pig stikka counts as a spear in the new book... unless im mistaken...
so 8 WS6 S6 attacks... iron gnashas in the new book give all of his attacks killing blow...
my apologies on the boars tho... i had thought the tusk rule was +1... but i'll take +2...:cool:

warlord hack'a
18-09-2006, 13:49
IRON GNASHAS GIVE ALL ATTACKS KILLING BLOW!!!!!!!

sorry, I got a bit excited... GIMME GIMME GIMME! Oh I love that combo, but not enough to sacrifice a warboss for it (as he will not be in a big block of protective troops and a svg orc warboss is a sort of maniacal choice..

But I think I will give the gnashas to my orc or black orc warboss in the unit of savage orcs, that will hurt!!

Latro
18-09-2006, 14:47
you still can use a five foot cavalry axe can't you?
The reason Hallberds, naginata's and any weapon like that has to be held with two hands is that it's so bloody long, but, when on horseback, you can emediately let some of that length dissapear by lowering it perhaps four or so feet so that you hold it on the shaft rather than the handle, this would lead to you not having too much extra length waving arround up where you are and you would instead have the abillity to still use it as a spear, both stabbing and cutting.

http://images.google.se/images?q=Halberd+mounted&ndsp=18&svnum=10&hl=sv&lr=&start=0&sa=N&filter=0

Some of the models there show what I mean (do note, the Horse of the templar is far too small for him)

Sorry, if anything those pictures make me even more certain a halberd can't be used in an efective halberd-like fashion on horseback. Using it onehanded can make it into some sort of spear, but that wouldn't allow for any strength bonus in following rounds. Gripping it higher on the shaft makes it only more awkward to swing around in a slashing fashion with one hand ... holding it at the end makes it too long to be really functional. Using it with two hands (as intended) is an absolute nightmare on horseback, there will always be your own body/horse head/horse body in the way to wield it effectively.

... get a broom and seat yourself on something horselike, you'll know what I mean (and have some pictures taken while your at it ... should look great! :D )

I guess I would have to see it in action to actually believe it.

Crazy Harborc
19-09-2006, 00:50
With long, hard proper training in the correct methods of fighting from horseback with a halberd, IMHO, any of us would understand how it WAS done in the real world.;)

ROCKY
19-09-2006, 15:41
NO Greatweapons!!!!

What IS this obsession with greatweapons!!!

A hallberd! A Hallberd is SO MUCH BETTER than a Greatweapon!

I told u gws were better! lol:D

Chris_Tzeentch
19-09-2006, 16:51
Great weapons are sooo 6th Edition

ROCKY
19-09-2006, 18:57
Great weapons are sooo 6th Edition

Indeed....thats why chaos need lances;)

vinush
19-09-2006, 23:15
Indeed....thats why chaos need lances

Yeah, because Chaos needs an extra advantage over the other armies!:rolleyes:

The fact that they use great weapons for their Knights is the only thing that compensates for how sick the damn things actually are by making them strike last after the first round if they charged and you're still there.

I despise chaos armies, because they encourage bad generalship, bad selection, and beardy combinations.

Chaos has long been favoured by GW powers that be, hence the fact that chosen warrriors net out at about 12 points cheaper than they should be! :cheese:

Their marks can be taken in addition to Magical allowances, and can totally unbalance the game. The mark of Chaos undivided is free, and allows a reroll to failed psychology, which can be given to all units and characters! :cheese:

For an Empire army to have the equivalent ability, it takes a battle standard bearer with a 100 point banner! :wtf:

Now if that isn't favouritism, I don't know what is.

Right, that's my rant over, I'll get off my soap box.

Vince.

ROCKY
20-09-2006, 01:09
Yeah, because Chaos needs an extra advantage over the other armies!:rolleyes:

The fact that they use great weapons for their Knights is the only thing that compensates for how sick the damn things actually are by making them strike last after the first round if they charged and you're still there.

I despise chaos armies, because they encourage bad generalship, bad selection, and beardy combinations.

Chaos has long been favoured by GW powers that be, hence the fact that chosen warrriors net out at about 12 points cheaper than they should be! :cheese:

Their marks can be taken in addition to Magical allowances, and can totally unbalance the game. The mark of Chaos undivided is free, and allows a reroll to failed psychology, which can be given to all units and characters! :cheese:

For an Empire army to have the equivalent ability, it takes a battle standard bearer with a 100 point banner! :wtf:

Now if that isn't favouritism, I don't know what is.

Right, that's my rant over, I'll get off my soap box.

Vince.

true, but they did balance it out by adjusting the prices. I mean a chaos lord nude is 210pts, way too much for a lord and with a mark and items can reach 400pts! and the units are not cheap either, which means smaller units (unless you use marauders).

patataman
20-09-2006, 01:31
I play Skaven...and Dwarf...TE HELL WHIT FRENZIED CAVARLY T_T:cries: :cries:
I gona need me Jezzail after all :P

Unwise
20-09-2006, 01:48
I play Skaven...and Dwarf...TE HELL WHIT FRENZIED CAVARLY T_T:cries: :cries:
I gona need me Jezzail after all :P

Fortunetly for you, most armies with frenzy do not have much to stop your nasty warmachines. Which will be a welcome change for your skaven since your warmachines are destined to die in the first turn in this edition.

fubukii
20-09-2006, 05:57
Why do you say, that warmachiners are destined to die, As far as i know they havent changed much unless i am over looking something that makes the only skaven warmachine weaker (WLC)

Neknoh
20-09-2006, 06:37
Yeah, because Chaos needs an extra advantage over the other armies!:rolleyes:

The fact that they use great weapons for their Knights is the only thing that compensates for how sick the damn things actually are by making them strike last after the first round if they charged and you're still there.

I despise chaos armies, because they encourage bad generalship, bad selection, and beardy combinations.

Chaos has long been favoured by GW powers that be, hence the fact that chosen warrriors net out at about 12 points cheaper than they should be! :cheese:

Their marks can be taken in addition to Magical allowances, and can totally unbalance the game. The mark of Chaos undivided is free, and allows a reroll to failed psychology, which can be given to all units and characters! :cheese:

For an Empire army to have the equivalent ability, it takes a battle standard bearer with a 100 point banner! :wtf:

Now if that isn't favouritism, I don't know what is.

Right, that's my rant over, I'll get off my soap box.

Vince.

Very interesting view on Chaos, but I must say, your opponent is pulling your leg there.

Chaos Knights does NOT have Greatweapons.

Marauders, Marauder Horsemen, warhounds, Beastherds, Centigors, Chaos Trolls and Chaos Ogres can NOT benefit from Marks of Chaos.

Chaos Warriors are often seen as coming out at 2 pts more than they should cost.

End of rant-response

vinush
20-09-2006, 06:46
Oops, my bad.

They're just strength 5 on their own, with a hose with strength 4.

As to the cost of a Chaos Lord, the point I was making was that he gets to reroll psychology for free, along with the units that really count (Chaos warriors and knights). I didn't comment on the cost of the marks, other than the fact that you can give a mark to a character as well as the maximum points of magic items they are allowed.

My main beef with this is as a HE player I cannot give my mage any magic items if I take channeller and seer, or my hero can't have any magical armour if I give him the swordmaster ability, as all of the HE special powers come from magic allowances.

Vince

Frankly
20-09-2006, 08:56
For an Empire army to have the equivalent ability, it takes a battle standard bearer with a 100 point banner! :wtf:



They get 5pts rank and file with detachment and handgunners for 8pts ....

....50 gunners and 180 free company can use that 100pt banner, its well worth it.



Your right GWs are 6th Ed, oops. looks like Hallerds it is then.

warlord hack'a
20-09-2006, 11:23
anyone using halberds on horses I will laugh at, they were never and will never be cavalry weapons, if that would have been why did they not simply make an axe blade to a lance? You charge in, drop your long pole weapon (lance or spear) and draw your sword or axe, that's how it went.

MisterHeavy
20-09-2006, 12:55
While there are plenty of chaos players at my store, nobody playes Khorne any more. Personally I think it was a combination of two things. 1) Straight Khonre armies can get a bit booring to general. As players get more experience, many (though certainly not all) want the opportunity to try shooting and magic, and so collect another army. 2) Woodelves. Being able to ignore movement penalties in forests is an enormous advantage when you get to decide when and where your opponent charges. Add Tree Singing on top of that, and you're got serious trouble.

Personally, I'm not terribly woried about frenzy in 7th (not particularly more so than 6th anyway). It makes certain units better, particularly against low-mobility armies, but overall I still think the drawbacks cover the benefits of frenzied units.

warlord hack'a
20-09-2006, 15:03
agree and no longer the woodies have the loen right to move through forests fast, here come their natural enemies, in the battle for skull pass box even so the battlefield will be flooded by them!

vinush
20-09-2006, 17:28
[QUOTE=Frankly;954559]They get 5pts rank and file with detachment and handgunners for 8pts ....

....50 gunners and 180 free company can use that 100pt banner, its well worth it.
[QUOTE]

Except, free company can't take detachments.:o

And against anything with any sort of shooting your free company dies in droves with their toughness 3 and no armour. Okay, so they can reroll their failed panic checks, but that doesn't make up for the horrendous casualties you'll sustain.

If you're luck, your 180 free company will have survived in sufficient numbers to be effective.

Also, I'd love to see anyone who can remain sane enough to play after having painted 230 miniatures for their army... :D

Chris_Tzeentch
20-09-2006, 22:14
I charged a unit of normal chaos Khorne Cavalry against a unit of Saurus Temple Guard with a 4th Edition Slann Mage Priest in, and destroyed them all in two turns. Awesome! I think as most units are going to have a five wide frontage, the optimum size for frenzied cavalry is probably 7 wide. 28 Attacks!!!

Chris_Tzeentch
20-09-2006, 22:15
The sudden explosion in Night Goblins units could be a pain for frenzied cavalry, as a clever opponent will have our raging psychopaths running through fanatics and getting clobbered.

Crazy Harborc
20-09-2006, 23:14
Skirmishers are perfect for drawing out fanatics. Um, unless you are playing me.:D Can you get some into the NGs face (8" away) while they are still on their side of the board? That will increase the chances that the fanatics will "find" a friendly unit or two.

patataman
21-09-2006, 01:22
Fortunetly for you, most armies with frenzy do not have much to stop your nasty warmachines. Which will be a welcome change for your skaven since your warmachines are destined to die in the first turn in this edition.

I play only heavy infantery Skaven, no WLC and no ratlingun xD
And dwarf only a organ a 2 quarrellers and a lot of infantery *-* xD

Frankly
21-09-2006, 08:14
Also, I'd love to see anyone who can remain sane enough to play after having painted 230 miniatures for their army... :D

Actually thats my army ...

patataman
21-09-2006, 12:19
[QUOTE=Frankly;954559]They get 5pts rank and file with detachment and handgunners for 8pts ....

....50 gunners and 180 free company can use that 100pt banner, its well worth it.
[QUOTE]

Except, free company can't take detachments.:o

And against anything with any sort of shooting your free company dies in droves with their toughness 3 and no armour. Okay, so they can reroll their failed panic checks, but that doesn't make up for the horrendous casualties you'll sustain.

If you're luck, your 180 free company will have survived in sufficient numbers to be effective.

Also, I'd love to see anyone who can remain sane enough to play after having painted 230 miniatures for their army... :D

i have onli 210 in a 2k army but is the same xD

Chris_Tzeentch
23-09-2006, 08:43
I used a unit of 7 Khorne Normal Cavalry to charge a unit of 16 Saurus Temple Guard with a 4th Generation frog in the unit. They caused 12 casualties, and the unit fled directly into my Furies, who were poised ready for the overrun. I quite like this crossfire rule!

Frankly
24-09-2006, 10:18
I quite like this crossfire rule!

Same.

I'm thinking of this

Beast of Chaos Lord(Ambushing).

herds(ambushing)

chaos hounds(ambushing and meat shields)

Chariots

4 x khorne cavalry.

The whole idea is to set up "cross fire" situations.

I have to proxy it some more before taking on a new army I think.

Dragon of the Pants
25-09-2006, 04:19
I'd like to try this out with a unit of Khorne Knights, but currently my lists includes Archaon, which means my unit of knights have to be undivided. v.v